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Simon Ubsdell
The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 6:01:43 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 1, 2018 at 6:18:53 pm

I am sure all of you here know much more about the color science than I do and can explain what is happening with the color wheels in FCP X 10.4 (specifically the Shadows, Midtones and Highlights) and why they differ so significantly both from the Color Board and from conventional color science.

I've made a short video to try and explain my confusion:







Have Apple come up with a new, more aesthetically pleasing, or more operationally efficient concept?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

(And a Happy New Year to all.)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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andy patterson
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 7:01:46 pm

Interesting. I have not downloaded the latest FCPX update yet.


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 7:33:09 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jan 1, 2018 at 7:35:08 pm

Happy New Year, Simon.

This kinda got hashed out 2 weeks ago on the 28,000 member Final Cut Pro X Editors Facebook Group.

The thread was started by Radim Řezníček under the heading...

The color management tools inside FCPX or when two do the same, it's not always the same...

Some serious color professionals weighed in and the conclusion appeared to be that while some of Apples choices might not be absolutely optimal for some professional colorists accustomed to truly bespoke tools - the new tools are an excellent enhancement to the software. (And it’s obvious that no FCP X editor will quibble at the new capabilities price! )

You might want to stop by there and read the thread. Somebody named Phil Pan participated and it appears he’s a top tier color science guy working in or near Hollywood on big $$$, mission critical stuff.

Might help anyone interested in the new FCP X Color tools to better understand Apples approach.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 8:16:53 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 1, 2018 at 8:20:51 pm

And a Happy New Year to you too, Bill!

I'm afraid I don't do Facebook on a matter of principle so I'm not sure how to access the discussion you mention.

I'd love to hear a bit more about the color science if you're able to give some details, but at the same time I'd really like to get a handle on some more general questions here.

a) Why did Apple deviate from the maths of the standard model? (The line of least resistance would have been to stick with the Color Board system but they chose to go a different route.)

b) Why did they adopt one model for the Color Board and a completely new one for the Color Wheels?

c) Is the Color Wheel model preferable to the Color Board?

d) If so, in what ways? Is there a particular aesthetic that we can benefit from?

I'm hoping you can help shed some light on these questions given your intimate knowledge of the software and your insight into Apple's game plan.

http://hawaiki.co/color.html
http://hawaiki.co/automatch.html
http://hawaiki.co/autograde.html
http://hawaiki.co/hawaiki.analyzer.html

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 8:42:06 pm

First off, trust me, you don’t want to look to me for ANY information on color science. I’m clueless beyond the rudimentary practical knowledge I use for getting my exports “viewable” - and claim nothing else.

But I did enjoy reading that public discussion about how X handles color science when the new FCP X color tools arrived with 10.4.

It went in way more depth than I could ever summarize here - (and I’d likely get many details wrong through ignorance as well!) but since they were public posts, I suppose it’s fair game to copy and paste the most informative of them to you in a private email.

That might help you form specific questions that you could bring back here in the hopes that others more knowledgeable than I might take things further for you.

Keep an eye on your email.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 9:13:57 pm

[Bill Davis] "Keep an eye on your email."

Thanks, Bill. I appreciate it.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 11:28:23 pm

I can do a VERY general summarization

Some professional colorists are disappointed that the new Tools in X are not ideally ACES or other standards compliant - tho they note that X's competitors are generally in the same boat. The thread noted that AVID and Premier, even with Lumetri added - have holes in their approaches to grading that dedicated colorists will find lacking.

Resolve wasn't mentioned in the referenced thread - so I don't know wether or not Resolve colorists feel they have absolutely everything they need "in Suite."
I'd suspect it's much closer due to it's heritage as a bespoke grading tool in it's prior life

If you want to do your grading inside X - you can get closer if you deactivate the "Preserve Luma" checkbox in FCP X. After after step, apparently, it's curves adjustment functions will be fully industry compliant, but the color wheels may still get you in technical trouble if used improperly. (this is my reading of things, to be taken with a grain of salt.)

Bottom line, for the legions of FCP X editors who do not wish to take on grading at a professional level - the new color tools are a great addition.

For those who wish to be both editors AND top ranked colorists and work in one program - there are still holes in ALL the current popular NLEs (Resolve perhaps excepted?) that can only be addressed by turning to bespoke tools.

That's my takeaway, at least.

Others who know more can weigh in on anything I might have gotten wrong.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 11:44:17 pm

If the color board does it correctly, wouldn't this be a bug? It being completely new in 10.4?

https://mathieughekiere.wordpress.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 1, 2018 at 11:54:37 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jan 1, 2018 at 11:56:18 pm

Mathieu,

You are missing the point.

2011-2017 The Color Board was the Devils handiwork and Completely unprofessional.

Now it’s 2018 and since Apple has added Color Wherls and Curves - it’s THOSE that are unprofessional and the Color Board is righteous and true.

Get with the narrative!

(Obviously teasing)

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Bret Williams
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 3:02:59 am

I think it’s a mess. It’s not right. I paid attention to the thread Bill was speaking of and it didn’t put any matters to ease for me. I’d call it a bug. Hopefully they’ll fix it.

_______________________________________________________________________
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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 11:23:10 am
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 2, 2018 at 12:23:46 pm

Thanks, Bill, and others who have kindly sent me extracts from the Facebook discussion.

I'd like to make it clear right up front that, despite how some people have read it, my video was not suggesting that there is a "bug" here, let alone a mistake.

