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OT: How do you present work-in-progress?

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Walter Soyka
OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 26, 2017 at 11:01:18 am

A rather broad question, but how do you present your WIPs to clients or stakeholders?

What do you hope to get out of a review? What level of roughness or polish do you aim to provide early on? How much does color/mix affect your WIPs? What process or guidelines do you put around review? What tools do you use?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Herb Sevush
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 26, 2017 at 12:19:20 pm

[Walter Soyka] " how do you present your WIPs to clients or stakeholders? "

I've been using Kollaborate for the last few years and find it fits my needs, for all level of clients, in terms of quality of image, ease of use for clients, and notating & exporting notes in a useful manor.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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greg janza
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 26, 2017 at 12:55:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "how do you present your WIPs to clients or stakeholders?"

I use frame.io and it's made the wip process much easier.



[Walter Soyka] "What do you hope to get out of a review? "

Feedback that either confirms or denies that I'm on the right track with the overall structure of the piece.



[Walter Soyka] "What level of roughness or polish do you aim to provide early on?"

I try to polish as much as possible before showing since time has proven again and again that many clients just can't see past the mistakes.



[Walter Soyka] "How much does color/mix affect your WIPs? "

With LUT's the color process is pretty simple and then i do a rough mix in premiere to make even the early versions easy to listen to.



[Walter Soyka] "What process or guidelines do you put around review?"

No guidelines. I simply encourage clients to make all comments on the frame.io website.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 26, 2017 at 5:29:24 pm

Great question.

The client communication pipeline has changed as much as any other aspect of my practice over the past 10 years.

Lots of factors in play...

My "first drafts" now look very much like my finished work used to.

In my FCP X workflow, my Browser footage universally gets a fast "base grade" for a pleasing, viewable watching experience. And that flows into every subsequent project.

So visably "unpolished" quality video is gone now.

For some clients, that's nothing but excellent. For others, I find myself getting in the weeds of minuscule "pick at it for perfection" discussions WAY too early in the process. (That "should we use a comma or semi-colon here" discussion can seriously wait, folks - it's just a draft!) or worse, the comp gets posted around the company for review - and somebody cluelessly slaps it in a deck and USES it!

Yikes.

I mostly use Frame.io and LOVE it.

It really helps to keep the first line review pool contained, since the early access group isn't just going to a "common space" like a YouTube or Vimeo.

But even faster, easier feedback notes linked to the frames in discussion - is not always the same as BETTER feedback. And sadly, the old system where only internal players conditioned to viewing work in progress - got work in progress - Is kinda over. Now EVERYONE wants to weigh in on the video.

So if you let ANY draft file out "into the wild" and people treat it like any other attachable video. And it's GONE.

I find I tend to use a LOT of screen overlays these days at the early stages of distributing work for review to insure stakeholders don't mistake drafts for finals.

Just some thoughts.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 26, 2017 at 9:39:32 pm

We've been using Screenlight.tv and it's served its purpose. I also put links on our server and send simple links for review. They are pretty far along unless I specify it is just for review.

Rich

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Kevin Rag
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 2:10:50 am

+1 for screenlight.tv
It's pretty simple for clients to use and very reasonably priced. Was using the free version of frame.io before. When I wanted to upgrade, screenlight seemed to give best bang for the buck. Been using it for over a month now:)

K


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Bret Williams
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 2:16:03 am

We’ve literally been putting “work in progress” in the upper corner of all drafts.

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCPX Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Herb Sevush
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 11:58:13 am

[Bill Davis] "In my FCP X workflow, my Browser footage universally gets a fast "base grade" for a pleasing, viewable watching experience. And that flows into every subsequent project.
"


This is a digression but I find this statement to be an interesting result of the, fairly recent, push for shooting log and raw. The idea that you needed to apply color correction to video footage to get a "pleasing, viewable watching experience" is fairly recent, and I'm not all that sure the benefits outweigh the effort. I hire a DP precisely because they know how to get a "pleasing" image in 709, no grading necessary. If I want to add some post color pizzaz I can, but for the most part the only thing all this LUTing around is getting me is some extra details in my highlights, which is what a DP is paid to control in the first place. I understand going to this extreme for a feature or a commercial, where post expense and effort are a minor part of the picture, but for most broadcast or corporate work, I don't get it.

OK, the grumpy old man has said his piece, move on.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 4:07:53 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 27, 2017 at 4:19:26 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I understand going to this extreme for a feature or a commercial, where post expense and effort are a minor part of the picture, but for most broadcast or corporate work, I don't get it."

Obviously if you have "end to end" production control - you shouldn't have to mess with very much "base grade" stuff, if any.

But when you're receiving and working on footage from varied sources, it's s very different story.

Right now, I'm working on a set of commercials featuring interview footage of customers shot in three batches - some in 2015, some in 2016, and some in 2017.

