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Another Take

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Brad Davis
Another Take
on Jul 9, 2011 at 5:26:52 pm

My two cents after all of this....

I’ve followed all of you, Larry Jordan, David Pogue and every piece of information available about what happened and I’ve come up with an alternative conclusion.

A couple of days ago on Apple Insider, the columnist indicated that FCS 3 was being held up for re-released because of “legal” reasons. Even then, it would be only for industrial users. It got me thinking. Final Cut Studio was a hodge-podge of previously purchased software. Final Cut was based on Macromedia design. Color was from Final Touch. DVDSP was from Astarte. Sountrack Pro is a comparison to Logic and Compressor and Motion were strictly Apple. They owned the software but what if they really didn’t own all of it from a licensing/code/UI perspective. So, Apple had to rewrite the entire code for technical (64 bit compatibility) and legal reasons and released the products that they owned (FCP, Motion and Compressor) exclusively. I also believe they were beta testing their future ideas in iMovie (which is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.) If the consumers can handle it, why couldn’t the professionals by a logic standpoint.

To answer the question about re-releasing for industrial users. It would be easier for Apple to cut one check (or explain it) to these 3rd parties for industrial users (let’s say BBC or Turner) than nickel and dime to prosumer and professionals sales.

As to breaking up Final Cut Suite. I’m of the opinion that Apple is going to a new paradigm of selling as well similar to the App/iTunes store. We will sell you the base product but if you need FX plugins, you deal with FX plugins directly. If you need DAM support (since we’ve pulled Final Cut Server off the market) you talk to a DAM designer. If you want pro-graded color correction, you deal with DaVinci Resolve. Or maybe Apple has something else in store. I don’t know but you buy what you want now.

I have the software, went to the DFCUPG with Jerry Hofmann and have the Steve Miller training. The software itself needs work but I think there is a monster of engine underneath there (more so than what is previously thought) and there is method to the madness after going through the training. There are some pretty interesting things in the software, it just needs flushing out, refinement and understanding.

Ultimately...we need a software update from Apple soon just updating something useful as a show of good faith. EDL/OMF/XML or my personal favorite assignable 5.1 support. This noise is old but an update of something would prove that Apple is committed and they have the future in mind.

The Apple Insider article....
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/07/07/apple_looking_into_re_offerin...

I also thought this AVID engineer article was amusing. It sounds like AVID wanted to do something similar to Apple but was afraid of what has exactly happened to Apple.

http://techvessel.tv/?p=940

This wouldn't have been the issue that it has if
a.) They had renamed the software from the get go
b.) Hadn't stopped formal selling of FCS 3. However, after reading that article, Apple may not have had the option to sell it anymore at wide scale


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Another Take
on Jul 9, 2011 at 7:16:37 pm

Apple has the future in mind, a lot of us who helped build their brand are just not part of it any longer

This guessing game to me is just another reason to ditch them and transition off their bs when convenient for me to do so. Why should ANY of us be guessing at this point as to what the frak is going on...

Even saying they are going to add this or that doesn't excuse the silence, doesn't excuse the failure to put any of us on notice of what they intended to EOL...if they had license issues, do I care? Does anyone? Seriously...that is the most pedestrian argument yet. What excuse is that for the failure to communicate their "paradigm" shift...? And continuously lie in April....? Excuse excuse excuse excuse...

This isn't cynical, this is reality - this was pure g.r.e.e.d. So greedy in fact, they didn't mind stepping on the backs of those that helped built their brand lying their greedy fat faces off the whole time. Carpetbaggers...and now they want the Luddite whiner griper hater complainers to wait...because it's got a super locomotive engine underneath with revolutionary magnetic rails and we all just have to get on board and adapt to the "method"....

Deja vu...is this June 21st again?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 2:11:57 am

FCP X specifically changes the nature of bins and clip information that the editor interacts with. It also trades the track metaphor for a Storyline metaphor. I'd like someone to explain why either of these is better or faster.

