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Steve Connor
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 6:55:10 pm

Timely post Oliver, thanks. Worth posting in the FCPX forum as well?


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 7:02:26 pm

Good idea. Done.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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greg janza
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 7:00:58 pm

Classic Apple move.

Here's my favorite line from the fcp.co post:
"For example, a USB storage device formatted as APFS can be read by a Mac using High Sierra, but not by a Mac using Sierra or earlier.”

Apple, creating the need for third-party software developers since 1976.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 7:07:26 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Sep 15, 2017 at 7:12:05 pm

I think for now the SOP should be:
- Your internal Mac drive (new machines) - APFS
- External drives for Mac use - HFS+
- USB "thumb" drives - Fat32 (still) or ExFat

An unknown is whether on day one, will there be any read/write (native or with an extension) compatibility with NTFS-formatted (Windows) external drives?

NAS and SAN drives will need to be connected via SMB or NFS protocols, I presume.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 7:19:36 pm

Sounds like if like many of us, you have a closet full of HFS + formatted drives with archives of prior projects, what you need to do is pretty much nothing.

When (if) you migrate to High Sierra - your archives will be fully accessible on day one.

And if you resurrect an old project and work on it in High Sierra - the only thing you lose is total compatibility if anyone then wants to open the High Sierra version back in the older OS.

It's great this is being discussed up front and for editors inside big IT installations without OS deployment control, very important.

But for most editors NOT in big facilities - this is essentially a non-issue.

Do I have this correct?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 8:10:13 pm

[Bill Davis] "It's great this is being discussed up front and for editors inside big IT installations without OS deployment control, very important.
But for most editors NOT in big facilities - this is essentially a non-issue.
Do I have this correct?"


Actually I think it's the other way around. This is probably an update that you should hold back on and see what issues pop up, rather than jumping right in. A bit of an unknown is how it will actually work in dual-boot situations. For example, those who want to be able to boot into an older OS to access FCP "legacy". Right now there are still some unknowns that we need to see what happens once it's in the wild. A good reason to keep an old Mac Pro around frozen on an old build.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 8:31:18 pm

I can envision this being a potential headache for any scenario where drives are being sent around (either between you and the client or you and other members of your team). For example, I recently did some work on a doc as an AE and the producer provided both a master and backup drive as well as a handful of 'travel' drives for shutting small amounts of material around. The drives got repeatedly passed between the editor, the producer, the colorist, the rerecording mixer, a post house and myself. All of us live/work in Los Angeles, but we were never in the same room together (aside from the producer who doubled as the drive shuttler).


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greg janza
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 10:09:56 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I can envision this being a potential headache for any scenario where drives are being sent around"

I completely agree. Most of my work comes to me on shipped drives that have originated on a wide variety of systems. The notion of a drive not mounting due to lack of OS compatibility used to solely be an issue in Windows but even that's gone away.

But like with so many things Apple, hopefully if there is compatibility issues, a third party company like Tuxera will offer up a fix to save the day.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 10:53:13 pm

FWIW, it's my understanding that spinning drives won't be formatted to APFS so this won't make any difference. if you're exchanging SSD's then it's a consideration...

For "dual boot" situations, I plan on buying an external HD, and cloning my Sierra system before I update. If for some reason I need to get an FCP 7 project or something, just plug in and reboot.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 10:55:06 pm

It will also be a factor for new machines purchased after macOS HS is released.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 10:58:09 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Sep 15, 2017 at 10:58:42 pm

[Oliver Peters] "It will also be a factor for new machines purchased after macOS HS is released."

In what sense? Also, I'm pretty sure that non-apple SSD's won't format as APFS either. I know it's true of some SSD's from OWC or other vendors that have been installed internally.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 11:26:12 pm

[Charlie Austin] "In what sense?"