Apple are using a different color model to the one that I think I and most other casual users were expecting up front. And more importantly they are using a different model to the one they followed for the Color Board. Both of these things call for comment, I think, but since I don't want to add to the confusion I have withdrawn the video.

The beauty of the conventional Lift/Gamma/Gain method is that it directly leverages the almost magical power of two numbers: one and zero.

If we multiply zero by any number you care to choose, the result is always zero. And that's what a conventional Gain control does - it's a simple multiplication. And Lift is a simple inversion of that.

Similarly and even more amazingly, if we raise either zero or one to the power of any number you care to choose, the results will always be zero and one respectively.

A conventional gamma correction uses a basic power function to raise or lower the midtones without affecting absolute black or absolute white.

These processes are not only beautifully simple, they are also beautifully effective, as I tried to show in the video.

When you are raising your whites (Highlights), you don't want your blacks going milky. And that's what the conventional Gain method guarantees.

When you are raising your blacks (Shadows), you don't want your whites to start clipping. And that's what the conventional Lift method guarantees.

When you are lowering your whites (Highlights), you don't want your blacks to start clipping. And that's what the conventional Gain method guarantees.

When you are lowering your blacks (Shadows), you don't want your whites to start going grey. And that's what the conventional Lift method guarantees.

And when you are raising or lowering your midtones, you don't want the whites and blacks following along, you want them to stay at the points you have already set. And that's what the conventional Gamma method guarantees.

As I showed in the video, the Color Board adheres to these fundamentally useful basic principles.

But the Color Wheels do not - because of the different model that they have adopted.

Instead of delivering the built-in protections of the Lift/Gamma/Gain method, the Color Wheels deliver something rather different, raising and lowering the very values that need to stay in place.

Again I want to stress that Apple have not "done anything wrong" here and it's not a bug. It's a choice they have legitimately made.

But it's a slightly odd one, in my view.

In Hawaiki Color, the first ever color wheels solution for FCP X, we chose to use the conventional Lift/Gamma/Gain method, so you can see that I am prejudiced 😉

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 1:21:12 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "As I showed in the video, the Color Board adheres to these fundamentally useful basic principles."

Only I'm personally not actually seeing that what you describe as far as 0/100 values staying put. Neither (max/min) highlights nor shadows stay completely unaffected when adjusting the midtones, even with the color board as you describe. At some point they will go well above/below 100/0, too. Far from locked. It's something that has always irked me and had hoped the color wheels would alleviate or rather offer an alternative to, only to in fact make matters worse, yes. Unless I'm doing/expecting something wrong?

- RK

____________________________________________________
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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 1:27:44 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 2, 2018 at 2:11:06 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Neither (max/min) highlights nor shadows stay completely unaffected when adjusting the midtones, even with the color board as you describe."

Yes, I did notice a little of that when doing the video.

Obviously the maths says that this shouldn't actually happen.

0^gamma (or more practically speaking: 0^1/gamma) is always going to be zero whatever the input value. Similarly with 1^gamma (or 1^1/gamma) - the result should always be 1.

But the discrepancy is very small and is unlikely to be a problem in practice.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bret Williams
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 2:32:36 pm

I, like Robyn, have always noticed the discrepancy with the color board. It stands out even more with actual video footage tmwhere the blacks aren’t full on zero. They ramp up way too quickly when adjusting highlights.

But the wheels... they’re way worse in this regard.

_______________________________________________________________________
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Mark Smith
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 1:29:12 pm

I am curious as to why you think the behavior of the color wheels is a feature and not a bug? It looks like a bug, or, over all gain in place of a control that would affect a particular range of values.
If this represents some sort of paradigm shift, I’m not convinced I actually need it.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 4:30:56 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "Have Apple come up with a new, more aesthetically pleasing, or more operationally efficient concept?"

I'd hope it's just a bug instead of a new, undocumented paradigm. Too bad because those tools look pretty nifty.


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Frank Valtellina
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 8:36:27 am

Hi, I also think it's a bug.... the "Curves" works fine and the "Color board" too. The problem is only in the "Color Wheels" it seems the engeneerings have not finish their job... if you try to insert a numerical value in brightness and saturation controls of "color wheels" you can do it... but it doesn't work. ☺ "Color board" has remain for the compatibility with older projects. We need to inform Apple


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 10:49:15 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "I've made a short video to try and explain my confusion:"

I take it you deleted it, since it's showing up as non-existent for me? I'd be very curious to better understand the confusion.


[Bill Davis] "This kinda got hashed out 2 weeks ago on the 28,000 member Final Cut Pro X Editors Facebook Group.
"


Any chance one could get you to post a Link?

Cheers,
RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 11:24:37 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "I'd be very curious to better understand the confusion."

See my post to Bill above. I hope that explains it.

Again I can't stress strongly enough that this is not a bug or a mistake. It's a feature.

I just find it a little curious. But that's just me.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Tony West
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 2:21:45 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Again I can't stress strongly enough that this is not a bug or a mistake. It's a feature."

Seems to me that if it's a "feature", then people might look toward Hawaiki Color, the product that you worked on.

If it's a "bug", then apple will likely fix it in an update and people might not be as likely to seek out HC.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 2:41:01 pm

[Tony West] "Seems to me that if it's a "feature", then people might look toward Hawaiki Color, the product that you worked on.

If it's a "bug", then apple will likely fix it in an update and people might not be as likely to seek out HC."


Disclaimer: Although I am very proud to have collaborated on Hawaiki Color and very grateful to the discriminating users who have sought it out over the years, I no longer have any commercial involvement with the product.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Tony West
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 3:17:06 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Disclaimer: Although I am very proud to have collaborated on Hawaiki Color and very grateful to the discriminating users who have sought it out over the years, I no longer have any commercial involvement with the product."

