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DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?

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Trevor Gilchrist
DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 6:44:39 am

Hi.

So just prepping the edit of a music video shot solely on Red Epic by a DP who not only "forgot" to record a reference audio track for syncing(!), but also shot (over cranked) the entire day at 59.94fps without telling anybody.

Now, this gives us stunning slomo in our 23.98 timeline, and looks filmic and gorgeous at the full 4K res.
All footage has been ingested; corrected using Red raw controls and then proxied for edit.

Trouble is, just about everything we NEED to edit should actually be playing back at "normal" speed, with slomo used for a few seconds here and there in the 3.5min piece.

Is my only choice to retime (in this case; speed up) all the footage by 250% to force it to play back as if shot 1:1?

Or should I be conforming to 29.97 then adding pulldown to get to 23.98?

What a nightmare.

I've obviously tested it and simple speeding up works, timing wise, but the effect is pretty harsh — verging on strobe-like — and with none of the original filmic, wide open, cinematic loveliness. It just looks like "video" now.

Is there a better way? Another technique, for making slomo NOT slomo?
I'm running a retime using optical flow test overnight, but the render times are prohibitive and I'm pretty sure that only makes a difference when you're trying to MAKE slomo... not remove it.

Any and all help much appreciated.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 2:52:28 pm

Try running a shot through compressor and speed up the footage 250% (these settings are in the frame control tab).

I'd try the fast, good, and best settings. This will sweep dropping frames, blending frames, and optical flow.

Fast might work in this case.

Alternatively, you could turn off the optical flow in fcpx. You might not need it in this case as you need to drop frames, not make new ones. I'd stay away from frame blending.

You could also look in to plugins to help you here, like Twixtor.

No matter what, settle in for some render times and experimentation.

Jeremy


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Andy Neil
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 3:39:30 pm

[Trevor Gilchrist] "Or should I be conforming to 29.97 then adding pulldown to get to 23.98?"


Is there a reason why you need to be in 23.98? Because I'd be tempted to just conform to 29.97 because the math is simpler.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Trevor Gilchrist
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 5:29:03 pm

Thanks Andy,
Only because the project was started as such and uses a great deal of ProRes 422 transcoded from the 5D. In fact, it's the contrast to the beautiful filmic look of the 5D footage that is the most jarring.

Wish we'd done the whole thing on those...


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Bret Williams
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 5:30:36 pm

Use a 29.97i sequence. The 24p will have proper pulldown added by FCP X, and the 60p RED should get interlaced by FCP X. Although I haven't tested the latter. Then when you're done you have a nice broadcast master, but you'll need to deinterlace for web.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 8:09:03 pm

But the footage is already 23.976, just over cranked.

It's not 60p footage in the traditional sense. You can speed up the footage 2.5 times and it will be "the same as" 60p, but the footage is stamped as 24.

I'm sorry, but there's not going to be an easy way to fix this. What's captured is captured. Shutter speed and Hz are different when shooting 60 vs 24. The characteristics of the footage are baked in.

You are going to have to fiddle around until you find a recipe you like, and that could vary from shot to shot depending on the footage.

Your DP should pay for Twixtor, or its time to get creative with the edit.

Did you run a shot through Compressor yet with different settings?


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Trevor Gilchrist
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 11:23:15 pm

Thanks Bret, thanks Jeremy.
Yes, I'm starting to understand the "baked in-ness" of it all now.
I'm so angry at the DP, but a reshoot is impossible.
So the look will be the look, I guess.

I haven't tried the Compressor approach, simply because I know that processing 110, 5K clips, up to 12mins each, will send me a month over my deadline...

Many thanksfor your help.

live n learn, right?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 7, 2013 at 11:59:29 pm

You should try to process one clip and see if you like it.

Process it a couple of different ways.

Then, do the edit with the proxy material.

Upon your conform back to the high res material, you will only process the footage in the edit with your chosen recipe, not every frame of raw material.


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Trevor Gilchrist
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 8, 2013 at 12:18:45 am

Very wise.
I will try, then report findings back here in case it's of use to someone, similarly scuppered, in the future.

Thanks everyone for the help and education thus far. This is my first RED project, but it won't be my last.


