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Jakub Vomacka
FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jun 30, 2013 at 10:46:46 am

Hello

i was wondering if there is any way to work with full HD prores proxy files, while retaining the same workflow/steps as with built in (halfHD) proxy workflow? Im guessing editing some preferences in plists or something could make it possible?

When i create full HD proxies manually and put them in the right directory, FCPX says modified file and i couldn't find a way to make it work. I know i can relink to proxies for editing and at the end relink to original media, but i would prefer to retain the same functionality as is with "built in" proxy workflow.

I think that for monitoring on external TV half HD proxy is bad choice, although its fine for the fcpx viewer. When deciding on quality of effects (slow motion for example) or clarity of focus of the particular shots, i have big problems on TV with half HD proxies.

hope someone has some advice or a tip?

thanks

p.s: sorry for my english


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jun 30, 2013 at 5:08:39 pm

Fcpx does not allow reconnection of a subset of externally created media.

If you need full resolution to judge a few shots then simply switch prefs to high quality, judge, then switch back to proxy for edit.

What's your source material?


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jun 30, 2013 at 7:33:28 pm

[Jakub Vomacka] "I think that for monitoring on external TV half HD proxy is bad choice, although its fine for the fcpx viewer. When deciding on quality of effects (slow motion for example) or clarity of focus of the particular shots, i have big problems on TV with half HD proxies."

Are you sure the problem is with X's proxy structure?

If you're using an actual TV SD TV display for your monitoring, then understand that you might well be doing a conversion to a relatively low resolution and interlaced display. Even if you're using an "HD TV" most of those are also interlaced and many times resolution limited by the need to display in common TV resolutions. I have a 32" sony HD display that sits over my editing station so I can get at least some idea of what my broadcast work looks like when it hits a home TV screen - but every time I use it to display a source from my editing system, I have to be mindful that I haven't "mis-set" it to one of it's legacy "tv station broadcast standard" resolutions like 480p.

Using such a system for judging "resolution"is as likely to mislead you as help you.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 1:43:50 am

Fcpx creates 960x540 proxy files from 1920x1080 media, as well as knocking the data rate down to near nothing.

This is a true proxy, and Jakub wants a higher resolution proxy.

Currently, this isn't possible with fcpx.

But, transferring between fcpx created proxies and native or optimized is really easy. It should be a toggle on the timeline itself, but I digress.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 3:15:15 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "This is a true proxy, and Jakub wants a higher resolution proxy."

I kinda got that Jeremy.

The red flag for me was his mention of the TV.

If he's using an actual televsion for a monitor, he may want a higher rez proxy, but if he has nothing to display that on but an interlaced TV set - that may be knocking his resolution right back down again via interlacing. So I figured that "might" be important to note as well.

I've seen a LOT of guys who hook up consumer TV sets as an inexpensive way to get a "big monitor" not understanding the difference between a TV and a real video monitor.

Jakob might work in Flanders Scientific Land - or he may work in LG TV from Best Buy land. No real way to tell from the question other than his use of the term TV rather than Monitor.

If my presumption is wrong, it won't be the first time!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jakub Vomacka
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 1:18:45 pm

thanks for the advice and information to both of you

Jeremy understood exactly what i had in mind.
Concerning the source material: I understand the quality of fcpx proxies really depend on the source, but either way, fullHD proxy is faster to work with and 3x smaller than regular prores. For me its optimal quality with optimal size.

The projects i work on usually have about 80h of mixed XDCAM, AVCHD and GoPro h.264. Im working in legacy on these longform, fcpx for short projects and i prefer to store my original footage on external drive and creaty proxy for editing on internal drives. Im exploring to switch on longform to fcpx as you see.

When i tried fcpx proxy from Sony F3 XDCAM footage, i wasnt very satisfied with the result. Not even talking about the GoPro material.

As for monitoring i use prosumer plasma from Panasonic with Blackmagic Intensity to playback. I know what to expect of the quality and resolution i can get from this set (i dont really need best color accuracy, grading is done elsewhere).

