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Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side

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Claude Lyneis
Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 23, 2017 at 8:14:25 pm

With all the discussions of hack a Macs and advantages and disadvantages of the new iMacPro, I thought this video on using Adobe Premiere on a high powered pc workstation was interesting. A bit off topic since FCPX doesn't run on it, but if a discussion of a Surface Pro can run for weeks, why not?





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Bob Zelin
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 23, 2017 at 9:49:33 pm

Hi Claude
Oliver Peters showed me this excellent article. This does not mean "throw out your Mac's". He specifically states that he has a ProRes delivery requirement (as most of us do). It's just that modern PC's - be it Dell and HP, or ASUS, MSI, and the other Chinese brands, are making GREAT STUFF. I would like to see a consortium group of users hold Apple executives "hostage" (this is an expression of speech - I am not suggesting that someone does something illegal) and FORCE them to answer the question "why won't you fully cooperate with NVidia - it's not like it will cost you any money, and people will still buy your computers". My introduction to the original FCP was because of the AJA Kona and original AJA I/O products, which happened because of Apples cooperation with third party companies. I wish this policy would return.

There is no question that many Chinese and Taiwanese companies are making incredible modern computers (let's face it - where do you think the iMac Pro is being manufactured). It's a shame that "we" have to suffer financially and technically, because Apple simply won't be cooperative with "third party companies" as they have done in the past. I assume this is all because of "the bottom line".

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 23, 2017 at 11:35:59 pm

[Bob Zelin] "I would like to see a consortium group of users hold Apple executives "hostage" (this is an expression of speech - I am not suggesting that someone does something illegal) and FORCE them to answer the question "why won't you fully cooperate with NVidia "

Yeah right, how about we hold ADOBE to account for NOT making their software run better on Ati cards?

[Bob Zelin] "and people will still buy your computers". "

[Bob Zelin] "It's a shame that "we" have to suffer financially

Sorry, how do we suffer financially?

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 1:52:18 am

[Bob Zelin] "I would like to see a consortium group of users hold Apple executives "hostage" (this is an expression of speech - I am not suggesting that someone does something illegal) and FORCE them to answer the question "why won't you fully cooperate with NVidia"
How about we hold NVIDIA executives hostage and tell them to drop their proprietary CUDA API and focus on adding better support of Open CL/GL so that no one has to work with any vendor... the vendors just need to support the open standards like ATI does and may the best hardware win! 😉

I'm sure Apple has better things to do than to retool their graphics engine for proprietary API's.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Steve Connor
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 23, 2017 at 11:33:29 pm

Premiere NEEDS to run on a fast PC, it's actually a bit of a dog on a Mac, it's playback performance is considerably worse than FCPX on a Mac, If I was forced to use PPro as my main NLE I'd probably switch to a PC too.

Fortunately I'm an FCPX user so my NLE of choice has great playback performance on my Mac.

Seriously shouldn't these discussions be on the Premiere Pro forum? Couldn't Tim give us a "move to Premiere Pro Forum" button

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Michael Gissing
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 2:57:24 am

From where I sit outside the bubble of any specific OS or hardware dependency, it's a bit strange to see the 'dark side' being used to describe the major OS and hardware option. Apple is the niche and forums that still like to think they are truly representative by being Mac centric have missed the move. Michael Cioni wrote an article a while back explaining why he is moving to Windows and other hardware alternatives to Apple. It seems to me that Phillip Bloom is later to the trend.


And sorry John R, but asking us to feel sorry for Apple having to adopt a proprietary API is a bit of a stretch. Every other software company seems to have no trouble with either CUDA or Open CL/GL. Apple is the king of forcing everyone to their proprietary formats. Why did we need their constantly changing xml format when AAF already existed? Why do they need different hard drive formats so we need to buy software to handle their format. Why when I plug any drive into my Linux box can I read and write to everything but HFS+? Why is it a hack to run their OS an someone else's hardware unlike Windows and Linux? Why is ProRes a closed format unlike DNx? Why do they use patent laws more aggressively to shut down competition. Sorry, writing their graphics engines to deal with CUDA should be considered normal, not an arduous task. No sympathy.


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Bill Davis
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 9:38:25 am

For many and various personal reasons, I’m largely going to stay away from this thread.

Except, perhaps to note that those big ass blue backlit fans kinda remind me of that very first “prequel” year at NAB for RED, when everything looked like it came from a misplaced R. Geiger “Alien” sketchbook.

I wonder if a design and marketing aesthetic that looks to be aimed at teen gamers is any challenge when a company is trying to gain credibility in the sort of design space that Adobe and Apple were both born in? It’s kinda weird to see.

Then again, if the object is entirely to go fast - “Big Daddy” Don Garletts probably beats even a Lamborghini off the line.

Maybe someone will go full retro and we’ll see a “Rat Fink” flag flying over a booth at next years NAB promoting “ultimate hot rod” computing for video pros...

I can almost smell the nitro fumes!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 9:53:53 am

[Bill Davis] "I can almost smell the nitro fumes!"

I totally agree....with your first sentence. If the appearance of a computer is so much more important than the performance then stick with Apple. No-one does classy like them.

If you watched the video, you would know that Phillip prefers to spend time with his cat than watch the Apple render bar. The lights on the fan can be disconnected btw.


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Steve Connor
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 10:06:54 am

Funny thing is that even on my 2013 MacBook Pro I don’t really find myself waiting a long time for renders so I imagine people with newer Mac systems don’t either.

I’ve Spent so many years enjoying the discussions on this forum but I think I’m done now, it’s clearly dominated by PC users, trolls and people who know very little about FCPX. Shame really but I’ll pop back if I ever want some PC buying advice

So long and thanks for all the fish

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Joe Marler
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 1:46:05 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Phillip prefers to spend time with his cat than watch the Apple render bar."

That was an *Adobe* Premiere render bar, which Philip described as "painful". Philip's machine was a mid-range 2013 6-core D500 Mac Pro. That may have been OK in 2013 for 1080 content, but it's not OK for large amounts of H264 4k if Premiere is being used, and even FCPX can be sluggish since Xeon doesn't have Quick Sync acceleration for H264. From his blog it's obvious he shoots a lot of H264 4k from his drones and smaller cameras, and this is shown in the outtakes from his Master Class.

Ironically despite the vast increase in hardware performance of his 10-core GTX1080Ti Windows machine, it wasn't that much faster than the 6-core nMP at exporting 4k from the Panasonic EV1 -- about 50 sec vs 65 sec. I suspect a 12-core D700 nMP would have been faster.

He uses Neat Video a lot and that's slow on any machine. His 10-core Windows machine was much faster than the 6-core nMP: 50 sec vs 3.5 min -- but he's comparing a four-year-old mid-range Mac Pro to a fairly high end Windows machine. Neat Video has previously said their algorithm scales poorly across dual GPUs. So in this case Philip was effectively using a single D500 GPU vs a GTX-1080 Ti, which is about 3.5x faster. It would be interesting to see that exact test on a 10-core Vega64 iMac Pro.

But this is a problem largely of Apple's own making. Yes FCPX is blinding fast, esp on certain workflows and hardware, such as handling H264 on a 2017 top-spec iMac. But even FCPX can struggle on a 12-core D700 nMP if using 4k H264, or if using compute-intensive effects like Neat Video.

For years there's been a smugness in the FCPX community about how fast and efficient that software is, and if people struggling with Premiere performance issues on Macs would just switch to FCPX, everything would be great.

Well they aren't going to switch -- for perfectly valid reasons they like Premiere -- I used it for years myself and still have a CC subscription. Philip Bloom likes Premiere, he's used to it, and he's not going to change no matter how much faster or better FCPX is. Rather he'll just get better hardware, and if Apple doesn't make that hardware, they lose him as a customer. Philip's video perfectly described his dilemma and decision process.

What should scare Apple is how easy it is for people like Philip to move to Windows. He spends all his time in Premiere and that UI "surface" dominates the user experience. The underlying OS isn't that visible to someone editing video 10 hrs a day. They're smart enough to realize that PC hardware is cheaper, faster and upgradeable while maintaining largely the same experience at the application level.

I think Apple finally realized this and thus we have the iMac Pro and a new "modular" Mac Pro on the way. Had they moved quicker in this area Philip Bloom (and all those he represents) might still be an Apple customers.

There's a line of reasoning that Apple doesn't really care about competing in this area because the iPhone revenue dwarfs Mac products. But that's only as a percentage of total revenue. Mac-related revenue is nonetheless very high. If it was a separate company it would be bigger than Time Warner, Facebook, McDonald's or Northrop Grumman. Apple's Mac revenue is not that much smaller than Oracle's total revenue.


