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Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata

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adam chesbrough
Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 7, 2013 at 5:19:46 pm

My issue now is how to effectively collaborate and share (keywords, favorites, ranges etc). Here is my process with #4 being the issue.
1. I learned my lesson and begin a share within FCPX using duplicate (can't duplicate more than one project at a time which is going to turn into an issue, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it)
2. As you can see from attachment. I keep all RAW media in a folder (within events) that I created so that I can maintain somesort of folder structure (god forbid apple expects me to work with someone who doesn't use FCPX right...). screenshot2013-05-07at1.10.02pm.png
3 After duplication (to another drive) I need to relink all the files (FCPX can't find the referenced media from "original media" since FCPX WANTS me to do things there way and have all RAW media in "original media"
4. OKAY, my editor is off and running but I want him to organize using keyword collections, favorites, reject, ranges, in/out points, markers etc. I NEED all of this important pre-editing work to be available on my computer when I open the project back up to start the final edit. When I bring the project back onto my drive and change the event reference, all of the important work that my editor did is gone. NO keywords, no favorites, no ranges, no markers etc.

Is there something easy that I am missing

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Bill Davis
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 7, 2013 at 10:31:24 pm

[adam chesbrough] "
Is there something easy that I am missing"


Lots and lots and lots.

Seems to me that you're kinda focused on building complex buckets of large data files that try to hold everything - then duplicating those large buckets and moving them around to satisfy different purposes.

The much easier way is to create an original bucket of media (a "collection," if you will) then from that point on, REFERENCE that bucket from inside FCP-X. Essentially you store as little as possible inside the Event and Project files that live in your Movies folder other than things that can't easily be referenced elsewhere.

That way, moving projects is fast and simple. Duplication and backup is something done on the small, metadata files that X uses to keep track of EVERYTHING the user does - but that large file manipulation process is walled off as much as is practical from the operator.

Yeah, there are some larger files that need to be stored and managed locally for currently "live" projects - (transcodes, renders, etc) but all of these are files that X can "re-calculate" if you don't need instant access to them.

So the game is not "how MANY operations do I setup where I need to move and operate with big buckets of large files --- but rather how FEW can I get away with.

Just food for thought.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Atilio Menéndez
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 8, 2013 at 6:37:47 pm

Hi Adam,

I don't think you are missing "lots and lots and lots" of "something easy". FCPX has no proper collaborating workflow, period. Hopefully it will have, but right now it just doesn't.

With Final Cut Legacy collaborating was easy: each editor could copy all media to his own drive and then, since all his "work", that is, all of the information about his organizing and editing was contained within a single and quite small PROJECT FILE, this file could be mailed back and forth, changes made, stuff copied from one sequence to the next, different versions made, backups, etc.

In FCPX this is not at all straightforward, to put it mildly. First of all, all of the information pertainig to the organizing and classifying of media is stored within the events and NOT the projects. The events are not merely containers of -or pointers to- the media, but contain the keyword collections, favorites, ranges, markers, etc. Therefore, in point 4 which you described, you need to bring your editor's EVENT back into your drive, not his project.

Now, you might think that the actual "editing" will be stored within the projects. Well, not quite. As of version 10.0.6, compound clips can no longer be stored within projects but are ONLY stored within events. That is, changes you make in the timeline to a compound clip which is within a project are not stored in the project itself but in the event to which the project is associated. As a result, in order to manage different versions of a project where compound clips are used, you have to manage the events which contain these compund clips CONCURRENTLY, making always sure that these compound clips are all "unique". Otherwise, any change you make to a compound clip will update within all projects where it is used, even if these projects are not open. Also, if you have compound clips within a project and, say, copy the project to your editor's drive, you have to do so within FCPX and make sure it copies the compound clips ALONG WITH the project (there is an option and FCPX will create a new event with these compound clips). Your editor must receive both the project AND an event containing the compound clips used in -and unique to- that project.

Yes, I am also scratching my head.

But let's go back to your case. So you need to copy the EVENT back from your editor, where he has diligently added keywords, favorites, etc. How to do so without actually copying or moving the media around? If you work the way FCPX expects, that is, keeping your media within the "Original Media" folder, you simply can't. Final cut will always physically copy or move the media, even within a device.

So you have to do something along the lines of what Bill suggested, keeping the media in a "collection", outside of the events (note that the media must be outside of the event folder ENTIRELY, not merely outside of the "Original Media" folder!). Only then does fcpx NOT pysically copy or move the media. Still, each time you move or copy an event from one device to another, you will have to relink all of the clips within the new device.