I've now been on the software for 2 weeks and I just don't see it. Just because Apple designers took this approach doesn't make it better. Newer, interesting and innovative - sure. That doesn't make it anything other than different. Other things, like the "automatics" have been less than stellar in my testing. The People analysis mis-categorizes one-shots, two-shots, etc. Synchronization can't sync Canon and H4N clips, where PluralEyes has no problem. Since automatic color balance changes the color profile of a clip and not the actual Color Board settings, you have no idea what values have been altered. So it's a very mixed bag in my view.

That's my opinion, of course, but I'd like to hear from folks who have truly shaken it out and can point to why they think it's better or faster. Thanks.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 6:46:02 am

Had no prob syncing H4N and Canon footage here but totally agree that the auto color thing has to show up in the controls so you can see what it did and make adjustments if needed - just lame that it wouldn't show up in the color board.

Agree that the whole new paradigm is not better - just different. At least in Sony Vegas I can switch the magnetic timeline on and off as needed and yet still have dedicated audio and video tracks which I can name and send to whatever bus I want - that's innovation in a good way.

At the core - this is a cool app that has huge potential and is very fast - young people are gonna start here and learn to use it in their sleep and in 5 years gonna hit the pro world like those guys on the Xerox commercial and say "look... it's the elder... he who speaks of track naming, videotape and EDL's".

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Geoff Dills
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 11:32:04 am

My output is spot on color wise. I can do secondary color correction inside X. My audio effects are a vast improvement. Key wording is going to speed up my workflow quite a bit. Not needing to render while I edit just to see how it looks will almost cut my work time in half. I could go on.

Best,
Geoff


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steve knattress
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 2:07:17 pm

[Geoff Dills] "My audio effects are a vast improvement."

I assume that audio dissolves don't count as an effect! ?


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Geoff Dills
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 2:25:57 pm

No. I prefer specific words, in this case, effect. I agree trying a cross dissolve transition on only audio needs fixed, which could be a simple choice of video, audio or both when you right click on any transition.

Best,
Geoff


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Oliver Peters
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 3:57:08 pm

[Geoff Dills] "Key wording is going to speed up my workflow quite a bit. Not needing to render while I edit just to see how it looks will almost cut my work time in half. "

Just curious. What is your workflow now, such that keywording will speed up how you already work?

Rendering in the background is nice, but it often impedes other system performance. It also seems to cause your project folders to balloon more quickly than before. I've gone back to turning it off as a default.

Adding audio-only dissolves/crossfades takes considerably more steps than before. Yes, audio effects are nice, but if you'd been using Soundtrack Pro before, those tools were already available. And the audio editing routines were better, as well.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Geoff Dills
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 11:22:10 am

Oliver, I was transcribing all my interviews in Pages, copying and pasting time codes, then doing searches to find the bite I was looking for in the text. Now I'm going to use keywords to log interview bites, and as I often heve subjects answer the same question to get different responses, I'll be able to throw all the takes on one point into an audition and very quickly see how each one works in the timeline.

Having the tools inside X to do secondary color correction and audio sweetening will do most of my polishing needs, and until we get other ways to get our audio out to external programs, I can live with grouping each type of audio clip into separate groups and create the four or five tracks I can bring into Soundtrack Pro in order to do final mixing.

I know this doesn't make any difference for a lot of folks with different needs, but so far I'm willing to suffer the workarounds for the other advantages.

Best,
Geoff


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Oliver Peters
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 11:28:55 pm

[Geoff Dills] "I was transcribing all my interviews in Pages, copying and pasting time codes, then doing searches to find the bite I was looking for in the text. Now I'm going to use keywords to log interview bites"

That explains a lot. Thanks. I almost never use transcripts for my doc work, opting instead to build selects sequences and use the timeline markers a lot. In that approach I might have a hundred sequences for a 60 minute doc and use a lot of freeform comments, notation and marker text. So I can see why it's faster for you and slower for me. I just find the Keyword approach to be very limiting.