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Trevor Gilchrist
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 8, 2013 at 12:39:16 am

So, here's a conundrum then (if anyone still has the patience to help me understand...)

1. The footage baked at 59.94 is RED Raw and therefore can't be opened directly in Compressor.
2. The footage is 4800 x 2700 frame size, which is not a format I've seen before and not one offered as a project size in FCPX, so I can't "Share" to Compressor from the timeline (which would have to be my future workflow, surely?)
3. The proxies that FCPX creates are 50% size of the original, so 2400 x 1350 (some "proxy, huh")

I can only assume I have to do a Compressor test using the Proxy, though that can't give me any sort of accurate representation or hope of a useable future workflow.

Thank you Mr "DP"


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 8, 2013 at 12:49:02 am

You van always take a proxy file directly to compressor from the Event folder > Transcoded Media.

This is only a test to see if you can gain back some semblance of normal.

You can also export one full ProRes clip out of RedCineX to test.


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Bret Williams
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 8, 2013 at 6:44:21 am

Ok. So drop it in a 29.97i and speed it up 250%. Shouldn't it then take it back to the native 59.94 and interlace it?


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Oliver Peters
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 8, 2013 at 12:45:20 am

[Trevor Gilchrist] "Is my only choice to retime (in this case; speed up) all the footage by 250% to force it to play back as if shot 1:1?"

Yes, this is the one and only correct thing to do. You should not be editing at 29.97. The media has a timebase of 23.98 so that is the "normal" time if you want to maintain sync to audio. However, the issue you will find is that motion blur will look too crisp compared with how it would look had it be shot at 23.98. Optimize first from RED and then edit with the optimized or proxy files.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Don Smith
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 8, 2013 at 11:52:21 am

Two things. Open the Red footage in its own timeline from the Event Library. That will create a timeline the same size as the footage. Maybe you can go to Compressor from there.

Also, and this is a shot in the dark, lay the footage in your timeline and highlight it, then go to the Retime icon and select Conform Speed and see what happens. Just throwing that out there. Haven't tried it myself.

Don Smith
NewsVideo.com

NewsVideo.com


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Bret Williams
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 9, 2013 at 2:09:42 pm

So your footage is natively 60 frames per second, and was overcranked and recorded as 24, right? IOW, it was conformed to 24p. To me, and I just tested it on some 60p footage by conforming to 24 then speeding up, the easiest thing is to work in a 29.97i timeline in X. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. And it won't fix the "look" of the footage. Just make it technically feasible.

Put some of your correct 24p footage in the 29.97i timeline and you'll see X adds the pulldown correctly. (Not like FCP 7 which simply repeates every 4th frame). X gives proper 3:2 interlaced pulldown. Now, drop in the footage that was shot 59.94 and recorded as 24p. You'll simply need to speed this up to 250%. It's too bad you can't dial in a particular speed like 7. But you can drag the retime effect to get roughly the speed you want, but in this case it has to be exactly 250%. What you can do is choose conform in the retime menu and that will give you 125% exactly. Then, trim the clip back to a nice round number like 10 seconds. Then drag the retime effect back until it says the clip is exactly 5 seconds. The retime effect should read 250% speed. Now that you have a clip at 250%, you can copy and paste the effect to all clips in the timeline that require it. No need to repeat the above process.

To confirm that it is properly interlaced simply put the viewer at 100% and turn on "show both fields" in the settings menu at the upper rt of the viewer. As you step through each frame you'll see that every frame is interlaced and the native speed should be restored. But as Oliver pointed out, this was likely shot with a 1/120th shutter instead of 1/50th and motion blur is probably nonexistent and looks different from the 24p footage. Just depends on the type of footage if they mix and match. With a music video you can do some creative stuff so possibly doesn't matter. You can also step through your properly shot 24p footage and you'll see what appears as progressive, progressive, progressive, interlaced, interlaced.

The obvious problem in the end is that you'll have an interlaced product. If you wanted a 24p product across the board then well... But the 24p footage will still look 24p with pulldown added. It's just the 59.94 stuff that's going to look super interlaced TV smooth. But that's where you have to get creative I guess. When it's all said and done you'll have to deinterlace for web versions.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 9, 2013 at 4:37:10 pm

[Bret Williams] " To me, and I just tested it on some 60p footage by conforming to 24 then speeding up, the easiest thing is to work in a 29.97i timeline in X. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. And it won't fix the "look" of the footage. Just make it technically feasible."