(A workaround to avoid relinking is to replace just the CurrentVersion.fcpevent file. This works nicely once the alises in the "Original Media" folder are correctly pointing to the media within its device, that is, after relinking once. Nevertheless, this is somewhat a hack since the CurrentVersion.fcpevent file also contains information about render files, transcoded media, etc. which is almost surely different between systems. I don't know if this could cause problems. As a precaution you might want to have FCPX delete all render files on both events before moving the CurrentVersion.fcpevent file around.)

For all of these reasons I now stick to the following practices:

1. Keep all media outside of the events and manage my media manually.
2. Work only with events. Do all editing in compound clips and never use projects.

Needless to say, none of this is properly documented by Apple. Imagine a team of editors, new to the program, trying to sort this all out? Whoah!


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Bill Davis
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 8, 2013 at 10:29:41 pm

[Atilio Menéndez] "For all of these reasons I now stick to the following practices:

1. Keep all media outside of the events and manage my media manually.
2. Work only with events. Do all editing in compound clips and never use projects.

Needless to say, none of this is properly documented by Apple. Imagine a team of editors, new to the program, trying to sort this all out? Whoah!"


Just how long have you been using X?

Don't use Projects? Dude, in X timelines ARE projects. Period.

"Just use "compound clips" is just about the shortest sighted opinion I"ve ever seen expressed here.

A compound clip is a special circumstance where the metadata you've used downstream in a Storyline can be reflected back up to the Event Library in order to make it available to additonal Storylines.

It is NOT an timeline "replacement" and never will be.

Doing what you suggest is like watching a guy try to frame a building using a crescent wrench to drive nails.

Please inform yourself by watching the many quality X training resources that are all over the internet and listen to those who actually understand the software.

FWIW

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Atilio Menéndez
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 8, 2013 at 11:29:56 pm

Bill, your incredibly condescending answer addresses none of the issues I described which arise when using projects in a collaborative environment. In such circumstances projects are created by different editors which in turn will surely create many different versions. If these projects use compound clips, then one has to keep track of the projects ALONG WITH with their corresponding events. I personally have found it much easier to deal just with events.

You say a compound clip will "never be" a "timeline replacement". I imagine you meant "project replacement". Well, please explain why, since I have found that I can do absolutely all of my editing using just compound clips. The only instances when I DO need projects is when I need a "faux media manager" and want to export an edit with only the media which it references.

Look, I use the program daily and have been using is since it was released and previously used fcp7 for several years. I really don't think I don't understand the software and have to "inform myself". I have described the way I like to use the program and which works very well for me. If you disagree then please at least refer to the issues which I described.


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adam chesbrough
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 9, 2013 at 12:38:32 am

Thanks for the replies. Everyone has different processes and work arounds, and tricks for editing. The goal of this post is to simply find out how others are doing things. Let's keep it friendly everyone.

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Bill Davis
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 9, 2013 at 3:42:50 am

[Atilio Menéndez] "Bill, your incredibly condescending answer addresses none of the issues I described which arise when using projects in a collaborative environment. In such circumstances projects are created by different editors which in turn will surely create many different versions. If these projects use compound clips, then one has to keep track of the projects ALONG WITH with their corresponding events. I personally have found it much easier to deal just with events. "

Let me not be condescending then.

Go back and read the collected writings of John, Charlie, Jeremy et al who have been working so sort out X in collaborative environments right on this board nearly daily. Somehow they manage to use the software the way the designers intended. I've never heard ONE of them say that the smartest way to do networked work is to do everything as compound clips, and that Standard Storylines, Projects, Connected Clips, Auditions and the myriad other tools involved are a stupid idea that need to be "worked around" by just making everything a compound.

I will say that since I don't recall your posting much in this forum previously during the past 2 years when the core group of us have been discussing these things nearly daily - so it's it's quite possible I've managed to misconstrue what you were actually saying.

But also as someone who's been here that long - and who has been an active debater about it's functions and process in a very public fashion - what you wrote barely made sense to me and runs counter to my experience. If that's an interpretive problem on my end, please let me know why.

I'd love to hear your reasoning behind the idea that Compound Clips are the universal solution for properly collaborating via X and how it's more efficient to toss out the rest of the many editing constructs that Randy and the interface design team constructed that don't center around the CC concept.

So educate me. I'm open to new thinking and would be happy to listen carefully.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Atilio Menéndez
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 9, 2013 at 5:50:18 am

Wow. Those are some harsh words, Bill.

