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Andrew Kimery
FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:13:05 pm

Peter Wiggins on Twitter is posting screen shots of the new color grading tools in X (wheels and curves). Color board is still there though (user can pick which UI to use).

https://twitter.com/PeterWiggins


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:27:47 pm

Tough to now be a developer of color correction plug-ins. But at least ProApps is listening to its customers about the color board. Bill - eating your words yet? ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:29:26 pm

I wonder if there's control surface support.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:29:45 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Tough to now be a developer of color correction plug-ins."

Yes, but that's always been the case. Hopefully this means control panels will now work w/X's native color tools.




[Oliver Peters] " But at least ProApps is listening to its customers about the color board. Bill - eating your words yet? ☺
"


First post and already bombs are being thrown. Thanks Oliver. ;)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:30:34 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:39:31 pm

Also from Peter, No new audio features and no dupe detection. New VR tools too.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:55:10 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "First post and already bombs are being thrown. Thanks Oliver. ;)"

Color board for Bill, wheels for everyone else. It's a win-win!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 7:03:58 am

Precisely.

I've lost nothing. Folks who wanted extended color tools gained something.

We all win.

Works for MacBook Pro people - the iMac and the new iMac Pro folks. (Those were beautiful and multiple streams of 8k runningly fluidly was pretty impressive - especially if you're delivering 1080 - that's a LOT of leeway to re-frame for a wide, medium and CU as needed, perhaps

Also notice in the top shot below, the iPad Pro next to the MBPro? You can shoot in iOS in HEVC - Airdrop it into X on a laptop - and X will now open those files directly for refinement.

An iPad Pro as a basic camera/prompter - iPhone for quick B-Roll maybe- quick review and select on the same iPad via iMovie iOS - then AirDrop into X on a MBPro for color and cut - and push it to the world...

How does anyone keep information under wraps - when a whole useful production kit can basically fits into a large manilla envelope?

There's no need for most of us to do that - we already have superior traditional tools - but there WILL be people in places where this will enable interesting stories to emerge that maybe weren't as possible before this astonishing capability lived in such a small and and inconspicuous footprint.

We live in interesting technological times.







Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Martin Curtis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 1:25:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "An iPad Pro as a basic camera/prompter"
Awesome idea. I just found a few apps that do exactly that. Pity the camera on the screen side is HD and not 4k like the one on the other side.


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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 2:22:40 pm

[Martin Curtis] "[Bill Davis] "An iPad Pro as a basic camera/prompter"
Awesome idea. I just found a few apps that do exactly that. Pity the camera on the screen side is HD and not 4k like the one on the other side."


That may change when they launch the next iPad Pro

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Martin Curtis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 30, 2017 at 11:18:53 am

[Steve Connor] "That may change when they launch the next iPad Pro"

Sometimes I feel like an addict. "The next one will have the features I need and it will be the last one I need to buy. Honest."


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David Mathis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:50:51 pm

Is it available now? Must get my paws on the new color tool set. Drooling on floor, salivating like crazy. 😜


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 27, 2017 at 11:55:29 pm

[David Mathis] "Is it available now?"

Official world is "later this year".


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 1:02:49 am

FCP.co has list of all the features.

http://www.fcp.co/163-draft/2011-final-cut-pro-x-10-4-announced-with-new-wh...

Solid focus on 360 tools it seems and you can bring import an iMovie iOS project into 10.4.


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Neil Goodman
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 1:28:01 am

Awesome upgrade to the color tools, definitely wanting a little more since I have no idea what to do with 360/VR - but a welcome addition non the less.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 1:33:09 am

[Neil Goodman] "360/VR"

Tim Dashwood ☺

Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 8:49:42 am

If Apple are so keen to develop a third party ecosystem do extend FCPX's features, why are they adding features that are already available through this ecosystem?

Would love to see them push NLE development even further, I hope there's a few more changes when 10.4 actually arrives

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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David Mathis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 4:06:49 pm

It feels more like Resolve minus the tracks. 😂


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 4:48:39 pm

Just to remind everyone - there was Apple Color way back when. I think ProApps knows how to do this. ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 28, 2017 at 7:15:18 pm

I like the new color wheels! Best and easiest I've ever used are in Capture One Pro 10 which is a stills app. Now finally in an NLE...



It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Andy Field
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 29, 2017 at 5:32:11 am

So it took FCP 10 six years to add features that were already in virtually every other NLE? Yes, 360 VR virtually didn't exist back then in any NLE...but how many actually use this?

Still no tracks or virtual mixer -- but Bill doesn't need them, so no one else does either.

Bravo!

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 29, 2017 at 6:15:02 am

I know.

It’s so weird so many of us are now getting work done every day without “tracks and a mixer.” It’s probably all just an evil spell and soon, the “veil of deception” will be lifted and those years of X-crafted content in films, docs, tv, music, commercials and training will simply disappear in a shimmering haze of myst.

Not an hour ago I was watching footage of hundreds of producers, story editors and finishing editors cutting big time content collaboratively on X - and not a traditional audio track or skewomorphic virtualized version of a 1970s-style mixer in sight.

Who could have EVER seen any of THAT coming?

😉

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andy Field
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 29, 2017 at 6:29:22 am

Like shooting fish in a barrel.....you can set defensive response time with a stopwatch

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Tony West
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 29, 2017 at 2:22:35 pm

You call a person out by name............"Bill doesn't need them, so no one else does either"

Then you call him defensive after he responds to you calling him by name

[Andy Field] "you can set defensive response time with a stopwatch
"


Like he is supposed to just let you call him out and not respond.

Weak.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 4:12:17 am

Appreciate it Tony, but the important part of the comment wasn’t the stuff about me.
It was the stuff focused on the tools and how they approach the production process.
.
Understanding the debate about THAT is useful.

The other stuff, not so much.

(BTW, When I was in Cupertino at the Summit - I mentioned your name to a guy I know who is going to be in St. Louis on business in a bit and who loves chatting about X.
He might touch base. Or not. Hard to say. Take Care.)