I said "new" machines, not existing or upgraded machines with third-party SSDs. If you buy a new Mac laptop, Mac Pro or iMac with SSD, it will come formatted as APFS whether or not you want it that way. This means you will likely have a mixed environments in most shops and will have to be cognizant of the potential issues.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 15, 2017 at 11:33:40 pm

There's yet another issue. I work in one shop with a NAS shared editing set-up. They have one 2013 Mac Pro, four iMacs with Fusion drives, and two older Mac Pro towers with OWC SSDs. So, I cannot bring any of these machines up to High Sierra, because the 2013 Mac Pro will be automatically reformatted as APFS, but none of the others. If we upgrade, then we have a mixed format condition that we have to be mindful of and careful dealing with. For example, making damn sure that anyone working on the 2013 MP doesn't accidentally format an external drive as APFS. I'm sure we can deal with this going forward, but it's a consideration we shouldn't have to deal with.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 16, 2017 at 12:51:39 am

[Oliver Peters] "I'm sure we can deal with this going forward, but it's a consideration we shouldn't have to deal with."

So, in a perfect world, what's the solution? Keep the old filesystem? Make compromises to the new FS so it can be read by old OS versions? Update old OS's (how far back?) to read APFS?

Seems like all you need to do is say "don't format external drives as APFS" right?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 16, 2017 at 1:22:16 am

[Charlie Austin] "So, in a perfect world, what's the solution?"

1. Give customers with Apple SSDs the option to NOT reformat the drive to APFS, just like they have if their machine had a Fusion drive or a third party SSD.

2. Make sure the Disk Utility does not default to formatting APFS as the first choice.

3. Make sure macOS "HS" under APFS can also read/write/format NTFS - or that compatibility with Tuxera is maintained.

4. Provide a big "compatibility" warning if you are about to format APFS on an external.

5. Add an extension or something to older versions, so that at least the previous macOS version can read/write to APFS-formatted drives.

[Charlie Austin] "Seems like all you need to do is say "don't format external drives as APFS" right?"

Sure, until you run into a situation outside of your control. Like when your clueless client walks in with an APFS drive that can't read because you aren't on HS and no one knows why it can't be read.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 16, 2017 at 1:26:01 am

[Oliver Peters]"Sure, until you run into a situation outside of your control. Like when your clueless client walks in with an APFS drive that can't read because you aren't on HS and no one knows why it can't be read."

It seems ironic that I may be better placed to deal with this than Apple users if MacDrive gives me the ability to read write to the gormless clients drive when it can't be read on most Macs.


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Brett Sherman
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 17, 2017 at 9:04:46 pm

Why would having OS on different disk formats matter? It's pretty much invisible to the user and its not like you're swapping system drives back and forth. I'm not even sure when formatting an external drive if it matters whether what your system drive is.

I personally don't see any reason to jump in anytime soon. But I'm not overly concerned when I get a new Mac either. The only thing may be if some day they drop HFS+ support in the distant future. But I got much bigger things to worry about.

--------------------------
Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it's video related I'll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 16, 2017 at 12:30:39 am

[Charlie Austin] "FWIW, it's my understanding that spinning drives won't be formatted to APFS so this won't make any difference. if you're exchanging SSD's then it's a consideration... "

From what I read users can opt-out of using APFS on spinning drives, but if the default is APFS then I bet most will users will end up using APFS.


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Michael Gissing
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 16, 2017 at 1:10:22 am

Lets hope the clever people who make MacDrive will have an update in time so my Win PCs can read/write this new format.

I've never understood why the ability to read and write to multiple drive formats isn't inside an OS. With Linux Mint on my laptop, I can read lots of formats including HFS+, NTFS, all the various FATs and all the Linux formats plus lots that I don't ever see. Interestingly HFS+ is the only 'read only' formats in Linux and that must be because Apple forces that. NTFS drives are read/ write so clearly Microsoft plays ball. It's only when you step outside of the cloistered Apple world that you see how much less inclined they are to share and play nicely.


