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RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?

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Andre van Berlo
RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 7, 2017 at 4:23:28 am
Last Edited By Andre van Berlo on Oct 7, 2017 at 4:29:21 am

A few days ago i read an article from some apple rumours site that apple might be building a new 8K display to go along with the 2018 mac pro. (
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/new-apple-8k-retina-display-rumours-rele... )

I didn't think much of it until i saw that RED has released an 8K camera ( http://www.red.com/products/weapon )

Since apple has a closer working relationship now with RED perhaps we should expect a new Mac that will easily edit 8K footage and a display that will show all those images in full resolution.

What are your thoughts?


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Bill Davis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 7, 2017 at 5:15:29 pm

Someday we’ll probably see a “bundle” on an Apple Store Web-site where ordering a turnkey 8K end-to-end Video Production system essentially becomes a single click “impulse purchase” thing? 🤑🎥

“Why, you whippersnapper, I remember when buying video gear took forever - you needed your integrators, engineers, purchase orders and bank approvals and it took weeks or MONTHS! You kids today - it’s all so easy - you don’t know ‘nothing!” (crabby old video pro walks away, fuming)

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andre van Berlo
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 7, 2017 at 6:00:56 pm

What kids use for video these days has definitely changed. At the college where i teach the students rarely use the "pro 4K cameras" but rather use their phones and dslrs instead. The pro camera's are simply collecting dust. Not saying the dslrs are better but they're sometimes more convenient for them i guess.

It wouldn't surprise me if RED and mac will be more integrated in a possible new mac pro. Not sure what kind of horsepower is needed to edit 8k footage but i am assuming it needs a seriously beefy workstation.


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Michael Gissing
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 2:22:32 am

[Andre van Berlo] "Not sure what kind of horsepower is needed to edit 8k footage but i am assuming it needs a seriously beefy workstation.

A lot of the beef needs to be in the graphic processors. 8 gig of on board graphics RAM is considered minimum for 4k so a suitable graphics card with a minimum 16 gig DDR GPU is required possibly more. Which is why I would expect a PC with onboard slots for such a beast of a card will be available sooner than a Mac Pro is likely to be. Also Apple will need to be giving better options for NVIDIA graphics as they are currently ahead of the game.

The idea of putting the GPU in the monitor is silly unless the GPU is fully upgradeable by a user. Monitors last years longer than a GPU. I've been upgrading GPU two to three times faster than display monitors. Also if you want to see 8k on a monitor, then via a Decklink type card is probably smarter so you see true color space and frame rates. Your computer monitors do not need to display 8k to edit but a separate display monitor that you can calibrate that displays everything from Rec 709 to HDR is a better bet. Also watching 8k on a monitor smaller than 30 inch is also not that smart. I'm grading 4k on a 65" LG monitor. Next purchase will be an OLED and if I jump to 8k it is likely 85" so I can see what 8k footage looks like in full size full res.


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Andre van Berlo
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 2:39:50 am

"a suitable graphics card with a minimum 16 gig DDR GPU is required possibly more. "

So in theory the new imac pro could edit it but wouldn't have the 8k display and have 5k instead.

I wonder what size an 8K apple display would be, can't imagine them going all the way to 65". If a monitor graphics card could handle just the display part of things and the mac pro's on board gpu the editing processes then that would be ok. But that's probably not how it works.


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Michael Gissing
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 3:11:51 am

[Andre van Berlo] "So in theory the new imac pro could edit it but wouldn't have the 8k display and have 5k instead."

Editing 8k is more than just GPU. Drive through put & CPU cores/ threads matter as well. An iMac would not be a machine I would think of when editing 8k unless it was a proxy workflow. The machines that need the real grunt are the ones doing the grading & finishing. They are less likely to be a Mac these days as Win or Linux machines are easier to build and upgrade with the latest grunt from the widest selection of manufacturers.

If the new MacPro is looking to play in that high end space then I would be surprised. I'm not sure they will have any advantage other than a personal preference for an OS. I think the days of Mac being at the forefront of hardware grunt for post production has past and I don't see they have much incentive to play in that space.

As to the general thing of RED and Apple seeming to be in a partnership, I am curious to see if it is serious or just a bit of vanity. I would have thought the best advantage for Apple to come from RED would be their Hydrogen phone screens. Much of the profit in an iPhone goes to Samsung for the screens. Maybe this dabble with production bundling is more to do with RED ultimately supplying phone and tablet screens to Apple. Curious then that the Hydrogen is Android, but then again so is Samsung phones.


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Robert d'Alexis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 3:12:17 am

[Michael Gissing] "A lot of the beef needs to be in the graphic processors. 8 gig of on board graphics RAM is considered minimum for 4k so a suitable graphics card with a minimum 16 gig DDR GPU is required possibly more. Which is why I would expect a PC with onboard slots for such a beast of a card will be available sooner than a Mac Pro is likely to be."