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greg janza
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 4:32:18 pm
Last Edited By greg janza on Dec 24, 2017 at 4:36:11 pm

[Joe Marler] "What should scare Apple is how easy it is for people like Philip to move to Windows. He spends all his time in Premiere and that UI "surface" dominates the user experience. The underlying OS isn't that visible to someone editing video 10 hrs a day. They're smart enough to realize that PC hardware is cheaper, faster and upgradeable while maintaining largely the same experience at the application level."

You've very eloquently stated what's at the core of a lot of the posts here from folks like myself who have made the switch to a PC. 25 years of being a loyal Apple customer was completely erased the moment I made the decision to switch to a PC. And that decision was a direct result of Apple's move to a limiting and non-upgradable product line.

And I agree that this fact should be concerning to Apple if in fact they actually want to retain the professional community. But whether Apple actually cares about the niche professional community is another debatable point.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Michael Gissing
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 11:00:33 pm

[Joe Marler] "That was an *Adobe* Premiere render bar"

And I thought I was a pedant.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 11:53:41 am
Last Edited By Craig Seeman on Dec 24, 2017 at 1:27:13 pm

I just have to ask that, given PPro, Resolve, Avid, all cross platform, all supposedly work better on PC where you can buy the systems exactly as you need from the many commercial computer retailers big and small, why do any such editors use Macs at all? If Macs are such a disadvantage to them, the choice is obvious. Why debate at all?

I prefer FCPX so my option is... Mac. End of story.

Apparently Adobe, Blackmagic, Avid have chose, at the moment, to date, to develop for the Mac so some viable subset of their customers are choosing to run on Macs.



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Claude Lyneis
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 7:55:29 pm

Although I started this thread, mainly because I thought Phillip Bloom's video was thought provoking, it certainly didn't make me jump ship. I have used Mac's since about 1985, through the good and bad times. Also, I took the FCPX fork in the road long ago and it serves my needs as an amateur film maker.

I plan to get a loaded new iMac as I just bought a Canon XF400 and plan to shoot in 4K. So while firmly in the Apple ecosphere, it is fun to look over the fence and see where the other fork has gone. Also, I am hoping the Apple promised Mac Pro will keep the momentum going for professional FCPX editors.


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Tony West
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 24, 2017 at 7:01:41 pm

I don't know, it looks like they offered him this box in hopes that he would do a cool review on it like he did. I would put this in a different category from a person that just went out and spent their own money on it.

He does great reviews, it's a win for him and the box maker. As he said, I got nothing to lo$e.

All things being equal though, if apple had offered him a free iMac pro and he said "no thanks" then that would have been a story.

Apple could have offered him one but they didn't. They picked Marques, who has a "huge" following. His iMP review is up
around 2 million compared to Bloom's vid that has 22k.

His large, young, hip following aside, Marques actually uses X. Unlike Bloom who uses Pr. I would have given it to Marques also.

It's a neat video for someone who is interested in Pr or pc's. I'm not currently interested in either, but I like Bloom's videos. He's an artist.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 26, 2017 at 2:26:51 am

I guess my response to all of this is similar to many political debates. You can "intelligently" state - "well, I am sticking with CS2018 and a HP Z840 or Boxx or Puget Systems because of this". And the other side can say "well, I am sticking with FCP X and an iMac Pro because of this".

Of course, I am neither of these people. I want it ALL to work. And I want to go to the BOARD OF DIRECTORS that really don't care either way, as long as their corporation makes huge profits on the stock market, and has a wonderful 2017 bonus for themselves (after all, it is time for a new private jet - isn't it ?) - and say "WHAT THE F#$$ is WRONG WITH YOU. Do you know WHO WE ARE? We are the ELITE of your user group, and WE are the ONLY ones that count - not your stupid iPad users, not your family - its US - US - PAY ATTENTION TO US. WE NEED THESE FEATURES, and you are going to do NOTHING else except pay attention to the PRO USERS, because WE put you where you are today.
Of course this is my fantasy, and they laugh at when they see posts like this (they never see posts like this - only their product managers do) - and our opinions really mean nothing. Just like the champion race car drivers mean nothing to the chairmen of Ford, GM and Chrysler, other than for a press event.

If you are a race car driver, you do whatever you do, to win that race. No matter what Ford, GM and Chrysler does.
We must do the same. You get the tools that you need. If "brand X " doesn't make it - you do what you need to do.

While I personally use Adobe, FCP X, Davinci Resolve, Cinema 4D, etc. - if it was not for AVID Media Composer and Digidesign Pro Tools, no one would give a crap about Apple. Does Tim Cook even know who AVID, Bill Warner and Eric Peters are ?

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Bernard Newnham
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 26, 2017 at 10:50:23 am

[Bob Zelin] "We must do the same. You get the tools that you need. If "brand X " doesn't make it - you do what you need to do. "

How long has this forum been around now? Six years? I came back to it recently to find that little had changed in a long time. It's a bit like people who say "I always buy Ford" "But you said you don't like the current models" "Yes, but I always buy Ford". They do exist. I'm not a psychologist, but I'm sure that one who was could write learned commentaries on that and similar instances here.

I've never had any kind of brand loyalty. I buy whatever suits for the job at hand, though I must admit that in a crowded equipment market I tend to lean towards Asus for computer parts. The one I avoid like the plague is the one that massively overcharges for everything and then stashes $250 billion on a desert island, doing nothing at all for society, or even it's shareholders. Not naming any names.

So as Bob says - do what you need to do - and forget brand loyalty, they have no loyalty to you.

Bernie


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Paul Golden
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 5:45:44 am

Got my iMac Pro yesterday. I just upgraded from a nMP 2013 (8 core/64gigs/dual D700) to the mid level iMac Pro (10 core/64 gigs/16 gb VRAM).

My impressions on day 1:
Very pretty machine, nice to have all the TB3 and USB 3 connections. Using all the USB3 and two of the TB3 ports.

FCPX: very smooth. Tried an HEVC export and worked really well. Will probably replace X264 for client WIPS (X264 fails on this machine)

Resolve: works well on 4.6K RAW from my Ursa Mini; still need to use caching for decent playback of anything with FX

After Effects: is there any machine where AE doesn’t suck at realtime playback? Had a 4.6K ProRes 444 timeline and with Mercury Transmit enabled, still can’t play a RENDERED timeline at speed where it’s downscaled to 1080p for the monitor. WTF is wrong with Adobe and realtime playback? I’ve been using AE for years and they’ve been promising RT improvements the whole time and it never gets much better.

I’m torn between learning Motion or Fusion (totally different workflows) but AE is still a great jack of all trades, so I will suffer some while longer. Apple has already shown that it can get a graphics program like Motion to play in real time, at least for simpler stuff.

Per Philip Bloom’s trip to the dark side, I understand wanting some more performance boost, but that box he bought is butt-ugly and soul destroying. I know as a “professional” that stuff shouldn’t matter, but I’d much rather have my iMac Pro than a beast like that lurking around my desk.


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 6:21:37 am

Bloom is an artist and I thought he had some nice shoots of the ugly box and the fans turning that looked cool. Glad to hear the iMac Pro is out and running.


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 4:01:34 pm

[Paul Golden] "I’m torn between learning Motion or Fusion (totally different workflows) but AE is still a great jack of all trades, so I will suffer some while longer. Apple has already shown that it can get a graphics program like Motion to play in real time, at least for simpler stuff."
I would recommend Motion which is more like AE workflow than the node based workflow of Fusion. I moved from AE to Motion and Motion was infinitely easier to use. You don't have to learn cryptic script commands like "wiggle" to get stuff to move. Motion has behaviors that you select from a menu and they just work. Way easier IMHO and just as powerful. I am completely Adobe Free (FCP X, Motion, Compressor, Affinity Photo, & Affinity Design).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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greg janza
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 4:07:08 pm

“I understand wanting some more performance boost, but that box he bought is butt-ugly and soul destroying. I know as a “professional” that stuff shouldn’t matter, but I’d much rather have my iMac Pro than a beast like that lurking around my desk.”

Does anyone still take the look of the box into account? I don’t care what the computer case looks like since I never look at it or even notice it.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Eric Santiago
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 4:23:01 pm

I had to prep a feature on an HP Z840.
Just hauling that thing around plus add displays and RAIDs was small apartment moving day :P


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Tony West
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 11:50:17 pm

[greg janza] "Does anyone still take the look of the box into account?"

I don't really Greg, but what I do take into account is a breakdown like John R. had in an earlier post. I can't say that I have seen a more detailed takedown of the pc experience. I know a lot of people have left apple for the pc but I know more people personally that tell me the kind of stories that John laid out.

It's not about apple being all that and a bag of chips, it's about reading stories from people fleeing from their pc experience and never looking back.

It's working for many though, so to each their own. Stories like his give me pause.


