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andy patterson
iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 6, 2017 at 2:12:45 am

The Surface Studio does not have the best specs. I admit is is pricey but it is the user experience that is worth noting. MS can improve the Surface Studio's specs but can Apple improve the user experience of OS X or will OS X continue to use a Windows 95 paradigm in 2018?

Is Windows 10 > iOS & OS X?

Is the Surface Studio > iMac & iPad combined?

Leo Laporte was an Apple Evangelists. Leo said it does not feel like a Windows machine. I think the video below is worth watching. Do you folks agree with Leo's review? Is Apple's Touch Bar a tad bit gimmicky when compared to the Surface Dial? The new iMac Pro will have good specs but will the user experience be any different?







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Morten Ranmar
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 6, 2017 at 6:54:29 pm

What do you mean by a Win95 paradigm in MacOSX?
I work with both Win7, Win10 and MacOS, and truly feel Windows constantly masquerades the same old UI that you never get accustomed to, while MacOS nicely powers the engine under the hood, while retaining a well known UI.

- No Parking Production -

3 x Adobe CC, 3 x iMac, 3 x MbP, 10 GB Ethernet File Server


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 6, 2017 at 8:27:36 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "What do you mean by a Win95 paradigm in MacOSX?"

When Windows 95 launched I think Mac OS 6 was out. Mac OS six was like Windows 3.1. Windows 95 added the Taskbar. Apple bought out NeXT and soon added the dock. The Mac OS has not changed much.

[Morten Ranmar] "I work with both Win7, Win10 and MacOS, and truly feel Windows constantly masquerades the same old UI that you never get accustomed to, while MacOS nicely powers the engine under the hood, while retaining a well known UI."

Did you bother to watch the video or did you respond as a force of habit? When was the last time you used the Surface Studio? If your answer is never how could you make a valid comment? Having said that could you inform me how well the Mac OS X works for you on a touch screen device? Does it work at all? Does OS X still use a Windows 95 paradigm? Windows had touch screen before Windows 8 but Windows 8 allowed the user to use a mobile mode (the Metro GUI) for small touch screen devices or use a desktop mode for large 24" touch screens and mouse and keyboard connectivity. I have OS X and I think it needs to be revamp in 2017. Windows 95 was OK 20 years ago but in world of desktops and mobile devices I want one OS that does it all not two OSs (OS X & iOS). Leo was a dedicated Apple user. He stated that using a big 28" touch screen and the Surface Dial was a much better way to interact with the computer than using a keyboard and mouse (for some things). iJustine said the same thing. She is a dedicated Apple user.


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Morten Ranmar
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 7:27:42 am

I did watch the video and one of my friends has the Surface.
My point was not that MacOSX works as well on a Touch Screen - it doesn't at all, but wasn't designed to either.
For what it sets out to do, and for users that are not IT experts, I think MacOS does it better than any Windows flavour. When I use Windows 10, I get lost even trying to find the Control Panel, which they now try to hide. The interface screams that it is in transition between ordinary interaction and Touch. It is ugly, clumsy and invokes too many pop-up dialogues constantly annoying you. Just makes me want to get back on well-known Mac ; )

- No Parking Production -

3 x Adobe CC, 3 x iMac, 3 x MbP, 10 GB Ethernet File Server


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 9:44:48 am

[Morten Ranmar] "I did watch the video and one of my friends has the Surface."

The MS Surface is different than the Surface Studio. You wouldn't want to stay in desktop mode when using the touch screen option with the Surface. A 28" touch screen makes a big difference.



[Morten Ranmar] "My point was not that MacOSX works as well on a Touch Screen - it doesn't at all, but wasn't designed to either."

That is my point.


[Morten Ranmar] "For what it sets out to do, and for users that are not IT experts, I think MacOS does it better than any Windows flavour."

You would have to experience the surface studio for yourself. There are many iMac users who use the Adobe products who switched from the iPad to the Surface and now will be purchasing a Surface Studio. I bet if you tried the Surface Studio with Illustrator and Photoshop you would change your mind. It is easier to just touch multiple things at once as opposed to mousing around.


