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auditioning within a compound clip workflow

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Craig Alan
auditioning within a compound clip workflow
on Jul 6, 2013 at 8:34:21 pm

Just to be clear I know I can break the compound apart and apply the new clip as an audition and re-compound. But I was looking for a way to audition within the compound clip so I can see the final composition.

I have a simple compound clip of a title over a still.

I want to try a new still in its place.

I select the compound clip in the timeline.
I select new still in browser.
I drag it over the compound clip.
I select "add to audition"
I press "Y".

I can easily select the old clip which plays with the title superimposed or the new clip

But the new clip does not play with the title.

I see the option to duplicate the old clip.

If I choose the new clip and click "done" it plays in the timeline without the title.

If I open audition again the old clip will play with the title.

What was the result of duplicating the old clip?

How do i get the new clip to play with the title?

If I double click the compound clip it opens in its own timeline.

I can replace the old clip with the new clip in this other timeline.

After rendering it will play with the title but when I open audition my old clip is no longer there.

The duplicate is now the new clip not the old one.

I undid this to get it back.

If in this new timeline I audition the new clip the title again does not play with the new clip.

I'm sure this is simple what am I doing wrong?

Also are any changes I make to a clip in the timeline saved somewhere in the browser?

For example, when I figure out how to replace my title still clip I want to use it as a still elsewhere.

I have cropped it and color corrected it. Where is this saved in the browser?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeff Kirkland
Re: auditioning within a compound clip workflow
on Jul 6, 2013 at 10:39:53 pm

If I follow ant you're doing then I''d suggest you've missed the point of a compound clip, and of auditioning.

A compound clip is essentially a grouped virtual clip. In your case it's an image with a title. As soon as you make that a compound clip FCPX treats it as a single clip. When you drag a new image over it in the timeline and add as a new audition you are replacing the virtual clip - both the image and title grouped together - with just the still, just as you've described.

Compound clips for the most part have a parent - child relationship. You can use that clip in many places but any changes you make to one instance will change all the others. So if you open a copy df that compound clip in the timeline & replace the image, you will make the same change in every other place you've used the clip. It's a global change.

To prevent a global change, you need to break the relationship between the copy compound clip and its parent with the "reference new parent" command.

There's plenty of good FCPX training out there that covers compound clips in depth, and the user manual does a good job of explaining how they work.

Or have I missed what you're trying to do?

Jeff Kirkland | Video Producer | Southern Creative Media | Melbourne Australia
http://www.southerncreative.com.au | G+: http://gplus.to/jeffkirkland | Twitter: @jeffkirkland


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Bill Davis
Re: auditioning within a compound clip workflow
on Jul 7, 2013 at 7:04:36 am

I agree.

To do what you actually want to do, just load the original background still into your Event and drop it on the Primary. Connect a title with Alpha background to it in a Secondary. Then import any alternate still you want to try out into your Event and drag it from there onto the original Still and select "replace from start."

Bingo, new title composite.

If you don't like the change you can undo. if you want to "audition" 10 stills feel free. If you like the original one best, it's still in your Event Browser to replace wherever you are.

No need to make this any more complex than that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Craig Alan
Thanks Bill and Jeff
on Jul 7, 2013 at 4:08:03 pm

I know I can do what I want by breaking apart the compound clip. When I open an audition window or open the compound clip in its own project window, since the compound clip appears broken apart, I thought that I could apply edits to it as if it were broken apart. The FCP manual under MANAGE COMPOUND CLIPS seems to say that's the case.

"The compound clip opens in a new Timeline view, with its contents ready for editing.”

If FCP was fully treating the compound clip as a single merged clip (like for example when you export a merged clip or an entire timeline as a self-contained QT file) then you would not see the clips in their own tracks with the connection points.

However, now that I know it is still treated as a single clip even in these expanded windows, I, as you pointed out, can just work the other way: break the compound apart and audition to my heart’s content. Not a big deal. I am using this particular project to learn the program better and therefore will "waste" time trying to understand how the different operations work rather than just finding the least resistant path that gets the job done.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Bill and Jeff
on Jul 7, 2013 at 4:40:16 pm

When you setup an Audition clip, it will hold any connected clips with the "parent" clip.