Fair and above board.

My point remains, better for X users overall, that it's a bug that's fixed in an update. We will know soon enough.

It's good information though, and it was a good video.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 4:19:46 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Jan 2, 2018 at 7:47:43 pm

[Tony West] "that it's a bug that's fixed in an update"

You realize of course, that that would change any and every instance of the filter that you have used by then after updating? Which is why I can't see that it's a bug nor that it would or could be "fixed". At least not in that way, should it in fact even need fixing.

That would literally require an additional filter, so as not to muck everything up. Unless there are other options to avoid that which I'm not aware of, which is obviously entirely possible. Seeing that I'm not a programmer. A "Do you want to update your color filters?" prompt if you open the old with the new? No idea. But again, it seems no one can argue 100% that it's in fact a bug or not, so ultimately pretty moot conversation, no?

But then different is not inherently wrong. I'd have thought FCP users of all people would have understood that by now. 😜

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Tony West
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 6:43:36 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "it seems no one can argue 100% that it's in fact a bug or not, so ultimately pretty moot conversation, no?"

Yeah,
I'll wait and learn more.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 11:45:06 am

[Tony West] "I'll wait and learn more."

Agreed. And I wonder what percentages of FCPX editors this "bug" actually matters to (at least outside of this forum)? Probably a very low number.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 12:05:53 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Jan 3, 2018 at 12:10:42 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "But then different is not inherently wrong. I'd have thought FCP users of all people would have understood that by now. 😜
"


The initial post and video from Simon is simply a question. What is happening? If it is different how does it differ? Why is the behavior working as expected in one color space, but the exact same behavior is different in another? If we have come to a point where we can’t ask questions, we have all lost.

If you look at Simon and Oliver’s 709 vs 2020 suggestions, you will notice that the actions occur as expected in one area and not the other. To me, this is the very definition of a bug. It may just be a miscalculation. Part of fixing the bug would to be to calculate the current filter values in to the corresponding fixed values so there would be no loss of work. I don’t think it would require an additional adjustment filter. So before we go sounding alarm beeps about how a fix would screw everything up, let’s take it one step at a time and figure out the issue, no? There’s a TON of new and different color science in FCPX so there may be some inaccuracies in this first version that I’m sure can be fixed without destroying current work.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 3:31:48 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Jan 3, 2018 at 4:04:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The initial post and video from Simon is simply a question."

Yes, I very much realize that, Jeremy. Thank you. Which is why it wasn't in fact directed at Simon. MY reading comprehension in fact does go far enough, that I can differentiate between the terms "Mystery", which was used, and "Bug" or "Problem" or "Broken". 😏

It was directed at no one in particular, rather just anyone that does consider the matter to be a bug or problem or whatever before anyone in fact knows for sure. Be it through Apple or any other reliable channels. I am in fact not judging anything either way, just curious to see what any subsequent explanation of it all may be.

Or to OVERexplain: "different is not inherently wrong" in this context means that a LOT about FCP (especially in the early stages as we know) has been considered to be "Wrong!", when it in fact was merely a different, misunderstood approach. One merely had to grasp the WHY to define the "wrong or right" for ONESELF. Preferably without pretending as if that conclusion is globally applicable to any and everyone. Whether it's the same this time around I do not know, but something tells me little to nothing of this magnitude is just BY ACCIDENT with Apple and FCP. We shall see.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Bret Williams
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 2:43:35 pm

Simon you’re being way too PC on this one but I understand as a developer you sometimes have to walk the line. I saw the video before you pulled it and it wasn’t overly critical of Apple or anyone who likes the current paradigm. It was in fact a very logical and acceptable question presented to the community that deserves an addressing. It was also very informative. I wish you’d repost. It really clarifies the situation.

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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 3:51:28 pm

[Bret Williams] "I wish you’d repost. It really clarifies the situation."

I've made it Public again, should anyone care to take a look. But I've made sure to disable comments to avoid the spread of FUD and misinformation which is really unhelpful here.

Incidentally Oliver P. has just suggested to me a very intriguing and plausible explanation for what's happening here, but I won't steal his thunder.

In fact, I'd never have noticed what was happening here at all if it weren't for his initial prompting.

Clever fellow.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 5:21:52 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Incidentally Oliver P. has just suggested to me a very intriguing and plausible explanation for what's happening here, but I won't steal his thunder."

Thanks. But so far, you've been doing the work ☺ In any case, we've both taken the approach that there must be some logical reason why it is so.

The general (potential) conclusion - which definitely bears further testing - is that the color board seems to work correctly for Rec 709, but not Rec 2020 (HDR). Conversely, the wheels (midtones primarily) seem right for Rec 2020, but not Rec 709.

That's a pretty preliminary opinion, right now. But if that's the case, then Apple should release some workflow white paper clarifying the issue.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 2, 2018 at 5:32:13 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 2, 2018 at 5:32:34 pm

Just to add some illustration for Oliver's very ingenious theory (which I strongly suspect is correct), here are some screenshots:

Expected gamma curve using the Color Board in Rec.709:



Unexpected gamma curve using the Color Wheels in Rec.709:



Expected gamma curve using the Color Wheels in Rec.2020:



Unexpected gamma curve using the Color Board in Rec.2020:



Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 2, 2018 at 8:46:20 pm

Typical modern internet kerfluffle.