So multiple years, multiple days, multiple camera types, multiple setups.

It doesn't need a ton of tweaking, because it was all shot very competently, but even the matched C-500s vary from day to day - and definitely year to year.

Having a system directly "plumbed in" to FCP X that lets me correct and match different source cameras in pre- and then have those corrections flow into all the subsequent work becomes a "fix it once - then forget about it" thing that I love.

I've always said that X seems to me to be built on a conceptual foundation of cascading metadata flow. If you take the time to improve something upstream via metadata - tag a set of frames, apply a base grade, assign an audio role - whatever - that fix essentially flows through everything subsequently, And arrives in all your exports (comp, working and potentially even final) - already improved.

X leverages preparation better than anything else I've ever used. Not just prep of editorial organization, but actual prep of the digital stream.

As much as "fix it in post" was a terrible concept - "fix it in pre" is kinda glorious.

Massive overall timesaver, IME.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 4:50:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "Having a system directly "plumbed in" to FCP X that lets me correct and match different source cameras in pre- and then have those corrections flow into all the subsequent work becomes a "fix it once - then forget about it" thing that I love... X leverages preparation better than anything else I've ever used. Not just prep of editorial organization, but actual prep of the digital stream."

Source-side correction exists across all four "A" NLEs. The "B" NLE has somewhat similar functionality, too, via groups.

(Thunderdome disclaimer: the letters are for company names and do not imply ranking!)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:01:37 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Source-side correction exists across all four "A" NLEs. The "B" NLE has somewhat similar functionality, too, via groups."

I'm sure they do.

Stripiing timecode onto analog tapes was also a form of "source side correction" - so I know the concept has been around forever.

I've watched more and more of the Apple style of this showing up in the Adobe tools over the past six years.

And not surprised B is writing them into Resolve.

It's been quite nice to have such robust ones for so long in X.

Which is WHY I enjoy them so much.

In some cases, enhanced source side preparation was something I could use instantly. In other cases (range based keyword tagging a prime example among others) it's taken my years to evolve an efficient strategy for applying them to the many conditional uses I seem to face more and more.

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:40:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "Having a system directly "plumbed in" to FCP X that lets me correct and match different source cameras in pre- and then have those corrections flow into all the subsequent work becomes a "fix it once - then forget about it" thing that I love. "

Maybe there are other examples that you didn't mention, but in the above example it sounds like you made adjustments to the clips prior to editing them into a timeline and that's something that's been doable in NLEs for a long time. Or am I misunderstanding the example you gave?


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:49:06 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:51:29 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe there are other examples that you didn't mention, but in the above example it sounds like you made adjustments to the clips prior to editing them into a timeline and that's something that's been doable in NLEs for a long time. Or am I misunderstanding the example you gave?"

Let me be clearer.

Adjusting the color of my clips - means that when I TAG them for re-call, that TAGGED range arrives with that correction. The correction is "general" to all NLEs - but how it integrates WITH range-based tagging to enhance the FCP X workflow is specific.

I both "correct" AND "trim" far less in the final - because I've often done BOTH simultaneously upstream.

And that saves me time.

Does that help?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:52:43 pm

[Bill Davis] "The correction is "general" to all NLEs - but how it integrates WITH range-based tagging to enhance the FCP X workflow is specific."

I don't think that's any different than attaching a LUT to a clip at the master clip level in Premiere so that any and all usage of that clip will always have the LUT attached.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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andy patterson
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 2, 2017 at 5:40:30 am

[greg janza] "[Bill Davis] "The correction is "general" to all NLEs - but how it integrates WITH range-based tagging to enhance the FCP X workflow is specific."

I don't think that's any different than attaching a LUT to a clip at the master clip level in Premiere so that any and all usage of that clip will always have the LUT attached."




Even the subclips in Premiere Pro will have the master clip effect applied.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 2, 2017 at 2:34:22 am

[Bill Davis] "Does that help?"

Yes, between you post and some others I have a better idea. Thank you.


-Andrew


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Eric Santiago
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 6:44:07 pm

[Herb Sevush] " I hire a DP precisely because they know how to get a "pleasing" image in 709, no grading necessary. "

As a new Colorist (a few years in ) I stood by the DPs work and fought with Directors (who usually wrote and bankrolled the feature) on this matter.
I held ground when they wanted to do some complete color changes when it didn't make any sense whatsoever.
I also avoid the LUTdites :)


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Charlie Austin
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 26, 2017 at 11:30:19 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Sep 26, 2017 at 11:33:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "A rather broad question, but how do you present your WIPs to clients or stakeholders?
"


mini DV Tapes via messenger... Oh, wait, we stopped doing that a just few years ago. Hollywood baby!