I believe such a card already exists: https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/en-zz/Solutions/design-visualization/doc...


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Michael Gissing
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 3:49:31 am

[Robert d'Alexis] "I believe such a card already exists:"

Yep that looks like the business. I'm sure a lot will wait for a GTX version so they can afford to buy two.


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Robert d'Alexis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 4:21:17 am

The 8 K monitor that goes with such beastly cards is also available courtesy of Dell :
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-ultrasharp-32-8k-monitor-up3218k/apd/21...
However, there is still the small matter of purchasing the new 8 K Red camera... :-)


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andy patterson
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 4:28:23 am

[Robert d'Alexis] "I believe such a card already exists: https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/en-zz/Solutions/design-visualization/doc....."

Benchmarks and YouTube videos have demonstrated the Quadro cards are inferior to the GeForce cards performance wise when using Premiere Pro.

Maya, 3DS MAX and Auto CAD might bring about very different results when using those same cards.


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 1:14:19 am

Like the RED Raven deal from Apple?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 7, 2017 at 8:54:48 pm

Well although it's a stunning new release from red, with a new sensor that performs much better in low light than ever before, it's not the first 8K camera from them. The first was the epic-w and was released in autumn 2016.

Certainly 8K will become a new standard for editing, but with the advancing clamour for VR, expect multistream 8K editing to be an aim for most hardware manufacturers, especially once red figures out how to make the 8K cameras smaller and lighter...

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Andre van Berlo
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 2:22:19 am

I didn't know that Tom, i think what triggered my curiousity is the 8k display rumour and the the new 8k camera from RED. especially since RED and apple are partners now and people were already speculating what could come from that partnership.

It is the first 8k RED camera since their partnership became known and it wouldn't surprise me if there might be more to it than what we can see at firdt glance. As Oliver pointed to Red Raven, and Bill to a bundle. I can't see why a pro machine , camera , and display couldn't be sold together. Anyone buying that camera will need a good workstation and maybe apple want to more fully integrate the 2.

Obviously i am guessing here. Partly because i would love to see a new modular mac and a new apple display...


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 10:10:01 am

I think what is going to be the key issue is offering a machine that can edit and grade 8K raw and a different story for 8K prores. The new HP machines are aiming at 8K raw performance, but with an eGPU, the razr, new MacBook Pro and iMac are probably able to edit 8K prores if the storage is fast enough. I'd predict that the new Mac Pro will have a giant single GPU inside that is upgradeable but with thunderbolt 3 and an egpu it could be doubled up

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 1:54:54 pm

So what's the fascination with 8K anyway? Theaters aren't close to that resolution and they are the gold standard. Most of the 4K you see isn't truly 4K resolution - especially if you are viewing a compressed format over the web or on an OTT channel.

I just did a job (2-cam interview) shot with an 8K RED and a 4K A7S. The A7S looked better in that case. The only interest I see now for 8K - and for most of 4K - is either bragging rights or to punch in, as needed. For example, Fincher shoots 6K, frames within 5K as "safe" (for repo and stabilization), and delivers 4K.

A lot of my jobs lately are shooting 4K, but cutting in 1080. I often punch into the 4K for tighter shots and end up having to slightly sharpen, because the punched-in 4K (even at less than 100%) is not as sharp as native 1080 and certainly not as sharp as 4K scaled down to 1080. Frankly, a lot of the 1080 scaled up 120-140% (for tighter angles) looks nearly as good, given the right camera.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 2:15:41 pm

It's a camera aimed at cinema and high end, not corporate. Arri has released the 65 and red has responded with this. Future proof, push boundaries and win the market - red know what will come next and that is higher resolution TV and cinema. Especially with the frame sync ability of red compared with Sony a7 etc for VR shoots

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 2:57:42 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Future proof, push boundaries and win the market "

Except that they haven't. Arri has beaten them in every respect, in spite of lower resolution by the numbers.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 3:06:56 pm

Arri wins for most features, red wins for VFX based work and for Netflix/amazon.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 3:23:39 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Arri wins for most features, red wins for VFX based work and for Netflix/amazon."

I don't know about that. I've worked with both and will take ARRI any day of the week. It's just simply the better-looking image. As far as VFX, that's not universally true. All sorts of cameras are used for VFX, even when the prime camera might be something else. Where RED is used for VFX, the REDCODE RAW files are usually first transcoded to something else, like image sequence files, so that the color science is properly managed throughout the pipeline.

