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Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14

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Michael Gissing
Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 1, 2017 at 10:29:11 pm

Redshark news popped this one up today.

https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/5013-finishing-a-movie-in-a-si...

It isn't news that a feature is finished in Resolve as that happens all the time. Interesting reasons for also editing in Resolve were the edit timeline was also the finish timeline so no translate issues. Reframing & basic grade during cutting became the basis for final grade and some basic VFX done in edit became final. Maybe some don't realise how inefficient it can be to move a project between NLEs and finish tools. So when talking about how fast and efficient a system is I think this needs to be factored in more, especially as finish facilities are much more expensive.

No mention of VFX using Fusion so not sure if connect between Resolve and Fusion was a factor. Some long term Avid editor colleagues are feeding me positives about Resolve 14 now that performance has improved and they are seriously considering the switch. One even wants to pension off his old Mac Pro and go Linux in a grunt box. The times are a changing.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 12:43:30 pm

Another take on this idea:

https://blog.frame.io/2017/10/30/cutting-a-film-davinci-resolve/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 4:46:55 pm

However, from the various posts and articles I see, I get the feeling that there's more interest in using Resolve to cut a feature than there is to use FCPX. Maybe that's one of the reasons Apple is enhancing the color tools inside of FCPX. They may see this as a race of the "all-in-ones". This potentially pits them into an X versus Resolve position among new editors. If so, they'll need to do something about audio.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Ronny Courtens
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 7:00:40 pm

I don't see it that way. I like the fact that more and more feature films get edited in Resolve, but this does not affect the vast majority of FCP X users at all. Enhancing the color tools in FCP X has little or nothing to do with the feature film market either. It simply gives FCP X users very powerful color correction tools right inside the application without affecting realtime performance, which was not possible using the existing third party solutions.

As it stands now, and especially in the feature film world, I think Resolve is much more of a threat to Premiere and Avid. They are all fishing in the same pond while Apple seems much more interested in the ocean (-:

- Ronny


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Steve Connor
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 7:01:38 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "They are all fishing in the same pond while Apple seems much more interested in the ocean (-:"

Nice!

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Oliver Peters
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 7:20:20 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "Apple seems much more interested in the ocean"

I would say at least Adobe is fishing that same ocean. Same for BMD. They are one of the few "pro video" manufacturers that routinely advertises in consumer media. Plus the fact that you can get both the free and paid versions of Resolve in the App Store.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 10:12:51 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "It simply gives FCP X users very powerful color correction tools right inside the application without affecting realtime performance, which was not possible using the existing third party solutions."

Which has been my point all along about not relying on 3rd party developers for core functionality. For years I have been told by X users that the 3rd party model works best but now I see advocacy for what I said from day one. I also agree that this is not about feature editing but in fact sits well with what seemed to be the philosophy from day one to make an all in one tool.

As to fish and oceans, I think a free Resolve with Fairlight inside will also appeal to the wider world than features. The only negative is that complex tools confuse but simplicity brings its own limitations which many users do not care about.


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Tony West
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 3, 2017 at 7:46:33 pm

[Michael Gissing] " For years I have been told by X users that the 3rd party model works best but now I see advocacy for what I said from day one. "

I don't know, I think the argument was more nuance than that.

I think X users liked the idea of paying for third party apps as you use/need them if the tradeoff was getting all the updates for free and not having a subscription model like Pr.

If apple is going to toss everything in the app for FREE, I'm sure most X users will take it.

That argument hasn't changed at all, from what I have seen.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 4, 2017 at 12:04:37 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Nov 4, 2017 at 12:14:35 pm

[Tony West] "I don't know, I think the argument was more nuance than that.

I think X users liked the idea of paying for third party apps as you use/need them if the tradeoff was getting all the updates for free and not having a subscription model like Pr."


Exactly.

To seemingly suggest anyone at any point was suggesting that FCP was somehow 200% perfect and no one thought it could ever get better nor did anyone WANT any improvements such as these, is ludicrous.

If anything, most, such as myself, would have told you that it's certainly lacking here and there (as ANY software on the planet is), but mostly in more specialty areas, which simply aren't on the list of the vast majority. And for those that have them on their list, there are options and solutions out there. And yes, in the end, for a fraction of the price of what certain ransomware will cost you. 😏

IOW if the next version didn't have these tools built-in, I'd still have them if I needed/wanted for cheap. And for certain things I may even still continue to use those other options, but this way e.g. any project exchange I may have will be far less burdened by potential incompatibilities if I choose not to and the onboard toolset get the job done, which I'm thinking they will 99% of the time.

I for one even recently wrote up a long list of things that I don't like about the current state of FCP's CC tools here… and low and behold…

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Michael Gissing
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 4, 2017 at 9:20:53 pm
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Nov 4, 2017 at 9:25:19 pm

[Tony West] "If apple is going to toss everything in the app for FREE, I'm sure most X users will take it."