Currently we use studio-security approved things like WireDrive, Aspera etc. Or, we use a fiber network to the studios for live playback/editing and they can capture if needed. If it's live it's 1080, uploaded stuff is 1080 or 720 mp4's. Regardless of the source NLE it's mixed well and has no crappy temp GFX. As we do mostly offline, the pix are watermarked anyway, but when we are "finishing" it all needs to look... final.

Would love to use Frame I/O but... Hollywood. It's hard to turn the Titanic

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 2:30:14 am

[Charlie Austin] "Would love to use Frame I/O but... Hollywood. It's hard to turn the Titanic"

This probably goes back more to your previous point about security being paramount (no pun intended) rather than just being stubborn. Back in the day when I worked as a vault manager all of our assets from studios (which of course had code names) were kept inside of a locked safe inside of a locked room in the back of our locked media vault which was inside our locked offices (which took up the whole floor).

Even then that wasn't enough. On one project we had to send all the assets back at the end of the day and then the studio would send them to us again each morning. Crazy paranoid.


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Charlie Austin
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:14:10 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Crazy paranoid."

Yeah, that is the real situation, and it's not like they haven't got reasons to be that way. Some smaller clients will use "consumer grade" sites, but the biggies... no way. We get audited regularly, and some have former feds on their security teams. It's... serious. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 4:52:36 pm

It sounds like most folks are putting a close-to-final level of polish on WIPs. Do you find this leads to a lot of re-work? Is there any work you actually save for that mythical state of Picture Lock?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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greg janza
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:08:19 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Do you find this leads to a lot of re-work?"

the short answer, no. I do a fair amount of work that eventually goes to a colorist for the finishing so my color work is really just to give the client an idea of how it's going to look in the end. But even for the pieces that I do the final color work, all of the prep LUT work helps make the final color pass much easier.

Outside of having to go back into Audition to re-dump out mixes I don't think creating more finished rough and fine cuts is adding much additional workload to us editors.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:18:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Do you find this leads to a lot of re-work?"

Yes, but as a previous poster said, it's a necessarily evil due to the client/producer/director/network being inexperienced, insecure, having trust issues, lacking the prerequisite amount of creativity to properly do their job, etc.,. Not exaggerating, on some past projects (unscripted work) I've thrown out 3-4 weeks of work because I was told the higher-ups won't 'get it' unless it's covered in b-roll and there's music underneath. Such a frustrating and colossal waste of time... but that's the way the cookie crumbles these days.

The rare times I work with collaborators that can actually understand the rough cut process I'm nearly brought to tears.


[Walter Soyka] "Is there any work you actually save for that mythical state of Picture Lock?"

For me it's just tweaking/fine tuning things since all the elements are already in the cut.


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greg janza
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:30:15 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "on some past projects (unscripted work) I've thrown out 3-4 weeks of work because I was told the higher-ups won't 'get it' unless it's covered in b-roll and there's music underneath. Such a frustrating and colossal waste of time... but that's the way the cookie crumbles these days."

If I've learned anything in 20 plus years of editing it's that 99% of clients have absolutely no ability to envision what the final product will look like.

I guess an analogy is the huge success of home staging companies for real estate sales. Without seeing what's possible, most prospective home buyers shy away.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Herb Sevush
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:37:35 pm

[greg janza] "If I've learned anything in 20 plus years of editing it's that 99% of clients have absolutely no ability to envision what the final product will look like. "

The 4th law of thermodynamics.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 6:07:12 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The rare times I work with collaborators that can actually understand the rough cut process I'm nearly brought to tears.
"


For me those times are VERY rare!


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 5:39:14 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 27, 2017 at 6:17:17 pm

[Walter Soyka] "It sounds like most folks are putting a close-to-final level of polish on WIPs. Do you find this leads to a lot of re-work? Is there any work you actually save for that mythical state of Picture Lock?"

Using X has very much changed my approach to the entire video production process.

I've become much more "front loaded" in creating my videos. When I have time - I typically spend a bunch more of it in prep than I ever did before.

I really enjoy that - since it seem far more "strategic" than my prep used to. The nature of the project, determines the nature of the preparation I have to do. But if I do it well - what I'll call my "asset polish" is largely done - so I don't have to waste as much time on polishing assets in the edit. I expect all my import assets to be "good" already when they arrive. That saves me time.

In the context of this specific discussion, it also now seems far, far EASIER for me to version and revise work.
So "polish" isn't something I do as much to the many client versions I'm typically required to spit out.
The "asset polish" was already done upstream.

Timeline polish has also changed for me a good bit.
Because of the magnetic timeline. I tend to build my X timeline a good bit more on a Y and Z axis as the traditional X axis.

Let me explain that.