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tony West
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 4:31:07 am

[Bill Davis] "I mentioned your name to a guy I know who is going to be in St. Louis"

Great Bill, I look forward to speaking with him if he calls and showing him where to find great food in the STL


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Andy Field
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 9:48:42 pm

it was a joke .... the humor impaired sometimes miss that

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Tony West
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 10:22:42 pm

[Andy Field] "it was a joke"

I don't miss much

But you can back-paddle if you want to.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 30, 2017 at 2:38:13 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "you can bring import an iMovie iOS project into 10.4"

Digging this idea. Would love to be able to rough a few things out on an iPad and bring them up to 10.4.

Funny thing is that I was doing a Premiere gig last week and was enjoying the Lumetri color panel. Now it looks like FCPX will have similar, in the software I vastly prefer to work with. Good times.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 30, 2017 at 4:01:43 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Digging this idea. Would love to be able to rough a few things out on an iPad and bring them up to 10.4."

It will be interesting to see if this works. In my experience iMovie iOS doesn't correctly deal with fractional frame rates. I think this is really only intended for camera footage shot on an iPhone or iPad with Apple's software and NOT using third party camera apps.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 1:00:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I think this is really only intended for camera footage shot on an iPhone or iPad with Apple's software and NOT using third party camera apps.
"


Or a Red camera in the future? Seriously though, it will be interesting to test.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 11:46:00 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Seriously though, it will be interesting to test."

Unless Apple has fixed this issue in iMovie iOS, then this was the issue I ran into when working on my iPad Pro review:

"For editors, the built in option is iMovie. It is possible to edit external material, if you brought it in via the card reader, DropBox, iCloud Drive, or by syncing with your regular computer. (Apple’s suggested transfer path is via AirDrop.) Once you’ve edited your piece, you can move the project file from iOS iMovie to iMovie on your computer using iCloud Drive and then import that project into Final Cut Pro X. In my tests, the media was embedded into the project and none of the original timecode or file names were maintained. Frame rates were also changed from 29.97fps to 30.0fps. Clearly if you intend to use this path, it’s best for video originated on the iPad itself."

It will be interesting to revisit this with FCPX 10.4, but I suspect we won't see any change related to iMovie.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Hadley
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 29, 2017 at 2:01:05 pm

Well, call me jaded but 10.4 seems pretty meh.

While the 360/VR is cool for what I imagine to be a tiny niche market, it reminds me of the 3D titles update. Cool, but--way, way down on the list.

The more sophisticated/standardized color controls are welcome but again, with Color Finale and Chromatic out there, not high on the list. Moreover, those two plug-in developers are among the most ardent proponents of FCPX, and now Apple has just punched them in the gut.

So: kinda disappointing. And I'm sure most folks would agree that enhanced audio mixing or send to Logic are at the top of the list. Nowhere to be seen.

I've been an X supporter since day one but 10.4 seems unimpressive at first glance.


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John Young
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 29, 2017 at 2:50:18 pm

I fully agree. It makes me glad I decided to stick with Premiere Pro for our company. They are consistently adding the things that we find useful. I still use FCPX for personal projects, but if the updates continue in this fashion, I will probably use it less and less just to keep consistent.

Maybe I don't have a wide enough viewpoint, but 360/VR seems a prime example of a niche which users could pay extra for as a plugin. How many people edit 360 content vs send an edit to ProTools for a mix? And you can't build in AAF export as a feature you can rely on being there regardless of which machine you happen to be working on? Seems crazy to me.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 30, 2017 at 2:44:38 pm

[John Young] "They are consistently adding the things that we find useful."

Like the social media panel and, yes, the VR/AR integration? Would these be better as plugin options from Adobe?

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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John Young
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 30, 2017 at 4:26:00 pm

I don't complain about them adding things like VR, because they are adding things that improve the editing experience, which is what I care about. The new title tool is a vast improvement in workflow. Shared projects are going to be really useful. Essential Sound is a great and useful addition.

Apple could just implement all of the features of Command Post and I'd be 10 times happier than them adding 3d titles. It's surprising to me that we still can't get timecode overlays 6 years in. CP does their best at adding the feature, but they are limited as to how far they can go with it.

I'm not a fan of pushing features to plugins. I move around a lot, and don't need the hassle of installing/activating/updating on several machines. I like a standard, full-featured application that I can count on being consistent.


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Brett Sherman
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 29, 2017 at 9:07:19 pm

[Michael Hadley] "The more sophisticated/standardized color controls are welcome but again, with Color Finale and Chromatic out there, not high on the list. Moreover, those two plug-in developers are among the most ardent proponents of FCPX, and now Apple has just punched them in the gut."

I think certainly they knew the possibility that Apple would improve their color correction tools. And Chromatic especially has features which Apple likely will never have like tracking masks. Color Finale has X-Rite Color Checker integration.

As a user of Color Finale, I welcome Apple's addition. It's always better to use integrated solutions in my book. They stay with projects long term. Are less buggy. Render faster. You don't have to maintain licenses, etc. It's a win-win for the editor.

--------------------------
Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it's video related I'll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 29, 2017 at 9:39:38 pm

Was there also a screening of "Off The Tracks"? If so, how was it?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Gabriel Spaulding
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 10:39:34 pm

"Off the Tracks" was fantastic. A work in progress to be sure, but it was thoroughly enjoyable and watching it in a room filled with professional FCP X users, members of the Pro Apps team, and the film's creator Bradley Olsen, was an amazing experience.

I'm not sure how it will be received outside the FCP X community since so many people have decided to hate FCP X whether they've actually used it or not, no matter how much it has developed over the years. Flying home from the FCP X Creative Summit I read a post online, "People still use FCP X? Lol." All you can do is roll your eyes. To be in the company of so many editors from all over the world, all using FCP X successfully, from public access shows to weddings to corporate videos to broadcast television to feature films, and read yet another sarcastic, ill-informed comment like that, is just absurd. I have been in threads that have shown dozens and dozens of professional projects created in FCP X and someone still posts, "FCP X is not professional." Talk about a reality tunnel.