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 16, 2017 at 3:19:52 am

[Andrew Kimery] "From what I read users can opt-out of using APFS on spinning drives, but if the default is APFS then I bet most will users will end up using APFS."

Well, it seems as though, as it always has, High Sierra Disk Utility defaults to whatever the drive is currently formatted to. If it's EX-Fat, than that's the "default". If HFS+ than that's the default. You have to explicitly choose APFS on a drive that's been previously formatted. Not sure what happens on a bare drive, but that's a pretty unusual scenario for most users.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 17, 2017 at 12:38:32 pm

From Shirt Pocket's blog (SuperDuper!):

http://www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/index.php/shadedgrey/comments/news_on_the_...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: APFS considerations
on Sep 17, 2017 at 11:20:51 pm

I thought it almost more interesting that the article says HS is perfectly fine running 32 bit apps, it's just that the app store will stop having 32bit apps. This means all the recent panic that HS won't running Legend may not be true?

Also the article says that APFS isn't faster than HFS+and remains undocumented so no-one seems to know what improvement it might offer.


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26:51 pm

APFS will only work on SSD's for now. Unless you installed an early beta on your spinning drive, it won't change. https://beta.apple.com/sp/betaprogram/apfsfusion

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 18, 2017 at 10:04:37 pm

[Charlie Austin] "APFS will only work on SSD's for now. Unless you installed an early beta on your spinning drive, it won't change. https://beta.apple.com/sp/betaprogram/apfsfusion"

Crisis averted... for now. ;)


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 18, 2017 at 11:27:29 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Crisis averted... for now. ;)"

Yep, hold off on panicking. Doom and gloom is timeless though... 😉

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 18, 2017 at 11:31:15 pm

[Charlie Austin]"Doom and gloom is timeless though... 😉"

Just like blind optimism :)


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 19, 2017 at 12:24:25 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Sep 19, 2017 at 12:53:38 am

[Michael Gissing] "Just like blind optimism :)"

Of course. I think if you did a survey of all the users of any OS, NLE, whatever... you'd find that the blind optimists are in a minuscule minority. I think doom and gloomers are a larger subset. Both are very vocal. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 19, 2017 at 4:07:05 pm

FWIW - no one was ever panicked and the info was clear that this only affected Apple-branded SSDs. Unfortunately the information that Apple has supplied so far is incomplete and inadequate to completely understand the impact.

http://www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/

In any case, this means all MB, MBP, iMac, and 2013 MP machines with SSDs will be affected if you upgrade. It will also affect all new machines sold after that point.

The biggest danger in this OS is that now files are referenced rather than redundant. So if you copy a file from one place to another on the APFS-formatted drive, it will be referenced, not actually copied. If the sector on the disk that actually contains the file data goes bad, you've lost all instances of that file on the drive.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 19, 2017 at 4:27:55 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The biggest danger in this OS is that now files are referenced rather than redundant. So if you copy a file from one place to another on the APFS-formatted drive, it will be referenced, not actually copied. If the sector on the disk that actually contains the file data goes bad, you've lost all instances of that file on the drive."

APFS has been rocking and rolling on iOS devices since 10.3 in March. It does have some real-world use under its belt, albeit a very different use case.

I would caution everyone to make sure their everyday applications will support APFS. I know the Flame family, for example, specifically does not support APFS at this time:

"As many of you have likely heard, Apple will be releasing macOS High Sierra (10.13) beta in the coming weeks, which will include a new Apple File System (APFS). This new Apple File System is not compatible with the Flame Family of products. Installing macOS High Sierra beta on systems running Flame, Flame Assist or Flare may prevent the applications from launching, and possibly compromise project data. We will be sure to update you with any developments as Autodesk and Apple work to address this."

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/flame-forum/flame-family-and-the-upcoming-ma...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 19, 2017 at 5:12:55 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 19, 2017 at 5:14:04 pm

Screenflow just sent out a similar warning to its registered users



Clearly the High Sierra move is going to require more than a few developers to revise their software for the new environment.