As far as Netflix/Amazon, that's only because they request true-4K sensor acquisition, which also means an FS7 is acceptable over an Alexa, regardless of how the image actually looks. There's more that goes into this than just a raw pixel count. Bayer-pattern sensors, which are largely what everyone uses, make it very tricky to really make accurate claims on resolution just by pixel numbers. If you go by equivalencies, the older GVG Viper camera, which generated a 1920x1080 image, was a 6K camera, because it used 3 full-resolution 1080p CCDs for image pick-up.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 3:35:01 pm

PS: A friend reminded me of this demo:

http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/

Also, here are some old blog posts of mine and image comparisons I've done related to higher resolutions:

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/resolution-purists-and-the-re...

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/4k-is-kinda-meh/

If you are serious about working in the 8K world (not that H.265 BS, but with real, high-quality files), it's time to dump your Macs and go over to the dark side ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 4:44:10 pm

Would you take the challenge to spot arri footage against red with the new IPP2 colour science? We've got both red and arri and with blind tests it's hard. Very hard. Some of the in camera LUTs for in camera processing bring prores images that are jaw dropping.

I wouldn't say one is better than the other, just has subtle differences. Arri is gorgeous for skin tones - the new blade runner looks absolutely incredible too. VFX work is, in the U.K. at least, more red based, along with most that has been shot in 3D or VR. Majority of marvel or comic book films tend to be too.

The major difference is the versatility and resolution, coupled with more fps. If the argument goes that resolution doesn't matter as much and the colours and quality of pixels are more important,, why would arri bother with the 65.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 6:44:00 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Would you take the challenge to spot arri footage against red with the new IPP2 colour science?"

No, because there are too many variables. A lot of it depends on the specific shot. You can have some images where both look pretty equal, whereas on others they look drastically different. I look at it from a grading standpoint and more often than not, I am happier with Alexa footage. That being said, I've posted (edit, finish, and grade) two indie features and one short that were shot with REDs. They all looked good.

But, how does this factor with 8K?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 6:19:29 pm

Just point out that “corporate video” today can go well beyond standard TV and Theatrical in terms of production sophistication and scope.

Exhibit A for me was the show at ComiCon I saw some months back.



I have a dear friend who’s a huge Dr. Who fan, so since it was her first ComiCon, I joined her to snag coveted Hall H seats early.

Before that morning, I didn’t have the TV show Supernatural in my radar at all - it apparently has been incredibly popular with teen and post teen young women for a decade.

Point is, this was essentially a one-off “corporate video” presentation by Warner Brothers to promote their property.

Not only was the projection and staging equal to anything I’ve seen before (outside, maybe Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon show I saw in the 1970s when this level of WOW was completely and utterly unexpected!) - I understand the car that the main characters drive in is a “character” in the show - as is the pop music they play on its Radio - so of course after the show opening smoke cleared - there was Kansas, live on stage, to launch into “Dust in the Wind.” providing sync sound to their “corporate video” on steroids.

Basically, today, thinking what appears in a local cinema - or on your TV - or anywhere else represents a “superior level” of the production arts - is an increasingly suspect position to hold, IMO.

We are ALL now in the same game.

That “Event Video” practitioner servicing the upper end is probably shooting RED and doing the same “cinematic grading” you are.

That Hall H show was the size of 5 full size movie screens easily.

Somewhere there’s a “Promotion” going on today that has a budget that likely dwarfs any of our current projects.

These tools are no longer the exclusive province of one “Class” of producer.

Everybody’s using them for everything. Across all industries and enterprise types.

All that matters is the budget.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 6:33:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "Everybody’s using them for everything. Across all industries and enterprise types.
All that matters is the budget."


I would certainly agree with that. I've done quite a lot of video support for elaborate corporate events. The hardware used and presentation technology deployed is more than you see in any broadcast environment, including at the network level. Not to mention the extensive production involved leading up to the event, in order to produce the content presented on stage.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 6:54:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "That Hall H show was the size of 5 full size movie screens easily. Somewhere there’s a “Promotion” going on today that has a budget that likely dwarfs any of our current projects. These tools are no longer the exclusive province of one “Class” of producer. Everybody’s using them for everything. Across all industries and enterprise types."

[Oliver Peters] "I would certainly agree with that. I've done quite a lot of video support for elaborate corporate events. The hardware used and presentation technology deployed is more than you see in any broadcast environment, including at the network level. Not to mention the extensive production involved leading up to the event, in order to produce the content presented on stage."

This is exactly what we do at Keen Live. These productions are very demanding, both technically and creatively.

Resolution matters a lot to us. 4K or 8K may not matter on a 70" display in your living room, but every pixel counts when they're spread over a 200' piece of scenery.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 8:05:58 pm

This - 100 times this. Video walls for trade shows and multi projection screens have been bread and butter for us and high resolution footage looks incredible when you can maintain quality all the way from concept to delivery.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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greg janza
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 8:25:34 pm

And that's what makes the Yedlin experiment so fascinating. Unless I'm misunderstanding his results, Yedlin proves without any doubt that there's no way for the human eye to detect a difference in resolution quality at a certain point and that other factors that are non-resolution dependent have a much greater affect on the viewing experience. And that theory would hold true even if you scale up the screen from a television monitor to full on theatrical projection.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Walter Soyka
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 9:00:07 pm

[greg janza] "And that's what makes the Yedlin experiment so fascinating. Unless I'm misunderstanding his results, Yedlin proves without any doubt that there's no way for the human eye to detect a difference in resolution quality at a certain point and that other factors that are non-resolution dependent have a much greater affect on the viewing experience. And that theory would hold true even if you scale up the screen from a television monitor to full on theatrical projection."