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greg janza
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 29, 2017 at 4:04:07 pm

Tony, John’s PC experience is by no means the norm and so it would be foolish to extrapolate that to the overall PC experience. The advancement of cloud computer technology has transformed the industry and allowed people to completely rethink how they work and to me that’s a real positive.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 30, 2017 at 6:02:21 pm

[greg janza] "John’s PC experience is by no means the norm and so it would be foolish to extrapolate that to the overall PC experience. "
Hmmm... I have been using a PC for over 35 years! Let me give you my "PC Experience": I used CP/M on my Apple ][+ with a Z80 card before the IBM PC was invented (the pre-cursor to PCDOS). I've used PCDOS 1.0 - 5.0, Windows 3.1, Windows 286/386, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Millennium, Windows NT, Windows XP, Windows 7, and Windows 10 (I wasn't foolish enough to use Vista or 8.0). I've bought PC's off the shelf. I've built my own expressly for video editing several times. I have pretty much seen it all. Maybe I'm not the norm? but what is?

Here is my PC experience that I know has happened to others in one form or another: Two days before I was supposed to demo my software at the National Association of Broadcasters convention, Microsoft decided to apply a .Net Framework update to my PC which rendered my compiler useless (I'm a software developer). There I was with two days remaining to get on a plane and my software wouldn't even compile! I was running around the shop trying to find a PC that hadn't been updated to move my work to and had to install my complete development environment on it which wasted an entire day. That's when I learned to turn off automatic updates and only allow an update to run after making a full backup of my computer in case something goes wrong (because eventually it will).

Guess what? Windows 10 doesn't allow you to turn off automatic updates! Oh, you can disable it in the Services app all you want and Microsoft will mysteriously re-enable it from time-to-time and continue to download updates without telling you because they obviously know best. (I've had it happen to me on VM's that I maintain for compatibility testing) Wait until you have a critical customer deadline and your PC stops working because Microsoft has applied an update without your consent that breaks the software that you depending on for your business. Because it will happen if you use Windows long enough. It has happened to me several times in my 33 years of using Windows since it was first introduced. Most of those times I've had a backup... once I didn't. It only takes once to impact your business. Yes, this could happen with a Mac but so far, Apple has allowed me to choose when to apply an update and Time Machine keeps my Mac backup updated hourly.

Then there is reformatting your Windows computer and re-installing all of the software every 3 -4 years. Windows computers get slower over time because the Registry gets larger and larger with every software package that you install and uninstall. After a while, it gets corrupt and things start behaving badly. The only solution is a reformat. Anyone who has used Windows for several years has encountered this. Why do you think there are so many registry cleaners on the market? (some of which do more harm than good) It's a horrible Microsoft design that Mac's don't have to deal with. My 2013 MacBook Pro runs just as fast today as it did the day I got it. No central registry to bog down performance. You probably haven't been using Windows long enough to experience this but you will over time. Yes, it's all shinny and new in the beginning but then it's downhill from there.

As I have said many times, you couldn't pay me enough to work on a Windows computer again. I've only used a Mac for the past 4 years but the experience has been very enjoyable and nothing like the problems I had with Windows. Windows 10 seems to be the worst with Microsoft declaring that it's now a "service" that they continuously update. Greg, I know you've been using Mac's for 25 years so maybe you have similar stories and I respect that you probably do. Maybe I need to spend 30 years on the Mac to have those kind of stories? Check back with me in 2043 and we'll compare notes. 😉

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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andy patterson
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 30, 2017 at 9:47:48 pm
Last Edited By andy patterson on Dec 31, 2017 at 5:53:58 am

[John Rofrano] "Here is my PC experience that I know has happened to others in one form or another: Two days before I was supposed to demo my software at the National Association of Broadcasters convention, Microsoft decided to apply a .Net Framework update to my PC which rendered my compiler useless (I'm a software developer). There I was with two days remaining to get on a plane and my software wouldn't even compile! I was running around the shop trying to find a PC that hadn't been updated to move my work to and had to install my complete development environment on it which wasted an entire day. That's when I learned to turn off automatic updates and only allow an update to run after making a full backup of my computer in case something goes wrong (because eventually it will)."

System restore did not work? I always have automatic updates disabled. The Mac OS X updates can also cause problems.


[John Rofrano] "Guess what? Windows 10 doesn't allow you to turn off automatic updates! Oh, you can disable it in the Services app all you want and Microsoft will mysteriously re-enable it from time-to-time and continue to download updates without telling you because they obviously know best. (I've had it happen to me on VM's that I maintain for compatibility testing) Wait until you have a critical customer deadline and your PC stops working because Microsoft has applied an update without your consent that breaks the software that you depending on for your business. Because it will happen if you use Windows long enough. It has happened to me several times in my 33 years of using Windows since it was first introduced. Most of those times I've had a backup... once I didn't. It only takes once to impact your business. Yes, this could happen with a Mac but so far, Apple has allowed me to choose when to apply an update and Time Machine keeps my Mac backup updated hourly."

They are disabled on my Windows 10 system.


[John Rofrano] "
Then there is reformatting your Windows computer and re-installing all of the software every 3 -4 years. Windows computers get slower over time because the Registry gets larger and larger with every software package that you install and uninstall. After a while, it gets corrupt and things start behaving badly. The only solution is a reformat. Anyone who has used Windows for several years has encountered this. Why do you think there are so many registry cleaners on the market? (some of which do more harm than good) It's a horrible Microsoft design that Mac's don't have to deal with."


I don't surf the internet on my editing PC. In fact I only connect to the internet about once every 30-40 days because of the creative cloud. My PC does not get slow. My Mac Mini has become a little slower since I bought it but it still edits video OK. I do a fresh reinstall about once every 2 years on my PC but not because the PC is slow. It is never slow. I do it for a fresh new installation of Creative Cloud. Keep in mind it is not hard. I do it 2 or 3 times total in the time I own the PC. The laptop I am using to write this has no antivirus or firewall. I go hog wild and willy nilly with my laptop when surfing the internet because there is no important information on it. I do a reformat on my laptop about once every 18 months. It does not need it but I like to do it.


[John Rofrano] "As I have said many times, you couldn't pay me enough to work on a Windows computer again. I've only used a Mac for the past 4 years but the experience has been very enjoyable and nothing like the problems I had with Windows."

You have to keep in mind not everyone has the same experience when using Windows as you have. Not to mention Apple has very limited options for the user.


[John Rofrano] "Windows 10 seems to be the worst with Microsoft declaring that it's now a "service" that they continuously update."

All operating systems get updates. Apple has been on OS X for over X years.


[John Rofrano] "Greg, I know you've been using Mac's for 25 years so maybe you have similar stories and I respect that you probably do. Maybe I need to spend 30 years on the Mac to have those kind of stories? Check back with me in 2043 and we'll compare notes."

Obviously not everyone sees Windows as the nightmare from Washington. We will all chose what works best for our needs. Keep in mind there are Windows Enterprise installations that run year after year without fail.



[John Rofrano] "Hmmm... I have been using a PC for over 35 years! Let me give you my "PC Experience": I used CP/M on my Apple ][+ with a Z80 card before the IBM PC was invented (the pre-cursor to PCDOS). I've used PCDOS 1.0 - 5.0, Windows 3.1, Windows 286/386, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Millennium, Windows NT, Windows XP, Windows 7, and Windows 10 (I wasn't foolish enough to use Vista or 8.0). I've bought PC's off the shelf. I've built my own expressly for video editing several times. I have pretty much seen it all. Maybe I'm not the norm? but what is?"

Vista and Window 8 worked great. Have you ever used FDISK? Have you ever changed the AGP aperture settings or the PCI latency settings?


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 4:44:13 pm

[andy patterson] "They are disabled on my Windows 10 system. "
Yes, but for how long? I disabled them on my Windows 10 VM and then one day I'm shutting it down and it says, "please don't turn off your computer, Windows is updating" and when I rebooted and checked, Windows Update was running again. So it doesn't stay disabled. Mind you... the setting was still on Disable but the process as Running! That is a scary thought!
[andy patterson] "Vista and Window 8 worked great."
Windows Vista was the laughing stock of the computer industry. Even Microsoft admitted it was horrible. Windows 7 was rushed out to make Vista go away. Windows 8 started the Metro debacle which is why I stuck with my Windows 7 desktop.
[andy patterson] "Have you ever used FDISK? "
Yes, just the other day in fact. I have Bootcamp with Windows 7 on my Mac Pro because I still have software that I must support and it wouldn't boot. I had to run FDISK C: /F to fix corrupt files. That's a big problem with Windows that macOS doesn't have to worry about. MacOS uses a journaled filesystem which means transaction logs are kept to rebuild files should they become corrupt. Windows has nothing like this and depending on how many times your Windows PC locks up and has to be cold started, files will become corrupt and it will stop booting. You should run FDISK (or the GUI version) regularly on a Windows PC to catch file corruption before it gets too bad.
[andy patterson] "Have you ever changed the AGP aperture settings or the PCI latency settings?"
Yes, but not since I owned a Readl3D Video Card.