People see something that doesn’t conform to their expectations - and the wild speculation and fantasizing begins.

This reminds me EXACTLY of 2011 when X was released.

The traditional users went all “hair on fire” screaming about how Apple had made a huge tragic mistake and ruined professional editing.

Of course they hadn’t. Just produced a new version of it that had different utilities and functions for a new type of editorial thinking.

This may be precisely in the same tradition.

Maybe it’s the Rec2020 thing Simon and Oliver are discussing.

Maybe it’s Apple looking at and reimagining how grading could be simplified and improved for a changing industry where for every theatrical movie, there’s 10,000 internet videos delivered.

The only thing I know for sure is that for 30 years now when I’ve put my faith in Apples technical development vision, the resulting ratio of hits to strikeouts has been excellent.

So I’m still willing to put my personal productivity bets there, happily.

Already this thing that started out as “Apple Screwed Up!!!!” - is rapidly backpedaling into “Apple has approached the need for modern color grading somewhat differently.”

The last time they did that, my life got easier - and I started making more money with less effort.

I’m OK with that.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 2, 2018 at 9:10:32 pm

[Bill Davis] "Already this thing that started out as “Apple Screwed Up!!!!” - is rapidly backpedaling into “Apple has approached the need for modern color grading somewhat differently.” "

Can I just go on record yet again as saying that I have not claimed or wanted to claim that "Apple Screwed Up"?

Thank you.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 2, 2018 at 10:43:39 pm

I totally respect that misimpression was never your intent, Simon.

Sadly, the web beast has a process of its own.

Everywhere I go online today in the X community, I see posts sbout how the FCP X new color grading is “broken” or “sub professional” or “needs bug fixing, stat.”

The fact that the follow up posts from the smartest practioners tend to challenge the simplicity of that assessment, barely matters.

The web doesn’t care. The narrative is set.

The teeming editorial masses have their headline to chew on. Screw the actual harder technical analysis.

IS it actually “broken?”
Or just “different?”
How do you tell anymore?

It’s the new reality. Whether we like it or not.

PR has now morphed into PI.
Public relations sat between the manufacturer and the press who’s job it was to help interpret with experience and wisdom the truth of the sellers claims.

Now sowing distrust is simply this eras MOST effective strategy.

In Politics, in Marketing - ANYWHERE there’s a competitive buck to be made.
The charge is on page 1 - the technical retraction on page 30.

That “road to success” lesson was forged in politics - now it’s everywhere.
FIRST make people concerned or worried - THEN you’re more likely to change their behavior.

Our new world.

Happy new year.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 2, 2018 at 10:46:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "Now sowing distrust is simply this eras MOST effective strategy. "

How true that is.

And how very damaging to the fundamental fabric of our social interactions - at every level.

Would it were not so. The internet has a lot to answer for.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 3, 2018 at 1:44:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "Everywhere I go online today in the X community, I see posts sbout how the FCP X new color grading is “broken” or “sub professional” or “needs bug fixing, stat.” "

For months now you have been badgering this forum as a place that is inherently hostile to FCPX and lauding the other internet sites as bastions of "good-speak." Now, suddenly, those idealic forums full of the FCPX faithful are a mob of jabbering hysterics and this forum is a model of reasonable inquiry. Funny how that goes.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 2, 2018 at 11:25:02 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Can I just go on record yet again as saying that I have not claimed or wanted to claim that "Apple Screwed Up"?"

I think these conversations are awesome. Thanks for putting in the time to do the video.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 2, 2018 at 9:51:51 pm

[Bill Davis] "Typical modern internet kerfluffle.
People see something that doesn’t conform to their expectations - and the wild speculation and fantasizing begins.
This reminds me EXACTLY of 2011 when X was released. "


That's just not right. Have you read any of the discussion? There are people here and on Facebook commenting who know what color correction is and what it's supposed to do. If Apple has done something "out of the box" then they owe their users some explanation or white paper for best practices. Right now the new color tools are different and add some extra features. But there are clearly some things not quite right with the color wheels. That needs some explanation.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 3, 2018 at 1:54:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "The only thing I know for sure is that for 30 years now when I’ve put my faith in Apples technical development vision, the resulting ratio of hits to strikeouts has been excellent. So I’m still willing to put my personal productivity bets there, happily. "

It is no big deal if there is an error in the color wheels - new features are a petry dish for bugs. The only problem comes from those being in denial about the problem - Apple can't fix what it doesn't realize is broken. The only danger lies in silence.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 3, 2018 at 7:53:46 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The only problem comes from those being in denial about the problem - Apple can't fix what it doesn't realize is broken. The only danger lies in silence."

I would argue, Herb, that the greater threat is spreading misinformation under the guise of accurate discussion.

This might well be a BUG.

It also might be an alternate rational and defensible choice on Apples part.

If so the leap here to pre-define it as a “BUG” - is the central issue I’m addressing.

If it IS - that will be confirmed.

If it ISN’T the damage to the softwares public perception will be all that remains.

And that’s not cool if the premise proves to be false.

That’s exactly what happened to X in its first year. It’s depths we’re hidden behind the equally flawed quick meme of iMovie Pro.

This excerpt from Phil Pan (a qualified color scientist whom I quoted with permission in another thread) is one small indication that this might NOT be a BUG at all, but rather a rational alternative software design choice.