If X is your time flow downstream - think of the Y axis as my vertical build. Magnetism makes those Y constructions persistent - so once I build a vertical stack - I can move it so easily that versioning seems to me to have less friction. A snapshot, then move a block, trim a block, re-time the elements of the block - all easy and quick.

The Z axis is my Auditions. more than one optional candidates to fill a position in my program.
Because of how X works - "depth" choices on my storyline are possible. So I get to play with multiple clip options in a single storyline.

All this means I feel really free and efficient in versioning and optional edits - so when nearing the "end game" of presentation to clients. I can "play" more and feel like I'm "working" less.

Just me, I'm sure.

And I totally agree with "picture lock" needing to be in quotes. I'm not actually sure what "picture lock" is anymore. I totally get it for a movie workflow where departments critically need to "Lock" a project so other stakeholders can do their work and know things aren't changing anymore. But nothing I do remotely resembles that. Revisions, versions, alts, and even narration/script changes happen literally up to the moment the CEO or primary stakeholder shows the work. And often AFTER the work is sent out to the troops - changes and corrections and tweaks typically continue.

Preliminary financial estimates get replaced with audited finals. One of the three departments featured in the video want "their" piece recut into a standalone. The last :03 of the commercials need rotating tags against 100 stores...

The new normal.

YMMV.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 27, 2017 at 6:13:18 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Do you find this leads to a lot of re-work? Is there any work you actually save for that mythical state of Picture Lock?"

For the most part I save final color grading and sound repair till I'm sure the sequence I'm working on will be in the final cut. However I often won't know what works without doing some work on a shot - if I need the content from a badly shot clip I won't know if I can use it till i do the work of trying to make it look right. More so with sound - I need a line from someone but there was a crash in the background - if I don't try to eliminate the crash from the track I won't know if the resulting sound is usable.

As far as re-work goes, pretty much anything you do is a step in the right direction, and taking it further, based on feedback, is still quicker than not doing anything at all. You start with a rough mix for the rough cut and then keep improving the mix as you improve the cut.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Claude Lyneis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 2:53:47 am

This is really a timely discussion for me, since I am putting together a piece to be shown at a dinner for an athletic hall of fame. Normally I do film for my own uses. I think a key conclusion of this thread, is make it as clean and watchable before showing it to the client, because the flaws will get their attention, not issues that you need advice on. So for me, no distracting artifacts like a time code running at the bottom. Fine tuning the color and massaging the audio can probably come at the end, but otherwise it should be as complete as possible. Probably saves time in the end and reduces the back and forth between the editor and the client. (I hope).


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Michael Gissing
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 4:33:45 am

On a music video I shot, edited and graded for an interstate client, the grade and image processing like slo mo optical flow or stabilising hand held was very much part of the work so it had to happen at the same time. It affected shot decisions and the whole look was integral to the pacing.

So when we had the final edit 'lock' the grade had already been done. This was possible in Resolve unlike other systems where the final would be output to go into Resolve or Baselight for grade. This is an enormous time saver for this type of work where the final finish can be achieved whilst editing. Being able to render out and upload h264's and then final output of multiple renders from the timeline of DNxHR masters plus Vimeo and Youtube spec deliverables was easy given the ability of Resolve to setup a multiple render queue.

Interesting to me now is that work done on sound will now also translate into final work via the Fairlight page as I transition from the standalone Fairlight. No more AAF, OMF which throws so much work away or doesn't allow pre processing like denoising to be undone when it has been overcooked.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 12:46:18 pm

[Bill Davis] "Adjusting the color of my clips - means that when I TAG them for re-call, that TAGGED range arrives with that correction. The correction is "general" to all NLEs - but how it integrates WITH range-based tagging to enhance the FCP X workflow is specific."

Bill, would you describe a bit more what you are doing here? To my knowledge (and I could be wrong), there is no source source-side correction in X for a browser clip. UNLESS you either open the clip up in its own timeline and do correction there - or - it's a compound clip or multicam clip. The exception would be automatically-applied camera camera LUTs. So I'm curious what you are actually doing.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 1:10:40 pm

+1 But you just replied to Michael, not Bill.

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCPX Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 1:18:27 pm

[Oliver Peters] "To my knowledge (and I could be wrong), there is no source source-side correction in X for a browser clip. UNLESS you either open the clip up in its own timeline and do correction there "

I assumed Bill was using "Open in Timeline" from his description.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 2:20:03 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I assumed Bill was using "Open in Timeline" from his description."

I'm assuming that, too, but hoping there was a better way. "Open in timeline" is a lot more work than the same function used to be in FCP7.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 4:49:47 am

[Oliver Peters] ""Open in timeline" is a lot more work than the same function used to be in FCP7."

How so?

It's 2 clicks. Was it 1 click in 7?