Which gives me the chance to bring this thread back on track. Blackmagic have tossed a huge amount of built in functionality in a free app. The whole reason for the choice to use Resolve on this film was to be able to finish the whole show in the one piece of software rather than xml transfers that lack translation of many elements. I think Apple is smart to add better grade tools to X and for some that may be enough for their needs but it seems a lot further away from being an all in one tool than Resolve for a wide range of projects.

This article to me says that having the right range of built in tools will appeal as much as editing methodology. I agree that Resolve is catching up to X & Pr in edit functionality but at the same time they have so much more built in for finishing. But I am enjoying seeing people now argue for having more in the software and less reliance on third parties when Apple get around to putting it in. The argument remains as to whether a single integrated finishing tool, which seemed to be the intent of X has been totally realised by Resolve with half the development time.


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Tony West
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 5, 2017 at 3:08:35 pm

[Michael Gissing] "The whole reason for the choice to use Resolve on this film was to be able to finish the whole show in the one piece of software"

I know, I would just personally preferrer that one piece of software to be X.

The first thing he talks about in the article is shooting with BM cameras in ProRes 4444. Obviously that footage will play nicely in X since ProRes 4444 was developed by Apple.

He then goes on to talk about "organization" which for my money no program does it better than X.

The majority of the time spent is going to be in the timeline and in organization and that's where I would put my priority. finishing is a small part of the overall time put in. I wouldn't make my decision based mainly on finishing, but that's just me.

[Michael Gissing] "But I am enjoying seeing people now argue for having more in the software and less reliance on third parties when Apple get around to putting it in."

I just don't get this. People are always going to use third party stuff.

I'm not going to use RX?

I'm not going to use Neatvideo?

Products like these help me finish "inside X"

The other thing that is left out of the article is any mention of sound. Did he mix the sound in R14 and if so what were the advantages of that if any.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 5, 2017 at 11:00:08 pm
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Nov 5, 2017 at 11:05:51 pm

[Tony West] "I know, I would just personally preferrer that one piece of software to be X."

Has a feature ever been edited and finished in X? Heaps of features are finished in Resolve so the point of this whole thread is that an editor chose to also edit in Resolve. This in no way implies that Resolve is a better editor than X, but I will say Resolve is a much better grade app than X, even when the new updates arrive. So the whole point of the article is that Resolve is now good enough and the advantages of staying in a true finishing app are enough to convince an editor to not edit in another NLE. This and the collaboration tools are going to appeal to a lot of editors who are using, Avid, Premiere and X to edit features and other broadcast work.

No mention of sound post which I doubt was done in the Fairlight page of Resolve. That page is still being developed and there will still be a tendency with features and most broadcast to send sound to a different facility which is more likely to be Pro Tools. I'm looking forward to staying in Resolve to do sound soon. And the next frontier will be the pressure on Pro Tools with facilities looking at Resolve as the one stop shop once the Fairlight facility is as fully featured as the stand alone.

" I wouldn't make my decision based mainly on finishing, but that's just me."

There is a whole world where the pressure and the bulk of the post budget is in the grade, VFX and sound, so to not look for speed and budget advantage in that area is bad business. For you it might not be the factor but I can assure you that it is a huge issue for the area that many of us work in. If you are not in that time and budget squeeze and X can be your edit and finish tool then I wouldn't expect you to see the significance.


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Tony West
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 6, 2017 at 1:38:39 am

[Michael Gissing] "There is a whole world where the pressure and the bulk of the post budget is in the grade, VFX and sound, so to not look for speed and budget advantage in that area is bad business."

Who's not looking? I'm not narrowing it to the post budget, I'm talking the total budget.

The film festival is going on in St. Louis this week and I spoke with a feature producer during the Q and A, just this evening.

He said that the bulk of the funding of his film (shot in LA) went to pay the actors (SAG) and the rights to music. He didn't mention grade, but he said the VFX were done by a guy that worked with them (in other words, cut them a deal) They looked great btw.

This film had a lot of actors with speaking roles so that's where they chose to spend the money.

I'm sure it ranges all over the place.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 8:27:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I get the feeling that there's more interest in using Resolve to cut a feature than there is to use FCPX. Maybe that's one of the reasons Apple is enhancing the color tools inside of FCPX."

What does the cutting of a feature have to do with enhanced color tools? I see no connection. If that were the case, Avid would have beefed up Symphony all these years.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Michael Gissing
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 10:05:46 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "What does the cutting of a feature have to do with enhanced color tools?"

Given features often have requirements for custom LUTs and the expectation now to make edits look and sound good for execs who no longer know how to look at 'offline' pictures, I see the need for all NLEs doing high end work to have decent color tools. And audio tools.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 10:52:46 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "What does the cutting of a feature have to do with enhanced color tools?"