He wrote:

Avid is the oldest digital video software company on the block and its tools are laden with legacy items that will not be removed until the last user from the old analogue broadcast days retires. It makes zero sense in 2018 to use analogue-days nomenclature and units; nor does it for Final Cut to still show a waveform monitor that expresses picture excursion in IRE units, with antiquated concepts such as ‘superblack’ and ‘superwhite’. But the FCP team didn’t have much of a choice, since it needed to compete with Avid in what had become a buttoned-up, conservative market.

AND

Now, if there are problematic naming conventions in FCPs various colour tools, one shouldn’t panic. As is the case for Avid, there are legacy reasons for the naming conventions to be messy. What matters is that you understand which parameter does what to your image. In time, as the industry evolves, Apple will be in a position to ditch the old names and abide by a more coherent standard.

These are excerpts from his full, complex post that I pasted above so that these excerpts can be read in full context.

My point is there MAY be a bug - or there may be nothing of the sort.

It’s YOU who was triggered to attach the terms “error” and “bug” and “broken” to this discussion in your post.

So that’s clearly the top level impression this thread has spiked for you.

IF it proves to be none of those things, just understand you are the guy who ends up spreading the FUD.

Not clarifying things.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Neil Goodman
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 3, 2018 at 8:21:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "Avid is the oldest digital video software company on the block and its tools are laden with legacy items that will not be removed until the last user from the old analogue broadcast days retires. It makes zero sense in 2018 to use analogue-days nomenclature and units; nor does it for Final Cut to still show a waveform monitor that expresses picture excursion in IRE units, with antiquated concepts such as ‘superblack’ and ‘superwhite’. But the FCP team didn’t have much of a choice, since it needed to compete with Avid in what had become a buttoned-up, conservative market.

AND

Now, if there are problematic naming conventions in FCPs various colour tools, one shouldn’t panic. As is the case for Avid, there are legacy reasons for the naming conventions to be messy. What matters is that you understand which parameter does what to your image. In time, as the industry evolves, Apple will be in a position to ditch the old names and abide by a more coherent standard."


What does this have to do with wether this a bug/vs intended feature.

You really think the team at apple cares what Avid names there shit? I think apple showed it gives zero f#$%s about naming conventions right out of the gate with X.

Why do full fledged Color correction suites like Davinci and Baselight, etc use the same lingo? Got nothing to do with Avid.


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 4, 2018 at 11:05:07 pm

[Neil Goodman] "Why do full fledged Color correction suites like Davinci and Baselight, etc use the same lingo? Got nothing to do with Avid."

Again, you are quoting as if those are my opinions..

They are the opinion of a color scientist who knows boatloads more than I do about this stuff.

I’m just trying to make sense of the current criticism of the X approach to color tools n 10.4.

That’s all.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 4, 2018 at 11:36:54 pm

[Bill Davis] "I’m just trying to make sense of the current criticism of the X approach to color tools n 10.4."

Because they work very weirdly, and the same processes work expectedly in one space, but not in another. This also goes for the Color Board, so it is not limited to "X's color approach in 10.4" but rather legacy tools that have already been developed.

If you hit the play button and the timeline started to rewind in 5x speed, would you think that Apple reimagined that play button or that maybe there's an issue?

Have you shown the Facebook society this post?

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/99802#99839


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 3, 2018 at 8:24:28 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 3, 2018 at 8:25:02 pm

[Bill Davis] "This might well be a BUG."

Dear all,

Please, please, please stop calling it a "bug".

There is nothing more guaranteed to get developers wanting to ignore you (and worse) than when you call it that without having the full picture.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Michael Hancock
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 3, 2018 at 8:28:49 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "There is nothing more guaranteed to get developers wanting to ignore you (and worse) than when you call it that without having the full picture.
"


If only we had the full picture from someone that would actually know what's going on. Like, from Apple, maybe? ☺

Did they learn nothing from the launch of FCPX, about launching a product that's different from everything else out there, without any info to explain the whats and whys?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 3, 2018 at 9:09:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "If it ISN’T the damage to the softwares public perception will be all that remains."

And I will argue that your ONLY concern is public perception - not how this issue (is it OK to call it an "issue" - or is there some other "correct speech" I need to use) effects editors.

[Bill Davis] "My point is there MAY be a bug - or there may be nothing of the sort.

It’s YOU who was triggered to attach the terms “error” and “bug” and “broken” to this discussion in your post.

So that’s clearly the top level impression this thread has spiked for you.

IF it proves to be none of those things, just understand you are the guy who ends up spreading the FUD.

Not clarifying things. "


Yes I used those terms, never in an accusing way, trying to assuage your fears because "even IF" - that's the qualifier - the worst is true, it's still no big deal - NBD.

And no matter if this proves to be a software "cockroach" or Apple simply coming up with a unique implementation of the color wheel paradigm - either way it has to be addressed by Apple. Insect or not, genius innovation or not, there is confusion out there and sweeping it under the rug does not make it go away. You want greater acceptance of FCPX - then encourage open communication. I repeat - silence is the only enemy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 4, 2018 at 11:22:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] "there is confusion out there and sweeping it under the rug does not make it go away."

Life is FULL of confusion, Herb.

Some natural - some generated.

I just posted a MacBreak from Steve and Mark that’s one of the early communication pieces that may be helping people understand some of Apples approach with this VERY new implementation of Color Correction/Grading.

I’m sure more will follow.

For those of us without a color science background - looks like 10.4 might help us explore color options in some interesting ways - even if it won’t instantly make any of us professional colorists or manage to TOTALLY replace Baselight across the industry - a thing I highly doubt was ever Apples intent.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 5, 2018 at 12:43:28 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jan 5, 2018 at 1:33:37 am

[Bill Davis] "For those of us without a color science background - looks like 10.4 might help us explore color options in some interesting ways - even if it won’t instantly make any of us professional colorists or manage to TOTALLY replace Baselight across the industry - a thing I highly doubt was ever Apples intent."