I also spent a fair amount of time assigning Interrupts to my SoundBlaster card on the ISA BUS (before the plug-n-play PCI Bus was invented) Those were fun days debugging why your new game wouldn't run only to find out that your new graphics card and audio card were sharing the same interrupt. lol

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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andy patterson
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 6:56:41 pm

[John Rofrano] " [andy patterson] "They are disabled on my Windows 10 system. "

Yes, but for how long? I disabled them on my Windows 10 VM and then one day I'm shutting it down and it says, "please don't turn off your computer, Windows is updating" and when I rebooted and checked, Windows Update was running again. So it doesn't stay disabled. Mind you... the setting was still on Disable but the process as Running! That is a scary thought!"


My system never fails to shut down because of updates. Did you disable the updates as shown in the video below? I am thinking you did not.









[John Rofrano] " [andy patterson] "Vista and Window 8 worked great."

Windows Vista was the laughing stock of the computer industry. Even Microsoft admitted it was horrible. Windows 7 was rushed out to make Vista go away. Windows 8 started the Metro debacle which is why I stuck with my Windows 7 desktop."


I think you might be confused. How was the Metro Mode a debacle? It actually worked great. In fact the iPad iOS ripped off some of the feature of the Windows 8 Metro Mode. Windows 10 still has the Metro (touch screen) GUI. It is slightly different. Also Windows Vista worked just fine for myself and many others. Windows Vista actually gave Premiere Pro a little better performance than Windows 7. You will have to trust me on that one.


[John Rofrano] "Yes, just the other day in fact. I have Bootcamp with Windows 7 on my Mac Pro because I still have software that I must support and it wouldn't boot. I had to run FDISK C: /F to fix corrupt files. That's a big problem with Windows that macOS doesn't have to worry about"

I am thinking you never used DOS to partition and format a hard drive. You wouldn't use FDISK to fix corrupt files. I think you are thinking of CHKDISK. Having said that my files don't go corrupt.


[John Rofrano] "Windows has nothing like this and depending on how many times your Windows PC locks up and has to be cold started, files will become corrupt and it will stop booting. You should run FDISK (or the GUI version) regularly on a Windows PC to catch file corruption before it gets too bad."

It will stop booting? I never had that happen. If someone gets a virus maybe (just maybe) but that would not be because of Windows if the system gets hacked. I don't have my editing PC on the internet. A Mac can also get a virus. Also you should not run FDISK on Windows PC regularly. In fact there has not been a need to use FDISK for over 15 years. As I stated earlier FDISK is a DOS utility for creating a partition and formatting the hard drive. If you used FDISK daily that might explain why you had so many issues.

Friends shouldn't let friends FDISK : )


[John Rofrano] "I also spent a fair amount of time assigning Interrupts to my SoundBlaster card on the ISA BUS (before the plug-n-play PCI Bus was invented) Those were fun days debugging why your new game wouldn't run only to find out that your new graphics card and audio card were sharing the same interrupt. lol"

The PCI (Plug and Play) bus still made use of IRQs as seen in the video below. Anyone can talk about DOS, IRQs and even ISA slots but how any people have actually seen them in the wild?

Having said that I miss my jumpers and dip switches : )







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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 1:07:54 am

[andy patterson] "My system never fails to shut down because of updates. Did you disable the updates as shown in the video below? I am thinking you did not. "
Yes, I did and I can make a video of the problem if you don't believe me because I use virtual machines every day in my testing and I don't want any of them updating without me doing it and I disable update right after the OS is installed and shut down the machine and it's fine. Then I turn the machine on again and check and update is still disabled. When I shut it down the second time, it tells me it has to apply updates. When I turn it back on, Windows Update is still showing as Disabled but the service is RUNNING! Maybe after a certain amount of updates it actually stops updating but this is on a clean system and I do not want updates but Microsoft insists on running it even though it's disabled. What I do is disable the network adapter after the initial load because all of my tests are local and don't require the internet.
[andy patterson] "How was the Metro Mode a debacle?"
It shocked everyone who updated their Windows XP machines to Vista and the desktop was gone and their PC looked like a Windows Phone with this big "Hello Kitty" boxes interface. The Start menu was also missing. Several vendors made money selling plug-ins that would add the start menu back again. The desktop could be enabled but then you would start a program that tried to open a link in a browser and instead of opening the desktop browser, it would switch back to the Metro interface with a full screen browser and you had to figure out how to get back to your desktop. It was horrible! Customers complained and eventually Microsoft made the desktop the default in Windows 7 and brought the start menu back. When a company like Microsoft has to admit they were wrong and change the interface back to how XP looked... I call that a debacle! Nobody wanted their PC to look like a Windows Phone.
[andy patterson] "I am thinking you never used DOS to partition and format a hard drive. You wouldn't use FDISK to fix corrupt files. I think you are thinking of CHKDISK. Having said that my files don't go corrupt. "
Yes, I was thinking of CHKDSK and Yes you would use FDISK to recover corrupt Master Boot Record (FDISK /MBR) which I've used to recover Windows systems that won't boot. But you are correct, I was talking about using CHKDSK to fix corrupt files. Files get corrupt when you computer blue-screens (BSOD) or locks up and needs to be powered off. If you use a Windows computer long enough, this will eventually happen to you. Updates to drivers that are buggy or not compatible with your hardware is a common reason for BSODs. Running CHKDSK every once in a while to catch file corruption before it gets bad is a good idea. Maybe Windows 10 does this now behind the scenes as part of regular maintenance?
[andy patterson] "The PCI (Plug and Play) bus still made use of IRQs as seen in the video below."
Yes, of course it still does but before plug-n-play you sometimes had to reassign the IRQ's manually so that they did not conflict. It's not that the hardware wouldn't work, but hardware that shared interrupts didn't work well at the same time so having your display card and sound card on the same interrupt made game play difficult. Plug-n-play allowed devices to negotiate their own interrupts better so they would grab the next free IRQ instead of all being assigned to the same few from the factory.
[andy patterson] "Anyone can talk about DOS, IRQs and even ISA slots but how any people have actually seen them in the wild? "
I have worked for IBM for the past 33 years and I started in the IT department back in 1984 as a PC Technician so I've assembled, disassembled, partitioned, formatted, inserted math coprocessors and memory chips one-by-one, and flipped dip switches in more PC's that I can count. This is what I did for a living! I may not remember it all with clarity, but I was there and still have some rather old parts in my parts drawer to prove it (like a sleeve of memory chips). Before joining IBM I had an Apple ][+ 48K (which I still own) and had I not joined IBM, I probably would have stuck with Apple. ☹ I also still have my Macintosh 128K (the original) which was the last Apple computer I owned before going to the IBM PC. I've personally owned a PC XT, PC AT, PS2 Mod-30, & PS2 Mod-80 (yes, microchannel!) before buying clones and building my own. So yea... now that I think about it... my experience is probably not the norm because I've seen everyone else problems including mine. lol ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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andy patterson
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 5:59:03 pm

[John Rofrano] " [andy patterson] "My system never fails to shut down because of updates. Did you disable the updates as shown in the video below? I am thinking you did not. "

Yes, I did and I can make a video of the problem if you don't believe me because I use virtual machines every day in my testing and I don't want any of them updating without me doing it and I disable update right after the OS is installed and shut down the machine and it's fine. Then I turn the machine on again and check and update is still disabled. When I shut it down the second time, it tells me it has to apply updates. When I turn it back on, Windows Update is still showing as Disabled but the service is RUNNING!"


Is the Windows system updating or did the virtual machines update? My Windows 10 system does not update when shutting down ever. When I first build a new system I let it update for a couple of days and then disable the updates. As I stated my editing system is rarely connected to internet. When I had Windows 10 on my laptop it never failed to shut down because of updates. Are you using a genuine MS OEM version?


[John Rofrano] "It shocked everyone who updated their Windows XP machines to Vista and the desktop was gone and their PC looked like a Windows Phone with this big "Hello Kitty" boxes interface. The Start menu was also missing. Several vendors made money selling plug-ins that would add the start menu back again. The desktop could be enabled but then you would start a program that tried to open a link in a browser and instead of opening the desktop browser, it would switch back to the Metro interface with a full screen browser and you had to figure out how to get back to your desktop. It was horrible! Customers complained and eventually Microsoft made the desktop the default in Windows 7 and brought the start menu back. When a company like Microsoft has to admit they were wrong and change the interface back to how XP looked... I call that a debacle! Nobody wanted their PC to look like a Windows Phone."