So, if you have a still with a connected title, that title is a part of that particular still. If you add a new still to the original still as an audition, you will "lose" the title until you bring back the original still.

There are a few ways around this.

-The most annoying is to add the title to every auditioned still. This way, every time you select the next clip in the Audition (Control-right arrow, or control-left arrow) the title will be there.

Another way is to use the tilde key. The tilde key keep connected clips in place while being able to modify the primary clip.

Select the Audition clip, and hold tilde, control-right arrow. Unfortunately, it seems that it's a little buggy and only tilde, control-right arrow works. Left arrow reverts to default and gets rid of the connected clip.

At least, that's the way it seems to work here.

Jeremy


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Craig Alan
Re: Thanks Bill and Jeff
on Jul 7, 2013 at 5:31:52 pm

Thank you Jeremy. Of course, "the old tilde control right arrow trick" to paraphrase Maxwell Smart. That was what I was asking for. And even if it does not work that smooth and might get enhanced in the next update, it suggests that Apple was intending to allow these type of edits within compound clips. I mean compound clips are really just a non-destructive way of visually organizing two or more connected clips and/or any group of clips.

One follow up question: If I modify a clip in the timeline (say color correct and crop) where is this stored in the browser? Is the original modified but non-destructively? Do I need to save the changes somehow? Generally I'd like access to both the original and the modified versions whether or not they are still in the timeline.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: Thanks Bill and Jeff
on Jul 7, 2013 at 7:23:51 pm

[Craig Alan] "One follow up question: If I modify a clip in the timeline (say color correct and crop) where is this stored in the browser? Is the original modified but non-destructively? Do I need to save the changes somehow? Generally I'd like access to both the original and the modified versions whether or not they are still in the timeline.
"


To understand this, you need to start thinking about the metadata flow in FCP-X. (Remember ALL editing in X is based on manipulating metadata. ALL of it.) Metadata comes in with clips on import. You typcially ADD metadata in the Event Browser. Some of all of which then joins the original and flows into the Project. Metadata flow is "one way" EXCEPT when you create a compound clip of some type (e.g. synchronized clip) - which expresses the new state of the clip back up to the Event Browser. Tha'ts why when you make a Compound Clip in your timeline, you get a copy in your Event Browser.

If you understand this, then it becomes apparent that WHERE you apply metadata changes determines whether the new metadata is "inherited" downstream.

Essentially, if you apply metadata in the Event Browser - it flows into all the subsequent Projects where you use those clips. But if you apply metadata changes IN your projects, it won't flow back upstream into the Event Browser.

So WHERE you make changes is important. The earlier in the data flow you do something (trim by setting an in and out point and giving that "trimmed clip state" a keyword to re-call it, for example) the more useful that decision is because you can re-use it across subsequent projects.

It's a fundamental truth in X that the more you learn to do useful things in the Event Browser, the more powerful X can become for you since you can make decisions once - and re-use them over and over again.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Craig Alan
Re: Thanks Bill and Jeff
on Jul 7, 2013 at 7:58:14 pm

Understood.

And I do consider the browser in X to be very powerful and a giant step forward.

I do go through my original clips in the browser and add keywords and make some rough cuts.

However I also make changes in the timeline. As the project sequence starts to evolve changes are needed.

Is there a way to save these changes in the browser. I understand this is not the default behavior.

Are the changes made in the browser to a clip non-destructive? Can I always open it in the inspector and return it to its original state?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Bill and Jeff
on Jul 7, 2013 at 8:43:00 pm

[Craig Alan] "Is there a way to save these changes in the browser. I understand this is not the default behavior. "

Not like you can with other NLEs where you can drag things from the timeline to the browser.

What do you need to do specifically?

[Craig Alan] "Are the changes made in the browser to a clip non-destructive? Can I always open it in the inspector and return it to its original state?"

Yes. Just reset the parameter or turn or off by hitting the little blue box that is present on most effects.


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Jeff Kirkland
Re: Thanks Bill and Jeff
on Jul 7, 2013 at 10:52:07 pm

The exception would be opening the browser clip in it's own timeline and doing something crazy like deleting the audio track rather than just switching it off. I'd expect you would need to re-import the clip to fix that.

