FORUMS: list search recent posts

Can two projects have the same name?

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Craig Alan
Can two projects have the same name?
on Jul 26, 2013 at 6:55:20 pm

Can two projects have the same name?

Does FC store the history of projects somewhere even if the original events and projects are not mounted?

If you mounted a drive that had a project named the same as one previously edited on an unmounted drive would FC still be referencing the older edit?

------------------------------

If two different projects are sharing the same Events are there any gotchas?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

Craig Alan
tested it
on Jul 26, 2013 at 8:58:35 pm

I made a dupe of a sparse image containing a project and event folder, and all media. I made a simple change in the event browser and on the timeline. I quit FC and then unmounted the dupe and mounted the original. Changes were not made, no off line files found etc.

I guess the DVD, I was using to make a fresh copy of a sparse image that was on it, had already been modified. Don't remember doing this. But one thing I have noticed is that when you copy a sparse image even when you rename it it uses the original name in many places. This can lead to the wrong image being modified.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: tested it
on Jul 26, 2013 at 10:27:51 pm

I understand that people are now making sparse images of all manner of folder arrays and projects and events and whatnot - but I still find them most fundamentally useful as Field Recording Card Images.

As such, the structure of the original files should never change, so any of a number of clone copies or an original sparse bundle will work exactly the same when it's present to FCP-X. It's this property of being able to use drive clones as if they were the originals that dives my use of them.

Not using them as growing and shrinking repositories of works in progress. I think this use drives the issue of having multiple versions of the same Sparse Bundle which would add a lot of complexity to normal backup systems.

I know others want to do otherwise and that keeping "packaged" content in network accessible locations is something collaborative editors want and need to do. But for many editors, making things more complex is not always the best way to organize things.

Just thought I'd toss that out for those who have simpler needs and haven't explored using sparse bundles in their workflow.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index


Craig Alan
Re: tested it
on Jul 26, 2013 at 11:42:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "I know others want to do otherwise and that keeping "packaged" content in network accessible locations is something collaborative editors want and need to do. "

Interesting.

There are three things going on here for me. The first is that a training book I got packaged their lesson plans in a sparse image. Turns out they were not all loading after a certain update of FCP X. Company gave me a link for update and problem solved.

The second is I like creating them for projects (the old use of the word) and mounting them so that I have the project and event folders and folders with original media stored in them, labeled with the project name. I do not want multiple copies of them other than for back up and to archive after finishing. And the ability to easily transport them to other computers or even other editors.

The third need is to set up a FC lab in which students cannot see or alter other students work yet the system can be easily managed.
Sparse images seem to do the trick.
If the student account has a simple finder with permissions given for needed apps and websites then they can not even mount any sparse image never mind change its contents.
As an admin with remote desktop, I need only to unmount and mount the right image and hopefully this does the trick.
No passwords needed.
No dozens of user accounts on each computer, etc.
That's my plan so far, but I have not tested it on the computers we will be using. I have tried it on my Mac Pro using an internal two drive raid for the media drive. I created a Simple Finder account and mounted a sparse image. I then changed to the student account which under simple finder can open FC. The mounted image was there with its media and projects. When you went to file import the media drive could be seen but the sparse images were grayed out.
I don't see any flaws in this plan, but time will tell or if you do please speak up.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: tested it
on Jul 27, 2013 at 12:12:08 am

[Craig Alan] "I don't see any flaws in this plan, but time will tell or if you do please speak up."

The only issue I see is when a student decides to take their project from school to home to work on it there. The potential is that he or she will end up with TWO versions - the one on the school server and the one on the students thumb drive or portable which is now more current. So if that happens, you might need a strategy for getting the most current version and the school drive version synced up.

This is where multiple versions of sparse bundles kinda falls apart in my thinking. How do you insure that everyone's working on the same one, if they are disconnected from any centralized system and available to multiple edit sessions?

This is primarily why as a solo editor, I use bundles for my field cards, NOT for project files. In X, the project and event files (IF they don't have media copied into to them) are very small and easy to backup and version. And if the can be linked to sparse bundles of FOOTAGE that stays consistent - then there's never a problem.

Again, this works great for the individual editor - but does not address the needs of team editing.