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:39:36 am

Yep, but it's been re-named "Open Clip" in the latest version of X.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tony West
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 3:45:22 pm

[Oliver Peters] "To my knowledge (and I could be wrong), there is no source source-side correction in X for a browser clip."

You just select "open clip" and you can correct that source clip. It's fast and easy.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 5:01:04 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Sep 28, 2017 at 5:05:05 pm

[Tony West] "You just select "open clip""

Right, that's "open in timeline". The terminology changed in the newer version. Unfortunately, when you cut that clip into your sequence, you don't see the clip-based correction within the color board any longer, since it's a separate correction from sequence-based correction.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 9:43:55 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Right, that's "open in timeline". The terminology changed in the newer version. Unfortunately, when you cut that clip into your sequence, you don't see the clip-based correction within the color board any longer, since it's a separate correction from sequence-based correction.
"


And, if you change the color in the Browser clip, it doesn't change the clip(s) on the timeline, and vice versa.


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Michael Gissing
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:16:52 am

[Oliver Peters] "Right, that's "open in timeline". The terminology changed in the newer version. Unfortunately, when you cut that clip into your sequence, you don't see the clip-based correction within the color board any longer, since it's a separate correction from sequence-based correction."

Unsurprisingly Resolve gives you the most options. In the media page after import LUTs can be applied to the clips. this will carry into all sequences. All clip or just a group of clips from a specific camera or shoot can have this LUT applied. Alternatively when clips are in a timeline a grade can be applied to the whole timeline, or just to groups within the timeline. Also individual shots can have their grades copied to multiple clips. Of course all these can be changed or disabled easily.

Start a new timeline and cut material in? Just use ColorTrace to apply grades from another sequence. Or there are a lot of other ways to quickly and easily apply grades that will carry into the final and be fully adjustable. Getting close to a finish is more important than ever, especially with cameras often shooting various flavors of log. The flexibility of Resolve's grade options will encourage editors to jump into Resolve either at the start of a cut or earlier in the edit than the traditional export of a 'locked' cut, just to create better WIP versions for clients, knowing that basic work will carry into the final without a whole start again approach to both picture and sound.


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Tony West
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 4:46:25 am

[Oliver Peters] "Right, that's "open in timeline". The terminology changed in the newer version."

You were using the old terminology of "Timeline" and I corrected it with the new one "Open Clip" For people new to X


[Oliver Peters] " when you cut that clip into your sequence, you don't see the clip-based correction within the color board any longer,"

You just hit open clip again from there and you do see it.


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:59:14 am

[Oliver Peters] "Unfortunately, when you cut that clip into your sequence, you don't see the clip-based correction within the color board any longer, since it's a separate correction from sequence-based correction."

Not quite sure why'd you'd want to. .

Fixing issues to get to "correct" is the goal. Correct lands, and you do your timeline grading from there.

It's consistent with the X convention of metadata always flowing downstream and gaining adjustments along the way.

You can open the clip again and re-adjust it if necessary - and you can strip the "flowed in"correction entirely if desired and start over if you really want to.

Makes sense to me.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:23:21 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:25:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "Not quite sure why'd you'd want to"

For me grading is about context and shot-to-shot continuity. For instance, I might grade the same shot differently in two different sequences. If I add a base grade to the clip, I will want to make adjustments to it, if I don't think it's a good match when I cut it into a sequence with other shots. Since I can't access those source-applied color board settings in the timeline inspector, then I'm forced to add a grade on top, which might not be the best approach. If you open the clip again to readjust, you can't compare that easily to the clip before and after while readjusting the source setting.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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greg janza
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 1:31:59 pm

I think the color grading process is somewhat determined by the types of projects you work on. For example, I'm often working on projects where 1-2 terabytes of 4K b-roll has been shot. With that volume of material it would be a waste of time to prep it all with a base color grade.

So for those projects I only apply color work to the final sequence.

Other projects can also involve massive amounts of b-roll and interview but If i make string outs of everything i'll add a default LUT to virtually everything because it can be done so easily in the timeline.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 1, 2017 at 1:29:31 am

[Oliver Peters] "Since I can't access those source-applied color board settings in the timeline inspector, then I'm forced to add a grade on top, which might not be the best approach. I"

But that's precisely why I like the X approach.

The base grade arrives with the clip. Anything I add in my storyline just effects that unique use. So starting from "problems corrected" seems smart.

If the base grade wasn't smart - or I just want to "grade now from ground zero" - it's simple to strip the upstream grade off and work from scratch.

It's conceptual, I suppose. I think of Browser grading as "correcting to normal" and storyline grading as the stage where shot matching, looks application and creative grades happen. Two different things.

But whatever. As long as the editor can get where they want to go - It's all good.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Bill Davis
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:38:09 am

[Oliver Peters] "Bill, would you describe a bit more what you are doing here? "

Sure.