There's an ideal viewing distance that goes along with the size of the screen. Think about resolution in terms of pixels per degrees of FOV, not just pixels or pixels per foot. If you're closer than the ideal viewing distance, the human eye can resolve more detail than the screen can show, and the image is noticeably softened.

Unfortunately, the people who sign the checks usually sit in the front row, while the best seats in the house are sometimes as far as halfway back.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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greg janza
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 9:16:22 pm
Last Edited By greg janza on Oct 9, 2017 at 9:18:17 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Unfortunately, the people who sign the checks usually sit in the front row, while the best seats in the house are sometimes as far as halfway back.
"


That might be true but Yedlin also does a good job of showing that imagery isn't necessarily getting any bigger on our retinas as we scale up in screen projection size.




so again the notion that there's an actual need for higher resolution material is simply a marketing ploy.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Walter Soyka
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 9:28:38 pm

[greg janza] "so again the notion that there's an actual need for higher resolution material is simply a marketing ploy with no real world need."

Look at the "ratio of screen width to distance." We have audience sitting 30' from a 200' screen. Very different from normal viewing conditions.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 10:55:31 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Look at the "ratio of screen width to distance." We have audience sitting 30' from a 200' screen. Very different from normal viewing conditions."

With all due respect, though, these are one-off, special venue situations. I don't think you can or should extrapolate those needs to the industry at large. Remember, too, that much of the tech industry pushing for higher resolution is also pushing for higher frame rates. Another (if not more) contentious issue.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 11:35:45 pm

[Oliver Peters] "With all due respect, though, these are one-off, special venue situations. I don't think you can or should extrapolate those needs to the industry at large. Remember, too, that much of the tech industry pushing for higher resolution is also pushing for higher frame rates. Another (if not more) contentious issue."

For sure! I'm just happy to see higher-resolution happen because it suits my work so well. As you might imagine, I'm also a fan of HFR, no matter how many people hated The Hobbit. It's very important for immersion.

Speaking of immersion, high-res, HFR video is important for 360. When you're projecting a video onto a sphere, those extra pixels make a difference.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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greg janza
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 12:17:05 am

[Walter Soyka] "I'm also a fan of HFR, no matter how many people hated The Hobbit. It's very important for immersion."

The funny thing about that to me, is that to my eye it creates just the opposite effect. I hate everything about HFR for exactly the immersive reason because I can't immerse myself into a film shot with HFR. The technical aspects of that format are constantly taking me out of the viewing experience and calling attention to my eye.

But HFR obviously affects everyone differently.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Walter Soyka
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 12:55:15 am

[greg janza] "I hate everything about HFR for exactly the immersive reason because I can't immerse myself into a film shot with HFR. The technical aspects of that format are constantly taking me out of the viewing experience and calling attention to my eye. But HFR obviously affects everyone differently."

My use case is mixing media with real world; cinema is entirely different and I understand why so many reject HFR.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 4:20:05 pm

[greg janza] "I hate everything about HFR for exactly the immersive reason because I can't immerse myself into a film shot with HFR. "

Do you have the same experience with, say, watching a documentary that's HFR or playing video games* (which typically aim for at least 60fps)? I think when we (myself included) sit down to watch a movie we are subconsciously expecting a certain aesthetic based on prior experience if parts of that aesthetic are missing then it doesn't 'feel' like a movie to us. For non-narrative, live action applications I don't HFR stirs the same negative reaction.


*Yes, I know animation/rendered GFX have a separate set of motion issues compared to filming live action.


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greg janza
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 4:49:00 pm

Andrew, I agree that it's probably a result of subconsciously clashing with a preconceived idea of what a film should look like.

Everyone is different in their reactions but for me I have a negative reaction to any visuals that are shot like "reality." I personally hate the look of programming that's shot at the frame rates 29.97 or 59.94. My mind processes that look as flat and boring.

Most of the projects I work on are shot 23.976 and to my eye that's the ideal visual aesthetic.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Claude Lyneis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 13, 2017 at 6:34:38 pm

Shot like reality has a lot with how lighting is done, so I wonder if the difference you see is 24 vs 30 fps or the lighting.


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Shawn Miller
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 13, 2017 at 6:53:18 pm

[Claude Lyneis] "Shot like reality has a lot with how lighting is done, so I wonder if the difference you see is 24 vs 30 fps or the lighting."