The film was a blast. But like all things related to FCP X I anticipate a wave of negativity with little to no merit.

Gabriel Spaulding
Creator & Director of ACE Enterprizes
Videographer | Video Editor | Motion Designer

How Can We Help You Tell Your Story?
http://www.aceenterprizes.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 12:08:00 am

[Gabriel Spaulding] " is just absurd. "

I agree that it's absurd, but post-purchase rationalization is everywhere. I mean, I don't think I can go more than a few days w/o seeing an X supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB. Or a PPro supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB. Or an Avid MC supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB. Oh, the bane of being NLE agnostic, I get to experience the best, and worst, of each NLE (and their communities). 😉


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Gabriel Spaulding
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 1:56:19 am

"I don't think I can go more than a few days w/o seeing an X supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB. Or a PPro supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB. Or an Avid MC supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB."

I've seen FCP X users poke at Premiere among fellow FCP X users —many of whom have actually used or currently also use Premiere— but I've never seen a FCP X user jump on an Adobe forum to assault Premiere users. I can't say that never happens, I just haven't experienced that and I do visit Adobe forums because I am in a situation that requires me to use Adobe software. I have seen countless people jump on specifically FCP X forums spreading misinformation and malice, however.

There are things FCP X does that are legitimately better (faster, more efficient, more fluid) than other NLEs, but the same is true of Premiere Pro and Avid. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. The past six years it really feels like FCP X users have been asked to prove their professionalism, and the professionalism of their tools, when the same is never asked of Premiere Pro or Avid users.

The mistake people make is that they form an opinion of one NLE and deem it unfit for their needs, and then hyper inflate their opinion of it and state that the NLE is unfit for everyone's needs. It's childish. Some people just don't understand why someone would use FCP X, and they cannot let it go.

Gabriel Spaulding
Creator & Director of ACE Enterprizes
Videographer | Video Editor | Motion Designer

How Can We Help You Tell Your Story?
http://www.aceenterprizes.com


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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 8:12:06 am

[Gabriel Spaulding] "The mistake people make is that they form an opinion of one NLE and deem it unfit for their needs, and then hyper inflate their opinion of it and state that the NLE is unfit for everyone's needs. It's childish. Some people just don't understand why someone would use FCP X, and they cannot let it go.
"


Fortunately we don't get that sort of behaviour on here any more

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 30, 2017 at 6:24:02 am

[Brett Sherman] "It's always better to use integrated solutions in my book."

Which is what I've said all along but many X fans say third party plugins are best. I've been watching this thread for interest because my initial reaction to the update was that it was minor, basically playing catchup and again the 360/VR thing seems exactly the sort of niche that plugin people should be doing. If I was an X user I would be pretty disappointed. Meanwhile both Adobe and Blackmagic have added so many significant updates, features and improvements to all their products that this seems like meh.

Why are they not pushing the requested audio features to roles? The unique and potential differentiating features are not seeming to be developing.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 30, 2017 at 7:35:34 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Which is what I've said all along but many X fans say third party plugins are best. I've been watching this thread for interest because my initial reaction to the update was that it was minor, basically playing catchup and again the 360/VR thing seems exactly the sort of niche that plugin people should be doing. "

Tim Dashwood, who now works for Apple, made plugins that are now applied to FCPX. So in this case, Apple purchased (or acquired, or hired the guy, whatever the term) and made it part of the suite:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/04/23/apple-hires-3d-360vr-toolbox-deve...

My guess is that in order to incorporate all the Apple is going in the AR realm (which I know this is different 360/VR vs AR). If it's true that you can import iMovie projects in to FCPX, then adding a toolset to help with this seems to make a lot of sense.

As far as the color tools, I welcome them to be native to the suite, especially greater LUT control and color space input/output. I am a long time Color Finale user, and will probably still use it (and still use the color board). Having the controls built in will be a good thing (plus I like the Sat control right on the wheel, it's a nice upgrade).

I would definitely like to see more mechanics being developed and released (media management, timeline navigation, Logic style Track Stacks, etc) but overall I think this will be a good update.

I know that many people have been asking for audio upgrades, my guess is that we will get them eventually.

So yes. Plugins are good if it takes Apple a long time to implement native effects. I don't know if plug-ins are "best" but they are certainly are best if they fill an actual hole in overall NLE capability.


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 12:47:28 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Oct 31, 2017 at 1:22:59 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Plugins are good if it takes Apple a long time to implement native effects."

So in the past when I criticised Apple for not building in a lot of what I considered basic functionality, the cry went out that plugins are best but when Apple finally builds functionality in it is best? Confusing and a tad hypocritical to me, but carry on loving them for it. (not aimed specifically at you Jeremy, more a general comment)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 1:33:35 am

[Michael Gissing] "So in the past when I criticised Apple for not building in a lot of what I considered basic functionality, the cry went out that plugins are best but when Apple finally builds functionality in it is best?"

It's the 'Jobs Doctrine', crap on everything that you aren't doing, then praise it once you start doing it. ;)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 2:53:13 am

[Michael Gissing] "So in the past when I criticised Apple for not building in a lot of what I considered basic functionality, the cry went out that plugins are best but when Apple finally builds functionality in it is best?"

This isn’t unique to Apple. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I think, and I may be wrong, you are specifically taking about OMF or AAF support as being one of the big reasons you balked at FCPX’s professionalism back in the day. You felt that something like X2Pro should be unnecessary.

It’s not like FCPX didn’t have tools for grading or LUTs before this announcement. It does. Now, the tools are much more enhanced. With the huge range of color space options, it makes sense that apple would start to handle this process (that started with LogC support back in v10.0.8 or so) in the app. When adding HDR capability, there are certain tools that need to come along with it. Adding the color tools to manipulate and monitor this correctly and accurately (not to mention swiftly) simply makes logical sense to me.

Meanwhile, X2Pro works great, while not a plug-in but a stand-alone app, it gets updated and fixed much more quickly than Apple would do. In this use case, I’d call X2Pro best. It is a great example of third party support done well. Handing off primary color transforms to third parties makes less sense to me.