The start Menu was not missing with XP to Vista Upgrade. You a bit confused. I think you are thinking of Windows 8. Windows 8 had a start screen that worked just as well as the start menu. While even XP had touch screen support and there were touch screen XP tablets Windows 8's Metro GUI was design to work with smaller touch screens. Windows 7 didn't bring back the start menu. You are very confused about Windows XP, Vista, 7 and 8. Windows XP, Vista and 7 all used the Windows 95 paradigm. Windows 8 received the Metro GUI and was also the first OS by MS to go beyond the Windows 95 paradigm. You will have to trust me on that.


[John Rofrano] "I've personally owned a PC XT, PC AT, PS2 Mod-30, & PS2 Mod-80 (yes, microchannel!) before buying clones and building my own. So yea... now that I think about it... my experience is probably not the norm because I've seen everyone else problems including mine. lol ;-)"

Can you install Windows 95? Would you consider Windows 95 hard to install?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 8:29:17 pm

[andy patterson] "Can you install Windows 95? Would you consider Windows 95 hard to install?"

Well, this thread had taken a turn.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 10:02:58 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Jan 1, 2018 at 10:05:37 pm

[andy patterson] "Is the Windows system updating or did the virtual machines update? My Windows 10 system does not update when shutting down ever. When I first build a new system I let it update for a couple of days and then disable the updates. As I stated my editing system is rarely connected to internet. When I had Windows 10 on my laptop it never failed to shut down because of updates. Are you using a genuine MS OEM version? "
I didn't let it update for days because I don't have days to keep it running. It's just a test system that I run on occasion to check software compatibility. If you are not connected to the Internet it doesn't try to install updates (obviously). This is how I got it to stop. I disabled the network card.
[andy patterson] "The start Menu was not missing with XP to Vista Upgrade. You a bit confused. I think you are thinking of Windows 8."
You are correct. Vista was the poor performing one that aggressively cached everything into memory and Windows 8 was the metro debacle. A lot of the Vista problems were due to it introducing a new driver model that made a lot of peoples peripherals incompatible but that's not Microsofts fault. At some point you need to move ahead and Apple does this all the time. As I said, I don't remember clearly but I lived through it all and Vista and Windows 8 were versions that people avoided.
[andy patterson] "Can you install Windows 95? Would you consider Windows 95 hard to install?"
Not only can I install it... but I can run it in a window on my Mac Pro Desktop!


(That's actually Windows 98 but you get the idea.) ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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greg janza
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 30, 2017 at 11:03:19 pm

John, thanks for the clarification. I didn’t mean to question your professional chops. You obviously know the PC world inside and out and therefore I can’t argue with anything you’ve laid out. I knew going in that the Windows environment was not going to be as elegant as my Mac and that there was going to be a list of annoying aspects of PC existence that I would have to endure.

I think overall you and I are coming at our conclusions from opposite ends. Your many years of PC frustrations are not that dissimilar from my many years of Apple allegiance which became a long slow decline in allegiance due to their lack of component options lack of upgradeability and ever increasing product cost, which to me, can’t be justified.

I hope you continue to love your OSX environment. It certainly is easier to maneuver than Windows and it does work consistently. I also hope that some of what you’ve laid out with long term Windows use is no longer the norm with Windows boxes because so far, Windows has delivered an equally consistent environment in which to work.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 12:00:35 am

[greg janza] "I think overall you and I are coming at our conclusions from opposite ends. Your many years of PC frustrations are not that dissimilar from my many years of Apple allegiance which became a long slow decline in allegiance due to their lack of component options lack of upgradeability and ever increasing product cost, which to me, can’t be justified."
Yea, that's exactly what I figured.

I have to admit, I did get really, really pissed at Apple when they removed the brightness control form macOS for my Apple 24" Cinema Display. I forget if it was around Yosemite or El Capitan but I couldn't believe it! They make a display with absolutely no physical controls of any kind and then they drop software support for it so that it stays at 100% brightness forever. Luckily I found an app to adjust the brightness, so I guess I'm already experiencing some of the frustration when Apple makes a bone-headed move like that one. (What were they thinking??? ...time to buy a new Mac of course) ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Shawn Miller
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 29, 2017 at 2:34:13 am

[greg janza] "
Does anyone still take the look of the box into account? I don’t care what the computer case looks like since I never look at it or even notice it."


I wouldn't care if my computer case was hot pink with purple stripes and had "My Little Pony's First Computer Friend" scrawled across the side. I only care about the usefulness of my tools, who makes them or what they look like doesn't matter much to me. ☺

Shawn



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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 29, 2017 at 2:48:39 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Dec 29, 2017 at 5:11:18 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I wouldn't care if my computer case was hot pink with purple stripes and had "My Little Pony's First Computer Friend" scrawled across the side."
Shawn... I think I found your next computer case! 😃


lol (...no ponies were harmed in the making of this case)

ps. This photo created on a aesthetically pleasing Mac. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Bill Davis
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 29, 2017 at 8:08:03 pm

Genius!

With so many hugely talented women working in editing today - appealing to their nostalgic side could be a massive marketing win.

As a male editor, of course, some might prefer a "Brony" edition.

RED pretty much copped the ALIENS aesthetic with their early cases and designs.

Now I'm looking really forward to this idea expanding.

Maybe having a PC delivered in a Snoopy's doghouse or "Schroders piano" form factor.

How about a "Baywatch" case?

Our computers can become todays collectable lunchboxes.

Awesome.

Affinity cases FTW!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 29, 2017 at 10:11:56 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Dec 29, 2017 at 10:17:12 pm

[John Rofrano] " [Shawn Miller] "I wouldn't care if my computer case was hot pink with purple stripes and had "My Little Pony's First Computer Friend" scrawled across the side."

Shawn... I think I found your next computer case! 😃"


LOL, that's it!! If this thing saves me days of render time and thousands of dollars per year, I wouldn't hesitate to use it!

[John Rofrano] "ps. This photo created on a aesthetically pleasing Mac. ;-)"

Yeah... but if your applications require substantially more horsepower than Photoshop, the aesthetics of the computer you run them on would probably be a lot less important to you. ☺

Shawn



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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 30, 2017 at 4:37:29 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Dec 30, 2017 at 11:01:14 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Yeah... but if your applications require substantially more horsepower than Photoshop, the aesthetics of the computer you run them on would probably be a lot less important to you. ☺"
Well, if your applications are running sub optimally for the platform I would agree. But...
[Shawn Miller] "LOL, that's it!! If this thing saves me days of render time and thousands of dollars per year, I wouldn't hesitate to use it!"
Speaking of saving rendering time... Here is the results of a 2 minute 4K Timeline export on a 2016 MacBook Pro which took 3.27 minutes for FCP X and a wapping 58.42 minutes for Premiere Pro! (FCP X is ~18x faster !!!) Even running Premiere Pro on a Dell XPS with the same specs it took 18.51 minutes which still makes FCP X 5.6x faster than Premiere! It's not about the hardware speeds and feeds, it's about how much work you can get done with the hardware and software combined.



So you don't need some big behemoth of a PC with fans screaming like a 747 on takeoff when you have software that is optimized for the hardware it's running on like we have on the Mac. Think about it. PC developers need to make their software work with 100's of different GPU's. Mac developers have a handful of configurations to support so the software can be extremely optimized for the platform.

The chart above speaks for itself. Premiere Pro runs better on Windows than on a Mac but it still doesn't runs nearly as fast as Final Cut Pro X on a Mac so yea, if you are a Premiere user, Windows should be your platform of choice and you should buy the biggest beefiest PC you can afford. FCP X editors don't need that much power to get even more work done on a Mac. The problem is not PC vs Mac as much as it's Premiere running better on a PC. Since I don't use any Adobe products, the Mac gives be both aesthetics and performance. 😉

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Shawn Miller
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 6:29:08 am

[John Rofrano] " [Shawn Miller] "Yeah... but if your applications require substantially more horsepower than Photoshop, the aesthetics of the computer you run them on would probably be a lot less important to you. ☺"

Well, if your applications are running sub optimally for the platform I would agree. But..."


Not sure what there is to argue about here - some application types are just (computationally) more expensive than others; NLEs need more compute power than still image editors, 3D renderers need more compute power than NLEs... for those of us that work with more than just still image editors and NLEs, performance has to come before brand loyalty or the aesthetics of a computer case.

[John Rofrano] "Speaking of saving rendering time... Here is the results of a 2 minute 4K Timeline export on a 2016 MacBook Pro which took 3.27 minutes for FCP X and a wapping 58.42 minutes for Premiere Pro! (FCP X is ~18x faster !!!) Even running Premiere Pro on a Dell XPS with the same specs it took 18.51 minutes which still makes FCP X 5.6x faster than Premiere! It's not about the hardware speeds and feeds, it's about how much work you can get done with the hardware and software combined."

Right... a good chunk of my work is 3D "stuff" though. I sometimes have scenes that take an hour or more per frame to render, and that's on a dual 10 core Xeon machine... I doubt a mackbook could even load some of my scenes. Again, I don't care what my computer looks like, who makes it, or what OS it runs on. If I can get a render down from 75 minutes per frame to 45 minutes per frame, that translates into time and money saved over time.