Jeff Kirkland | Video Producer | Southern Creative Media | Melbourne Australia
http://www.southerncreative.com.au | G+: http://gplus.to/jeffkirkland | Twitter: @jeffkirkland


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Craig Alan
Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 4:19:22 pm

It's not like my default workflow.
But sometimes I make changes in the timeline to a clip and I'd like to save this version of the clip for future use either in the same project or a different one.
How can this be done?
I know to create a still from a clip
SHARE (export)>
save in "stills" folder in the project folder on my media drive
>import media from that project folder
>now it's in the browser.
Can I do something similar with clips?
Highlight clip in timeline> share to project file>import media from project file?
This really should be easier. My guess is next update FC will allow for timeline to browser copy even if the way it works is a background export import. I know these two sections of the program are two different databases.
But two way communication between browser and timeline is a NLE standard.
FC does this by default for compound clips but not for other clips, which might have been a lot more work to create, makes no sense.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 8:20:14 pm

[Craig Alan] "But sometimes I make changes in the timeline to a clip and I'd like to save this version of the clip for future use either in the same project or a different one. "

So why don't you? You could dupe the clip in a Project and make an Audition that will travel with the clip.

You could dupe the clip in the Browser, make the adjustment, and recall it at any time in the Browser.

[Craig Alan] "Can I do something similar with clips? "

SImply duplicate the clip in the Browser and make adjustments, then edit it in to the timeline with an Audition. This will give you two versions of the clip in both the Browser and timeline.

[Craig Alan] "Highlight clip in timeline> share to project file>import media from project file?"

You can do this if you'd like, but I think t's unnecessary to make another hard copy of the clip.

[Craig Alan] "But two way communication between browser and timeline is a NLE standard."

Kind of. You can drag a clip from the timeline in FCP7 and make a new instance of the clip with all filters and modifications, but changes make in the browser don't automatically ripple to every instance of the clip in timelines in FCP7 as they do with compound clips in FCPX. SO, X does have a bit of two way communication, but it doesn't behave like FCP7 much at all.

A compound clip is currently the only way to make a modification to a clip in a timeline to the Browser, and you can duplicate compound clips, as has been mentioned, by right clicking and choosing Clip > Reference New Parent.

Jeremy


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Craig Alan
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 9:10:43 pm

Thanks for helping Jeremy - much appreciated.

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Craig Alan] "But sometimes I make changes in the timeline to a clip and I'd like to save this version of the clip for future use either in the same project or a different one. "

So why don't you? You could dupe the clip in a Project and make an Audition that will travel with the clip.
"


Not getting this. By way of example, I have a clip on a timeline that I have cropped and color corrected.

I decide it is not working in the current sequence of shots, but I like the clip and it might fit later down the timeline or in a different version of the project. How do I save these changes for future use?

I don't want this to appear stuck in my ways, cause as long as I can learn a new way of doing something I'm good to go. But FCP 7 keeping the original version of a clip and then accepting a modified version from the timeline just makes sense to me. It's what I want to do in this case.

I can dupe the clip in the timeline, ok. Now what? Not understanding what "travel with the clip" means (except a compound clip being auto saved to the browser). How does auditioning the clip relate to this need to save any modifications to the original?

I like the concept that the compound clip can either be globally modified or a new parent can be created. Though to avoid gotchas it would be good to rename it carefully or have a dialog box showing you all the instances in which the modifation would take place.

I save my projects in sparse images so that only those mounted load in FCP X. If I were to use a compound clip in a new project and changed any instance of the compound would the changes occur within the projects that were not mounted during the change?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeff Kirkland
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 9:24:23 pm

[Craig Alan] "Not getting this. By way of example, I have a clip on a timeline that I have cropped and color corrected.

I decide it is not working in the current sequence of shots, but I like the clip and it might fit later down the timeline or in a different version of the project. How do I save these changes for future use?
"


I'd just select the clip or clips and create a compound clip from them. That gives you a version of the clip including your changes in the event browser that you can re-use later. In another spot or project either use the clip as is if you think you may want to change it globally later or drop in onto the timeline and break the compound clip apart if you want to change it further without affecting other instances (keeping in mind that FCPX can become very unhappy if you use too many compound clips in a project).

Jeff Kirkland | Video Producer | Southern Creative Media | Melbourne Australia
http://www.southerncreative.com.au | G+: http://gplus.to/jeffkirkland | Twitter: @jeffkirkland


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Craig Alan
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16:01 pm

Thank you. Interesting.