[Morten Ranmar] "When I use Windows 10, I get lost even trying to find the Control Panel, which they now try to hide."

The Windows 10 Control Panel is not hard to find in my opinion. It was hard for me to navigate through OS X coming from Windows but I did figure it out on my own. I prefer the Windows Taskbar to the OS X Dock. The video below will show you why.









[Morten Ranmar] "The interface screams that it is in transition between ordinary interaction and Touch."

That is actually a false statement. There is no transition. You can switch between modes. Windows 10 can use the Windows 95 paradigm just like OS X. If you have a large monitor with touch screen you can stay in desktop mode but still use the touch screen features. On a small touch screen you can use the desktop mode but the Metro Mode might be a better option. If you connect a mouse and keyboard to the Surface you can opt to use Windows 10 like Windows 95 (OS X) and use desktop program instead the the Metro mobile Apps. The iPad and iMac do not allow for such flexibility as of 2017.



[Morten Ranmar] "It is ugly, clumsy and invokes too many pop-up dialogues constantly annoying you. Just makes me want to get back on well-known Mac ; )"

Any time I copy files from my SD card to my hard drive using OS X the Mac Mini needs my password. It also makes an annoying noise. Having said that do you think it is possible I could simply touch several things very quickly and more efficiently using the Surface Studio than you could using OS X and a mouse? Could I perhaps draw things in Illustrator more efficiently using the Surface Studio and the Surface Dial than you could using OS X? If you say you can draw things using the iPad that would involve using two separate devices. Sounds kind of clumsy not to mention the fact that iOS cannot run Illustrator. That is why the Graphics artist like what they see coming from MS. OS X and iOS are both very limited and designed for a specific purpose but Windows 10 is flexible and can change depending on what device it is being used on.


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Oliver Peters
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 2:50:10 pm

[andy patterson] "When Windows 95 launched I think Mac OS 6 was out. Mac OS six was like Windows 3.1. Windows 95 added the Taskbar. Apple bought out NeXT and soon added the dock. The Mac OS has not changed much. "

These are all pretty laughable statements, which you just routinely toss out so casually. To say macOS in any version was like Windows 3.1 just makes no sense. Would you mind actually getting into the weeds and really explaining what you are talking about? Why is macOS like Windows 95 in your mind? What specific details make it so in your opinion? File/folder structure? User interaction? Other? And if so, why is that wrong?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 10:30:26 pm

[Oliver Peters] "These are all pretty laughable statements, which you just routinely toss out so casually. To say macOS in any version was like Windows 3.1 just makes no sense."

Mac OS six and Windows 3.1 did use a similar paradigm. Most people would agree.


[Oliver Peters] " Why is macOS like Windows 95 in your mind? What specific details make it so in your opinion?"

The Dock functions somewhat like the Taskbar. Apple did not want to copy Windows 100% like Suse Linux, Corel Linux and all the other Linus distribution that followed from Windows 95. Many of the Linux distribution today still use the Windows 95 paradigm. Windows 7 is not a new paradigm from Windows 95 nor was OS X. Windows 7 is slightly more refined than Windows 95 but not a whole new paradigm shift.


[Oliver Peters] " What specific details make it so in your opinion? File/folder structure? User interaction? Other? And if so, why is that wrong?"

I did not say the Windows 95 paradigm does not work. I use the Windows 95 paradigm when I use Windows 10 on my desktop but Windows 10 can also work on cell phones and tablets. OS X cannot. Apple has iOS for that.

If you can demonstrate OS X working nicely on a tablet without a keyboard and mouse connected than all my comments will be invalid. If not then Windows 8/10 was a paradigm shift.


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Oliver Peters
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 8, 2017 at 2:21:09 am

[andy patterson] "The Dock functions somewhat like the Taskbar. Apple did not want to copy Windows 100% like Suse Linux, Corel Linux and all the other Linus distribution that followed from Windows 95. Many of the Linux distribution today still use the Windows 95 paradigm. Windows 7 is not a new paradigm from Windows 95 nor was OS X. Windows 7 is slightly more refined than Windows 95 but not a whole new paradigm shift. "

This analysis is pretty superficial and you haven't really answered any of the questions. Your concerns about macOS equally apply to Windows 10.