Of course what Jeremy suggests works, just switch to original to judge, or directly edit with original media. Or maybe i will edit with proxies without TV and go original media for the final edit and TV monitoring. It is just a "wish" for me i guess to have a setting in preferences or easy hack to get FullHD proxies.

anyway, thanks for your time


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 2:22:33 pm

[Jakub Vomacka] " It is just a "wish" for me i guess to have a setting in preferences or easy hack to get FullHD proxies."

It's a good request. You should let Apple know:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

Jeremy


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 4:07:28 pm

Glad it was cleared up.

But it makes me wonder what a "Full HD Proxy" would entail?

Is it "full HD" if it's been compressed? If not, then is it actually a proxy?

I get that there are alternate ways to encode proxies than the way X does it, but considering the way that adding either extra bit depth or more real resolution scales so rapidly with HD rasters, how much more quality in resolution could you expect before you're getting awfully close to the original data rate of your HD target?

Honestly curious.

What might be a "sweeter spot" that provides significantly more resolution yet STILL preserves a whole lot of bandwidth savings?

And wouldn't that make someones system a whole lot more "fragile" since adding additional streams of data with more robust proxies would quickly tax a system.

Interesting discussion.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 4:20:33 pm

1920x1080 for staters.

This way you don't have to look at a half HD proxy blown up on an HD TV.

You can do this yourself, Bill.

Take a full res 1080 ProRes (or HDSLR in your case) movie.

Make a ProRes Proxy 1080 movie, then make a 540 ProRes Proxy movie. Compare both when played out on baseband video.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 4:40:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "This way you don't have to look at a half HD proxy blown up on an HD TV."

This is my confusion.

I do this literally every single day.

I work in Proxy mode all the time. I have no problem judging color or resolution issues. I can see them on my computer - and I can park on a frame and the 32" LCD suspended over my edit desk shows me exactly what that image will look like when rendered out.

Essentially instantly.

Is the problem the ability to judge something relating to the behavior of motion files? Is it that you need to present better streams for client viewing in a suite style situation?

I can get that.

As X migrates from being a personal editing tool into being a more collaborative one, I can see the need for these capabilities. But it's pretty obvious to me from the WWDC annoucement that Apple understands this and shouldn't the 3 streams of 4k live monitoring from the new MacPro make this a total non-issue for most editors soon?

So given Apple's very public posture about working on tremendously improved monitoring in the near future tied to new hardware, what would be the the point of this request?

Just trying to think this through.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 4:46:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "I work in Proxy mode all the time. I have no problem judging color or resolution issues. I can see them on my computer - and I can park on a frame and the 32" LCD suspended over my edit desk shows me exactly what that image will look like when rendered out. "

Well, then I guess you and I see things differently.

FCPX generated ProRes Proxy, on my monitor, does not look like the final version when rendered out at full quality.

[Bill Davis] "Is the problem the ability to judge something relating to the behavior of motion files? Is it that you need to present better streams for client viewing in a suite style situation?"

Jakub's first post clearly sums it up: "I think that for monitoring on external TV half HD proxy is bad choice, although its fine for the fcpx viewer. When deciding on quality of effects (slow motion for example) or clarity of focus of the particular shots, i have big problems on TV with half HD proxies."

Then more reasoning: "Concerning the source material: I understand the quality of fcpx proxies really depend on the source, but either way, fullHD proxy is faster to work with and 3x smaller than regular prores. For me its optimal quality with optimal size.

The projects i work on usually have about 80h of mixed XDCAM, AVCHD and GoPro h.264. Im working in legacy on these longform, fcpx for short projects and i prefer to store my original footage on external drive and creaty proxy for editing on internal drives. Im exploring to switch on longform to fcpx as you see.

When i tried fcpx proxy from Sony F3 XDCAM footage, i wasnt very satisfied with the result. Not even talking about the GoPro material."


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James Cude
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 5:13:13 pm

You can make your own proxies in any codec/resolution that you want and forego the automatic FCPX settings.

All you need to do is make sure the original clips and the proxies you make match identically in their audio channel configuration, starting timecode, frame rate and duration and you can Relink Event Files to originals or any proxy format you choose. This is *not* using FCPX's own proxy mode but staying in Original Media mode and using the Relink Event Files command to toggle between the original media and your proxies.