Not to speak for Greg, but I agree with him. HFR just has a different look - less motion blur, it's brighter, has smoother motion and hotter highlights. I think that's why so many people hated the look of The Hobbit in 48p - makeup, costumes, props and VFX looked more realistic... in a bad way, it looked like actors wearing makeup and costumes on a set. That's why I do VFX in 24p and motion graphics in 30p, two different aesthetics that work best under different circumstances (IMO).

Shawn



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Bill Davis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 9:19:29 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Oct 9, 2017 at 9:41:03 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Unfortunately, the people who sign the checks usually sit in the front row, while the best seats in the house are sometimes as far as halfway back."

My original posted shot was taken with a 360 degree camera held over my head at the show.

Here’s a better look at the show from a panorama shot I took. (This is for artistic critique featuring a tiny shot out if a long presentation with no financial motive, so I feel Titie 17 “fair use” is defensible - but if WB calls, by all means, take it down.)



(Note the camera op for scale)

Those 5 screens basically covered an almost 180 field of view. (The blown out center screen is the stage area where Kansas was playing.)

Walter is totally correct in that anyone in the first 50 rows only got a fraction of the experience unless they turned themself into a human swivel/bobble head during the show.

And unlike most “super-super wise screen” presentations - all the screens had unique (although completely coordinated) content being displayed. They could virtually drive “Baby” - the car character around the walls at will - or show unique composites of characters in different quadrants.

This 10 minute “intro video” (introducing the show stars before their on-stage interviews for all the fans) - clearly took $$$$$$ to produce and show.

As befits a major media corporate cash cow of 10+ years duration.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 9:22:09 pm

The chase for more resolution and scale isn't a new thing - 35mm equates to around 6K, and any director wanting to make a picture that looks good when projected wants that resolution. Anything shot on 65mm looks awesome, that is close to 12k.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 10:25:52 pm

[Tom Sefton] "35mm equates to around 6K"

Actually that estimate is highly debatable. Furthermore, when we discuss release prints (film) in theaters, the consensus of actual resolution is around 1K to 2K. Remember that 6K is not resolution, it's a horizontal pixel dimension. Actual resolution is something completely different.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 10:40:25 pm

You are missing my point. Of course the 6K figure relates to horizontal resolution but if a 35mm print is scanned the resulting image at a similar density would be around 6K in horizontal resolution.

My point is that if the 1 or 2k digital print has always been good enough then why would anyone ever film at higher than that if the human eye can't see a difference in quality in the projected print.

In film terms, projectors could and still can, project a 35mm print. Many directors still want to use this format and even higher (Nolan with Dunkirk, Tarantino with hateful eight). The quest for bigger and more in terms of film, went from 8mm to 65mm and is doing the same in digital.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Michael Gissing
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 11:01:34 pm

[Tom Sefton] "The quest for bigger and more in terms of film, went from 8mm to 65mm and is doing the same in digital."

The difference is the step up in film from 35 to 65mm is vastly more expensive. That's another reason why it is inevitable with digital acquisition. Shotting 8k is affordable and technically achievable largely using the same facilities and post equipment that currently do 4k and HD. I potentially can do 8k now with my computer setup using proxy workflows and switching to 8k for final renders if I add one new graphics card to my existing PC.


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 11:55:50 pm

[Tom Sefton] "but if a 35mm print is scanned the resulting image at a similar density would be around 6K in horizontal resolution"

Again, that's not a universally accepted figure. There is plenty of research that comes up with numbers that range from 2K to 6K, depending on grain size and whether you are talking in the absolute or after the frame has been exposed in a motion camera (lower).

[Tom Sefton] "My point is that if the 1 or 2k digital print has always been good enough then why would anyone ever film at higher than that if the human eye can't see a difference in quality in the projected print. "

There are plenty of DPs who don't.

[Tom Sefton] "Many directors still want to use this format and even higher (Nolan with Dunkirk, Tarantino with hateful eight)."

Not the norm.

[Tom Sefton] "and is doing the same in digital."

I don't deny that, but you do get to a point of diminishing returns.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 11:58:38 pm

Honestly, if you really value the ultimate in resolution, never shoot with any compressed format, including any ProRes flavor.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 12:16:10 am

When lucasfilm started their pioneering work in the first steps of computer graphics and digital video, the accepted resolution that they wanted to hit to match a 35mm film print was roughly a minimum of 4000 by 2000 pixels. (Droidmaker is a hell of a book)

35mm film does at the very least equate to more than 2K in horizontal resolution. Although 65mm is in the minority, 35mm has and always will be the standard for film. My point still remains - if 16 or super 16 had been adequate, why did DPs push to 35 and beyond.

The new arri 65 is stunning. The epic monstro is beautiful. Change is good! It keeps everyone busy!

