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Tom Sefton
Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 5:02:22 pm

https://spark.adobe.com/page/hBcGUuawC0r1q/

Red smartphone, capable of holographic display without glasses.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Shawn Miller
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 5:32:31 pm

I was hoping for an inexpensive, compact cinema camera... like the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera or the Micro Cinema Camera. ☹

Shawn



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Tom Sefton
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 5:49:50 pm

Never trusted the black magic pocket camera so yes a red version would be great, but to get much cheaper than their raven and maintain some sort of market position over someone who would buy cheap as possible would be really difficult.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 6:08:33 pm

$1200 for the low end model and current prices are temporary, introductory prices. Yikes.

Stupid question, why not just make a pocket camera instead of a pocket camera cell phone? And I wonder how modular it's going to be. Like just the camera part is modular? Or is the whole thing modular like Google's Project Ara? The glasses-free angle seems kinda half true since you'll still need a contraption to keep it on your face for VR. Amazon released a glasses-free 3D phone a couple of years ago and no one seemed interested in it.

It seems like this will have to be a field camera first, a great display second and a phone third.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 6:41:22 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "
It seems like this will have to be a field camera first, a great display second and a phone third."


Nope, it's all about the display. The headline is "Holographic Media Machine. No Glasses Needed."

The headline SHOULD have been "Glasses-Free VR/AR", because that is in fact what this is about. The money quote from Forbes magazine, which ALMOST got the headline right: Billionaire Jim Jannard Launches First Virtual Reality Smartphone.



The only reason the phone is there at all is to prevent device creep. It's all about playback, which is why the product sheet makes prominent mention of RED setting up their distribution channel for content, including user-created content.

Do take a look at the product sheet if you haven't. The most striking thing to me is that it makes ZERO mention of the camera. Does it even have a camera? 😂 Surely it does, but there's sure no mention of it here.

Notably, it DOES mention that the system is modular, and includes several mentions of "future" attachments for higher-quality for shooting -- but for now, this is for media CONSUMPTION, not production.

With one notable exception: it works with RED cameras (Weapon, Scarlet, EPIC) as a control UI and monitor. The point being that the camera in this device isn't doing the heavy lifting. It isn't doing anything at all until the future attachments arrive, which makes sense. We already have a bajillion ways to create VR, AR, 3D, and holographic content, and we have for decades, if not centuries. (Don't forget that stereography precedes photography by a good long stretch.)

What we HAVEN'T had is a way to view that stuff without glasses. THAT's the breakthrough here. The DISPLAY.





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Andrew Kimery
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 7:27:44 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Nope, it's all about the display. The headline is "Holographic Media Machine. No Glasses Needed.""

Maybe I'm missing something, but AR has been glasses free for a long time and the Nintendo 3DS and Amazon's Fire Phone did glasses-free 3D years ago.

With regards to VR, immersive and interactive are the selling points of VR and you can't do that unless something his holding the screen in front of your eyes and blocking out your peripheral vision. And if you want to do any short of interactive VR then you need a controller too (or an array of motion sensors/cameras)

And since "no one wants to drag around another piece of gear that has to be charged every day" then Hydrogen has to be a good enough smart phone to get people to ditch their Samsungs and iPhones.

I think there are so few cameras specs because they are still trying to figure out what the camera specs will be. If the modules are like the big camera add-ons other companies offer for smart phones then you basically kill the 'all in one, fits in your pocket' selling point. If you have to have a bag to hold extra gear for your smart phone's camera then why not just put a better camera in there since you have to have the bag with you anyone? An iPhone plus a DSLR and accessories instead of an iPhone plus a Hydrogen and accessories.

I don't think there is much of a mass-market for a very expensive media consumption device (I'm having Redray flashbacks 😉 ). The iPad was originally pitched as a consumption-centric device but after flat sales Apple started to push the productivity aspect of it more and more (and of course they released the iPad Pro).


Obviously color me skeptical. ;)


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Tom Sefton
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 6:51:16 pm

$1200 for a wireless display screen for red dsmc2 that controls the camera is fantastic value. No, incredible. If the display is fully holographic and you can create content and deliver to a red developed medium it could be huge.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Noah Kadner
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 7:51:24 pm

I'm guessing ironically the phone itself won't shoot holographic content but only 2D. Creating anything close to holographic content seems like it requires multiple optical lenses plus some form of depth scanning.

Noah

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Tim Wilson
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 8:53:01 pm

[Noah Kadner] "I'm guessing ironically the phone itself won't shoot holographic content but only 2D. Creating anything close to holographic content seems like it requires multiple optical lenses plus some form of depth scanning."

That's where the future accessories come in, I think. Newshooter actually did a nice deep dive on a couple of recent patent applications in anticipation of today's announcements, and there are some very interesting drawings I'll break down in another post.

But no, to underscore the key point: this phone is not about the camera. Nothing about the camera.

Not the camera.

The display.

Only the display.

And no, not a display like you've seen before. Glasses-free 3D and AR have been around for many generations of technology. They're no big deal. After you've deflated all the hype and gotten past missed deadlines, you still have a solid legacy from RED of NOT doing the same technology you've seen before.

Jannard actually spoke about this at some length in a follow-up to this morning's announcements. Emphasis added here and there is by me.