[John Rofrano] "
So you don't need some big behemoth of a PC with fans screaming like a 747 on takeoff when you have software that is optimized for the hardware it's running on like we have on the Mac."


I have a dual 10 core Xeon workstation that I can't hear under full CPU load..... also, I'm guessing you've never used Redshift, Octane or MoI on the PC...

[John Rofrano] "The chart above speaks for itself. Premiere Pro runs better on Windows than on a Mac but it still doesn't runs nearly as fast as Final Cut Pro X on a Mac so yea, if you are a Premiere user, Windows should be your platform of choice and you should buy the biggest beefiest PC you can afford."

Right... but for those of us that do more than just edit, fast h.264 exports may not be that big of a deal. For me personally, being able to output .mp4 files in less than a minute is a lot less important than the ability to run my 3D renderer of choice.

[John Rofrano] " FCP X editors don't need that much power to get even more work done on a Mac."

And that's great for FCPX editors... but it doens't have anything to do with my answer to Greg's original question. If a computer has the hardware I need to get my work done more quickly... I don't care what it looks like or who makes it.

Shawn



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Bill Davis
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 10:41:14 am

[Shawn Miller] "And that's great for FCPX editors... but it doens't have anything to do with my answer to Greg's original question. If a computer has the hardware I need to get my work done more quickly... I don't care what it looks like or who makes it.
"


Then you answered your own question, even if you're unwilling to acknowledge it.

If EDITORIAL is a significant part of your work - you should add a Mac and FCP X to your toolkit. Because that's the hardware and software combo that "edits" the fastest right now.

Of course you'd have to learn to use the software efficiently - which takes effort.

Adding "other software" to the mix is certainly a rational reason to sticking with a PC - but you have to accept that you're hobbling your editorial tasks, just for access to the greater horsepower required for running less efficient non-editorial software. So you're just picking one compromise over another. Which is fine. But for how long?

As we saw with FCP X - tearing down a legacy program is a big risk. But a few years down the road - when those performance gains prove to be very significant - it's one really good way to keep the efficiency curve ascending.

Hard choices.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 3:52:10 pm

“If EDITORIAL is a significant part of your work - you should add a Mac and FCP X to your toolkit. Because that's the hardware and software combo that "edits" the fastest right now.“

If you’re a freelancer working with a variety of post production companies or in-house video departments it’s unlikely FCPX would be a viable option.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Shawn Miller
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 6:16:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "[Shawn Miller] "And that's great for FCPX editors... but it doens't have anything to do with my answer to Greg's original question. If a computer has the hardware I need to get my work done more quickly... I don't care what it looks like or who makes it.
"

Then you answered your own question, even if you're unwilling to acknowledge it."


I didn't actually ask any questions, I answered Greg's question... what am I unwilling to acknowledge?

[Bill Davis] "but you have to accept that you're hobbling your editorial tasks, just for access to the greater horsepower required for running less efficient non-editorial software."

How do you know that my non-editorial software is less efficient? Don't you routinely criticize non-FCPX editors for commenting on software they've never used?☺

Shawn



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Bill Davis
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 5:23:47 am

[Shawn Miller] "How do you know that my non-editorial software is less efficient? Don't you routinely criticize non-FCPX editors for commenting on software they've never used?☺"

Fair criticism, I suppose - but it’s based in the fact that I do have a casual acquaintance with some world class coders - who tell me that some long time software (they mentioned AE in particular) has a lot of legacy code that’s not particularly efficient doing things like still calling the CPU for tasks that would run a lot more efficiently on the GPU - one factor that makes it somewhat inefficient compared to more modern programs.

I think the general coding term is “cruft” - old inefficient code that complete re-writes like X did in 2011 and Resolve continues to write afresh - tends to eliminate.

But you’re right. I’m not a programmer and I have no real expertise in the area. .

It does make sense however that long running software that attempts to maintain every single feature users have become accustomed to over decades - might do that at a price regarding efficiency.

But I could be totally wrong.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 12:07:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "Fair criticism, I suppose - but it’s based in the fact that I do have a casual acquaintance with some world class coders - who tell me that some long time software (they mentioned AE in particular) has a lot of legacy code that’s not particularly efficient doing things like still calling the CPU for tasks that would run a lot more efficiently on the GPU - one factor that makes it somewhat inefficient compared to more modern programs."

AE is not a NLE design to be used for the editorial process nor is MS Word or DreamWeaver.


[Bill Davis] "But you’re right. I’m not a programmer and I have no real expertise in the area. ."

I would agree with that.


[Bill Davis] "It does make sense however that long running software that attempts to maintain every single feature users have become accustomed to over decades - might do that at a price regarding efficiency.

But I could be totally wrong."


Premiere Pro (2003) was a total rewrite of the code. Premiere Pro 1.0 can take advantage of multiple cores CPUs and in fact before the implementation of the Mercury Playback Engine Premiere Pro made use of the GPU for a few transitions. Did you know that?

The 2017 iMac in the video below at 16:45 failed to play back the R3D file at full resolution yet a $1,400.00 gaming PC can. I don't consider a $1,400.00 PC a beefy system do you? Having said that if the 2017 iMac cannot play it back I doubt your laptop can. Wouldn't you agree. The iMac Pro did play it back at full resolution but I would consider the system specs on the iMac Pro pretty beefy. Wouldn't you?













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andy patterson
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42:02 am

[Bill Davis] "If EDITORIAL is a significant part of your work - you should add a Mac and FCP X to your toolkit. Because that's the hardware and software combo that "edits" the fastest right now."

According to who? How exactly is FCPX faster than say Premiere Pro?


[Bill Davis] "hobbling your editorial tasks, just for access to the greater horsepower required for running less efficient non-editorial software."

Are you saying Premiere Pro and DR 14 are less efficient than FCPX for real-time playback and rendering?


[Bill Davis] " So you're just picking one compromise over another. Which is fine. But for how long?"

So are FCPX users. Depending on what codec you use an iMac might be a better option than the iMac Pro.


[Bill Davis] "As we saw with FCP X - tearing down a legacy program is a big risk. But a few years down the road - when those performance gains prove to be very significant - it's one really good way to keep the efficiency curve ascending."

What gains are you talking about? Quick Sync gives FCPX an advantage when editing h.264/AVCHD/MPEG4 but any other codec and FCPX has no great performance gains over Premiere Pro. I doubt FCPX has a performance gain over DR 14 either. I don't doubt you can edit h.264 4K files with your laptop but let me see you edit camera raw formats or even the Cineform Codec on your laptop at 4K. Had you bothered to read and of my comments (which would be wise). I let people know why once you get Premiere Pro on a $1,400.00 desktop you would probably see a better experience than using FCPX on an iMac depending on what is being edited. Want proof?

Watch the video below at 16:45. I am not saying a fully loaded and beeefy iMac could not do it but this iMac did not. Having said that a $1,400.00 PC could do it. So much for the beefy PC requirement myth when using Premiere Pro : )








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andy patterson
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 7:31:34 am

[John Rofrano] "3.27 minutes for FCP X and a wapping 58.42 minutes for Premiere Pro! (FCP X is ~18x faster !!!) Even running Premiere Pro on a Dell XPS with the same specs it took 18.51 minutes which still makes FCP X 5.6x faster than Premiere!"

It seems Premiere Pro works better on a PC.



[John Rofrano] "It's not about the hardware speeds and feeds, it's about how much work you can get done with the hardware and software combined."

Quick Sync works well and can give a laptop a huge performance boost. Keep in mind a Mac Book can render faster to h.264 than a Mac Pro.


[John Rofrano] "So you don't need some big behemoth of a PC with fans screaming like a 747 on takeoff when you have software that is optimized for the hardware it's running on like we have on the Mac."

FCPX renders h.264 faster on the old iMac than the new iMac Pro. I have told you already there is nothing special about FCPX other than it uses Intel's Quick Sync. Try editing any other coded beside h.264/pmeg4/avchd and post the benhcmarks between FCPX and Premiere Pro. Don't give Apple more credit then they deserve. FCPX only has an advantage over Premiere Pro when using mediocre laptop specs.


[John Rofrano] "PC developers need to make their software work with 100's of different GPU's. Mac developers have a handful of configurations to support so the software can be extremely optimized for the platform."

Edius can match the benchmarks of FCPX when using h.264 because Edius uses Inel's Quick Sync. In fact some PC programs used Intel's Quick Sync before FCPX.


[John Rofrano] "The chart above speaks for itself. Premiere Pro runs better on Windows than on a Mac but it still doesn't runs nearly as fast as Final Cut Pro X on a Mac so yea, if you are a Premiere user, Windows should be your platform of choice and you should buy the biggest beefiest PC you can afford. FCP X editors don't need that much power to get even more work done on a Mac."

