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Sean Ash
chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 18, 2013 at 8:30:34 pm

Hi,
I have some footage I am am editing in fcpx, shot on a 5d mk111 against plain backgrounds and the footage is showing quite noticeable banding and compression on the background. (on gradients/noise, noticeable when zooming etc). The background is meant to be flat in the final image, and wasn't lit with any grads or anything.

I transcoded the camera original H264 footage to pro res 444 using 5d to rgb set to full range. the banding is visible also on the camera originals but may be slightly worse in the transcodes.
It was far from ideal shooting conditions due to time restrictions, as the lights were quite low (photographic flash with modelling lights turned up full, no separate lighting on the BG, grabbing video between shots on a stills shoot), nevertheless I am quite surprised how noticeable it is, although I did expect some noise (shooting at 1600 and 2000 ISO). I shot with the Mk111 set on low compression/highest quality.
I have tried retranscoding the footage with the chroma set to broadcast range in 5d to RGB but it made no difference.
I have fcp x, magic bullet, AE, photoshop and resolve lite.
Anyone have any methods that may useful to go about reducing the chroma noise or smoothing it out?
It's just on the BG.
Last resort would be to hand mask the model and apply a blur but if anyone has any ideas how I could perhaps go about reducing it overall in the footage it could save me a bunch of time/ headaches ttrying to mask hair!
I can't seem to pull a good enough key, although I may have to try again and combine with masks
Sorry if this isn't the correct forum, It potentially could involve a few different bits of software and google has been no help so far!
Any tips or advice great appreciated!
thanks in advance,
Sean


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 18, 2013 at 9:50:43 pm

This is probably due to the nature of the DSLR footage, in combination with a higher ISO and not enough light. 5DtoRGB won't make that big of a difference.

Is it possible to post a second or two to see it?


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Sean Ash
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 18, 2013 at 10:06:12 pm

HI Thanks for the replies guys.
@ Jeremy. I agree. I don't think retranscoding will make any difference, For sure it's in the footage due to the ISO/ light at time of shooting. Just wondered if anyone had any issues with the luma range settings etc.
I guess I'm just going to have to "fix it on post" :-))
I've been doing some more research and I'm just about to try magic bullet denoiser 2, to see how that gets on.
If it's no good I'll try the neat video one for sure, thanks @Nikolas.
I can also try some chroma blur/ sharping the Luma in AE failing that. I seem to have options now at least after trawling the internet for a few more hours.
If all else fails I can maybe get access to a full version of resolve, which has pretty good noise reduction by all accounts and you can again separate the luma and keep sharp so not to soften everything.
Anyone had any experience of the noise reduction in resolve vs magic bullet or neat video?
I figure it might be better but not sure it would make that much difference when starting with DSLR footage. Nothing can do miracles I'm sure
Anyway, thanks again for the advice guys, here goes with magic bullet!


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Nikolas Bäurle
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 18, 2013 at 9:54:29 pm

Neat Video has a very good noise reducer

http://www.neatvideo.com/

"Always look on the bright side of life" - Monty Python



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T. Payton
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 19, 2013 at 4:23:44 am

Sean,

Could you post a small portion of a frame in full res showing the banding issues. Maybe one of us could figure out some solutions.

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Sean Ash
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 19, 2013 at 6:28:19 pm

Hi,
thanks for your reply.
you can download a cropped section of the noise here:
https://www.hightail.com/download/bWJyV28rZ2preEM1aWNUQw

I have tweaked the contrast to highlight the noise a bit more.

I kind of expected a noisy background, but I've never seen anything quite this pronounced before.
It's mainly in areas immediately surrounding the model. She looks absolutely fine and noiseless, but on certain movements she is surrounded by a jagged circular grad, that moves outwards from the main subject with certain movements.
I think it was obviously something that happened at the time of shooting but I don't think 1600 ISO is that high, particularly on a 5d mk111. It looks worse than DV in some parts (on the BG at least)
I shot on the lowest compression setting and was getting a perfectly fine exposure on her skin tones.
I noticed that some of the takes were quite long (over 10 minutes), as she was being directed by the photographers and I had to leave the cam running, so perhaps I'm thinking this may be a possible cause too. not sure if it would affect the compression rate whilst shooting to keep as one file, even though set to lowest setting.
It would have been better to have more light in general, and next time I will insist on lighting the background separately. Its slight variations in the lighting/focus (F2.8 most of the time) that have given the 5d a serious headache it seems.

I got the demo of neat video noise reduction and it cant' even find an area of the bg that is sees as uniform enough for a noise print, which seems crazy really.
I've also got magic bullet denoiser 11, so I'll give those two a go first.