But doesn't it seem like a silly work around to create a compound clip just to get it saved in the browser?

[Jeff Kirkland] "FCPX can become very unhappy if you use too many compound clips in a project"

What would approach too many? And unhappy how? Slows it down. Becomes corrupted?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 11:18:19 pm

[Craig Alan] "But doesn't it seem like a silly work around to create a compound clip just to get it saved in the browser? "

You can't drag clips up like you could in FCP7. It's a limitation. You also can't save effect favorites like you could in FCP7. Also a limitation.

But this doesn't mean that you can't save something for later use, you just have to use the methods that FCPX allows at the moment, for better or worse, and then send Apple feedback.


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Jeff Kirkland
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 9, 2013 at 12:33:38 am

[Craig Alan] "But doesn't it seem like a silly work around to create a compound clip just to get it saved in the browser? "

FCPX is still in it's early stages of evolution and silly or not, sometime it's just the way the app works. I hear that Apple do look at customer feedback so feel free to send 'em a feature request...

I tend to use compound clips as snapshots - it could be of an entire project timeline as a backup before I make changes or an individual clip to preserve whatever I've done to that. [alt]+g-->give it a name isn't really much more effort than dragging a clip back into the event library and has the advantage that I can group as large a section of the timeline as I want.

As to how many is too many... depends what's in 'em and how powerful your computer is. Can't say there's a hard and fast rule other than use them sparingly. And when you do hit that tipping point you'll get slow projects, corrupt projects that hang and don't open, or take hours to open, mysterious crashes - generally lots of unpredictable behaviour that comes from FCPX running out of resources.

For all of that, it doesn't happen often these days but when I get a call from editor friends asking why FCPX is behaving badly, my first question is always "how many compound clips do you have on the timeline". It's usually nesting compound clips inside other compound clips that does the damage.

Jeff Kirkland | Video Producer | Southern Creative Media | Melbourne Australia
http://www.southerncreative.com.au | G+: http://gplus.to/jeffkirkland | Twitter: @jeffkirkland


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Craig Alan
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 9, 2013 at 5:06:34 am

Got it, thanks. I guess the compound clip was FCPX's answer to having more than one sequence per project (even though you could have a different project with the same media). And again although I don't need to save modified clips frequently, I certainly feel the need a couple of times per project. In FCP 7 it was often a subclip in the browser (FCP X favorite but in 7 you could have more than one per master clip) or dragging a clip back from the timeline.

Surprises me they would have a powerful feature like saving compound clips as either parent or dependent and yet have no way to same a modified clip. But I get it and can live with it.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 9, 2013 at 5:12:55 am

[Craig Alan] "Surprises me they would have a powerful feature like saving compound clips as either parent or dependent and yet have no way to same a modified clip."

The way compounds work now is not how they always worked. The compound in Event method is relatively new.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 10:29:15 pm

[Craig Alan] "I decide it is not working in the current sequence of shots, but I like the clip and it might fit later down the timeline or in a different version of the project. How do I save these changes for future use? "

Keep it in a timeline or Project.

Before you make sweeping changes, dupe your Project and work off of a new copy so that you can go back to the old version as needed.

[Craig Alan] "How does auditioning the clip relate to this need to save any modifications to the original?"

You have a clip in the timeline that is cropped and color corrected. You know want a clean version of the clip. Shift-f to match frame, Shift-Y to replace as Audition.

Now you have two copies of the clip in your timeline, one cropped, one clean.

[Craig Alan] "I save my projects in sparse images so that only those mounted load in FCP X. If I were to use a compound clip in a new project and changed any instance of the compound would the changes occur within the projects that were not mounted during the change?"

Compounds are tied to an Event. If any compound tied to specific Event is other sparse disk bundled Projects, yes they will change. You should familiarize yourself with "Reference New Parent Clip" function and really play with it.


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Craig Alan
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 11:09:51 pm

Again, thanks for your time.

I'm learning much more from this exchange than simply solving my original need.

I find the idea of duping a project in order to save clip revisions kinda unruly.

I used to do this all the time as a writer - save entire script versions when I needed to edit out scenes I liked. After a few of these, I had no idea what version was which and why I kept it. So instead I just created an outtake folder for the project and it was a lot easier for me.

shift-F shift-Y fantastic. thanks.