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 5:50:22 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Oct 31, 2017 at 11:07:22 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think, and I may be wrong, you are specifically taking about OMF or AAF support as being one of the big reasons you balked at FCPX’s professionalism back in the day. You felt that something like X2Pro should be unnecessary."

Yes I was - basic functionality in every other NLE. It took far too long for a way to get audio out of the island that was X. That and six iterations of xml before they had a reliable way to get off the island.


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Tom Sefton
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 12:28:14 am

Apple buying Tim Dashwoods plug-ins was a key thing that indicates their view of how important 360 and VR creation could be for content producers. He had figured out how to do something that even oculus refused to support on their own website and proved that Apple hardware was fast enough to be used for 360/VR. This is why having native support for VR is better than plugins - because it requires a complete understanding between hardware and software producers which hasn’t been there before now.

If fcpx is going to natively support the HTC Vive, this indicates a major shift because it means that htc will have to produce a Mac driver - even if this is only supported by the new iMac pro.

Apple are damned if they do and damned if the don’t with VR - it’s excellent they have added the native support and the non specific release date to me could indicate a timed release with the iMac pro and official drivers from htc/Apple.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Ronny Courtens
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 7:30:41 am

You hit the nail right on the head, Tom. And not only for the 360/VR part of the game.

The new VR tools in FCP X are way more than just the Dashwood plug-ins being integrated in the NLE interface. Alex Gollner, who has quite some experience with VR and is a good friend of Tim Dashwood, says that "the next version of Final Cut Pro X will be the first professional editing tool that inherently understands spherical video." And he has explained this in more detail here: @alex4d/apple-to-introduce-next-level-professional-vr-video-tools-in-final-cut-pro-x-and-motion-5-855226168aeb'>https://medium.com/@alex4d/apple-to-introduce-next-level-professional-vr-video-tools-in-final-cut-pro-x-and-motion-5-855226168aeb

The same goes for the Color update. It's way more than just color wheels being added to the toolset. IMO the color wheels are actually the least important feature in this update (although they do look pretty neat). It's about being able to add very powerful corrections without affecting realtime performance, even when working with high resolution media on standard hardware. That is something that cannot be achieved with the current third-party color plugins for FCP X, and it's something that other grading and editing applications still struggle with. So it's a very welcome update that goes far beyond "features".

- Ronny


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Ronny Courtens
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 7:35:30 am

Oops, I notice that the link to Alex's article has been scrambled. This is the correct link:

@alex4d/apple-to-introduce-next-level-professional-vr-video-tools-in-final-cut-pro-x-and-motion-5-855226168aeb'>https://medium.com/@alex4d/apple-to-introduce-next-level-professional-vr-video-tools-in-final-cut-pro-x-and-motion-5-855226168aeb

- Ronny


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Gabriel Spaulding
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 11:06:44 pm

Rather than requiring every user to pay for features they will never use FCP X has a vibrant 3rd party community that helps users meet the needs of their particular niche. For the most part this works very well. In the case of the new color tools in FCP X 10.4 it appears that Apple decided it best to provide those tools to all users. This is a good thing. I have no insight into Apple's decision making process, no idea how they determine what should be built-in and what is best left to 3rd party developers, but new functionality is never a bad thing (provided it is well-implemented).

"If I was an X user I would be pretty disappointed."

You are not an X user. FCP X users are by and large NOT disappointed by the little we know about the 10.4 update.

"Why are they not pushing the requested audio features to roles?"

All in good time. We've only had Roles (in their current form) for about a year, and they were a significant workflow improvement. Apple has a patent on a Roles-based mixer. While some companies like to bolt on new features regardless of how well they are implemented, doing things the same way they've always been done, with FCP X Apple takes a different approach. Is it always better? No. Is it frequently better? Yes —depending on who you are and how you like to work.

Gabriel Spaulding
Creator & Director of ACE Enterprizes
Videographer | Video Editor | Motion Designer

How Can We Help You Tell Your Story?
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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 11:20:54 pm

[Gabriel Spaulding]"All in good time. We've only had Roles (in their current form) for about a year, and they were a significant workflow improvement."

In that time Blackmagic purchased Fairlight and put it inside Resolve (not yet finished but pretty amazing). My point is all about how long that "all in good time" seems to me. Yes I am not an X user, hence why I ask if the pace of development as evidenced by the announced updates is satisfying to users. I'm particularly interested in the audio developments as X has always presented as a tool to edit and finish. The improvements to the grade tools seems evidence of that but comparing the pace of development to other companies I again ask if Apple are meeting expectations and desires.


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Gabriel Spaulding
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 12:31:25 am

"I again ask if Apple are meeting expectations and desires."

Rather than piling code on top of old code Apple took a risk, wiped the slate clean, and built FCP X from the ground up, delivering a new video editing paradigm that covers both organization and editing. The amount of development it has seen in the past six years is damn impressive. For some the risk was well worth it. For others it was not, and no matter how powerful FCP X becomes they will never be swayed. So be it. Based on the numbers of FCP X users Apple is reporting I'd say that all in all people are satisfied.

There is a big difference between simply bolting on a feature and re-thinking a feature and implementing it in a novel way. Inventing new ways of doing things takes more time.

Those who think keywords and smart collections are just like bins clearly have not grasped the power of keywords and smart collections. Those who think the magnetic timeline is nothing more than a permanent ripple edit mode are completely oblivious to the core of what the magnetic timeline functionally is. One has every right to prefer tracks, or to prefer bins. There is nothing wrong with having a personal preference.

Every NLE comes with its own strengths and weaknesses. I have my own list of things I'd love to see in FCP X. When I was a Premiere user, though, I wasn't looking for new features, I wished that the existing features were implemented differently. I hated using Premiere. I could get my work done, but it was a frustrating, clunky experience for me. That doesn't make Premiere a bad NLE, it was just bad for me. FCP X works extremely well for me. I actually LOVE using it. FCP X meets my expectations and desires, and those of at least 2 million others.