I know many are hoping that Apple has a long range strategy for that - maybe events and projects optionally on a LAN or in the Cloud and sparse bundle clones of footage that can be locally mounted by every editor that needs them?

Network editing is out of my depth.

And for classroom use, I know that's precisely what you need.

Keep your fingers crossed that Apple understands this.

I will say that they've shown a lot of support for editing in education lately. That Tucson gig I did proctoring FCP-X certification exams for Teachers had a classroom full of laptops running X provided directly by Apple. So they certainly "get" that the education market is important.

We'll see.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Craig Alan
Re: tested it
on Jul 27, 2013 at 1:04:25 am

Thanks Bill. I don't see too many students at my school with a set up at home that would provide this option. Mostly they want copies of finished projects.

But I can see the need to bring a project from the lab to the studio where we'll have 5 stations set up and I will be around after school for shoots. My understanding about how to do this is to just copy over the project folder from whichever computer was the last edit. (Render folder optional). As long as the original media remains the same all should be ok. Even new metadata in the event browser I think is stored in the project folder. You will have to relink media files since FC needs to be directed to a different media drive.

As an alternative we could clone the sparse image and then clone it back.
So what percentage of the teacher's past the exam?
When I got my FCP 6 certification, I think only 3-4 of us out of a class of 40 or so pass.
At least on first try.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index


Andreas Kiel
Re: tested it
on Jul 27, 2013 at 6:11:04 am

Craig,

I'm still not sure what you are trying to do.
Sound like collaborative but not too collaborative.

Some things upfront.
You can have any amount of projects with the same name, but they need to have a different ID when some or all should be visible.
While projects keep their base name events don't have a base name.

So having a class room situation is a bit complicated.
You may start with a sparse bundle or volume which only contains the media and is read only.
Next create a "personal" sparse bundle or better a script to create a sparse bundle which contains an XML to open in FCPX. The script should supply a UID for the project.
Then every student will have his/her own Event/Project sparse bundle.
From there they can work with that without touching the original media, always having the same project name but a different ID. The project file even can be renamed but as said above the original name is always stored in the project file. So it's trackable.
Once a student wants to take the project home he/she can use this sparse bundle as long he/she has access to the personal sparse bundle on the server and the media.

Just some thoughts

-Andreas

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby
become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will
also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


Return to posts index

Craig Alan
Re: tested it
on Jul 27, 2013 at 7:09:26 am

Thanks

[Andreas Kiel] "You may start with a sparse bundle or volume which only contains the media and is read only."

I can see this coming in handy when we are going through editing lessons and all students are using the same media. Would the media be bullet proof in terms of no one student could trash it, move it, change it?

I don't see that option in disk utility. Do I just create a sparse bundle image and set its permissions for 'read only' in get info?

[Andreas Kiel] "Next create a "personal" sparse bundle or better a script to create a sparse bundle which contains an XML to open in FCPX. The script should supply a UID for the project.
Then every student will have his/her own Event/Project sparse bundle."


I have no clue how to write a script.

For the most part each student will not be sharing media but working on different projects. This is a production class not just an editing class. So I would want each student to have their own sparse bundle image which would include unique media and the final cut pro folders.

The media needs to be private - other students should not have access to it period. Like I said, the simple finder seems to provide this. I would need to launch their sparse images but by so doing it seems I can skip having a ton of passwords and user accounts.

An alternative plan is to create a user account for each student and put the home folders on the media drive. That way, by default, FC folders are kept in the movie folder on the external drive and students could only access their home folder. But I think this is way harder to set up and manage.

Because the computers were bought in small batches and no specifics about getting help networking them, each computer was purchased with an external raid. Each computer may be shared with as many as 18 other students. Now there has been some talk of a network consultant. But I believe stuff when it happens and I have no way of knowing if the person chosen would have any experience with FC or editing.

I got a copy of Apple remote desktop and I believe there will be both ethernet and wireless routing in the class.

From what I see in simple finder I would only need one student account. It just seems like very little can be touched in this type of account yet still allow you to use FC and work with any mounted drives. They could also save their other documents to a folder in their sparse image. If a student needs to move to a new computer I could just copy that image over and I'd be all set. There are gotchas though. Many apps have other programs that must be launched with them. But once I have one master student account I could clone it to the other computers. Plus that's just a parental control check list.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: tested it
on Jul 27, 2013 at 8:03:43 am

[Andreas Kiel] "Just some thoughts

-Andreas
"


Andreas,

Thanks for this explanation. I'm getting this question from educators more and more as they want to deploy X in classroom situations. The big issue for them is that they don't want Student B to have ANY access to the work files of Student A and vice versa.