Let's say I have 5 "start and stop" shots from Camera A - all shot sequentially at one time and place.

On import, I'd take shot 1, and in the browser, invoke "Open Clip."

Typically I'd take a glance at the audio tracks first to see what was recorded. If I see unused tracks, I'd kill them right there. Hopefully they're fine and I can ignore audio till later!)

Next I'd open the scopes and color board and do my quick base grade. Mostly just exposure - pushing the highlight spikes to just under 100 - lifting the mids a touch, and getting the blacks near zero. Really just balancing things. If something obvious is wrong, I might crop to a face and Vectorscope a skin tone correction, but I just want a pleasing picture without major flaws.

Finally. I'll take a second to set the clip's Roles.

With that exemplar clip done, I'll select the clip and Command C to copy the changes.

Then batch paste them onto the other clips. (This presumes it's not exterior shifting light, obviously. More something like interior interviews.)

My "Reject pass" follows this, so from that point on, my expectation is that all the footage from that shoot will be useable in all my projects without additional adjustment needed.

That's my typical "post field shoot" process.

Hope that helps.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 29, 2017 at 12:18:12 pm

[Bill Davis] "That's my typical "post field shoot" process."

Thanks.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 1, 2017 at 9:12:08 am

[Bill Davis] "With that exemplar clip done, I'll select the clip and Command C to copy the changes.

Then batch paste them onto the other clips. (This presumes it's not exterior shifting light, obviously. More something like interior interviews.)

My "Reject pass" follows this, so from that point on, my expectation is that all the footage from that shoot will be useable in all my projects without additional adjustment needed."


Now I am curious. How is your method different from applying a master clip effect in Premiere Pro and batch pasting that master clip effect to 10,20 or even 30 clips in Premiere Pro's bin? You can delete or tweak the master clip effect for each clip separately. A quick video tutorial might help demonstrate why the FCPX method is better for color correction.


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Steve Connor
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 1, 2017 at 2:12:21 pm

[andy patterson] "A quick video tutorial might help demonstrate why the FCPX method is better for color correction."

Cool your jets Andy, no video tutorials needed here. Bill didn't actually say that the FCPX method is better than PPro, he's just talking about his own personal workflow.

Not everything on here is a sleight against PPro that you have to add balance to :)


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 1, 2017 at 3:09:38 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Oct 1, 2017 at 5:52:13 pm

[Steve Connor] "Cool your jets Andy, no video tutorials needed here"

Agreed. Let's not devolve the discussion into an FCPX vs PPro thing. It's about preference. Putting on my colorist's hat, it's a process I generally dislike, because it causes me more work in the end, especially when it's someone else who did that initial grade. However, wearing my editor's hat, it makes a lot of sense. It really just boils down to your own working habits and what makes sense for your way of working.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 1, 2017 at 9:10:15 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Steve Connor] "Cool your jets Andy, no video tutorials needed here"

Agreed. Let's not devolve the discussion into an FCPX vs PPro thing."



No FCPX VS Premiere Pro here.

After reading several of Bill's comments I was hoping to see something revolutionary and extremely unique to FCPX. I am not bad mouthing his methods. I use the Master Clip effects all the time and batch paste them. In fact I have a video about a minor bug (link below) when using the Master Clip Effect. I honestly was expecting something more than what I have been doing. That is why I thought a tutorial might be wise since I am still new to FCPX and thought I may have missed something. Having said that it appears Premiere and FCPX can offer the editor the same method. I think it is worth mentioning Premiere Pro can do the same thing because some Premiere Pro users might not be aware that it can. I think it is a good idea if we are all on the same page. To show everyone how much I love to glorify Adobe I have posted yet another link of myself badmouthing Premiere Pro. Having said that the bug was not always there and it may not affect the Mac OS.







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andy patterson
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 1, 2017 at 8:42:39 pm

[Steve Connor] "[andy patterson] "A quick video tutorial might help demonstrate why the FCPX method is better for color correction."

Cool your jets Andy, no video tutorials needed here. Bill didn't actually say that the FCPX method is better than PPro, he's just talking about his own personal workflow.

Not everything on here is a sleight against PPro that you have to add balance to :)"



Cool you jets Andy?

Really!

I never said he was bad mouthing Premiere Pro. That is something you read into. Shame on you! Keep in mind I did not comment on this thread until today.

Having said that Bill statements are often laced with that is the beauty of X's approach or something similar. You can see it in this thread as well. That type of wording implies thee is a benefit to FCPX VS other NLE. With all of Bill's comments describing FCPX as working with X, Y and Z I was hoping to see something beneficial as a FCPX users. I was not sure if there was more to it. That is why I stated a tutorial might be helpful. I am new to FCPX and I thought maybe I was missing something but it doesn't sound like I was.

You could simply have stated.

