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60p vs 59.94 Why?

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Kevin Brower
60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 13, 2013 at 3:15:09 am

Im on a Canon T3i shooting at 720 60fps. When creating a new project timeline is it better for it to be 60p or 59.94? What is the difference?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 13, 2013 at 3:42:00 am

Your footage is 59.94.

It is used to comply with legacy broadcast fractional frame rate of 29.97.


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Kevin Brower
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 13, 2013 at 4:33:42 am

Thanks for both responses


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Keith Koby
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 14, 2013 at 2:21:26 pm

It is interesting that you pose this question. I understand that it is in regards to your particular footage. Coincidently, there is quite the debate happening *again* in the broadcast engineering community about UHDTV standards and weather 1.001 frame rates should be vanquished.

It would be nice to have straight 60 frames and no drop frame time code to worry about in the future.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 14, 2013 at 6:10:54 pm

[Keith Koby] "It would be nice to have straight 60 frames and no drop frame time code to worry about in the future."

It would be nice.

But.

It would also make a clean break from legacy to something new, at the same time it would also complicate adding any legacy material to a new UHDTV program.

At some point, they will still need to go down to BluRay/DVD or broadcast live on sets that don't have whole frame rate capability.

I'd love to see it happen but I never think it will happen unless we can completely get rid of video signal dependencies.

It would also turn most legacy camera formats in to instant land fill.


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Keith Koby
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 14, 2013 at 7:41:16 pm

But think about it. It's just a spec for the new UHDTV stuff going forward... The only place that I think it really causes problems is live tv broadcast where you would see 4k UHDTV acquisition and broadcasts at 1.00 frame rates and standards conversion down converts to "pedestrian" HD at 1.001 frame rates. That's what concerns the big broadcasters... The chance of artifacts introduced by a live standards conversion is too great and the balance of people watching 4k to HD would be lopsided to HD in 2020.

For the camcorder class that only shoots at 1.001, it doesn't really matter, because it would need to be conformed and upconverted to mix with UHDTV content anyway. Kind of the same thing applies with the current crop of dvds and blurays and tvs. If you acquire and master with a 4k 1.00 frame rate spec and want to deliver to today's tv's and peripherals, then you have to conform.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 15, 2013 at 4:48:46 pm

[Keith Koby] "But think about it. It's just a spec for the new UHDTV stuff going forward..."

I completely hear you, but it also effects any archived movies finished in 4k (there are more and more everyday).

A lot of digital movies today are captured and posted in 23.976.

Like I said, I think it would be great, but I also think it won't happen as the standards folks will be too nervous to cause the debacle.


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gary adcock
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 15, 2013 at 10:51:53 pm

Hey Keith and JG.

One of the issue retaining DF timecode has to do with the tools that we bounce signals off of in space and as long as we are still using Satellites over a terrestrial IP distribution we are going to be stuck with some of these issues.
The vast majority of broadcast satellites are older than your car, ancient the area we are discussing here and most of them launched before the turn of the millennial calendar in 2000. How many of you are cutting 4k on a Quadra 900?

As distribution moves to IP based, which it will almost have to to do for the 4K and 8K packets, this should no longer be an issue. I hope.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

follow me on Twitter
@garyadcock




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 16, 2013 at 12:13:25 am

[gary adcock] "One of the issue retaining DF timecode has to do with the tools that we bounce signals off of in space and as long as we are still using Satellites over a terrestrial IP distribution we are going to be stuck with some of these issues.
"


Legacy satellites! ;)

[gary adcock] "As distribution moves to IP based, which it will almost have to to do for the 4K and 8K packets, this should no longer be an issue. I hope."

I'm all for it. I wish whole frame rates would have been a part of the HD broadcast spec, but alas, the NTSC world wasn't ready.

Good to see you around here, thought you had moved on and left us plebes in the dust for greener MXF pastures.


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Keith Koby
Re: 60p vs 59.94 Why?
on Jan 16, 2013 at 1:31:22 am

Ha! Agreed! Great to hear from you Gary!


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