I'm accepting the fact I am going to have to fix in post somehow, so if they don't work then I'll do it with some hand masking/ blurring in AE or resolve with a few tracked masks and a bit of chroma blur. .
Fortunately the edit is only about 40 secs and it's cut pretty quick so I think I can get round it.
fingers crossed. I am quite surprised though to be honest. I've shot with 5d's for 3 or 4 years and never seen this before (although it's obviously a far from ideal shooting situation.)
RED or alexa next time for sure, and lighting the BG separately even if the exposure on the model seems fine!
Sean


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T. Payton
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 19, 2013 at 8:48:16 pm

1600 ISO is going to introduce noise. Personally if I am shooting over 640 I know there is going to be noise.

However, from what I see the banding is happening because of the nature of H264 compression. Very difficult to avoid.

Frankly I would wait until the edit is done and then see if you can even notice the banding. Eyes are going to follow movement, not large areas of a single color.

The banding is mostly in the luma. I was able to key a copy of the clip on a layer then blur the background slightly and got rid of it the banding completely. Of course doing this on a still image is very different from video, but I'll bet you can make it work.



Let me know if I can help further.

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Sean Ash
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59:17 pm

That's the conclusion I am coming to. I can blur it slightly, and it's pretty much gone.
Might be a bit of hassle masking it butI can probably get away with blurring the blue channel and sharpening the luma a bit.
I'm sure you won't even see it in the edit.

If the edit ends up online anywhere I'll send you a link so you can see how it ended up, the girl looks pretty good anyway!
I'm sure it will be fine in the end, and fixing these little issues is what good post is all about after all!
Thank you so much for your help I really appreciate it.
I'm sure most people won't be watching the BG anyway, not with
http://gossip-juice.com/spotlight/andreea-diaconu-lands-a-role-with-victori...
in front of it, lol!
Have a nice weekend,
Sean :-)


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T. Payton
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 19, 2013 at 9:24:21 pm

That is very funny indeed. I literately did LOL when I saw that link.

It is funny to think that we spend a ton of time on elements that might be completely unnoticed. I watch alot of old TV. Six Million Dollar Man being my current favorite. Shot to shot color matching is non-existent. Sometimes they throw in stock that we would laugh at. I just watched an scene that was set at noon, but you could tell they just ran out of time, and shot it while it was dark with a big old light on the actors. They were able to pull it off because in 1974 the best someone would have was a 19" CRT viewing from at least 5 feet away. They knew their audience wouldn't event notice the bad film grain. Action and story was everything.

We have a much more difficult time now because everything is so clear in HD and on our computer displays. I'll bet however, that when your final product is scaled down to the web size (probably 720p) it's gonna look great.

(BTW. I'm not saying we don't strive for excellence in our craft, but we need to understand our audience, and the delivery medium before we spend a huge amount of time worrying about something that isn't going to be noticed.)

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Sean Ash
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 19, 2013 at 9:28:22 pm

I hear that! Content/context is king for sure.
I think if we needed people to notice all the trouble we go to make sure theres nothing to notice, we're in the wrong business!
Thanks again,
Sean :-)


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T. Payton
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 19, 2013 at 11:57:10 pm

Indeed. I saw these images just ONCE when I was 6 and I still remember it 38 years later. Powerful stuff.



FYI. That is Andrea the Giant from Princess Bride fame.



------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Sean Ash
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 19, 2013 at 11:58:24 pm

love the second shot, it's awesome. Andre the giant is certainly bigger than Andreea! lol!


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 20, 2013 at 10:37:01 pm

I'd recommend trying a key/mask and blur in Resolve light. I've got the full resolve and the NR isn't quite as good as Neat Videos. It seems to work much better in a "skin smoothing" context. It looks like your bg is very contrasted from your subject so play with the HSL qualifications, and build and track masks if necessary.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Sean Ash
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 20, 2013 at 10:40:35 pm

cool, will do thanks Nicoloas. The edit is so quick I doubt anyone will notice it that much anyway, hopefully!
Sean


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 20, 2013 at 10:44:26 pm

You will want to bake the Neat Video effect (if it's needed) into your clip before Resolve because Resolve will blur the noise, making it not match the noise print the footage natively had.

--------------------------
Avid MC, PPro CS6, FCP7 - wasting away on my SSD.
I just can't quit X.
--------------------------


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Sean Ash
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 20, 2013 at 10:45:37 pm

ok, great, thanks a lot for your help :-)


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T. Payton
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 29, 2013 at 12:06:08 am

Sean,

Check this out, PHYX Cleaner 2 plugin for fixing all sorts of stuff with footage. Look at "Deband" it might work for you.

http://www.phyxware.com/cleaner.html

- T.

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Sean Ash
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 29, 2013 at 12:16:58 am

Thanks, looks pretty good, I may well give it a go.
Sean :-)


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T. Payton
Re: chroma banding/noise issues on background 5d mk 11
on Jul 29, 2013 at 4:18:19 pm

A nice thing about FXFactory is that you can demo all the plugins. No risk trail.

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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