I'll put my 4 year old Haswell PC against your system and I certainly don't have a big and beefy system ; )

[John Rofrano] "The problem is not PC vs Mac as much as it's Premiere running better on a PC. Since I don't use any Adobe products, the Mac gives be both aesthetics and performance. 😉"

I think that is the problem. You don't use a Windows PC or Premiere Pro but you will post about Premiere Pro and Windows being sluggish and problematic but the people that happen to use Windows and Premiere Pro don't make the same comments. Why do you think that is? Why do Mac users who do not use a Windows PC or Premiere Pro complain more about Windows PC and Premiere Pro than the people who actually use them? Why do you think that is?


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 4:57:17 pm

[andy patterson] "I think that is the problem. You don't use a Windows PC or Premiere Pro but you will post about Premiere Pro and Windows being sluggish and problematic but the people that happen to use Windows and Premiere Pro don't make the same comments. Why do you think that is? Why do Mac users who do not use a Windows PC or Premiere Pro complain more about Windows PC and Premiere Pro than the people who actually use them? Why do you think that is?"
Because I have used a Windows PC for over 33 years and I own and have used Adobe Creative Suite CS2, CS4, CS5, & CS6 (I refused to pay ransomeware for CC) and those that just switched to Premiere Pro have used a Windows PC for a year or two and haven't experienced how sluggish they get over time or how unstable they get as you update and add more software. I've only used a Mac for 4 years but my experience has been so far superior to my 33 years of PC experience that I would never use a Windows PC or a track based NLE again. So I'm speaking from personal experience having used both platforms with a variety of workloads not just video editing (I'm also a software developer).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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andy patterson
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 5:56:20 pm

[John Rofrano] "Because I have used a Windows PC for over 33 years and I own and have used Adobe Creative Suite CS2, CS4, CS5, & CS6 (I refused to pay ransomeware for CC)"

Just for clarification I have used Apple computers for about 30 years but writing my term paper on a Mac is not the same thing as editing video is it? Could you do a short video of yourself using Premiere Pro CS2 and CS 6 on a PC? I am wondering if you used CS 6 on an old 64 bit Pentium 4 system and switched to FCPX using an i7 Mac. Could you do a video of your FCPX system editing as many layers of the Red R3D files as possible? There is a video of FCPX dropping frames when using an iMac while editing 4.5K R3D files at full resolution yet there are $1,400.00 PCs using Premiere Pro than can edit the 4K R3D files at full resolution. Do you understand why I don't buy into the claim that FCPX and the Apple hardware combination is the greatest thing since slice bread? Do you at least see my point? On computers with low system specs FCPX does have an advantage but that advantage diminishes quickly as the system spec increase and at some point Premiere Pro might out shine FCPX. That is not to say they both don't work well. I think they do work well but I am not going to over hype the performance of FCPX on an iMac when compared to Premiere Pro on a $1,400.00 PC. Why would anybody do so?

All I can say is you should stick with Apple but keep in mind many of us have had a totally different experience from yours. Why has your experience been so different from mine? As you can tell from my video I have been building custom PCs for 20 years. Do you think I would still do so if I had all the same experiences as you have? I could do a video of my Windows 10 system shutting down in less than a minute if you would like me to do so. It can be done.


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 8:43:33 pm

[andy patterson] "I am wondering if you used CS 6 on an old 64 bit Pentium 4 system and switched to FCPX using an i7 Mac."
Actually, I was using CS6 on a Core i7 6-Core PC w/Quadro 4000 that I built before moving to a 12-Core Mac Pro w/ATI HD7950. I don't edit RED footage so perhaps my experience would be different if that was the case. I get your point that different workflows may work better on different hardware/software combinations depending on your video editing format.

But speaking of inequity... (e.g, Pentium 4 vs Core i7) that's exactly what the original video that started this thread is all about... comparing a modern PC to a 4 year old Mac Pro makes no sense. A modern PC is also faster than a 4 year old PC. So what's the point? The only point I can see is that you can update a PC any time you want while Apple has made their computers non-upgradable and I can't argue with you on that point. I voted with my wallet and did not buy the 2013 Mac Pro and still use my 2010 Mac Pro and have expanded it quite a bit.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Craig Seeman
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 29, 2017 at 10:33:11 pm

That's so Apple circa 2001.
Hey they could go there again only cooler this time.





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Craig Seeman
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 4:28:15 pm

[Paul Golden] "FCPX: very smooth. Tried an HEVC export and worked really well. Will probably replace X264 for client WIPS (X264 fails on this machine)"

This caught my attention. Please expand on x264 fails.
Apple doesn't use x264 so perhaps you're using something else.
Both Apple's H.264 and H.265 (HEVC) are their own AFAIK (I know H.264 is their own).



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Paul Golden
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 5:18:26 pm

I’ve been using the X264 encoder for some time now. It’s another component that you can install in the components folder in QuickTime in Library.

Larry Jordan did a deep dive several years ago: https://larryjordan.com/articles/compressor-x264-improve-video/

On iMacs with optimization for H264 it was probably unnecessary, but I found X264 produced better compression with less space and quicker encodes. Especially with my Mac Pro tower and trashcan. With HEVC, it’s probably obsolete. Does anyone know if HEVC is universally readable by Windows & Mac for both desktop and web?


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Craig Seeman
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 6:37:36 pm

[Paul Golden] "I’ve been using the X264 encoder for some time now. It’s another component that you can install in the components folder in QuickTime in Library. "

That would be a problem Quicktime is deprecated and all such components will probably break and otherwise aren't optimized to current operating systems.

HandBrake's X264 would be a different story since it's not using Quicktime.


[Paul Golden] "With HEVC, it’s probably obsolete. Does anyone know if HEVC is universally readable by Windows & Mac for both desktop and web?"

Nothing is universal. Older computers may struggle with HEVC decode. Newer computers may have hardware assist or otherwise have enough processor power to handle decode. So "readable" wouldn't be the issue so much as the ability to play at full frame rate without pauses.



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Paul Golden
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 5:22:54 pm

When I mean it fails, I created a Compressor setting with X264 and in both FCPX and Compressor, the programs errored saying unable to complete compression. It’s odd because I was running the same High Sierra version on my nMP and iMac Pro, but the iMac Pro balked.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 6:31:46 pm

[Paul Golden] "When I mean it fails, I created a Compressor setting with X264 and in both FCPX and Compressor, the programs errored saying unable to complete compression. It’s odd because I was running the same High Sierra version on my nMP and iMac Pro, but the iMac Pro balked."

If the x264 is looking to take advantage of hardware acceleration that might be part of the issue. In the Mac Pro that would be a negative. In the iMac Pro it might be implemented differently than in the i7 series so it might see "something" but not something it can work with. Just speculating but that would be a hardware difference between the Mac Pro and iMacPro.

Apple's own H.264 codec is now very close in quality (as of previous versions of Compressor 4.x).
Also if it's an x264 Quicktime component its deprecated and its also possible that High Sierra on the iMacPro might be just enough different than the MacPro to reject it. I certainly wouldn't depend on it as all Quicktime components are going to be dead soon enough.

Handbrake is using it's own built in encoder so its x264 is not dependent on Quicktime Frameworks.

Given some of the previous conversations it would be interested to compare Handbrake to Apple's H.264 on the iMacPro. It's not the easiest comparison since some of the settings don't have exact equivalents given x264's "tune-ability" compared to Apple's simplicity.



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Bob Zelin
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 6:59:44 pm

Paul Golden writes -
After Effects: is there any machine where AE doesn’t suck at realtime playback? Had a 4.6K ProRes 444 timeline and with Mercury Transmit enabled, still can’t play a RENDERED timeline at speed where it’s downscaled to 1080p for the monitor. WTF is wrong with Adobe and realtime playback? I’ve been using AE for years and they’ve been promising RT improvements the whole time and it never gets much better.


It's comments like these that make me love Creative Cow, and in my opinion, are the very reason these forums exist. It reminds you that you are not the only one that has problems (and gives you confidence to yell at the manufacturers).

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Paul Golden
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 28, 2017 at 8:00:44 pm

Thanks Bob... I'd be interested in Motion, but there are two dealbreakers, one big, one small:

Small one: Why does Motion not support external grading monitors? They used to. What happened? Every other program I use (except Microsoft Word) knows how to talk to an external monitor.

Big one: After Effects is way more utilized by the Animation community and if I'm handing out scenes to animators, I can't expect them to have or use Motion. Especially the PC crowd.