Gabriel Spaulding
Creator & Director of ACE Enterprizes
Videographer | Video Editor | Motion Designer

How Can We Help You Tell Your Story?
http://www.aceenterprizes.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 12:47:57 am

Thanks Gabriel but I wasn't asking about the past six years but whether this latest release is progressing things for users. Plus our resident X champion, Bill, has been banging on like this for years so it really doesn't need the rehash history lesson.

I've been on this forum the whole six plus years since it began so again I ask the simple question of whether 10.4 is a good release for X users or disappointing.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 1:04:43 am

[Michael Gissing] "I've been on this forum the whole six plus years since it began so again I ask the simple question of whether 10.4 is a good release for X users or disappointing"

I think it depends on whether one thinks that anything Apple does is insanely great or not ☺

Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 1:14:24 am

[Oliver Peters] "I think it depends on whether one thinks that anything Apple does is insanely great or not ☺"

True. Probably wasting my time asking. Either the same old patronizing history revisionists or meh response. From my view on the side lines I don't see much innovation in this release apart from the 360/VR which might be argued to be catchup to Premiere & Fusion or are they going to be doing it better? Not my area so hard to gauge. Are Apple late to the party or doing something innovatively different?


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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 8:09:49 am

[Michael Gissing] "I've been on this forum the whole six plus years since it began so again I ask the simple question of whether 10.4 is a good release for X users or disappointing."

Well there are quite a few users in the various FCPX FB groups who aren't that impressed, my personal opinion is that it's a solid update but not particularly exciting. I might be more impressed if I worked with 360/VR though.

However it's not actually out yet so I'm looking forward to seeing what the smaller improvements are when it arrives

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 8:39:42 am

[Steve Connor] "my personal opinion is that it's a solid update but not particularly exciting."

Thanks for the feedback Steve.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 1:45:14 am

[Gabriel Spaulding] "The amount of development it has seen in the past six years is damn impressive."

Considering that development most likely started a couple of years before release, you are probably looking at 8 years of development. By that yardstick and comparing to what BMD has done in the same timeframe, it’s pretty pedestrian. You can like what they’ve done or not, but based on quantity of development, it’s a pretty slow pace.

Then you have to factor a redesign of the UI because they got it wrong out of the gate. Apple released a somewhat skeuomorphic UI at a time when the rest of the design industry, including the rest of Apple, had moved away from that. Plus you’ve got the big misstep (or incomplete development at time of release) when Libraries were missed at time of launch. So let’s look at this objectively.

Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 2:21:40 am

[Oliver Peters] "So let’s look at this objectively."

Absolutely.

We’re roughly kinda comparing the public facing performance upgrades from...

the past 4 years of Black Magic
against the past 6 years of X
and the past 10 years of Premiere.

I’ll give AVID a pass unless someone wants to include it - since the conventional wisdom appears to be the AVID folk aren’t really seeking innovative change - just improvements in the status quo. If I’m wrong, somebody will correct me, I’m sure.

So over the past 4 years, (when they’ve all been competing head to head)
Which tool do you feel has made the most progress? Is there a clear leader?
Or are they all evolving at about the same pace?

I’d be interested in others opinions.

Features, innovations, stability, speed, - pick your preference and make your case for where your tool outshines the others. I’ll just observe.

What stands out in each?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 9:54:45 am

[Bill Davis] "I’ll give AVID a pass unless someone wants to include it"

I'll include them, because there's still a lot of development going on even if it doesn't affect the UI as much. For example, in that time, they converted a 32-bit app into a 64-bit app, largely without skipping a beat, nor causing major upheaval for its users.

[Bill Davis] "So over the past 4 years, (when they’ve all been competing head to head)
Which tool do you feel has made the most progress? Is there a clear leader? "


Absolutely Blackmagic Design.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Gabriel Spaulding
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 3:23:59 am

"Then you have to factor a redesign of the UI because they got it wrong out of the gate."

They got it wrong? I don't recall the initial UI itself preventing anyone from getting their work done. And I recall seeing clapping and cheering when it was first shown to the public.

"Plus you’ve got the big misstep (or incomplete development at time of release) when Libraries were missed at time of launch."

I see that as a great example of Apple doing what neither Adobe or Avid has done —re-thinking their approach and updating the infrastructure of the entire program. Was it really a misstep? Certainly Libraries are more flexible, but FCP X worked very well at launch.

I don't see the point of comparing the developmental pace of competing NLEs. How long did FCP X have the skimmer before Premiere got Hover Scrub (which only has a tiny fraction of the functionality of the skimmer)? How long did Adobe have Morph Cut before Apple got Flow? How long did Avid have collaboration features before Premiere? How long did Premiere have multicam before FCP X developed their multicam, which is arguably the best in the industry? None of that matters. Features for the sake of features —is that the smartest path to take? What matters most to me —objectively—is HOW those features are implemented, and if that takes more time I'm happy to wait. It's paid off so far.

Gabriel Spaulding
Creator & Director of ACE Enterprizes
Videographer | Video Editor | Motion Designer

How Can We Help You Tell Your Story?
http://www.aceenterprizes.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 4:29:45 am

[Gabriel Spaulding] "I've seen FCP X users poke at Premiere among fellow FCP X users —many of whom have actually used or currently also use Premiere— but I've never seen a FCP X user jump on an Adobe forum to assault Premiere users."

I agree that when it comes to software specific help forums it's generally a more homogeneous group, but if you go to places that are less software specific (some place that has a general 'filmmaking' forum, for example) you get a lot more butting of heads because it's a more heterogeneous environment. And in the case of social media, I follow a lot of different people on Twitter and I belong to the major FB groups for X, PPro, Avid and Resolve so there are lot of different users (and their opinions) that flow through my social feeds.