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 1:33:37 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Oct 10, 2017 at 1:40:57 am

[Tom Sefton] "The new arri 65 is stunning. The epic monstro is beautiful. Change is good! It keeps everyone busy!"

OTOH - Disney EPCOT's IllumiNations show Earth Globe video - approx 360 x 128 pixels. Seen by maybe something like 180 million guests (conservative estimate). And yes, I wish I'd had more display resolution to play with! ☺

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IllumiNations:_Reflections_of_Earth













Very hard to capture well on video, BTW. The closest anyone actually is to the globe is 500 ft. So it looks better to the eye in person.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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greg janza
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 5:20:53 pm

[Tom Sefton] "The new arri 65 is stunning. The epic monstro is beautiful. Change is good! It keeps everyone busy!"

I think the whole point of the Yedlin analysis is to show that we've now entered a technological advancement period with regards to resolution in which it can be argued that the advancement serves no real purpose.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 10:25:55 pm

1. Supernatural isn't just for girls, Bill. 😉 All previous seasons are on Netflix so if you are needing a show to check out I strongly recommend it. First couple of seasons are monster-of-the-week/episodic, but later seasons are more serialized (though still with stand alone episodes mixed in).

2. Somewhere (either here, on FB or on my blog) I wrote a post a while back about this being the gilded age of corporate video because barriers to entry in terms of production cost and distribution options have simply evaporated over the last 10-15yrs. You can certainly get 'broadcast quality' on non-broadcast productions. For example, on two of the YouTube live streaming shows I've worked on in the past year (one was a talk show format and the other was live coverage of E3) we used the same crews, cameras, control rooms/trucks that you'd use on a broadcast production even though we were destined for YouTube. Of course now that I think about it we did similar things when I worked at GameTrailers 2009 (2010?).

3. I think calling this live, choreographed event a 'corporate video' and comparing it to watching a movie or TV show is a bit apples to oranges. Comparing it to other live, choreographed events (concerts, award shows, Super Bowl halftime show, theme park shows, Grease: Live on FOX, etc.,) seems more appropriate.


[Walter Soyka] "Resolution matters a lot to us. 4K or 8K may not matter on a 70" display in your living room..."

For final distribution I agree, though for production and post shooting in an higher res than the final distribution format can of course have multiple benefits. On a related note, the new movie "6 Below" which was shot, cut, and finished in 6k for the Barco Escape format (basically three movie screens in a wrap-around format w/11.1 sound) is coming out on Friday. A look at the workflow can be found here, http://vashivisuals.com/6-below-editing-in-6k/


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Michael Gissing
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 10:42:58 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "On a related note, the new movie "6 Below" which was shot, cut, and finished in 6k for the Barco Escape format (basically three movie screens in a wrap-around format w/11.1 sound)"

Last year I worked on a similar concept with that ratio for an installation in a former penitentiary chapel turned into a museum. Everything was done in a 6k timeline then split into three projectors doing the same wrap around by projecting onto the walls of a rectangular room. People in the room are pretty close to the walls and there were so many speakers that I modified the Fairlight's 22.2 surround format. We had speakers on three levels so sound could be placed above, under seats and below in some old cells, plus some specials in the pulpit and old organ. Footage for this was all shot 6k RED as there was a lot of green screen and compositing in AE for this long letterbox.

https://www.roarfilm.com.au/projects/pandemonium/.


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 12:22:02 am

Really cool project! Nice work!

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Shawn Miller
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 11:06:37 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "1. Supernatural isn't just for girls, Bill. 😉 All previous seasons are on Netflix so if you are needing a show to check out I strongly recommend it. First couple of seasons are monster-of-the-week/episodic, but later seasons are more serialized (though still with stand alone episodes mixed in)."

+1 for Supernatural, my wife and I have been fans of the show from season 1. It's campy, heartfelt and awesome. ☺

Shawn



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Andrew Kimery
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 12:17:01 am

[Shawn Miller] "+1 for Supernatural, my wife and I have been fans of the show from season 1. It's campy, heartfelt and awesome. ☺"

It's just a fun show. Some seasons were kinda... rough, but overall it's been a surprisingly good ride considering all the years that it's been on.


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Bill Davis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 9:08:06 am

[Andrew Kimery] "1. Supernatural isn't just for girls, Bill. 😉 "

Didn't mean to diss Supernatural it at all. I spent hours surrounded by it's dedicated fans - and I have to say I really enjoyed the time spent with them. ComiCon tends to be it's own "tribal" thing - and at least around us, the Supernatural tribe was significantly female and mostly women under 25 who had started with the show when they were younger - but there were CERTAINLY older women and plenty of men present who are big fans of the show as well.

That said, when the two young male stars hit the stage - the it felt a bit like the Beatles in 1963 in the Ed Sulivan Theater. They definitely have a LOYAL fan base.