AE is still a joy to use in terms of UI, animation tools and organizing tools, it's just the playback that really stinks. I'm not sure if it's a problem with CC2018 or something else. I've noticed that I can get something close to RT playback on my GUI screen, but the playout to my Flanders through the BMD MiniMonitor lags by SECONDS and then drops frames like crazy. And it doesn't matter whether its coming off my RAID or my spanking new 1600mbs internal SSD on the iMac Pro. Either Mercury Transmit doesn't play at all well with AMD cards or there's some other setting that I'm missing. Maybe my complaint about Motion and external monitors is essentially the same with AE, except that the difference is that when Apple can't do something right, they abandon it, whereas Adobe will just implement a sub-par version and let you suffer. Next stop, the AE forum!

To bring it around to this forum, I will say something in favor of FCPX now. I just had an 8 minute multi-layered animated/live art film for a ballet in 4K that I was convinced I'd have to do in AE. After a few tests and working with an impatient director over my shoulder, we quickly abandoned AE in favor of FCPX where I was able to work in RT with many multiple layers with CC, FX, blend modes etc. FCPX was the champ and saved me from a ton of excruciating render time. It took organizing the footage a little differently, but I realized that my go-to AE impulse was misguided and that there's a lot (and more and more) you can do right within FCPX that gets the job done.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 29, 2017 at 8:22:44 pm

After watching this video, is he comparing a 4 year old computer to a new, tweaked system? Seemed like an infomercial to me. Sexy product shots, several logo shots....maybe I am mistaken. I thought he said he was using his MacPro that he got "whenever they came out".

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Dec 31, 2017 at 1:46:17 pm

[Paul Golden] "AE is still a joy to use in terms of UI, animation tools and organizing tools,"

I would ay that AE is a "joy" when you see the final results. The UI and process (including playback) is painful IMHO only.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Paul Golden
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Jan 1, 2018 at 11:43:12 pm

I think AE is a fairly crowded interface and yet it's pretty logical most of the time and I don't spend a lot of time searching for stuff.

There are UI things I like about Motion, but I find organizing lots of assets in it cumbersome compared to AE. And you can argue whether the timeline or nodal paradigm is superior.

For motion graphics and animation, AE works really well and the tools are robust. Compositing could be improved; 3D could be improved; roto/tracking could be improved (they really need to give the Roto Brush some deep love). And collaboration is non-existent.

But my biggest beef is with performance. I still don't see why a piece of footage with nothing done to it needs to be rendered in order to play back.


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Steve Connor
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 8, 2018 at 1:12:10 pm

Here's an update on Phil's move to the dark side



"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 8, 2018 at 1:46:46 pm

So the Premiere "infomercial" glow is wearing off a bit....

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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John Rofrano
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 8, 2018 at 1:47:27 pm

[Steve Connor] "Here's an update on Phil's move to the dark side"
LOL, This is exactly what I have been saying. PC's are all shiny and new at first... until they're not! Phil hit the nail on the head, "I totally understand the difficulties you have with countless user hardware configurations..." and THAT is the bane of the Windows PC's existence. Too many variations to take into account when developing software for it.

Andy Patterson commented on my earlier post about using a Quadro 4000 in my PC build saying, "The Quadro cards don't offer the best bang for the buck."... yes, but they offer rock solid stability. So while other PC users where complaining on the forums about their "gaming" GTX video cards, I was laughing because my Quadro card was incredibly stable. So I paid for stability, not performance. That's why I now only buy Macs. High quality parts that are incredibly stable as a hardware/software combination and I could care less if you can build a PC with more power for less because you eventually will be wasting your time debugging why your PC is locking up like Phil now is instead of getting real work done like I am on my Mac.

Like I said before, I've been using Windows PC's for over 33 years and I know what a pile of cr*p Windows is and you couldn't pay me to use it again. MacOS is so far superior on so many levels it's not even a contest. Steve Jobs understood the incredible power in owning both the hardware and software. It yields a user experience that Windows just can't match no matter how hard they try.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Martin Curtis
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 3:44:53 am

[Steve Connor] "Here's an update on Phil's move to the dark side".

Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side and gets eaten by a grue.


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38:00 pm



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Bernard Newnham
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 8, 2018 at 11:04:13 pm

At the university where I work there are hundreds of PCs in use by students every day. There are new ones and old ones across a number of buildings, and most software is held on a central server somewhere. I can sit down at any machine and expect any of the Adobe programs, and a lot more, to just work. I'm no lover of Adobe and their payment model - here at home I've stopped at CS6 - but I'm surprised that Phillip Bloom is having big problems with the software.

Bernie


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 12:34:19 am

Maybe his super duper PC is not all that great after all. Still, Premiere is known for a lot of bugs that have never been fixed


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Michael Gissing
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 1:24:32 am

I've been using four OSs for many years. Win7 & Win 10, Mac OS and Linux Mint. I have not had major issues with any of them and overall I would say Linux is the best. My philosophy is clear. Keep all but Linux off the internet except for brief updates or licensing software when it suits me.

Don't put lots of other programs on each computer. I have Fairlight and Reaper on one Win 7 machine. Not much else except an old version of CS6 which almost gets no use other than Media Encoder occasionally. Resolve, Affinity and Cinec on a Win 10. FCP7 on OSX Snow Leopard almost never used anymore. They all have plusses and minuses but it is no contest when it comes to hardware. Mac offer nothing that suits me for power performance to cost plus their configurations and lack of NVIDIA support and internal PCI slots make them unsuited to my tasks.

Maybe Phillip will end up where I am thinking of heading. A custom built rack mount PC hardware grunt box (an upgrade replacing MOBO, RAM and NVIDIA card) running Resolve only on Linux. That's the light side folks.


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greg janza
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 3:04:39 am

[Michael Gissing] "Keep all but Linux off the internet except for brief updates or licensing software when it suits me. "

Michael your advice overall seems very logical but I have to ask how folks out there that do keep their edit systems off the internet maintain an efficient workflow.

I've been tethered to the internet with my edit systems for as long as the internet has existed. It's never caused a problem for me but I know that there are risks. However, pretty much everything I do involves getting media from the internet to add to my project - music, sound effects, stock shots, stills, logos, etc., etc.

Anything other than having an internet connected edit system seems inefficient.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Michael Gissing
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 3:36:41 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Feb 9, 2018 at 3:45:53 am

[Greg Janza] "Michael your advice overall seems very logical but I have to ask how folks out there that do keep their edit systems off the internet maintain an efficient workflow."

I run Linux on my laptop. It is connected to the other computers on my network. It is connected also to the internet so all software and file up and downloads are performed by this machine. I have a few NAS units connected to all computers and this is where media and software goes. If I need a system update, I change the network connections on each machine to point it towards the internet via my main router (it means editing the settings for DNS and gateway which is simple). Once OS updates are done, I disconnect the computer from the internet but not the local network by deleting the gateway and DNS.

I've done it that way for ever. It means the Win machines are not running anti virus software that may affect performance and won't update at annoying times.


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greg janza
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 7:16:22 pm

thanks for sharing your workflow. It sounds like it works for you and that's all that matters.

FWIW- I do have anti-virus protection running in the background but I only do manual updates and overall I've never encounter any performance issues.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 3:04:23 am

There is a cost in time and effort to deal with Windows vs buying more expensive hardware from Apple. None of this is new. I would rather spend my limited brain cells on editing than operating systems.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 3:44:49 am

[Claude Lyneis] "There is a cost in time and effort to deal with Windows vs buying more expensive hardware from Apple. None of this is new. I would rather spend my limited brain cells on editing than operating systems."

Fair enough. I find little actual effort or time is spent on OS. I found OSX to be as much an effort as Win. There are annoying things about both when it comes to managing networks and updating. But if OS management was as much as 1% of my computer work I would be surprised. Compared to time spent waiting for lesser hardware to perform while I am working, there is no doubt for me that building machines and managing multiple OS is saving me time and frustration when working which is 99% of my time on a computer. Boot - open Resolve/ Fairlight - work. The OS is almost irrelevant. The hardware is not.

Building machines takes time but the money saved, the flexibility to use powerful GPUs and to upgrade is time well spent for me. But if you don't want to do it and you can afford to pay more for hardware that takes longer to do the work then fair enough.


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Bernard Newnham
Re: Phillip Bloom goes to the dark side
on Feb 9, 2018 at 5:35:35 pm

"There is a cost in time and effort to deal with Windows vs buying more expensive hardware from Apple. None of this is new. I would rather spend my limited brain cells on editing than operating systems."

Perhaps you could give some examples. I've used a good few operating systems, and although I haven't touched OSX since FCP7 went away (my favourite editor), I don't remember Windows and OSX being particularly different. They both have good bits and bad bits.

I've just undated a machine from 2014 Linux Mint to 2018 Linus Lite. It's amazing how rapidly Linux moves on. You used to have to spend an awful lot of time writing stuff like "wget --save-cookies cookies.txt --post-data 'user =
foo&password=bar' http://server.com/auth.php" , but that's nearly all gone.

Bernie


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