[Gabriel Spaulding] "I see that as a great example of Apple doing what neither Adobe or Avid has done —re-thinking their approach and updating the infrastructure of the entire program. "

Adobe went back to square one with Premiere Pro and Avid has changed a lot with MC (AMA, 3rd party I/O support, etc.,.). Avid also demo'd a collaborative, cloud-based NLE at NAB in 2010, and they had a very well reviewed iOS NLE (Avid Studio for iPad) in 2011/2012 that let you transfer projects to the desktop version of Avid Studio (not MC).

To you point though, I think Apple can be more flexible than Adobe or Avid because Apple doesn't depend on post/production/creative customers to keep the lights on.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 12:42:27 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "To you point though, I think Apple can be more flexible than Adobe or Avid because Apple doesn't depend on post/production/creative customers to keep the lights on."

Apple also can focus on only developing for Apple OSs. No need to make it work also with Windows and/or Linux and/or Android. Plus, as it relates to FCPX/Motion/Compressor, the ProApps team can leverage some of the development that's already been done by the macOS engineers. So they don't have to create each and every piece of the media architecture independent of the OS.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 10:05:49 am

[Gabriel Spaulding] "They got it wrong? I don't recall the initial UI itself preventing anyone from getting their work done"

Definitely got it wrong. Whether or not it worked well isn't the issue. You're talking about pace of development. They started the design, most likely before design trends changed, and then had to make changes a few versions later. Making such a change after release means that other feature requests go unaddressed.

[Gabriel Spaulding] "I see that as a great example of Apple doing what neither Adobe or Avid has done —re-thinking their approach and updating the infrastructure of the entire program. Was it really a misstep? Certainly Libraries are more flexible, but FCP X worked very well at launch. "

It was either a misstep or the product was released incomplete. IMHO, 10.0-10.1 was essentially a public beta. If you created edits prior to 10.1, those edits didn't completely translate to 10.1 because of this change. I know - I had a few film that went through that transition. If you have a brand new design, those are things (Libraries or not) that have to be factored in. Not doing so is bad research, or simply trying to force a model onto customers that they don't find adequate.

[Gabriel Spaulding] "What matters most to me —objectively—is HOW those features are implemented, and if that takes more time I'm happy to wait"

That's changing the discussion. We were talking about pace of development, not specific feature comparisons. The fact that the app works is great and isn't being questioned. It's really a matter of whether it could have been/can be more in the same time frame.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 2:19:57 pm

[Gabriel Spaulding] "What matters most to me —objectively—is HOW those features are implemented, and if that takes more time I'm happy to wait. It's paid off so far."

You are not the only one that thinks this way. If speed of development is top priority for most, there should be a lot more interest in BM. As fast as they move and as affordable as it is, I don't see anybody in my town moving to it as their main ax. I don't think people who sell it on here even use it as their main ax. And all the traffic is on this X forum. Crickets on theirs.

X didn't have multi-cam when it came out, but it's awesome now. It didn't have Lanes when it came out but it's awesome now. I like how the tools are implemented in X better than other programs whenever they get in there.
THAT'S, my top priority.

I was getting it done in X before Libraries and I'm getting it done after Libraries. Not a big deal.


As far as this update goes, I'm glad they put 360 in there. Even though I don't currently use it myself, I see it all over the place and I want to be ready if a client asks me for it. Heck, our local newspaper is even using it (online).

I'm glad they didn't mess with my color board : )

Right now I feel like there is not much a client can ask me to do that I can't get done inside of X.

I'm not looking to get out of it either. I want to be able to finish sound, and grade right inside the program. I know others need to send out, but I know going in that every producer of these NLE's has as their goal to keep you in their program. I go about my work with that in mind. If I ever did send out to an advanced sound person I would be looking for a Michael Wohl type who understands sound and X, the program I started in.

Plenty of talented folks out there these days using X. I'd find them.


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Gabriel Spaulding
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 3:26:19 pm

I agree completely.

The overall approach with FCP X seems to be to provide an extremely capable and stable NLE that does most things for most people, and rather than requiring everyone to pay for features they don't need we can seek out 3rd party plug-ins to add on functionality. I've purchased Color Finale and Chromatic but with the new color tools in 10.4 I will no longer need those (I generally prefer Apple's implementation of these sorts of tools anyway, particularly as I saw how they worked while at the FCP X Creative Summit). That is one area where Apple seems to have decided it best to provide these tools rather than requiring 3rd party tools. Of course, one could buy nearly every 3rd party tool and still come in cheaper than the annual cost of a Creative Cloud subscription.

Most of the complaints about the features that FCP X should have built-in are relevant to the high-end broadcast community and Hollywood. However, while these are huge, high profile industries they are a very small percentage of the total market, and these apparent missing features haven't stopped companies from producing top notch broadcast content and Hollywood films within the FCP X ecosystem.

I'm curious about what Avid does, what Adobe does, what Blackmagic does. It's interesting to me. But what they do has little to no effect on my workflow and my ability to produce content, because I am a FCP X user. I wonder why so many Avid and Premiere users are so obsessed with the development of FCP X if it does not affect them? Six years in it feels like Apple could add every possible feature and it still won't sway anyone's opinion of FCP X. This isn't a problem with FCP X, it's an emotional problem. Too many people can't let go, and don't want to share the same playground.

Gabriel Spaulding
Creator & Director of ACE Enterprizes
Videographer | Video Editor | Motion Designer

How Can We Help You Tell Your Story?
http://www.aceenterprizes.com


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Matthew Ross
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 3:43:27 pm

[Gabriel Spaulding] " I wonder why so many Avid and Premiere users are so obsessed with the development of FCP X if it does not affect them? "

I also wonder about that when the replies go beyond what would seem just a general interest; for me it’s just about keeping up with what’s going on in the edit world.

FCPX didn’t meet our needs when it first came out (and still doesn’t in some ways), so when it came time to decide where to go from FCP 7, we chose Premiere. And then we eventually moved on to PC. So FCPX isn’t an option (without a lot of change) for us right now, but I still read these threads because I like to keep an eye on what the industry is doing—you never know what the future has in store.

I won’t say I don’t also find the occasional drama entertaining too.