All we've been asking for is why the new tools work in a non-standard fashion. If there's any logic behind how they behave, let's know what the best practices should be. The fact that the color wheels do not work the same in different color spaces indicates a definite issue.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Neil Goodman
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery - The Solution?
on Jan 5, 2018 at 3:31:01 am

[Bill Davis] "Apples approach with this VERY new implementation of Color Correction/Grading.
"


The approach is actually very old school, lol.

The color boards were a VERY new implementation of color correction/grading. They essentially just gave us back the Color App in a new, improved, and integrated way. Definitely cannot complain about that and I'm sure the bug will be fixed eventually.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 7:43:23 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I'd love to hear your thoughts."

Feels kinda buggy to me, but couldn't it be that Apple isn't using a Lift/Gamma/Gain calculation for the "brightness" parameters on Master, Shadows, Midtones, and Highlights?

There is also a "Mix" parameter on each control of Master, Shadows, Midtones, and Highlights (MSMH). This would suggest some other form of calculation if you are mixing the original image with each MSMH parameters, and then allow mixing in between those factors. This is perhaps why the Color Board is different and uses different math (more traditional Lift/Gamma/Gain calcs as you have demonstrated) but you also can't 'mix' the different values of the Color Board controls like you can with the Color Wheels.



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 8:25:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There is also a "Mix" parameter on each control of Master, Shadows, Midtones, and Highlights (MSMH)."

This is a really basic function.

You can see it in any Apple filter.

It's basically asking "how much of this effect do you want to apply, between 100% and zero?"

Again very simple maths.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 9:41:45 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "This is a really basic function.

You can see it in any Apple filter. "


Except the Color Board.

[Simon Ubsdell] "Again very simple maths."

I'm sure it is, but it is odd that this behavior is present on the wheels and not the board. It suggests (and I have no idea what I am talking about, by the way) there is different math at play, or perhaps different ways of determining (or in this case, ignoring) the shadow, midtone, highlight range instead of pivoting on 0 (gain) and 1(lift) and sweeping the middle (gamma). As you allude, Apple loves to change the names and functions, and often without much explanation.

I am not on Facebook either, so I can't see the other discussion, wherever it is happening.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 10:09:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Except the Color Board. "

True. But there really is no reason why it shouldn't be there except that they decided not to implement it. I don't think we can read anything into that decision.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm sure it is, but it is odd that this behavior is present on the wheels and not the board. It suggests (and I have no idea what I am talking about, by the way) there is different math at play, or perhaps different ways of determining (or in this case, ignoring) the shadow, midtone, highlight range instead of pivoting on 0 (gain) and 1(lift) and sweeping the middle (gamma)."

Have a look at the screenshots I posted on my "Solution?" post above and see what you think.

I am certainly still leaving open the option that Apple have adopted a different model here but I am starting to wonder if the solution isn't quite a lot simpler.

I haven't really had enough time to look at this properly though so I am not going to commit to any definitive theory ...

My problem is that I can't see the virtue in the way that the Wheels behave in Rec.709, whereas in Rec.2020 they make complete sense and conform to what I would expect.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 11:26:26 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I am certainly still leaving open the option that Apple have adopted a different model here but I am starting to wonder if the solution isn't quite a lot simpler."

Yes, like an over looked calculation variable (or as some might say, a bug!). ☺

[Simon Ubsdell] "My problem is that I can't see the virtue in the way that the Wheels behave in Rec.709, whereas in Rec.2020 they make complete sense and conform to what I would expect."

I don't really know either, but it seems sorta buggy. It is definitely worth reporting to Apple to see if they implement a fix or decide that it's correct as is. :)


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Tim Wilson
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 1:02:42 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is definitely worth reporting to Apple to see if they implement a fix or decide that it's correct as is. :)"

The question is, how would we know the difference between "unfixed bug" and "intended feature"? 😂 I mean, it's like they'd have to, like, SAY something or something.


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Bill Davis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 1:24:35 am

Thankfully, folks from the ProApps team will be at the next LACPUG meeting - so we can maybe ask them directly if they have any guidance on this.

Things do change - if slowly.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 2:08:17 am

[Tim Wilson] "I mean, it's like they'd have to, like, SAY something or something."

Or!

It’s fixed in the next dot release without a word being said, like it never happened. :)


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Brett Sherman
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 2:24:31 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "My problem is that I can't see the virtue in the way that the Wheels behave in Rec.709, whereas in Rec.2020 they make complete sense and conform to what I would expect."

This.

It makes no sense that Apple would want the color wheels to behave differently depending on which color space you're using. I'd say this clearly identifies it as a "bug." And as someone who has very little knowledge of color correction, there is no way I'd want to correct with the way it works in Rec.709. Of course I'm happily plugging away on the curves. I usually set my black and white levels with that as I can operate faster without having to switch interfaces. Though I know it's better to just use the curves just for "shaping" for lack of a better term.

--------------------------
Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it's video related I'll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 2, 2018 at 8:30:15 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 2, 2018 at 8:36:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "but couldn't it be that Apple isn't using a Lift/Gamma/Gain calculation for the "brightness" parameters on Master, Shadows, Midtones, and Highlights?"

"Brightness" is an offset control. You're simply adding the control value to the pixel value:

pixelValue+controlValue

Offset is very useful for grading but it's not going to replace the Lift/Gamma/Gain concept ...