But they surely will.

The Apple market is way too big to ignore.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 19, 2017 at 5:30:33 pm

[Bill Davis] "Clearly the High Sierra move is going to require more than a few developers to revise their software for the new environment. But they surely will. The Apple market is way too big to ignore."

Sure. It'll just take a little while.

Apple does not give developers enough quite time to adapt to changes like this. They require developers to drop their own priorities and scramble on compatibility. It creates occasional short period of uncertainty where you can't run your apps on the new OS, and you can't buy a new Mac with the old OS.

The price of progress on the Mac platform, perhaps?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 19, 2017 at 7:25:46 pm

Tracking what does and doesn't work in the pro apps user world:

http://finalcutprox.guru/blogs-main/products-blog/files/HSandHighSierra.htm...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 20, 2017 at 12:05:42 am

[Walter Soyka]"The price of progress on the Mac platform, perhaps?"

But is it progress? One article Oliver pointed to said there was no speed improvement with this formatting other than referencing not copying which as he pointed out has potential pitfalls. Is is just change, control or actual improvement? Hard to know with so little documentation out there.


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 20, 2017 at 1:06:59 am

[Michael Gissing] "But is it progress? One article Oliver pointed to said there was no speed improvement with this formatting other than referencing not copying which as he pointed out has potential pitfalls. Is is just change, control or actual improvement? Hard to know with so little documentation out there."

So little documentation

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 20, 2017 at 1:13:20 am

I'm not a developer but the article Oliver posted lamented the lack of technical documentation.


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greg janza
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 20, 2017 at 1:25:50 am

Charlie, thanks for the link to the documentation.

And while it's nice to have the official information, what remains infuriating about Apple is that the company is on the verge of releasing an OS update that includes a complete overhaul of their file system structure and yet the documentation is relegated to the developer section of their site.

I Hate Television. I Hate It As Much As Peanuts. But I Can’t Stop Eating Peanuts.
- Orson Welles


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Walter Soyka
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 20, 2017 at 1:48:58 am

[greg janza] "And while it's nice to have the official information, what remains infuriating about Apple is that the company is on the verge of releasing an OS update that includes a complete overhaul of their file system structure and yet the documentation is relegated to the developer section of their site."

The file system is kind of invisible to the user, though, so what is there to document? Most users will never notice a thing, other than the longer upgrade while the file system converts.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 20, 2017 at 1:14:15 am

The thing is that since at LEAST the migration of FCP to the App Store with X, the entire Apple distribution model has been based on "ship good enough to be useful" then relentlessly improve over time.

EVERY NLE - heck, every computer program period - now follows this model.

It's JIT and Agile totally taking over from any thought of "perfect then ship."

It's how today works.

High Sierra appears to me to be a major platform change - designed to set up the future. And as such, High Sierra 1.0 will be a bit like a FCP X 1.0. Get the concepts out there so users can start learning them. With an eye to going farther, faster than you could have - if you hadn't changed the fundamentals.

Very Apple, really.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Charlie Austin
Re: APFS - Don't Panic :-)
on Sep 20, 2017 at 2:06:03 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Sep 20, 2017 at 2:07:41 am

[Bill Davis] "And as such, High Sierra 1.0 will be a bit like a FCP X 1.0. Get the concepts out there so users can start learning them."

Uh no... not with something as fundamental as the filesystem.

Thing is, there is a ton of documentation out there, and APFS has been on iOS for quite some time. I'm sure more documentation will appear, but there's clearly enough to enable Bombich to get CCC ready for HS, and they deal with some seriously low level stuff.

https://bombich.com/blog/2017/09/14/preparing-upgrade-macos-high-sierra

https://bombich.com/kb/ccc5/everything-you-need-know-about-carbon-copy-clon...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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