And Warner Brothers did them all proud with a MASSIVE presentation.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 4:02:10 pm

[Bill Davis] "That said, when the two young male stars hit the stage - the it felt a bit like the Beatles in 1963 in the Ed Sulivan Theater."

That I could totally see happening. From what I've heard the show is so popular in Germany that even the actors with smaller, recurring roles get mobbed at public appearances too.


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Bill Davis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 6:35:01 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "That I could totally see happening. From what I've heard the show is so popular in Germany that even the actors with smaller, recurring roles get mobbed at public appearances too."

Wouldn't you just LOVE to see the stats on what WB makes on the most successful of their movies, verses what they rake in over the same period on something like this?

It's definitely a very different global media landscape out there today.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 7:07:04 pm

[Bill Davis] "Wouldn't you just LOVE to see the stats on what WB makes on the most successful of their movies, verses what they rake in over the same period on something like this?

It's definitely a very different global media landscape out there today."


I don't know how it easy it would be to find breakdowns like that, but with franchises like Harry Potter and The Dark Knight the TV side of the WB certainly has stiff competition. Speaking of the global media landscape, most Hollywood films seem to earn 1/2-2/3 of their total revenue overseas. Even a crap-fest like Suicide Squad brought in nearly $750 mil worldwide (43% of that from the US).


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Bill Davis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 7:28:23 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Speaking of the global media landscape, most Hollywood films seem to earn 1/2-2/3 of their total revenue overseas. Even a crap-fest like Suicide Squad brought in nearly $750 mil worldwide (43% of that from the US).
"


Was going to make a point about FCP X adoption and the globalization of the market... but won't.

😉

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 7:35:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "Was going to make a point about FCP X adoption and the globalization of the market... but won't.

😉
"


When you have time to create that point I'd love to hear it.


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Alan Okey
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 8, 2017 at 6:49:58 pm

With all of the breathless hype about 4K and 8K, it’s important to separate fact from fiction, real-world applications from marketing. This is a must-see presentation on resolution for anyone working in the industry today:

http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/


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greg janza
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 1:48:35 am
Last Edited By greg janza on Oct 9, 2017 at 2:02:23 am

Oliver and Alan, thanks for posting the Yedlin videos. These two videos absolutely should be mandatory viewing for anyone working in the industry today.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Michael Gissing
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 5:42:04 am

The cycle from "why HD?" to "why 4k?" to "why 8k?" is an example of the reduction in tech cycles that is proportional to the cycles of CPU, GPU and drive speed & size developments. And cost of course. So the question is self answering. We always seem to move to the next resolution to make sure there is a difference between higher end production and the rest. When the iPhone/ Hydrogen/ Samsung phone in 2020 moves to 8k HDR we will be already asking "why 16k?"

It's a moot point for me. It's just a matter of when. I see no reason to question why as that cycle is inevitable. I see a potential limitation with lenses but its not just about pixels and the 8k weapon from RED uses a super 35 sensor with a very large range of suitable lenses. Besides we will be moving to multiple lenses eventually.

We already have a glimpse of that next trend with the Lytro type pf capture with much higher pixel resolution, multiple lenses/ streams to be able to chose framing and frame rates in post without penalty. Within a generation we might be saying, how did we ever manage with 16k 32 bit ultra HDR @ 120 fps.


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greg janza
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 6:16:54 am

[Michael Gissing] "It's a moot point for me. It's just a matter of when."

Did you watch the Yedlin videos?

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Michael Gissing
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 6:35:38 am

[Greg Janza]"Did you watch the Yedlin videos?"

Yes I saw them a while back. I've read similar arguments in lots of Red Shark editorials too. I also understand the role of things like lenses, camera filters, particulate matter in the air etc and being a grader, using post tools. Noise is an old trick for increasing perceptual sharpness for example.

The pixel juggernaut is rolling on because neither Red nor NHK care about those things. They will supply demand. Netflix's newest deliverables specs are similarly ridiculous as the Alexa is considered sub par but preferred by cinematographers. I get the frustration of cinematographers. I am now using my Ursa Mini 4.6 to take stills from a 60 fps video stream and sold my Canon 5dMK2 because I prefer the look of the Ursa @ 4:1 compressed RAW to the 5D at near 6k and RAW. Partly because I prefer to grade in Resolve but also because it is a fantastic way to get the killer moment in action and the great look of that camera.

So when studios or post pipelines demand 8k+ they will get it and the camera manufacturers are already gearing up to supply it. It doesn't have to make absolute sense in perceptual terms. Ultimately the 8k cameras will look better and that may not be about pixel count, but they will have better color science, lower noise and greater dynamic range. They will also have higher pixel counts.