Edit: I should add that just because Apple give a familiar name to something, we should always be very cautious about assuming it shares the same function. Changing the meaning of names is what they like to do.

One prominent voice on that FB thread argued to me that what Apple were doing here was SMH - presumably because he was misled by the naming convention.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 3, 2018 at 11:44:57 pm

Bug, feature? What does it look like in practical application? Graduated grey is handy to show this but I'm curious if it is useful to use this grading algorithm on say log footage.

Because of the different behavior in the different color space I tend to think it's a bug. The two color spaces do not have different behaviors for lift, gain & gamma in any other system. If it's a feature, then it is entirely fair for users to expect Apple to explain why they have deviated from standard processing in one color space and not another.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 4, 2018 at 12:05:13 am

[Michael Gissing] "Graduated grey is handy to show this but I'm curious if it is useful to use this grading algorithm on say log footage. "

I've used it a bit and the correction is functional but nothing impressive. Because you are chasing the unwanted level changes, you end up doing more correction moves than necessary. For exposure and saturation, the Color Board is more accurate. Overall Curves is probably the tool to use.

I've found the best approach to the Color Wheels is a counter-clockwise workflow. Use the Master to pin the blacks at the bottom. Then expand the image using Highlights. Midtones tends to function like black stretch in old cameras. So next, adjust Mids to gain more brightness in the lower 2/3 of the image. Finally, use Shadow to bring the blacks back down a bit (again).

Grading in Resolve, even with a mouse, is waaaaaaay faster and better looking.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 4, 2018 at 12:41:35 am

[Michael Gissing] "Bug, feature? What does it look like in practical application? Graduated grey is handy to show this but I'm curious if it is useful to use this grading algorithm on say log footage. "

Much differently:
















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Michael Gissing
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 4, 2018 at 1:31:49 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Jan 4, 2018 at 1:33:34 am

So it's a bug.

Thanks Oliver & Jeremy for the feedback


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Sven-Jan Hägnemo
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 4, 2018 at 2:25:39 am

Seems Apple's in a hurry nowadays, neither FCPX 10.4 nor High Sierra 10.13.2 are fully baked yet.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 4, 2018 at 3:07:58 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 4, 2018 at 4:10:06 pm

Hi Michael,

My advice, if you want to grade Alexa LogC (without a LUT) using the color wheels, is not to touch the Shadows control.

Set the black level with the Midtones control and adjust the Highlights as required.

If you try setting the blacks with the Shadows control first, you will make life more difficult than it needs to be.

And of course, use a first instance of the CW to balance the shot and only apply your look to another instance or instances.

Edit: I don't mean to suggest there is anything anomalous about this. In fact, it shows that the Midtones correction is indeed a true gamma correction, and it's gamma that is going to flatten out the Log curve and get you to a balanced place.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Claude Lyneis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 4, 2018 at 8:22:10 pm

For a while I have been using the Chromatic plug-in, but may need to switch to the Apple color system. If I grade 4k in Chromatic and then try to compress to 1080 p for the web, the compressor spends something like 2 hours for a 7 minute piece using a single processor probably to deal with the color grading. Only near the end does it utilize the four cores properly. Without the color grading, it does the compression much faster.

Any experience with the new Apple color system and Compressor?


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 4, 2018 at 8:46:59 pm

[Claude Lyneis] "If I grade 4k in Chromatic and then try to compress to 1080 p for the web, the compressor spends something like 2 hours for a 7 minute piece using a single processor probably to deal with the color grading"

I would suggest a 2-stage process. Export 4K to 4K ProRes or 4K to 1080 ProRes from FCPX. Then in Compressor create the H264 version for the web from the ProRes master file. This might be a lot faster. Or if you don't really ever need a 4K version, just work in 1080.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Claude Lyneis
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 6:40:21 pm

Thanks Oliver. While your suggestion is probably the most practical, I am still evaluating whether filming in 4k for eventual 1080 p carries enough advantages to outweigh the extra time, effort and storage. I did a test using 4k (150 Mb/s) color graded in Apple's 10.4 FCPX color system and then compressed it to 1080 p for the web. This went fast enough (1 min video took 6 min to compress on my mid 11 27" iMac) and it used all the cores all the time as opposed to what happened with a similar project graded in Chromatic.

So in this way, I give Apple Color a plus. Overall, I like it and think I can do what I need without Chromatic or Color Finale. Not having floating panels in the way is a big plus.


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 4, 2018 at 9:36:46 pm

Hi Simon. I grade in Resolve. I don't have X but I get projects from editors who use it and they often ask me for advice on their simple jobs where they have to do a basic grade so I need to understand it.

I was curious if the way X's new tools in rec 709 were somehow trying to simplify grading log type camera originals but not so. Like you I was trying to figure if there was intent in the way they have done it but it just looks like a bug to me. When software behaves differently between the two color spaces and requires more not less effort to get a result, plus it acts differently to all known grading systems, then I'm happy to call it for what it is.


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Mike Bonner
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 8:03:14 pm

Hey everyone, I was just as excited to see color wheels in fcpx as anyone else, but now I'm thoroughly confused.

Has anyone looked at bars and the vector scope with this issue?

After reading through this very exciting thread, I wanted to see what the adjustments did to more real life footage. But before I even got to making adjustments, the color of the footage seemed off. The images were desaturated, and the signals on the scopes appeared to be "clamped".

I imported some old footage that I exported out of an older version of fcpx, as well as a jpg test chart.