The simplest way to do it is to create a folder called Proxies and encode all of your clips to that folder, keeping the same original media name. Then toggling back and forth is very easy because the names match and relink will automatically reconnect all clips in the folder.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 1, 2013 at 11:04:53 pm

James-

Thanks for posting this. I have seen this mentioned before, but whenever I try to do this, really weird things happen, like my original media gets replaced with Proxy transcodes and then I can't reconnect back to the original media.

I would say to be careful and test test, but if you know of a surefire workflow, I'd love to hear it.

Jeremy


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Mark Morache
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 2, 2013 at 12:51:57 am

Wouldn't you also need to have a similar frame size? Would all of your scaling and position effects translate accurately?

I haven't found that I need to use proxy. Our shop uses xdcam ex at 35mbs, so I can put most projects on my second internal drive on my laptop.

The one time I wanted to use proxy was a project with a lot of multicam (5 streams) and my computer started having trouble with anything above 3 streams. I found however that I needed to create proxies of every bit of footage, not just my multiclips, and that bummed me out, so I just lived with the stuttering in the angle viewer.

Honestly, if you're going to need to create proxies to edit more than a couple of multicam streams, wouldn't it be better for fcpx to create a multicam clip that rendered down all the streams into one clip that would play in the angle editor? But I'm getting off topic...

If I were dealing with full prores files, I'd be tempted to use compressor to create full hd proxies in a more compressed format, and simply relinking the files back to the full prores when finished.

---------
Don't live your life in a secondary storyline.

Mark Morache
FCPX/FCP7/Xpri/Avid
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 2, 2013 at 1:03:57 am

[Mark Morache] "Wouldn't you also need to have a similar frame size? Would all of your scaling and position effects translate accurately?"

No as fcpx has methods to handle this in the transform.



[Mark Morache] "If I were dealing with full prores files, I'd be tempted to use compressor to create full hd proxies in a more compressed format, and simply relinking the files back to the full prores when finished."

This is the conundrum. James has success with it, I don't.

I have gotten to the point where a Proxy files replaces the original h264 (or whatever) file in the Event > Original Media folder.

You then have to reimport the orig file and reconnect manually. It's not pretty.


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Jakub Vomacka
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 2, 2013 at 8:53:10 am

That is exactly my experience. I have to move original files from the Events/Original Media folder before relinking, because as I relink to proxy, all the original media is lost (not even in thrash, gone) and links to proxy take their place.

in the end i will store both versions in separate locations outside of fcpx structure and relink manually, the same old Legacy way :)


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James Cude
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 2, 2013 at 5:25:54 pm

This is storing outside of the Original Media folder i.e. not copy on import. And not using the Proxy mode of FCPX- stick with Original Media at all times, simply force relink to the proxies you've made with the same file names. And keep in separate folders.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 2, 2013 at 5:28:19 pm

[James Cude] "This is storing outside of the Original Media folder i.e. not copy on import. And not using the Proxy mode of FCPX- stick with Original Media at all times, simply force relink to the proxies you've made with the same file names. And keep in separate folders."

Yes, but if you have cameras that get rewrapped, you have to remember to drag the media out of the Event folder.

It would be much easier if FCPX gave us an option to make full res HD proxys, or even ProRes LT would be a welcome option.

This way I can keep working while FCPX does all the mundane stuff for me.


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James Cude
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 2, 2013 at 5:32:40 pm

Sure but you'd have to touch those clips anyway to make your own proxies. Agreed that it would be ideal if you could control the exact size/codec/compression of proxies directly with FCPX's proxy creation method. But the original poster was looking for a way to get better proxies with the app we have.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCPX proxy workflow with full HD proxies?
on Jul 2, 2013 at 5:38:08 pm

[James Cude] "Sure but you'd have to touch those clips anyway to make your own proxies. Agreed that it would be ideal if you could control the exact size/codec/compression of proxies directly with FCPX's proxy creation method. But the original poster was looking for a way to get better proxies with the app we have."

I'm just saying, be careful.

It doesn't take much to completely blow away all of your imported footage and replace it with proxy footage.

There's a super specific way to do this, and it's not as easy "relink to your own proxies".


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