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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 10:36:00 pm

[Gabriel Spaulding] "I wonder why so many Avid and Premiere users are so obsessed with the development of FCP X if it does not affect them?"

Anyone editing should be interested in all tools relevant to their work. In my case I'm at the finish end (grading in Resolve & audio post in Fairlight) so the quirks of each NLE impacts on my business. I need to get video & audio out so how each NLE works and delivers is highly relevant.

In the same way you write "I'm curious about what Avid does, what Adobe does, what Blackmagic does. It's interesting to me." Unsurprisingly non X users are similarly interested in what Apple is doing. We all justify our choices and think our perspective is the superior position but curiosity and an ability to be a bit more detached in deciding where to put your money in software is just being professional.


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Neil Goodman
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 3, 2017 at 4:45:05 am

[Gabriel Spaulding] " wonder why so many Avid and Premiere users are so obsessed with the development of FCP X if it does not affect them? Six years in it feels like Apple could add every possible feature and it still won't sway anyone's opinion of FCP X. This isn't a problem with FCP X, it's an emotional problem. Too many people can't let go, and don't want to share the same playground."


I'm interested because I'm an editor. Simple as that. If one day FCPX can become my main tool it will. I hold no affection for software, no emotional attachments.

What's more curious to me, is why after 6 years, X users still feel the need to overly defend X and justify their reasons for using it. usually with the same argument over and over again. If you lovei t -thats great for you, let us people who teter on the edge debate about how and why it could be better.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 3, 2017 at 5:32:11 pm

[Gabriel Spaulding] "I wonder why so many Avid and Premiere users are so obsessed with the development of FCP X if it does not affect them? Six years in it feels like Apple could add every possible feature and it still won't sway anyone's opinion of FCP X. This isn't a problem with FCP X, it's an emotional problem. Too many people can't let go, and don't want to share the same playground."

I don't think it has anything to do with Avid or Premiere users, it's just humanity. Mac vs PC, Chevy vs Ford, Gibson vs Fender, Snap-on vs Craftsman, IndyCar vs F1, Xbox vs Playstation, Scripted vs Reality, etc.,.

Somewhere in the FCP X lore it gained traction that X has been beaten on like no other NLE (or possible even no other product) before it and I just don't see it. X is going through the same growing pains that everything else goes through. I mean, six years into the life of FCP Legend and it was still seen in major markets as an NLE for people that can't afford a 'real' NLE even though the feature set was mature and it wasn't fighting the uphill battle of 'reinventing editing'. I think product years 8 and 9 were probably the strongest in terms of momentum in the industry (of course all that momentum came to a screeching halt when Apple hit the reset button in a massive way with X).

But even with the levels of acceptance Legend made there were still a lot of people that saw it as a lesser program. It's just the way things go. In the NLE space I think Premiere has probably has the longest slog, and I regularly run into people that have sworn off Avid because Avid did something to piss them of in 2005. Speaking of Avid, I doubt linear and film editors welcomed Avid with open, loving arms when it first rolled off the line in '89.

Maybe the reason some X users perceive more heat is because many former FCP Legend users moved to Avid and/or PPro so hangouts (both real and virtual) that used to be FCP-centric changed to having a more mixed clientele. This change caused the inherently insular situation of FCP users hanging out with FCP users, Avid users hanging out with Avid users, etc., to be disrupted. For a time X users were 'homeless' until the community grew and congealed enough to find/create their own X-centric hangouts.


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Gabriel Spaulding
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 3, 2017 at 6:07:53 pm

Those are all valid points that put things in a nice context.

"This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error." —HAL 9000

Gabriel Spaulding
Creator & Director of ACE Enterprizes
Videographer | Video Editor | Motion Designer

How Can We Help You Tell Your Story?
http://www.aceenterprizes.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 3, 2017 at 6:25:38 pm

[Gabriel Spaulding] ""This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error." —HAL 9000"

LOL, perfect quote (even more so since I just finished watching HBO's Westworld).


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Erik Lindahl
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 10:29:38 am

I wonder if they're going to sort out the compound clip nightmare when sending edits to apps like Resolve.

Also… FIX THE GA-DAMMED A/V OUT! FCP CLASSIC HAD THIS IN THE 1990's!


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Noah Kadner
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 3:05:24 pm

What do you mean by fix the AV out?

Noah

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Erik Lindahl
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 5:36:35 pm

AV output via a video interface is pretty much broken. Very laggy and almost unusable for anything but play-though of a final edit.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 3:37:44 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "I wonder if they're going to sort out the compound clip nightmare when sending edits to apps like Resolve."

You can un-compound them in Resolve. Simple right-click menu option away.

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Erik Lindahl
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 5:35:12 pm

De-compose compound clips work sometimes and sometimes not. Also if you get a 20 min short film where every single clip is a compound clip and a lot of them even have compounds with-in compounds and you want to send clips to VFX... iiiiish!


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 6:16:13 pm

Ah...point taken

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 7:19:21 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "De-compose compound clips work sometimes and sometimes not. "

Decompose usually works if there's only effect from FCPX (I don't know why Resolve compounds those clips, must be the way it handles it in FCPXML and therefore processing?) It also happens on repositioned clips (or 4k in 1080 timelines)

Decompose does not work with time remapped clips. I usually have to rebuild those clips in Resolve. This works great, as Resolve's time remapping is very similar in functionality to FCPX, but it does take a while to do. The good thing is that once it is rebuilt in FCPX, the send back usually works well in FCPX via FCPXML.

I was hoping this would be better in Resolve v14, but it's the same as previous versions.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 7:58:36 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Oct 31, 2017 at 8:02:08 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "them even have compounds with-in compounds and you want to send clips to VFX... iiiiish!"

That just makes me shake my head.
Reference clips buried within reference clips is a sign to me that an editor doesn’t really understand X very well - and are maybe trying to re-capture “nesting” behaviors they relied on in other software approaches.
“Let me just compound the compound that holds my Sync clips!” - what could go wrong with that?
Getting layers and layers away from the actual clip data pool via “over referencing” is a recipe for angst later in on your workflow, IME.
YMMV.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 8:52:09 pm

[Bill Davis] "Reference clips buried within reference clips is a sign to me that an editor doesn’t really understand X very well"

I believe he's talking about Resolve.