"There is no need for Bill to make a video because FCPX and Premiere Pro can do the same thing more or less"

You could have made a simple comment like the one above. Having said that did you know Premiere Pro can do the exact same thing as FCPX?

If not isn't it good for everyone to be on the same page as far as what the other NLE can do? I think that is what the forum is all about. After all has been said and done we now know FCPX and Premiere Pro and I imagine Avid can allow Bill to color correct they way he likes to. What is wrong with letting people know Premiere Pro (Avid might as well) can do the same thing?

[Bill Davis] "Using X has very much changed my approach to the entire video production process."

Perhaps all NLE in the year 2017 might allow Bill to change his approach from when he used FCP 7. I think in the year 2017 most NLE can do a lot of the same things. Having said that FCPX may seem light years beyond FCP 7 but so would all of the of the NLE as of 2017. Technology In general has change the way we all edit.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 1, 2017 at 9:11:32 pm

I think what might be more salient to the thread is that clients in general (in my opinion) are less tolerant of unpolished rough cuts than they might have been in the past. In part, this is due to the fact that production technology has changed along the way.

For instance, it used to be that the first pass was a cuts-only rough with burn-in. In those days, cameras didn't shoot log profiles, so you started with a look that was pretty close to final - set in-camera as Rec 709 by the DP/videographer. Now, many cameras shoot some type of log profile. If you work with a production that has a mix of camera formats, it's quite likely that you'll also have a mix of different log profiles, as well as some with and some without.

Today's equivalent to the rough cut that you might have turned in a few years ago - which probably looked pretty decent back then - will look awful today, unless you put some effort into color correction before the client sees it. If you don't, at best, you'll have to add some caveats for the client to understand what they are looking at. At worst, the client is completely taken out of it and will have lots of comments over things that shouldn't be an issue, like basic color correction.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 1, 2017 at 10:04:01 pm

[Oliver Peters] "At worst, the client is completely taken out of it and will have lots of comments over things that shouldn't be an issue, like basic color correction."

In my experience, even if you tell clients exactly what stage the edit is at and what they shouldn't comment on, a lot of time they still comment on it anyway.

Wherever possible I try to deliver edits that look as finished as possible, even if it involves rough grades that will be removed before final grading.

Fortunately modern NLE's make simple grading very easy


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Tony West
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 4:09:19 pm

For the most part I'm showing them a completed product. Sound, color, music, everything.

I'm prepared for them to make changes, but I feel I'm being hired for my creative vision so that's what I'm giving them.

Side note, that's what made me really like X in the first place. It fits my style of showing completed work because that far into it, if they want changes you are moving a lot more pieces around.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Sep 28, 2017 at 9:59:08 pm

[Walter Soyka] "A rather broad question, but how do you present your WIPs to clients or stakeholders?
"


Another frame.io user here too. It's been great for us as there is no account that our clients have to sign up for, it's very easy to use, everything is contextual, they can draw on it if they want, we can download an XML and put our comments right on our timelines, we can communicate back and forth through it saving some email exchange. Basically, it has removed a layer of interpretation for us. In general, knowledge the language of the medium is as high as it's even been. It's probably the YouTube effect. If there's ins't a YouTube effect, you heard it here first! The era of



is waning.

Fortunately, most clients seem to be familiar with a rough cut, or versions with many caveats, and more and more clients are familiar with frame.io specifically which is great. I have a cheat sheet written up in case anyone asks how to use it. In the four-ish months we have deployed frame.io for out clients, I haven't had to send the cheat sheet once, which is great.

We typically don't polish too far, but we polish a little to make it presentable. I think finishing is one of the most dramatic parts of the process, after everything is professionally recorded, graded, mixed and voiced, it makes one last impression on the client when it goes from a 'locked' cut to the final version.

It depends on the job, but we typically send early versions or even teasers, to make sure we are going down the right path. If it's a doc piece, we often send paper edit versions, with interview sting outs in rough order or content "buckets", to get things going. More and more, we need to send transcripts OF EVERY EDIT (notice the allcaps) in order for legal to review. Every single rough cut, or version we send to clients, their legal team will quickly track it. This makes tools like Subvert, SpeedScriber, or Scribomatic nearly essential.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 2:19:31 am

[Walter Soyka] "A rather broad question, but how do you present your WIPs to clients or stakeholders?

What do you hope to get out of a review? What level of roughness or polish do you aim to provide early on? How much does color/mix affect your WIPs? What process or guidelines do you put around review? What tools do you use?"


Same back to you.

What do you do?


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 10:26:12 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Same back to you. What do you do"

Most of our work is design-led, so we are maybe a bit different than most of the other posters here. Generally, we try to fail as fast as possible. The purpose of early reviews is to test ideas: we want to push the boundaries of the input (or establish an anchor when input is minimal), to learn what works and what doesn't.