Yes, I believe you have misconstrued what I said. I have said nothing at all about "working around" Standard Storylines, Connected Clips or Auditions. I use them all the time, just like everyone else. To "make everything a compound clip"? To "toss out" the "rest of the editing constructs" and that these are a "stupid idea"? When did I say that? I most certainly didn't mean ANYTHING like that.

Let me try to explain again. I was perfectly happy using projects until version 10.0.6. Then the way compound clips work changed, and, since I use compound clips a LOT, and compound clips within auditions and what not, this was a big change. My problem is that if you work on a project which contains compound clips, then as soon as you open a compound and change anything within that compound, the changes are stored not in the project but in an event. I therefore didn't see much benefit in using projects if these in reality only store the "upper layer" of my edit and everything else is stored within the events. I discovered that I can be perfectly happy not using projects at all and working just with compounds/events. That's just what works for me. It makes my life easier for the reasons which I have explained as I don't have to keep track of which event contains the compound clips of which project, etc.

Now, anything you can do by editing a project can be done by editing a compound. Opening a compound in the timeline and opening a project in a timeline, are they truly different? Can you not export ("share") from a compound? Set its resolution? Can you not use Standard Storylines, Connected Clips, Auditions, other Compound Clips? Can you not do all of these within both, equally well? What is the big sin that I am comitting by not using projects? I still DO use them, by the way, but mostly for my "final renders", or for the "media-management" features, as a tool. I, personally, am just happier not using them as part of my workflow when I am actually editing. Is that really so awful?

My initial post had, by the way, much less to do with projects than with the problems Adam was facing collaborating on changes made to events. I hope I was useful there. My suggestion regarding projects, which I didn't even consider so important, was much less the idea that you MUST avoid them than the suggestion that you CAN do so if you want to.

I have not posted much in this forum, true, but have followed it very closely in the last years and have appreciated your contributions. I am somewhat surprised by your reaction, I must say.


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Bill Davis
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 9, 2013 at 8:45:02 pm

Just so you understand, I got it from this idea directly from your original post...

______

For all of these reasons I now stick to the following practices:

1. Keep all media outside of the events and manage my media manually.
2. Work only with events. Do all editing in compound clips and never use projects.
______

I don't know any other way to interpret what you wrote.
You're very bullet points were simple: Work only with events. "Do all your editing in compound clips and never use projects."

I just saw the above text as very bad advice.

If what's written here needed context or explanation, sorry. But that's simply how I read it.

As to the rest of your points - fine. Within all that context I better understand where you're coming from.

But that was obscured by the way your comment - which appeared at first blush to be terrible advice - largely becaus it was cut off from the contextural back story that YOU knew, but that I didn't have a clue about.

Remember, a whole lot of people read stuff here - and they have a whole lot of varying levels of expertise. So a blanket statement like the one referenced above arguing to "never use projects" is a very dangeous thing to leave hanging out as advice for the general user, IMO.

But I can see now that this was mostly mis-interpretation and confusion.

So back to your seats everyone. Nothing to see here anymore.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Atilio Menéndez
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 9, 2013 at 10:20:44 pm

Glad to hear that.


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John Davidson
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 10, 2013 at 6:10:38 am

Just to throw it out there but in those FCPX IN Action videos I mostly stick with compounds. The smaller media gets imported into sparse disks but it's mostly referenced as well. This lets us bounce around between systems rapidly (so rapidly we had to install intercoms yell at each other to mount and unmount stuff).

Anyways, projects are mostly used when we need to share outside or with other elements like exporting for protools. We think of it like a docking bay on the galactica. it's where you put stuff to get them in and out. That said projects are a little more stable, in our experience.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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adam chesbrough
Re: Pre-editing Collaboration. Maintaining/sharing keywords, ranges, favorites and other organizational metadata
on May 20, 2013 at 2:16:10 pm

So the only way that I have found to effectively copy keyword collection from one editor to the other is to simply replace the eventfcp file. This does not seem like a good solution as it then creates a "duplicate id" situation.

Most of preediting is organizing, labeling, keywords, favoriting etc. How does FCPX not have a streamlined solution for this. Is it because they figured all the professionals jumped ship?

Macbook Pro Retina: 2.6GHZ i7, 16GB RAM 1600MHz DDR3, GT 650M 1GB RAM

Hackintosh (Sandy Bridge): i5 2500, 16GB 1333MHz DDR3, Nvidia GT640 2GB RAM

OWC 4TB RAID0 (using esata)
Tempo SATA Pro ExpressCard/34 (6Gb/s)
Echo ExpressCard Pro Thunderbolt Adapter


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