It's not that this is wrong, there are, in my opinion, better ways to go than interlacing. If the footage was normal motion, then yes, you can make 60i footage from 60p, but since this footage is not true 60p, rather overcranked 24p footage, there's a difference.

Simply speeding up to 250%, leaving the motion set to "Normal" looks pretty good with the overcranked footage I have here, all things considered.

At this point, if you find it necessary, start to mess with Twixtor or optical flow, and even start to combine ReelSmart Motion Blur if you want to try and get things together with motion blur, but all of this is dependent on the original footage. Optical Flow/Twixtor can sometimes cause more issues rather than alleviate them.

Trevor, is it possible for you to post 3 or 4 seconds of footage? Preferably something with motion in it? A 1080 or 720 ProRes movie is fine.

I can also post tests for you, they aren't from Red, but rather Sony F55.


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Bret Williams
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 9, 2013 at 5:51:05 pm

Definitely if you need a 24p output give that a shot. Just seems like dropping every other frame and then some would leave a strange cadence. I'm very sensitive to that stuttery 24p look, especially when shot at too high a shutter. Even at the movie theater pans driver me crazy sometimes when they're not super slow. I tend to notice the stutter even on lips in an interview at times. Interlacing is not all bad! :)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 9, 2013 at 7:22:00 pm

[Bret Williams] "Definitely if you need a 24p output give that a shot. Just seems like dropping every other frame and then some would leave a strange cadence. I'm very sensitive to that stuttery 24p look, especially when shot at too high a shutter. Even at the movie theater pans driver me crazy sometimes when they're not super slow. I tend to notice the stutter even on lips in an interview at times. Interlacing is not all bad! :)"

I have aversions to interlacing as you do to 24p. To each their own! ;P :-D

Here are some tests. These are best watched on an external monitor through a broadcast device (AJA, etc).

I included a decently motion heavy shot (subject and camera movement) with tight patterns.

Here's the source (60 over 24p):

http://madayproductions.com/da_cow/Source_24p.mov.zip



Here's the source sped up 2.5 times in a 24p timeline with Quality set to "normal":

http://madayproductions.com/da_cow/Source_250_24p.mov.zip



Here's the source sped up 2.5 times in a 60i timeline with Quality set to "normal":

http://madayproductions.com/da_cow/Source_250_60i.mov.zip



And the source set to 40% duration in Compressor with Rate Conversion set to Best:

http://madayproductions.com/da_cow/Source_250_Compressor_24p.mov.zip



Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 2:25:12 am

It's actually been a few years since I edited anything interlaced. The majority being 24p with 30p a close second. If I have to integrate interlaced material, I've been pretty happy with X's built in deinterlacing.


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Eric Santiago
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 12:51:43 pm

Im not sure if it was mentioned here but cant you export from RCXPro to 23.976?
Im a few hours from a computer to test myself.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 3:45:18 pm

[Eric Santiago] "Im not sure if it was mentioned here but cant you export from RCXPro to 23.976?
Im a few hours from a computer to test myself."


The footage is already 23.976, it's just overcranked.


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Eric Santiago
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 12, 2013 at 5:49:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The footage is already 23.976, it's just overcranked."

Oops I meant from 23.976 to 29.97 :)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: DP shot all RED footage at 59.94. I need normal speed playback. Best practice?
on Sep 10, 2013 at 3:48:56 pm

[Bret Williams] "It's actually been a few years since I edited anything interlaced. The majority being 24p with 30p a close second. If I have to integrate interlaced material, I've been pretty happy with X's built in deinterlacing."

Yeah, but interlacing a progressive source just to deinterlace it is not a best practice, at least in my silly opinion.

Even with interlacing, the fields won't be perfect. You will have to drop the same number of fields to get to 24p.

FCPX, in my opinion, and I am very aware of cadence issues as I have to be, does a really good job of dealing with this. Compressor is unnecessary, really, as you have very similar controls within FCPX. You don't have the "better" setting in FCPX like you do Compressor, though, and I use "Better" a lot.

Twixtor would be worth checking out, and the DP should pay for it.

Jeremy


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