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1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)

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Sebastien THOMAS
1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 17, 2013 at 11:36:56 pm

Hi all,

Blackmagic finaly added the lonnnng awaited ProRes 422HQ support to the Hyperdeck Shuttle pro2.
Today I shot my first video at 1080@25p from a Nikon D800 using the HDMI output.
As expected, the output is 1080@25Psf, meaning every frame is cut in two (upper/lower fields) and sent in a 1080i format to the Shuttle.
The shuttle is recording it as-is.

Importing files to FCPX is just a mater of "import" and you are done.
But FCPX does not know how to handle the format, leaving a interlace problem in the viewer (and movie).

As I read online, I tried to follow two things :

- create the project in custom mode, setting it to 1080@25p
- change ever clip from interlaced upper field to progressiv in the info->setting view panel. (you can actualy do this by directory using the cool utility JES Extensifier)

This changed two things :
- the video in the viewer still shows fileds
- the video in the output (shared as 720p movie) also show interlace artifacts.

Setting the clip back to "upper" field first seem to resolve the issue.

So what to think ?

Is keeping the clip as upper field the way to go ?
Will do some more tests tomorrow, but any advice or experienced people welcome to comment.

Thanks.

Sony PMW-EX1 - MacbookPro 17" - Dual 2Ghz G5 - 24" Samsung screen


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Paul Aspuria
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 18, 2013 at 1:47:05 am

All you need to do is set up a project sequence to 25fps. Then drop your clips into the Project area. Then FCPX will automatically perform the pulldown. Unless you've disabled the Background Render then you'll need to render it. Also you shouldn't have to touch the field dominance because it determines that for you. If go to check the clips attributes in the inspector it will still show you that the clip is interlaced. It only does the pulldown in the Project Area. If you go to the Project Library window that list all the projects then you can see quickly if the project's frame rate is correct. If you don't believe me export the Project and check in quicktime to verify that the interlacing is gone and frame rate is correct.

I guess the issue now is if you work in the compound clip method of editing and avoid creating Projects then you might want to do the conversion (pulldown) in JES or Compressor before importing into FCPX. I tend to do the pulldown beforehand in Compressor. It doesn't take that much time from what I've seen. Or you could copy your edit into new Project once you're done but that could cause some other issues.

I hope this helps.

Happy Editing!


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Jeff Kirkland
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 19, 2013 at 9:19:20 pm

I haven't used the Hyperdeck but for 25PsF from my Ninja I just highlight all the clips in the event and set field dominance to progressive in the info panel. If I create a new project using those clips and let FCPX auto choose the format I get 25p. It's worked that way for PsF files from the Ninja and a couple of older HD cameras so I'd expect it to work that way for the Hyperdeck Shuttle as well.

Jeff Kirkland | Video Producer | Southern Creative Media | Melbourne Australia
http://www.southerncreative.com.au | G+: http://gplus.to/jeffkirkland | Twitter: @jeffkirkland


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Sebastien THOMAS
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 19, 2013 at 9:52:35 pm

I think I lost myself, thinking I HAD to have the clips seen progressive by FCP.
The Ninja have a pulldown and can create real 1080p footages from the 1080psf signal (this is what I read). So the problem should not arise.

Finaly, keeping the prores clips as they are, interlaced upper field dominance and importing to a 25p project seems to be the way to go...

Thanks for your answers to all of you.
Movie will be released tomorrow, I'll add a link in here...

Sony PMW-EX1 - MacbookPro 17" - Dual 2Ghz G5 - 24" Samsung screen


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Jeff Kirkland
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 19, 2013 at 10:12:34 pm

The Ninja-2 handles pull-down but my Ninja-1 doesn't. Anyway, glad you've worked through it..

Jeff Kirkland | Video Producer | Southern Creative Media | Melbourne Australia
http://www.southerncreative.com.au | G+: http://gplus.to/jeffkirkland | Twitter: @jeffkirkland


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Sebastien THOMAS
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 31, 2013 at 7:49:14 pm

I did some more testing today and this is what I found :



What I did is :
- record some footage on the D800, 1080p30 to the internal compactflash
- record the same footage on the Hyperdeck Shuttle Pro 2
- import both in a FCP X project set to 1080p@29.97, put them on the timline in parallel and use the crop tool to split the image in two
- zoom to 200%

Image from the Shuttle is more contrast
Image from the Shuttle doesn't seem to better handle highlight
Image from the Shuttle is ALIASED SO MUCH it is not usable

I also tried with a real 1080p@30 project : same result.
The only solution to get a better image is to check, for each clip, the "deinterlace" option in the info window.