[andy patterson] "If you can demonstrate OS X working nicely on a tablet without a keyboard and mouse connected than all my comments will be invalid."

Huh? Do you really think anyone cares? What's your infatuation with a touch interface? I don't get it. In the case of Surface, that's really just the screen - not the operating system user interface. Have you ever run a Surface Studio or an HP Z1 with touch screen for that matter? It's not very comfortable, with the one exception, drawing.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 5:47:55 pm

[Morten Ranmar] "When I use Windows 10, I get lost even trying to find the Control Panel"

Control panel has been replaced by "settings", you can find it by clicking the windows key-x, or by hitting start>settings. If you just can't live without control panel, use Cortana to search for it (or any of the Windows config apps), or start it from the command prompt, once you find it, you can pin it to the task bar or the start menu, then you you'll never have to search for it again. You can also access many of the configuration and admin apps by right clicking on start.

Shawn



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Steve Connor
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 11:35:34 am

[andy patterson] "can Apple improve the user experience of OS X or will OS X continue to use a Windows 95 paradigm in 2018?
"


Utterly laughable comment

Surface Studio looks really good, but can you imagine using Adobe's fiddly, twirldown interfaces on a touch device?

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Oliver Peters
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 5:54:02 pm

BTW - it's interesting that Andy posted this video, because Leo's comments are not entirely positive towards the Studio. The response time in Photoshop in fullscreen mode is awful. And for $4K. So this is better than an iMac, how?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Noah Kadner
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 5:58:36 pm
Last Edited By Noah Kadner on Dec 7, 2017 at 5:59:03 pm

In playing with one at a store, I think the form factor of the Surface is actually kinda compelling especially if you're in the illustration business. The Surface Dial however adds very little other than a nice gimmick for demos and the lack of expandability nullifies one of the chief advantages of a Windows PC in the first place. It's more like a statement of what Microsoft could do in hardware than an actual computer you need.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops
XinTwo - FCPX Training


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Walter Soyka
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 6:20:09 pm

[Noah Kadner] " I think the form factor of the Surface is actually kinda compelling especially if you're in the illustration business. The Surface Dial however adds very little other than a nice gimmick for demos and the lack of expandability nullifies one of the chief advantages of a Windows PC in the first place. It's more like a statement of what Microsoft could do in hardware than an actual computer you need."

Microsoft's Surface Dial, just like Apple's Touch Bar, needs good software support to be worthwhile.

Using the dial to modify a brush property mid-stroke, like the trigger on an airbrush, could be pretty cool.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 10:59:09 pm

[Noah Kadner] "In playing with one at a store, I think the form factor of the Surface is actually kinda compelling especially if you're in the illustration business."

I want to thank you for actually trying it. The Surface Studio should have been more powerful but it is the interaction with certain programs that all the hoopla is about. I like the Surface Studio but I admit as of 2017 it is to expensive for me to purchase. What will the Surface Studio 3 cost in 2020? Who knows?


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 7, 2017 at 10:51:22 pm

[Oliver Peters] "TW - it's interesting that Andy posted this video, because Leo's comments are not entirely positive towards the Studio. The response time in Photoshop in fullscreen mode is awful. And for $4K. So this is better than an iMac, how?"

For the record the top of the line Surface Studio is much more powerful than what Leo Laporte purchased. Having said that no one ever said the Surface Studio is a powerful computer. Nor did anyone say it is better than an iMac. It is the interaction when using graphic design program that is most impressive about the Surface Studio. I have mentioned this to you several times. Having said that could you please draw a few cartoons using the iMac screen and the Apple Pencil. If you cannot then I would hope you could easily see the advantage of the Surface Studio over an iMac for some users. This is not rocket science. As has been stated there will probably be a Surface Studio 2 in another 8 or 9 months with much better specs.

As of now stop looking at the specs and demonstrate how the interaction of the iMac is better than the Surface Studio when using Adobe Illustrator. That is what all the hoopla is all about. How you missed that part of the equation is beyond me.

They claim the Surface Studio was the most interesting product of 2016 but it is not the most powerful.