I would offer, though that if you were on Avid Media Composer, then ScriptSync and PhraseFind would fit in perfectly with your style. Those are extra options of course, but the editors who use these tools swear by them.

[Geoff Dills] "Having the tools inside X to do secondary color correction"

I've always been able to do that in FCP 7, both with built-in filters as well as with some of the great plug-ins that are available.

[Geoff Dills] " I can live with grouping each type of audio clip into separate groups and create the four or five tracks I can bring into Soundtrack Pro in order to do final mixing."

Don't you find that to be a huge workaround, compared with "Send to Soundtrack Pro" or exporting an OMF to a DAW application?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Matthew Schickler
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 6:22:18 pm

I've only tried one sample, but I was able to sync H4N audio with a 7D movie clip with no trouble at all.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 8:10:06 pm

[Matthew Schickler] "I've only tried one sample, but I was able to sync H4N audio with a 7D movie clip with no trouble at all."

Out of curiosity - any particular steps? Or just select the two clips and tell it to synchronize?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 8:42:12 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Out of curiosity - any particular steps? Or just select the two clips and tell it to synchronize?"

I redid my tests and today it's working. Maybe some background process wasn't finished or I didn't wait long enough.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 8:12:27 pm

[Oliver Peters] " I just don't see it."

at this point for me it's a total idiotic mess. I've been noodling with it for a while now. Its just a complete mess. I really hate the way I interact with the timeline as well, its sluggish, imprecise, over animated.

Apple have completely destroyed the application for stupid, greedy, strategic reasons. It was poorly thought out, lousily implemented, stupidly rolled out, mess, mess, mess.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tom Daigon
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 9:10:20 pm

Aindreas - "Apple have completely destroyed the application for stupid, greedy, strategic reasons. It was poorly thought out, lousily implemented, stupidly rolled out, mess, mess, mess."

Hey Aindreas, stop downing in misery and come on over to PrP. The waters fine. Actually its amazing . Nothing but blue skies and a company that gets it. Free phone support with folks who know the product. And tidal waves of new users to will act as catalysts to a software company THAT LISTENS!

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Alex Hawkins
Re: Another Take
on Jul 10, 2011 at 11:58:33 pm

[Tom Daigon] "come on over to PrP. The waters fine. Actually its amazing . Nothing but blue skies and a company that gets it. Free phone support with folks who know the product. And tidal waves of new users to will act as catalysts to a software company THAT LISTENS!"

Ditto That.

Plus, I for one, would just love to have you on the forum.

Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia


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Robert Brown
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 12:27:21 am

But other than that you like it right? ; )



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Craig Seeman
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 12:21:08 am

From Wikipedia on the History of Final Cut Pro.

Ubillos' group was hired by Macromedia to create KeyGrip, built from the ground up as a more professional video-editing program based on Apple QuickTime. Macromedia could not release the product without causing its partner Truevision some issues with Microsoft, as KeyGrip was, in part, based on technology from Microsoft licensed to Truevision and then in turn to Macromedia. The terms of the IP licensing deal stated that it was not to be used in conjunction with QuickTime. Thus, Macromedia was forced to keep the product off the market until a solution could be found
. . .
Final Cut was shown in private room demonstrations as a 0.9 alpha at the National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) exposition in 1998 after Macromedia pulled out of the main show floor. At the demonstration, both Mac and Windows versions were shown. The Mac version was working with a Truevision RTX dual stream real time card with limited real time effects. When no purchaser could be found, Apple purchased the team as a defensive move. When Apple could not find a buyer in turn, it continued development work


I also think it's possible there may be licensing, patent, contractual issues. The cost of renewal of the agreements might have been much higher given the increased value FCP achieved.

Now we have

Ability to buy FCP7 licenses for enterprise deployments coming in the next few weeks…

Changing to

Although industry professional Sam Johnson (via alex4d) originally claimed that Apple would definitely resume licenses "in the next few weeks," company representatives quickly contacted him to set the record straight, saying it is only "looking into" the possibility at this stage. Blogger Peter Wiggins has noted that Apple's issue is a legal one.