Nikon D800, D700 - MacbookPro 17" - Dual 2.66Ghz Macpro - 24" Samsung screen


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Jeff Kirkland
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 31, 2013 at 10:21:24 pm

Interesting. I'm surprised at the contrast difference. Any external recorder can only record what the camera sends it so there shouldn't be much difference between internal and external recording other than the advantages of recording a higher bitrate.

Do you still get the same contrast shift if you try a different codec on the Hyperdeck? What happens if you go DNxHD or uncompressed?

It's definitely a weird one. I've edited plenty of PsF recorded footage from different devices and I've never had to do more than go to the info panel and set Field Dominance Override to 'Progressive'.

last thought - is it just a difference in how it's previewing in the viewer window or does it render that way as well?

Jeff Kirkland | Video Producer | Southern Creative Media | Melbourne Australia
http://www.southerncreative.com.au | G+: http://gplus.to/jeffkirkland | Twitter: @jeffkirkland


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Sebastien THOMAS
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 31, 2013 at 10:31:28 pm

I definitely need to do more testing.
Maybe there is a gamma shift when recorded as prores that would explain why it is so much darker ?
Will have to compare to DNxHD and uncompress as you suggested...

When grading, I can lower the brightness of the highlights and get some detail back that are not there in the clip recorded on the D800. Lighting the blacks also give some details back.
I shot the same footage while changing the profile, going from neutral to vivid then special video profiles flat_10 and flat_11. I still have to compare the results.

If I just change the clip from 1080i to 1080p in the clip info, the "stair" problem is corrected on the edges inside the picture. But it appear on real movements :


BTW, the "stair" problem also appear in a rendered video. I actualy rendered the same clip with every possible settings (enterlaces upper/lower and progressive) in a 30fps and a 29.97fps timeline, with the same result.

Nikon D800, D700 - MacbookPro 17" - Dual 2.66Ghz Macpro - 24" Samsung screen


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Sebastien THOMAS
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 31, 2013 at 10:35:53 pm

As a side, I also had a shift between image and recorded sound when using external recorder. I read that other people had it and that Atomos (Ninja) make a special feature in the latest firmware to compensate the shift of 3 to 4 frames... On my side it wasn't a real shift as the voice was getting slower than the image, then back in sync...
It seems it is actualy the image that is lacking, not the sound which is constant speed...

Whatever, I wouldn't recomment anybody going on a serious project with the D800 and external recorder for now (one year after the D800 started selling...)
I'm going to Nikon Pro services in the coming weeks to have the D800 checked... Maybe it is just mine (or some of them...)

Nikon D800, D700 - MacbookPro 17" - Dual 2.66Ghz Macpro - 24" Samsung screen


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Jeff Kirkland
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 31, 2013 at 10:50:15 pm

Yes, it's definitely worth checking that your D800 is working properly although I'd be surprised if it was anything hardware related.

HDMI really does suck as a recording interface. I remember a DVD player that played back everything at what sounded like half speed audio - caused by an incompatibility in HDMI implementations between the player and the TV. HDMI is great if it works but it can be a bit hit and miss.

And I know that ATOMOS seem to have done a lot of work getting the Ninja to work properly with the D800. The last two or three firmware updates have had fixes specifically directed at D800 users so it may be that the D800 had a few HDMI quirks of its own that the Hyperdeck isn't handling just yet.

Not that any of that explains why FCPX isn't seeing the PsF footage properly. Have Blackmagic's support guys had any suggestions?

Jeff Kirkland | Video Producer | Southern Creative Media | Melbourne Australia
http://www.southerncreative.com.au | G+: http://gplus.to/jeffkirkland | Twitter: @jeffkirkland


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Sebastien THOMAS
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on Mar 31, 2013 at 10:52:39 pm

Actualy the BlackMagic support guys havn't been of any help regarding any of the issues the Shuttle have...

Nikon D800, D700 - MacbookPro 17" - Dual 2.66Ghz Macpro - 24" Samsung screen


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Fred Pedersen
Re: 1080@25 PsF import to FCP X : interlace problem (Hyperdeck Shuttle prores files)
on May 10, 2013 at 1:45:32 pm

Hi there,

having made it so far yet in terms of actually importing any footage to FCP. I'm following these post with great interest. Having played back the files recorded from my D800 to the hyperdeck shuttle 2 on my computer using both QT7 and VLC I have experienced similar symptoms. However, when I played back the files directly from the hyperdeck straight to a HD-tv I was positively surprised at the quality. However, once viewed on my MacBookPro, they look soft once deinterlaced in QT7. So basically the files are great played back straight from the hyperdeck shuttle, but on the mac they look nowhere near half as good. So hopefully there is a way to make the mac, QT, FCP etc handle the files as well.

best
Fred


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