Not matching up with the visual saturation and scope trace I was seeing in Resolve, I checked them in PP and MC as well. Resolve, PP, and MC gave the expected results, fcpx, not so much. Here are some screen shots.


















I don't know what's going on here, but I can see the potential for problems, obviously. Thinking you need to boost the colors, and rendering out an image way too saturated. Or, maybe it will all even out in the end as it goes through the render process, but even so, you would be doing more work than you need to do.

I don't know, maybe there is a new preference switch that I haven't clicked on or something, but I really don't have any confidence right now on how fcpx is handling my media.

It could be my system or setup, so it be nice to know if anyone else is seeing similar results. Thanks.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 8:51:25 pm

[Mike Bonner] "It could be my system or setup, so it be nice to know if anyone else is seeing similar results. Thanks."

First of all, be very, very careful in making any color judgements based on the viewer, as well as screen grabs from the UI. Do you have an i/o output to a broadcast monitor for a neutral comparison? Because of Apple's Color Profile, different applications deal differently with the viewer image and don't match each other. This includes taking screen grabs.

Export a ProRes file from each and then compare the various exports against each other. In theory these should all match if settings are neutral, even if they looked different from one viewer to another. I have found these differences to be worse with non-Apple displays than with Apple-branded displays. Their "secret sauce" I suppose.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Mike Bonner
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 10:26:07 pm

[Oliver Peters] "First of all, be very, very careful in making any color judgements based on the viewer"

Thanks, Oliver, I definitely defer to you for experience in color; I am aware of this issue.

What struck me though was how different applications handled the footage. I know that Resolve's viewer is supposed to bypass the OS profiles, and I tested the deliverables in VLC, which I believe does the same. I was not aware that PP and MC were capable of doing the same.

What I did not mention was that I tried to do a few tests as simply as possible, recreating if you will, what most FCPX users would experience (i.e., no broadcast video monitor). And, it just seems FC is doing something very different than the other NLE's (operating under the same OS color profile)

Anyway, I'm taking this discussion off topic. Thanks for the responses.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 9:05:22 pm

[Mike Bonner] "After reading through this very exciting thread, I wanted to see what the adjustments did to more real life footage."

I did that here with luma values using the wheel "brightness", then the color board exposure values. This was with log footage and no LUT:

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/99896


[Mike Bonner] "Not matching up with the visual saturation and scope trace I was seeing in Resolve, I checked them in PP and MC as well. Resolve, PP, and MC gave the expected results, fcpx, not so much."

Try clicking the scope button with the waveform on it and change the scale from 100% to 133%.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 9:36:51 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jan 5, 2018 at 9:37:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "the wheel "brightness""

Could I jump in here and mention that Apple, in their inimitable style that we all love so well, are using the term "Brightness" in a non-technical sense right across the wheels, apart from the Master control which is indeed a Brightness or Offset control.

The Shadows "Brightness" is in fact what is conventionally known as Lift, the Midtones "Brightness" is Gamma, and the Highlights "Brightness" is Gain.

I've touched on this before but maybe not made that fully clear.

The naming convention doesn't of course matter one iota - except insofar as it can confuse anyone who is expecting the accepted meaning.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 9:53:23 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "The Shadows "Brightness" is in fact what is conventionally known as Lift, the Midtones "Brightness" is Gamma, and the Highlights "Brightness" is Gain.
"


Yes. I am referring to how Apple names it in the filter:




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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 9:54:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yes. I am referring to how Apple names it in the filter:"

Yes, so was I.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 9:55:23 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "The naming convention doesn't of course matter one iota - except insofar as it can confuse anyone who is expecting the accepted meaning."

Too kind to Apple. The naming does matter and this is yet another example of Apple changing for changes sake. They are years late to the party in adding proper grade tools so to change name convention is either trying to fool the user that somehow theirs is new and superior or just contempt for established convention which accurately describes the process.

Every grade tool I have used since telecine grading live to air in the 1970s uses the correct naming. If Apple has no respect for accurate terminology, then no amount of justification from acolytes will cut the mustard.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 9:57:58 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Too kind to Apple. The naming does matter and this is yet another example of Apple changing for changes sake."

Is it not rather a case of Apple trying to make the naming as un-intimidating as possible to the average user?

That's how I interpreted this decision.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Michael Gissing
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 10:22:24 pm
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Jan 5, 2018 at 11:06:01 pm

[Simon Ubsdell]"Is it not rather a case of Apple trying to make the naming as un-intimidating as possible to the average user? That's how I interpreted this decision."

Dumbing down language is not going to help the user when they deal with any other NLE, which is the real world for most of us. How long does it take to come to terms with a word like gamma? Once learned it makes it possible to go anywhere in the hardware and software world and instantly understand what we are dealing with. Isn't that less intimidating?

I'm sure Apple is happy to add to confusion if it helps people with the illusion that Apple just works. By all means change naming when genuine innovation creates a new paradigm but this is not anything like that.

EDIT: I know you are being devil's advocate here Simon so I am not directing this criticism at you.


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Mike Bonner
Re: The Color Wheels Mystery ...
on Jan 5, 2018 at 10:09:01 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Try clicking the scope button with the waveform on it and change the scale from 100% to 133%."

Yes, Jeremy, you are right about this. Having a look back at Apple's support pages, it's stated when using 75% contrast color bars to set the vector scope to 133%. Although, this seems like an odd default setting while working in a Rec709 project, but oh well, I guess that is a discussion that should have been had 5 years ago. But, I'm put a little more at ease using that setting.


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