Because the polish IS the work, we try to break a whole piece down into smaller chunks rather than doing the whole thing and hoping for the best. It's really hard to nail the level of detail just right, and it depends a lot on who will be reviewing the work. An outside creative director has a different tolerance for using their imagination than an end client might (but every so often, those roles reverse, just to keep us on our toes). Whenever we share something for review, we first seek general input, then ask some specific questions to learn more about the impact of the decisions we make.

Our approach to a project varies according to its requirements. Sometimes we'll start with moodboards, then storyboards, then animatics, then final production. Other times, when we have a better sense of what's required upfront, we'll dive right in.

We try to show final color early in process, but final mix later.

For review tools, we're a mix of Wipster and Frame.io, depending on the client. We're currently looking to transition completely to Frame.io for video, but Wipster is tempting me back with multi-page PDF reviews. We're also developing a custom tool for previsualization.

The thing that surprised me most about this thread is how many folks seem to charge straight ahead, with one solution in mind. We find clients expect options and value exploration of multiple ideas.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Tony West
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 1:22:02 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The thing that surprised me most about this thread is how many folks seem to charge straight ahead, with one solution in mind. We find clients expect options and value exploration of multiple ideas.
"


It's all about the pre pro Walter. I tend not to roll a single frame until there is a script and or shot sheet.

The time for "exploration" is in that process, not the day of the shoot. That's not to say that you can't add stuff during production. We do that all the time but by this stage we should all be on board with the general concept and goals.

After pre pro and production, there doesn't tend to be many surprises in post.

"Options" can cost money and these days budgets are tight.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 11, 2017 at 10:47:39 am

[Tony West] "It's all about the pre pro Walter. I tend not to roll a single frame until there is a script and or shot sheet. The time for "exploration" is in that process, not the day of the shoot. That's not to say that you can't add stuff during production. We do that all the time but by this stage we should all be on board with the general concept and goals."

That makes sense. How does exploration work for you in pre-pro?


[Tony West] "After pre pro and production, there doesn't tend to be many surprises in post. "Options" can cost money and these days budgets are tight."

For us, working on projects with a lot of synthetic assets, post is production. Clients expect to see options because they're putting money into the project and want to know they're getting the best work they can afford.

It's really interesting to me how similar our work may seem on the surface, but how different the expectations and process can be.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Tony West
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 11, 2017 at 4:27:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "How does exploration work for you in pre-pro?"

It's all about understanding what they do and what they want to convey. Listening and learning about them and then using creative talent and experience in the biz to craft the project that will achieve their goals.

That's the time to kick around ideas and concepts for me.

The latest Dove ad disaster is a perfect example. You better believe that if I were in the room that "concept" would have never got out the door. I would have shot that down early in the process. You see, sometimes they don't know, and they are relying on you to advice against a tone deaf spot like that.

[Walter Soyka] "It's really interesting to me how similar our work may seem on the surface, but how different the expectations and process can be."

I'm not so sure the expectations are that different. I'm looking at options same as you, maybe just earlier in the process.

It seems that your options in post would be somewhat limited to your footage that was already shot.

Do you find yourself going back and reshooting often and if not, how far can you expand on what's already there?


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 18, 2017 at 10:30:47 am

[Tony West] "I'm not so sure the expectations are that different. I'm looking at options same as you, maybe just earlier in the process. It seems that your options in post would be somewhat limited to your footage that was already shot. Do you find yourself going back and reshooting often and if not, how far can you expand on what's already there?"

We're not just post. Most of what we do is design, and footage is just a suggestion. Our clients have graphic design expectations (present a number of options, perform a number of revisions), but we operate in a video context.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Steve Connor
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 18, 2017 at 10:33:07 am
Last Edited By Steve Connor on Oct 18, 2017 at 10:33:45 am

[Walter Soyka] "We're not just post. Most of what we do is design, and footage is just a suggestion. Our clients have graphic design expectations (present a number of options, perform a number of revisions), but we operate in a video context.
"


Just checked out some of your work - wow! Whatever your process is, it clearly produces spectacular results!

BTW I have stolen your quote for my new sig - thanks

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: How do you present work-in-progress?
on Oct 10, 2017 at 5:21:02 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The thing that surprised me most about this thread is how many folks seem to charge straight ahead, with one solution in mind. We find clients expect options and value exploration of multiple ideas."

I think the charging straight ahead approach is an unfortunate necessity in some aspects of the industry because clients want to comment on something that looks like nearly finished product even though it's just the first pass.

Some people can look at paint swatches and decided what color to paint a room. Other people need to see a bit of paint on the wall. Other people need a whole wall painted. Other people need the whole room painted, furniture placed, and drapes hung before they can start the decision making process.


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