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Oliver Peters
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 8, 2017 at 2:22:45 am

[andy patterson] "Nor did anyone say it is better than an iMac."

Then what's the point of this thread if that isn't what you've been trying to say?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 8, 2017 at 5:57:52 am

[Oliver Peters] "[andy patterson] "Nor did anyone say it is better than an iMac."

Then what's the point of this thread if that isn't what you've been trying to say?"


I never stated The Surface Studio is better. The Surface Studio offers a better interaction with some programs. Some users will get a benefit from the Surface Studio others will not. That is the only thing I have ever stated and it is what other have said about the Surface Studio. The bottom line is Apple has nothing to compete with the Surface Studio for graphic designers. Most of the money for the MS Surface Studio went into the touch and pressure sensitive screen of the MS Surface Studio. Having said that will the Surface Studio 3 in 2020 offer better specs than the 2020 iMac Pro?


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Tom Sefton
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 8:41:25 pm

The title of the thread is surface studio pro vs iMac. One hasn’t got a touchscreen and one has a 5k display and more power for video editing. They are not the same in any way. Why not compare the iPad Pro and the surface studio? For graphic designers the pen and drawing functions of the iPad Pro are fantastic.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Shawn Miller
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 9:00:37 pm

[Tom Sefton] "The title of the thread is surface studio pro vs iMac. One hasn’t got a touchscreen and one has a 5k display and more power for video editing. They are not the same in any way. Why not compare the iPad Pro and the surface studio? For graphic designers the pen and drawing functions of the iPad Pro are fantastic."

Did you mean the Surface Pro? The iPad Pro and the Surface Studio are about as different as the iPad is from the iMac.

Shawn



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kingsley asumadu
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 16, 2017 at 7:36:31 pm

Hi Shawn,
I need your advice on my next purchase, basically I'm looking to get a tablet (iPad Pro or the latest surface pro). My goal is to be able to use it to create content with Adobe cc in conjunction with my iMac.
I was wondering if you can advise me on which one of the two will do a better job at viewing and working with files from the cc application, with and without the iMac?

Thank you,
Kingsley.


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Shawn Miller
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 16, 2017 at 8:27:16 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Dec 16, 2017 at 8:28:24 pm

Hey Kingsley,

Tero is right, if you want to run Photoshop or Illustrator on a tablet, the Surface Pro is your only choice.

Shawn



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Neil Goodman
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 8, 2017 at 3:45:57 am

[andy patterson] "Having said that could you please draw a few cartoons using the iMac screen and the Apple Pencil. If you cannot then I would hope you could easily see the advantage of the Surface Studio over an iMac for some users. This is not rocket science. As has been stated there will probably be a Surface Studio 2 in another 8 or 9 months with much better specs. "

Im not sure what the debate is here.. I think you're debating with yourself. Did anyone bring this up besides you? These are two different machine's - one has a touch screen, one does not. How are they comparable at all?


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Morten Ranmar
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 8, 2017 at 7:43:05 am

The iPad Pro is sovereign at drawing tasks, and I hope Apple will bridge it to the Mac soon.

- No Parking Production -

3 x Adobe CC, 3 x iMac, 3 x MbP, 10 GB Ethernet File Server


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Scott Witthaus
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 6:20:54 pm

[Neil Goodman] " think you're debating with yourself. Did anyone bring this up besides you? These are two different machine's - one has a touch screen, one does not. How are they comparable at all?"

Bingo.

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along...

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 9:22:54 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "[Neil Goodman] " think you're debating with yourself. Did anyone bring this up besides you? These are two different machine's - one has a touch screen, one does not. How are they comparable at all?"

Bingo.

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along..."


I don't think they are comparable. A certain person on this thread think OS X and Windows 10 are are the same but they are not. OS X lacks touch screen support and a mobile mode. I posted about the Surface Studio because Apple has nothing to compete with the Surface Studio when using graphic design software. Keep in mind in another thread they are discussing Affinity and Pixelmator Pro. Those program will probably benefit from the features of the Surface Studio as opposed to an iMac. Does it make sense now? It really is not rocket science.