The potential in a classroom for one student to go in and mess with anothers work is unacceptable.

So teachers are trying to figure out how to let an individual classroom computer grant and/or deny access between workstations on the classroom LAN to assets on the server via simple, managable login processes that can be managed by the teacher.

It seems NOT to be a trivial process the way X works right now.

This has helped me understand things a bit better.

So I appreciate your thoughts as always.

(BTW, I still find your SCDI utility far and away my most used X tool. Thanks so much for the effort you put into making and sharing it!)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index


Craig Alan
Re: tested it
on Jul 27, 2013 at 6:31:04 pm

So is there a way to do it easily on a LAN? I'm worried that setting permissions on all mounted images could be difficult? Plus what if the server goes down? Would LAN management work pretty much the same as external hard drive/raid management? As you can tell I have no experience with setting up net- work. And I know from labs I've seen throughout the school that they are often a mess. IT sets things up and teachers have no idea how to maintain them and then they are on a waiting list for them to fix something. Further they do not come from an editing background. And FC has its own set of rules.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: tested it
on Jul 27, 2013 at 7:38:01 pm

[Craig Alan] "So is there a way to do it easily on a LAN? I'm worried that setting permissions on all mounted images could be difficult? Plus what if the server goes down? Would LAN management work pretty much the same as external hard drive/raid management? As you can tell I have no experience with setting up net- work. And I know from labs I've seen throughout the school that they are often a mess. IT sets things up and teachers have no idea how to maintain them and then they are on a waiting list for them to fix something. Further they do not come from an editing background. And FC has its own set of rules."

This is precistly why I think that centralized storage of student work via FCP-X will always be a tricky deal.

In a more perfect world, it would be nice you could just give each student a thumb drive on a lanyard and have them store their individual "in progress" project and even on that. The teacher could have the kids mirror a copy to the server at the end of class so there would be a backup if the lanyard got lost or taken home for additional work, and disappeared there - but X doesn't like thumb drives so that's out.

You could do similar with cheap FW800 hard drives for each class member, but that's a capital budget mess in a school setting.

It's a challenge.

I can see the X software residing on the school server, and each students project/event work on an individual external source - but without a runtime version of X, the kids couldn't do homework without buying the program.

Actually, now that I think about it, if they ever do succeed in making X "cloud based" that would ROCK for eduction, since the school could probably give registered students limited access to the software via the cloud and have their projects be transportable.

That would maybe be ideal for a classroom situation.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: tested it
on Jul 27, 2013 at 7:54:48 am

[Craig Alan] "As an alternative we could clone the sparse image and then clone it back.
So what percentage of the teacher's past the exam?
When I got my FCP 6 certification, I think only 3-4 of us out of a class of 40 or so pass.
At least on first try."


Better than that I think, but not by a lot.

I didn't actually ask the group who had passed it because I was at the front of the room so I couldn't see the students screens as they finished and got their pass/fail screens.

Out of 16 seats, I know that we had 2 or 3 who finished up really early and they were the guys I talked to during the training portion who were the most familiar with X and they pretty much passed without major problems. Then there was a lag and it seemed that the next group in the middle had more mixed results. I'd guess that less than half of the middle group passed just based on exit smiles. Maybe three out of that five or six? Most of the others took over an hour at least one of them also passed because I heard a whoop of joy! At the end of 90 minutes, one lady was still struggling. So I'd estimate the pass rate to be 30-40%. This was after an intense 3 days of intense 8 hour a day classroom study with a great instructor.

Everyone who uses X knows that it's not a simple program to learn. And the certification exam is pretty comprehensive. The questions are multi-faceted and you really have to know the program pretty darn well to achieve the 80% pass score.

The couple of students who breezed it had both been editing on the program for nearly a year, so they were way ahead of the majority of the class who were much less familiar with X coming in. The teachers who tried started from scratch and tried to to learn in well enough in just the 3 intensive days I think were largely unsuccessful, tho some of them might have done it.