If you look at why people are interested in using Resolve, color correction is a key factor, because you eliminate the roundtrip. That's what a number of the interviewees are saying in these customer stories. A lot of features end up going through Resolve at the end. In Apple's case, if you give the customer good enough color correction, then maybe they'll opt to stay in X, simply because of the loyalty to X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 3, 2017 at 8:48:03 am

[Oliver Peters] "In Apple's case, if you give the customer good enough color correction, then maybe they'll opt to stay in X, simply because of the loyalty to X."

For me, it's simply a HUGE boon when it comes to collaboration or just simply moving from one seat to another. You have every and all essential tools built in, therefore no more, or at least far less exclamation marks in your timeline on the other end. And I think it's safe to say, that there will be an update to the XML to reflect all the new parameters, which I'm sure Resolve will in turn update to support, too. So if you DO still need to go there for more specialty work (e.g. tracked power windows etc.), then you won't lose what you've done so far in terms of primaries, if you have. As it has already been.

I've had several people come to me for color-corrections, because I had 3rd party plugins (AND because I actually know my way around color), so I could do them within X. Only it was of no use to THEM once they got home, should they just need a quick tweak of sorts. That will finally change! I'm excited.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 3, 2017 at 12:25:37 pm

[Oliver Peters] "If you look at why people are interested in using Resolve, color correction is a key factor, because you eliminate the roundtrip. That's what a number of the interviewees are saying in these customer stories. A lot of features end up going through Resolve at the end. In Apple's case, if you give the customer good enough color correction, then maybe they'll opt to stay in X, simply because of the loyalty to X.
"


But tell me how this connects to cutting a feature? And wouldn't you say most features of decent budget go out of the NLE to a colorist for finish?

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 3, 2017 at 1:02:26 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "But tell me how this connects to cutting a feature? And wouldn't you say most features of decent budget go out of the NLE to a colorist for finish?"

What do you consider a decent budget? There are plenty of indie films that are in the $50K-$250K range. There are many more of those than films in the $1M+ range. They are often shot with a mixture of cameras - all shooting some type of low contrast or log. Many don't have the budget for a colorist or the know how to deal with roundtrips correctly. That's the market I'm talking about.

Then add to that the shows that need some color adjustments to have a decent image during offline editing. That's being done by the editor. If they can work in a project format that can be handed off to a colorist and a lot of that info gets translated, you are ahead of the game. Or have a colorist step into the project earlier in the pipeline and establish looks within the editorial project. Again, the all-in-one approach works well for that.

Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 3, 2017 at 1:20:39 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Nov 3, 2017 at 1:25:38 pm

[Oliver Peters] "… or the know how to deal with roundtrips correctly."

Hmm. Not sure that exporting an XML on FCP's side, then exporting the graded footage and an XML on Resolve's side, then simply double-clicking the last XML to get it back into FCP is that big of a deal. 😏


[Oliver Peters] "Then add to that the shows that need some color adjustments to have a decent image during offline editing."

How could you not already (and still) get that with just the color board and/or even a free LUT plugin as needed?

But I for one will most certainly be going to Resolve MUCH less with these new tools at my disposal. Not matter the type of project. Whether they (by themselves or even with e.g. SliceX or Chromatic for tracking) are enough for EVERY project has yet to be seen. But I'd be fine with 99%. ☺

Whether it really has all that much to do so explicitly with FEATURE work I doubt as well. I think it's plain and simple a matter of just getting decent, FAST tools to 99% of users that need them. That last 1% (features?) will most likely not change a thing in their workflow to date either way! The same people actually still using nonsense such as EDLs and the likes for exchange first and foremost. 🙄

- RK


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Oliver Peters
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 3, 2017 at 2:48:27 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Hmm. Not sure that exporting an XML on FCP's side, then exporting the graded footage and an XML on Resolve's side, then simply double-clicking the last XML to get it back into FCP is that big of a deal."

As has already been discussed elsewhere, the roundtrip between FCPX and Resolve can be quite problematic at times.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 3, 2017 at 8:36:49 am

[Scott Witthaus] "What does the cutting of a feature have to do with enhanced color tools? I see no connection. If that were the case, Avid would have beefed up Symphony all these years."

Was just thinking the exact same.

Probably owed in part to the fact that an editor is expected to be jack-of-all-trades more and more and more. Which, for me, goes along the same lines of "I can work any and every NLE!", just that it's "I can do it ALL… edit, color, sound mix, motion graphics yadda yadda!". In both cases I can only think "Yeah… master of none."

Apparently the thinking goes, that just because they can, they think they actually can. 😏 Which is why everyone is always screaming to have more and more and more within a single app, since the majority seems to believe that their skills and abilities somehow magically grow parallel to that of their software. Painful to watch sometimes.

I say we petition for colorist and sound-mixer appreciation days. 😉

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Michael Gissing
Re: Feature edited and finished in Resolve 14
on Nov 2, 2017 at 10:26:34 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Another take on this idea:"

Excellent article. I hope the folk at BM take on board her observations.


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