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Charlie Austin
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 2:51:46 am

Editing using a touch screen is awful. I'm sure the Surface is a wonderful thing but.. no thanks.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 4:14:29 am

[Charlie Austin] "Editing using a touch screen is awful. I'm sure the Surface is a wonderful thing but.. no thanks."

Who said anything about using a touch screen for video editing? You folks keep mentioning video editing as opposed to Illustrator and Photoshop. That is like saying you wouldn't use an iMac for skateboarding. Who would? I am guessing the MS Surface Studio might offer the user a better way to interact with the Affinity Design software as well. The surface studio worked well with MS Edge and several other programs. Keep in mind if you want to use a keyboard and mouse with Surface Studio you still can. It is not like it is illegal to use the best input device for the job.

https://affinity.serif.com/en-us


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Steve Connor
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 4:19:47 pm

"Who said anything about using a touch screen for video editing? You folks keep mentioning video editing as opposed to Illustrator and Photoshop."

Yes it's odd that, people talking about editing, on a video editing forum :)

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 9:00:46 pm

[Steve Connor] "Yes it's odd that, people talking about editing, on a video editing forum ☺
"


People talking about video editing in this forum is not odd. People only mentioning video editing when talking about the Surface Studio on this thread is odd because for many people graphic design/photo editing software is needed. Having said that people have posted about Affinity and Pixelmator. Are those video editing programs? Do you edit videos with Pixelmator Pro? Obviously people discuss more than just video editing in this forum.


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Glenn Grant
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 10:21:22 pm

Those discussions usually revolve around how the programs related to the work of video editors. In a FCP forum every thread is going to be discussed from the editors perspective.

I think you might find the discussion you are looking for in the Illustrator or Photoshop forum.


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 11, 2017 at 10:44:08 pm

[Glenn Grant] "I think you might find the discussion you are looking for in the Illustrator or Photoshop forum."

The link below was posted in this forum.

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/99298



[Glenn Grant] " In a FCP forum every thread is going to be discussed from the editors perspective."

This is not the FCP forum. This is the FCPX or not debate forum where we discuss many different things. I have left a link below to the FCPX forum.


https://forums.creativecow.net/fcpx


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Andreas Kiel
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 12, 2017 at 12:32:46 am

To be honest I don't see the point.

If you realy need touch & paint buy a Wacom tablet.
10 bit, color confidence, calibration etc.
Okay you'll end up at 5k or so, but you get a real good system.

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools

"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby
become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will
also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


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Andrew Kimery
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 12, 2017 at 12:47:33 am

[andy patterson] "The link below was posted in this forum.

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/99298"


From the OP in that link;
[Oliver Peters] "Seems like a good choice to help round-out an FCPX "suite" of apps."

Discussing the different business models the major NLE makers users has long been a point of interest in this forum, and, as such, a discussion about non-Adobe alternatives to apps commonly used by editors during the process of editing is very topical.

If you want to discuss how hardware performs outside of the context of editing and/or video/film post production then this forum probably isn't the best place to do it.


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andy patterson
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 12, 2017 at 2:04:39 am

Andrew Kimery

Are you saying if Affinity announces their software can get extra features using the Surface Studio along with the Surface Dial then can be achieved using an iMac it would be inappropriate to post about it here?

[Andrew Kimery] "If you want to discuss how hardware performs outside of the context of editing and/or video/film post production then this forum probably isn't the best place to do it."

If Affinity announced their software can get extra features using Apple hardware such as the MacBook Pro's touch bar would it be inappropriate to post about it here?


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Scott Witthaus
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 12, 2017 at 10:46:37 pm

They should give you free chiropractor sessions from hunching over that damn thing to work. Saw one at Adobe Max last year and my back ached looking at it.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andrew Kimery
Re: iMac VS Surface Studio
on Dec 12, 2017 at 11:25:33 pm

I'm saying in a forum focused on video post production and editing (and Mac-centric by nature) it's reasonable to expect hardware talk to gravitate around video post production and editing. Acting bewildered that someone would comment on the usefulness of a touchscreen for editing in an editing-centric forum is nonsensical. If you want to limit the discussion of the usefulness of a touchscreen (or any other product) to just Photoshop and Illustrator then those forums are probably where the conversation belongs.


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