Sometimes, like if a clip is retimed, Resolve will put the entire source clip within a compound clip when you import an FCPXML regardless of how the clip is displayed in FCPX. It's weird.


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Oct 31, 2017 at 9:10:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Sometimes, like if a clip is retimed, Resolve will put the entire source clip within a compound clip when you import an FCPXML regardless of how the clip is displayed in FCPX. It's weird."

Yes it is annoying but I have also seen compounds within compounds after importing to Resolve via fcpxml. I think editors might do it to apply a single effect to a bunch of clips. Same reason nesting was sometimes done. It seems strange that Resolve hasn't fixed this or maybe they are just being 100% compliant to the fcpxml standard. They were, after all, one of the first finishing tools to get this format working otherwise reliably. Hard to know were the blame may be.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 12:59:33 pm

This is exactly the case. For the short film we did I couldn't figure out when or why it behaved like that.

- Some clips had the entire source clip in a compound clip with source clip TC, with just the given section in the active timeline. These I could de-compose but they still cause head-aches.

- Some clips had the entire source clip in a compound in another compound with reset TC. These where a mess to deal with.

When you try to media manage a project like this Resolve simply takes EVERYTHING since, technically, every bit of media is used (given only in un-nessasy compound clips).

I've never seen this odd behaviour from any other editor but I've seen it from the last 3 FCPX shot shows cut by 3 different editors. Likely a FCPX / Resolve or FCPXML "feature" / "bug". Edits do translate very well BUT this causes serious head-aches for a lot of workflows.


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Eric Santiago
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 1:15:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "Reference clips buried within reference clips is a sign to me that an editor doesn’t really understand X very well - and are maybe trying to re-capture “nesting” behaviors they relied on in other software approaches. "

I ran into this issue with a short edited by the Director/Writer.
Since it was a short, I had to try and break all the clips apart.
Resolve wasn't having a hard time with the CC but I can't stand working on messy edits.
I know if I edited I would make sure its all in the Primary and no anomalies.
Now I wish FCPX had the old legacy jooin/merge clips option.
I know this can be fixed in Resolve but would like to have it back in FCPX.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 3:37:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "Reference clips buried within reference clips is a sign to me that an editor doesn’t really understand X very well - and are maybe trying to re-capture “nesting” behaviors they relied on in other software approaches."

Exactly. That's when you go and kick the editor in the shin and tell them to get their sh** together before coming to finish.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andy Field
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 5:54:11 pm

We must do it the Apple way.....and no other!

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 2:31:06 am

[Andy Field] "We must do it the Apple way.....and no other!"

When “The Apple Way” is significantly less stupid. Then yes.

The goal is to get the work done.

Knowing how the software actually functions is traditionally a pretty good way to improve the chance of that happening.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 9:48:56 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "That's when you go and kick the editor in the shin and tell them to get their sh** together before coming to finish."

To be fair to some editors they don't realise compounding happens when any clip in X has an effect applied and is then sent to Resolve as an xml. I had a feature doc with heaps of compounds after the editor assured me he had gone through and decomposed all compounds but there is a translate issue with fcpxml to Resolve that compounds clips that aren't. At least in Resolve it is possible to select multiple clips to decompose unless they have any speed changes. Apart from this annoying behaviour, X to Resolve via fcpxml is pretty robust.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 11:26:14 pm

[Michael Gissing] "but there is a translate issue with fcpxml to Resolve that compounds clips that aren't."

Hate to be that guy, but I do think it's a Resolve issue.

There have been issues in the past, and simply by modifying the XML in text, you could fix the problem (this was on XML Export from Resolve in to FCPX).

If a guy like me can figure out how to validate the XML, I'm sure the smart folks at DaVinci/Blackmagic can do it.

If you export and then import an XML in to FCPX, you don't get all the compound clips.

If you read the resulting XMLs from Resolve, you can see that compounds are written in to the XML. So it's definitely on the Resolve side as those same compounds are not in the FCP XML.

Maybe someone should write a Resolve XML cleaner. But....third party be damned..... :)


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 1, 2017 at 11:32:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Maybe someone should write a Resolve XML cleaner. But....third party be damned..... :)"

I should point out that I am not against such software. After all I have iZotope, Boris Continuum, Voxengo and Red Giant plug ins, plus AATranslator to clean up AAFs, OMFs etc". My argument has always hinged around core and non core functionality which is always just a matter of opinion and where you sit in the workflow chain.

You are probably correct that it is on the BM side. How easy is it on the X side to strip out all effects prior to exporting an xml?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 12:42:29 am

[Michael Gissing] "You are probably correct that it is on the BM side. How easy is it on the X side to strip out all effects prior to exporting an xml?"

Easy. There’s a “Remove Effects” command these days.

Also, an extremely handy utility is here which will remove the effects and write it back to the xml, which means you don’t need FCPX to see what effects remain in the XML and remove them: http://www.spherico.com/filmtools/X-Files/X-FXHandler/


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 2, 2017 at 12:51:48 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Easy. There’s a “Remove Effects” command these days."

Thanks. Exactly the info I need. The Spherico tool looks good but I am not resending back to X or Pr these days mostly but if a client wants it and will bother to use the tool then that's great info I can pass on.


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Doug Metz
Re: FCP X Summit: new features/news
on Nov 9, 2017 at 5:17:24 pm

[Michael Gissing] "The Spherico tool looks good but I am not resending back to X or Pr these days mostly but if a client wants it and will bother to use the tool then that's great info I can pass on."

It also works great for stripping effects prior to import in Resolve, to reduce the false compounding.


[Eric Santiago] "Now I wish FCPX had the old legacy join/merge clips option."

It's in there... assuming the two adjacent clips are sequential in the master clip - third one down in the Trim menu.

Doug Metz

Anode


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