Overall, I'd say that Apple certification in X is NOT a trivial matter. You'll be expected to know the software pretty deeply and be able to grasp many of the nuances of how it works. It's certainly NOT a "know a good chunk of the material and then figure out the rest from the test question phrasing" type of test at ALL.

It's a good deal more rigorous than that.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index


Andreas Kiel
Re: tested it
on Jul 28, 2013 at 11:42:34 am

Craig,

I think I understand better now.
Tell me if I'm wrong with my thoughts.

You want to have several computers with finally two users (there is always the admin).
The "student account" will have limited access.
With FCPX (and other apps) you will run into some kind of problems. The "whatever student" will always have access to his account and can change things there, so many students can change many things in the "student account" since the is only one "student account".

The way FCPX works you can create events/projects in this "student account" and you can create "private" password protected sparse bundles. BUT that won't prevent those users to mess up the ~/Movies folder.
I haven't tried to set parental controls to that folder -- so I'm not really sure.

The way FCPX works will make things really complicated if you want to have a "unified user" in a kind of classroom network and leaving both freedom and privacy to all of them.
Look at the ~/Library everybody can change the settings with his account. The action to prevent that will be complicated. Same with the material and templates which might be used.

Finally you need a user organization -- which obviously is not that thing you want.

- Andreas

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby
become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will
also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


Return to posts index

Craig Alan
Re: tested it
on Jul 28, 2013 at 6:41:22 pm

Andreas

All true. But take a look at 'simple finder'. This is an option when setting up a new user account. In simple finder you do not have the ability to mess with the system. You can open apps that are assigned to the account. You can certainly open any documents that you can see with an app's File>open window. But you cannot mount sparse images. Therefore if all media and projects and files and other student documents are kept in a sparse image (one per user) and if I mount and unmount these sparse images, I think it does the trick. FC projects will auto be saved to the open sparse image. A final draft or word doc would have to be manually saved to the user's sparse image or be open to anyone one using that account. So they need to save their work properly outside of FC. But so far I think its the best option. But I could be overlooking something.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

Andreas Kiel
Re: tested it
on Jul 30, 2013 at 10:17:19 am

Craig,

I just gave it a try with "Simple Finder".
One thing you should take care of is to have the "master system" as simple and clean as possible. One machine I tried had a lot of apps installed which are doing stuff in the background. That caused an endless loop of error messages at log in.

Anyway - It somehow works and probably meets your needs best.
But as you said there is the need for a lot of discipline from the students.
An option could be to create a "public" app with allows to create sparse bundles with limited size, a fixed path to the Documents folder and password protection - this bundle also could have a default folder/file setup**.
This way every student can have a "personal virtual disk" for even several projects (in the old sense of word). But it still needs a lot of discipline from the students since they all use the same account.

-Andreas

**)
P.S.

About this non existing app: it would create a sparse bundle with name and password, it won't allow to overwrite existing ones (that's good and a problem same time). When the bundle is created it will create a base folder structure once the user have entered an Event/Project name. A new empty Event with a unique ID will be created and a Project with unique ID linked to this Event as well (as said earlier you can have thousands of projects with the same name -- but they need a different ID).
Again -- it still needs a lot of discipline from the students since they all use the same account.

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby
become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will
also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


Return to posts index


Craig Alan
Re: tested it
on Jul 30, 2013 at 3:25:22 pm

[Andreas Kiel] "But as you said there is the need for a lot of discipline from the students"

Thanks Andreas. Not sure what you mean here. The whole idea is to make it more or less bullet proof.
Otherwise sure enough some of them will mess things up deliberately or by being careless.

The only discipline I see this needing is for them to save non-FCP document files to their personal sparse image "document folder". If they save elsewhere and in simple finder that means the account's document folder then their files are open to all other users.

For FC I will be saving the first event and project to the sparse image for each student which should set this as the default.

Do you see any other path they could take that would screw things up?

Really appreciate your help.

I could of course not only use simple finder but multiple use accounts as well. That way anything they save will be within that account. Just not sure how well OS X handles permissions on external drives. In the past its been spotty at best. I've visited many computer labs at schools using far less demanding software and they are all messed up. The more motivated students carry flash drives and that works for word files but will not cut it for projects events and gigs of media.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]