So… very interesting day to say the least. I love some of the reactions.

In no particular order, let me take a few swings here.

The Holographic Display.
It is incredible. It is multi-view (4-view) as compared to stereo 3D (2-view). Watching shocked faces light up when people see it is really motivating. There is no good way to describe it until you see it. Hopefully we will get some skeptics eyes on it soon… then they can tell you.

Our display is technology you haven’t seen before. It is not lenticular, which is inferior tech in every way, has been tried many times before and failed for good reason. (see Amazon 3D Fire, LG Optimus, etc). Lenticular display dramatically lowers resolution, cannot be turned off for standard 2D content, only works in one direction (usually landscape), has color crosstalk… to name just a few issues. My bet is that other “big” companies will try to re-package lenticular 3D displays with eye-tracking in response to our program. Don’t fall for it.

Why did some Redusers blindly order HYDROGEN today without even reading the release? This seems incredible to those unfamiliar with the RED program. Over the past 10 years RED has gone from scam (announcing the impossible) to delivering the impossible… over and over. Our core customers have seen and participated in this process and have stories to tell. Apparently we have earned their “blind trust” because we have not let them down. We understand that those unfamiliar with our history will certainly not get this.

Some additional details. One website said it was unclear whether HYDROGEN came with a battery. Let me assure you that it does. ☺

It also comes with internal storage and an external micro SD card slot. And a headphone jack. A selfie camera and a back camera. These cameras will not produce cinema quality images. No cell phone does. What we will have is a modular system that adds image quality well beyond any other camera short of our professional cameras. Remember that we have a lot of elbow room on this front. Our Weapon Helium sensor scored 108 on DXOMark.com That beat the Sony A7RII by 10 full points.

https://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/RED-...me-high-score2

So why do we feel we can make a difference in the cell phone market? Because we are doing everything different and (we feel) better. That is the only way to enter a market. That was the thinking behind Oakley. It was the thinking when we released the RED ONE. Same formula. Make something significantly better and you have a reason to be.

We look forward to releasing many more details and specs about the project as time goes along. Anytime you don’t like what you see, full refund for any reason spoken here. However… be prepared to be surprised on the upside. It only gets better the more information you have.

Today we saw the full range from “complete trust” to “hard skepticism”. I have seen this before… many times actually. Makes me smile.

Jim


While you may or may not agree that the RED One delivered on 100% of its initial hype, it certainly delivered something genuinely substantial, and grew in some compelling directions from there. Whether or not you personally use their stuff, you've benefitted from the kick they gave the industry's ass.

So I don't think it's at all a stretch to give them enough benefit of the doubt that, if it sounds like they're talking about something you've seen before to, to recognize that in fact, it isn't. 😎

Which is to say of course that I don't know anything either. But he said last year that he's been quiet for the past few years because he was working on something bigger than anything else he's tried before, and this certainly fits the bill.



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Noah Kadner
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 9:52:11 pm
Last Edited By Noah Kadner on Jul 6, 2017 at 9:52:49 pm

Oh I ordered two but being a technologist isn't much different from being a hedge fund trader. Sometimes you just guess.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops
XinTwo - FCPX Training


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 7, 2017 at 2:21:00 am

[Tim Wilson] "So I don't think it's at all a stretch to give them enough benefit of the doubt that, if it sounds like they're talking about something you've seen before to, to recognize that in fact, it isn't. 😎 "

Jannard says he thinks he can make a difference in the cell phone market, and I'm just trying to figure out how a $1200 (introductory, pre-order price) cell phone with an amaze balls screen and amazing camera add-ons makes a difference in the cell phone market. It runs Android so it's not like it offers a new/unique software experience (hopefully it's full Android and not a proprietary fork) and, like I said before, the add-ons needed for the camera and for VR don't jive with the "one device in your pocket" bullet point.

Sure RED has tweaked the big companies into action a few times, but once moving the old guard have the ways had means to get quality products to market at a speed and scale RED can't match. The Red ONE got put out to pasture early because RED learned a lot of things from their first 'never gonna be obsolete camera'. The Redray barely made it out the door, and the 3K for $3K DSMC never saw the light of day because of DSRLs.

Is RED making a better cell phone? Is RED making a better media consumption device? Is RED making a better pocket camera? Is RED making all three with at a price point thats destined to fail?


I'm not dissing anyone for trying, I'm just skeptical (in part because of RED's history of over reaching).


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Noah Kadner
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 7, 2017 at 3:48:58 am

Yeah I would've accepted an awesome camera and holo player with RED's OS. Never planning to replace my iphone with an Android phone no matter whose fork it is.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops
XinTwo - FCPX Training


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Shawn Miller
Re: Red Hydrogen
on Jul 6, 2017 at 7:39:40 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Never trusted the black magic pocket camera so yes a red version would be great, but to get much cheaper than their raven and maintain some sort of market position over someone who would buy cheap as possible would be really difficult."

The BMPCC is actually a pretty cool little camera; 13 stops of dynamic range, 10 bit Prores or 12 bit raw. I've used it as a B camera for green screen shoots and for shots where larger cameras weren't the best option. I think an inexpensive RED device that shoots .rd3 in a compact form factor would sell really well.

Shawn



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