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Bill Davis
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 5:03:55 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So what's the fascination with 8K anyway? "

Without 8k as a transitional phase, can’t get to the point where you justify all that CSI dialog... “Zoom in on his eyeball - now enhance - enhance - enhance?”
🤔

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 9, 2017 at 10:58:35 pm

That used to be total rubbish....until lytro....!

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 11, 2017 at 1:04:13 pm

Speaking of VR:

https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/10/nokia-pulls-out-of-ozo-vr-hardware-lays-o...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 12, 2017 at 7:41:53 pm

Yeah I thought that might happen. The OZO gives fantastically average image quality and needs the use of the proprietary software to deliver actual VR rather than 360. My money is on blackmagic to deliver a rig with some cameras and a sync box that does it all in the next year.

Great work on the Epcot project Oliver. I can remember watching it for the first time in 1999 and being captivated.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 12, 2017 at 7:59:58 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Great work on the Epcot project Oliver. I can remember watching it for the first time in 1999 and being captivated."

Thanks. A year of my life right there! At the time, we had asked to at least double the horizontal and vertical pixel resolution. The engineers told us don't go there. It's a square factor for everything - weight on the barge, time to fabricate the displays, labor to hand-wire the LED blocks, cost, etc. We were told the closest anyone would see it would be 500 feet away - therefore "good enough". So our test "platform" was the Australia continent panel, which is more or less 40x40 pixels. That's effectively a desktop icon. We figured that if you could make out an image on that from 500 feet, then the image was useable. The other continental masses were bigger palettes. So, a lot of late-night testing with stock footage in the backlot at the Magic Kingdom.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 12, 2017 at 8:03:29 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Thanks. A year of my life right there! At the time, we had asked to at least double the horizontal and vertical pixel resolution. The engineers told us don't go there. It's a square factor for everything - weight on the barge, time to fabricate the displays, labor to hand-wire the LED blocks, cost, etc. We were told the closest anyone would see it would be 500 feet away - therefore "good enough". So our test "platform" was the Australia continent panel, which is more or less 40x40 pixels. That's effectively a desktop icon. We figured that if you could make out an image on that from 500 feet, then the image was useable. The other continental masses were bigger palettes. So, a lot of late-night testing with stock footage in the backlot at the Magic Kingdom."

Yes, great job, seen the show a few times and I've always been impressed!


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 12, 2017 at 11:55:13 pm

[Steve Connor] "Yes, great job, seen the show a few times and I've always been impressed!"

Thanks. We worked with a great creative team. Don Dorsey was the show director. Don created the Main Street Electrical Parade, too. Gavin Greenaway did the musical score. He's a colleague of Hans Zimmer's and conducts his film scores for features. The recording was done at Abbey Road Studios. I did all the final compositing on Media Composer ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 13, 2017 at 12:23:00 am

[Oliver Peters] "I did all the final compositing on Media Composer ☺"

Wow.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 13, 2017 at 1:35:01 am

[Walter Soyka] "Wow."

Thanks. In fairness, there were a few shots done in 3DS Max, Avid Illusion (remember that?), and a linear bay by other team members. But I also had a few areas that were over 50 deep layers in MC. Of course, each continental mass was a nest (total of 5) on its own track and final compositing of all elements was done in MC. Glorious AVR-77!

The actual show files are (not sure if this is still the case) 7 uncompressed AVI files that run back-to-back. This was launched in 1999 and there was custom player software that ran the video from the barge. The show control room fired off everything at the beginning - fireworks, flames, fountains, lasers, sound, and video - and it runs from there. The video essentially free-runs after it's triggered. We were always worried about maintaining sync, but somehow that's worked for nearly 2 decades. The PC running the video was an early Pentium III (IIRC) so the files had to be uncompressed. Any compression was enough to tax the processors enough to affect sync.

The video display card in the barge PC is the basis for what is seen on the LED screens. The image (modified map of the earth) is locked into a certain position on the computer screen and then there's mapping software to route the screen's pixels to specific LED blocks.

The coolest part of the show, though, will never be seen by the public. Before the barges can be sent back to the dock, all remaining propane must be vented out of the flame barge. This is done in one huge fireball after park closing, as they fire off all 34 (?) flumes at the same time!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 13, 2017 at 11:52:13 am

[Oliver Peters] "The coolest part of the show, though, will never be seen by the public. Before the barges can be sent back to the dock, all remaining propane must be vented out of the flame barge. This is done in one huge fireball after park closing, as they fire off all 34 (?) flumes at the same time!"

I was there in February staying at the Caribbean Beach which is across the way from EPCOT and I think I saw this happening a couple of times late at night !


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Oliver Peters
Re: RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple?
on Oct 13, 2017 at 4:49:49 pm

[Steve Connor] "I was there in February staying at the Caribbean Beach which is across the way from EPCOT and I think I saw this happening a couple of times late at night !"

Cool!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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