[Jeremy Garchow] ""Reference New Parent Clip" function and really play with it."

Agreed. I do get the premise, but nothing beats practice with a feature.

I'm liking my idea to simply share (export) the clip into a new event folder called say "saved clips" and give it a name like Maria_CC_CU_ (color corrected close up on Maria) and then import it into the event browser. However, would I still be allowed to match frame in case say I wanted to revise the crop?

No need to answer. I'll give the three ways a try and find out for myself.

Thanks again.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12:22 pm

[Craig Alan] "However, would I still be allowed to match frame in case say I wanted to revise the crop?"

No, as you are creating new media that has no connection to the old media.


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Craig Alan
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 11:36:55 pm

How about saving this single modified clip as a compound clip as Jeff suggested? And do you agree with his warning that FC doesn't like too many compounds? And yes I would save it as a new parent.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 8, 2013 at 11:47:58 pm

[Craig Alan] "How about saving this single modified clip as a compound clip as Jeff suggested? And do you agree with his warning that FC doesn't like too many compounds? And yes I would save it as a new parent."

It's a way to do it, yes.

Yes, I do agree that many compounds can trip up FCPX.


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Mark Morache
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 9, 2013 at 2:17:36 am

I'll sometimes create a scrap timeline. Once you've opened it and opened your primary timeline you can easily select a portion and use the arrows above the left side of the timeline window to switch between timelines, cutting or copying portions and moving them into your scrap timeline.
You can create the scrap timeline as a project or create a compound clip that will live in the event browser. It should work either way.

And as far as having too many compound clips, I believe the new way fcpx handles compound clips fixed most of that.

---------
Don't live your life in a secondary storyline.

Mark Morache
FCPX/FCP7/Xpri/Avid
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thanks Jeremy
on Jul 9, 2013 at 2:19:19 am

[Mark Morache] "And as far as having too many compound clips, I believe the new way fcpx handles compound clips fixed most of that."

*most but not all.

Lots of compounds and lots of synced clips seems to cause weird things in FCPX. It is certainly better than how it used to be, though.


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Mark Morache
Auditioning alternate edits
on Jul 8, 2013 at 3:53:15 am

I frequently use auditions of compound clips to produce alternate edits. I would take a section of my timeline and compound it, then duplicate the compound as an audition then make changes inside the new compound. This way I could create two versions of my timeline without duplicating the entire thing.

Say I had a 45 second montage in the middle of a timeline, and tried two completely different types of music, that necessitated completely adjusting the rhythm and even shot selection. Two versions that can be switched with a key-stroke.

When FCPX changed the way that compound clips are handled, adding them to the event browser, this workflow changed. You can still do it, but after you compound, and duplicate and add to audition, you now need to select your new audition and "reference new parent clip" to break the duplicate from the original compound clip. Now you can create your alternate timeline section.

If I'm just switching out one shot, I don't compound it.

But here's a question... when you create an audition to a clip with other clips attached, the new audition doesn't have anything connected to it. Do you then go back and copy and paste everything that was connected to the original? Or is there an easy way to create an audition and keep everything connected when you switch the auditions?

---------
Don't live your life in a secondary storyline.

Mark Morache
FCPX/FCP7/Xpri/Avid
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Auditioning alternate edits
on Jul 8, 2013 at 4:25:33 am

[Mark Morache] "But here's a question... when you create an audition to a clip with other clips attached, the new audition doesn't have anything connected to it. Do you then go back and copy and paste everything that was connected to the original?"

that's one way, but it's slow and annoying.

[Mark Morache] "Or is there an easy way to create an audition and keep everything connected when you switch the auditions?"

Tilde.

When adding a clip to start a new Audition, the default key command is control-shift-y. tilde-control-shift-y will add the new clip as an Audition to the selected clip in timeline.

Then you hold tilde and hit control-right arrow to choose that new clip and leave the connected clips in place.

For some reason, holding tilde and using the "replace and add to audition" command (shift-y) doesn't seem to work reliably.

These methods are sort buggy in their inconsistencies, but if you know the limitations, it does sort of work. Dragging and dropping while holding ghe tilde key and choosing "Add to Audition" works, too.


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