That Apple has to "look into" something, that there is a legal issue, that from the announced the said "in a few weeks." Sure does look like Apple has to renegotiate something.

It's even possible they were negotiating to a very late stage and may not have intended on pushing FCS2009 off the market.

Apple has a history of long transitions.
OS9 to OSX and it took 17 months to go from Cheetah to Puma to Jaguar which was finally somewhat usable.
PPC to Intel from WWDC announcement to completion was about 14 months.
QuickTime 7 to QuickTime X about 2 years and counting.

Apple's history is long technological transitions and the above also included FCP. So why is FCP7 to FCPX the exception? I can't help but think there was a legal/licensing issue involved.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 3:36:41 pm

I have been hearing this sorry assed excuse for Apples behavior for a while now - they have licensing issues.

Well unless they are absolute dolts, they've known about these issues for years. Why no warning to the user base. Why not renegotiate the licenses. Oh, it might cost Apple more money.

So what the purveyors of this licensing clap-trap are saying is that Apple didn't think it was worth informing their user base that FCS3 was about to vanish on them and it wasn't worth paying the money to deal with it.

And from this information I'm supposed to what ???? Feel more understanding of Apple's position???

I would prefer to think that they were merely arrogant A-holes.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Tom Daigon
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 3:39:01 pm

Herb, or maybe they are both.....stupid AND arrogant ;-)

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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David Jahns
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 6:39:28 pm

What is this "licensing issue" BS?

Can someone explain? Are you theorizing that Apple bought a software product and all of its' code, and promised to only sell future versions of that code for only 12 years?

Is that even remotely a possibility?

I am not in the software business, but that seems ridiculous, and I seriously doubt any acquisition Apple makes would come with strings attached. What other technologies would FCP7 be licensing? MPEG compatibility? No, Compressor & Quicktime Pro 7 use MPEG - what else would be licensed?

Even if there is a legitimate license issue, it's still no excuse. They're sitting on 60 billion in cash, don't tell me they can't afford a contract extension if they wanted to...

David Jahns
Joint Editorial
Portland, OR


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Craig Seeman
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 7:18:58 pm

It's well known and clear that Macromedia had licensing issues and therefore sold Final Cut Pro to Apple. What's not clear is how that was resolved or whether there were any other licenses that may have needed renewal at some point.

That Apple has to "investigate" the issue of re-release for the enterprise license holders due to legal issues indicates that there's a good change there's some kind of obligation involved.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 7:48:00 pm

Your the one who has been posting this for days now as some kind of explanation for Apple's behavior. Again I say, why should we care? True or not this is absolutely no excuse for the EOL'ing without notice of FCP7.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 8:22:17 pm

[Herb Sevush] "why should we care?"

I'm just reporting. No one has to care at all. If there's cost involved Apple has to either eat the cost or pass it on to the user. I can only guess that the cost may be greater than the cost of the lost business, assuming this is the reason.

[Herb Sevush] "without notice"

Only speculation but perhaps they were negotiating up to the last minute and negotiation failed. It may well be that the success of FCP resulted in someone pushing for a very high license renewal. I doubt this info will become public though if that's the case. It's interesting to note that Microsoft held a license and that the Intellectual Property could not be used with Quicktime.

Keep in mind that "no notice" is entirely out of character with how Apple has EOLd things in the past. Shake was available for a long time after it was EOLd. Even consumer products like iWeb, iDVD, MobileMe have a long EOL availability. So this isn't even a Consumer vs Pro issue.

This was handled differently and either marketing management thought they could handle this differently or something backed Apple to the wall on this.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Another Take
on Jul 11, 2011 at 8:36:44 pm

Here's another recounting of the history of Macromedia, Apple, Microsoft, Quicktime, Avid, Final Cut Pro.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/8AA115DC-2398-456E-9319-FE5...



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