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Informal NLE poll

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Oliver Peters
Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 12:59:03 pm

Since the question of numbers and market penetration seems to come up frequently in some of these threads, I'm curious what the people in this forum run across in their own personal encounters. Obviously this is unofficial, but let's limit it to what you see at networks, broadcasters, larger corporate video departments, and larger facilities - not small one-man bands/ma & pa shops/YouTubers. Just for grins.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 1:04:15 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Obviously this is unofficial, but let's limit it to what you see at networks, broadcasters, larger corporate video departments, and larger facilities"

So you have tainted the "results" already. Let me guess: Premiere and Avid. ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Walter Soyka
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 2:13:41 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Obviously this is unofficial, but let's limit it to what you see at networks, broadcasters, larger corporate video departments, and larger facilities"

[Scott Witthaus] "So you have tainted the "results" already. Let me guess: Premiere and Avid. ;-)"

For a lot of folks here, those constraints represent the most viable customers. From that perspective, it would be "tainting" to include "small one-man bands/ma & pa shops/YouTubers" because they do not represent potential customers.

But really, it's a straw poll among a self-selecting group of editors on the Internet. This poll comes pre-tainted, practically by definition.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 2:48:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "For a lot of folks here, those constraints represent the most viable customers."

Would you say an equal amount here belong to the groups excluded? Small shops, one man bands, etc?

I am working at a larger shop next week and requested (and granted) having FCPX loaded on the system because I did not want to use Premiere. What group do I belong to?

[Walter Soyka] "But really, it's a straw poll among a self-selecting group of editors on the Internet. This poll comes pre-tainted, practically by definition."

Exactly.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 3:09:55 pm

Just bear in mind that small shops, et al are generally not employers of outside editors. Typically the owners/principals are the only editors. That's why I don't think they are relevant to this type of poll. In most cases they could use anything, but of course, I know that they are likely the majority segment of total users. But they are such an odd mix, because you have guys like Devon SuperTramp who shoots with REDs, while other "YouTubers" soot with iPhones ☺ Same for NLEs, I suppose. I'm much more curious about the business community around me and other places.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 1:10:26 pm

I'll go one better and give you a "formal" poll which supposedly shows (market share):

AVID: 4.5%
Camtasia: 9.9%
FlowPlayer: 16.8%
Premiere: 20.8%
Final Cut Pro: 23.8%

https://idatalabs.com/tech/audio-video-editing

Then I will sit back and wait for Tim to remind us how to treat polls of this kind. it's usually pretty withering, I seem to remember.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Tom Sefton
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 1:12:34 pm

78% of statistics are made up.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 1:15:52 pm

[Tom Sefton] "78% of statistics are made up."

Apart from the ones we personally like to rely on, which are 100% correct.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 1:52:28 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "So you have tainted the "results" already. Let me guess: Premiere and Avid. ;-)"

Only if that's your take. In my market, yes, a lot of both. However, FCPX shows up at places like Campus Crusade for Christ and a unit of the VA Hospital System.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 3:44:22 pm

[Tom Sefton] "78% of statistics are made up."

50% of the time, you're right 100% of the time.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 2:09:38 pm

Among our agency clientele, we see companies using Premiere Pro over FCPX at a ratio of about 3 to 1.

We've worked with just a couple of Avid die-hard users in the last few years -- literally, two -- and I think they both also use Premiere Pro. We don't work with anyone still using FCP7 in 2017, nor anyone using Resolve yet as an NLE. We don't know anyone actually cutting on Smoke, but Flame is alive and well in finishing (though we see way more Ae/NUKE than Flame in our market, and we have yet to see Fusion in the wild).

These observations are highly anecdotal, and of course correlation is not the same as causation, but hey, this IS the debate forum... so presented without judgment: the agencies we see who use Premiere Pro are chasing and winning projects with significantly bigger budgets than the agencies we see who use FCPX.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 2:23:36 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Among our agency clientele, we see companies using Premiere Pro over FCPX at a ratio of about 3 to 1. "

I know it's the question but I wonder how many places use only one NLE and how many use or at least have access to a range of them.

So for example the answer to the question "Which NLE does the BBC use?" would be "All of them".

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Walter Soyka
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 2:42:36 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I know it's the question but I wonder how many places use only one NLE and how many use or at least have access to a range of them. So for example the answer to the question "Which NLE does the BBC use?" would be "All of them"."

More questionably-useful anecdotes: all of the FCPX shops I know have access to Premiere Pro. They have full Creative Cloud subscriptions for Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects, and maybe a little Audition here and there. They choose to use FCPX for editorial, despite the Premiere Pro icon sitting there happily on the Dock.

I don't see the same access on the other side of the aisle.

I'm in New York. As Tim has quipped, this market is truly the Big Apple. I haven't seen a PC in an agency edit room since the Avid Adrenaline days, but lately, PC envy has been on the rise. Every time I show up to a meeting with my Surface, I field a couple of questions about the PC platform, and a number of the Premiere Pro freelance editors I know have moved from just talking about replacing their Macs with PCs to actually doing it.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 3:10:34 pm

[Walter Soyka] " the agencies we see who use Premiere Pro are chasing and winning projects with significantly bigger budgets than the agencies we see who use FCPX."

I would say that the two (budget and Premiere) have nothing to do with each other.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andy Field
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 4:21:38 pm

In Washington DC - most of this is a network TV perspective

Major Networks (NBC, ABC and I think still CBS) all on Avid...locals in Edius and Premiere

BBC in DC still using FCP 7! (because FCP 10 doesn't interface with their server for some reason but their field folks using FCP 10 ..and I'm told some premiere back in London

At ABC where I work - AVID in house - and a mix of FCP10 and Premiere in the field (frankly it doesn't matter...whatever is available that works fast and can upload or feed)

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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andy patterson
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 7:06:30 pm

[Andy Field] "Major Networks (NBC, ABC and I think still CBS) all on Avid...locals in Edius and Premiere"

I used to use Edius.


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Shane Ross
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 9:43:17 pm

Broadcast TV...documentary and scripted. Still see about 85% Avid. I have seen ONE place still using FCP 7 (editor won't let go). I work extensively with another company that's FCX all the way. And then the rest has Premiere creeping in..I'd say about 10-14% of places I know about are going Premiere, with a LOT of others going back to Avid. Where FCP 7 was, Avid is coming back, or a shift is going to Premiere (mostly)...with the exception of a couple places using FCX.

But again, I'm in the lowly broadcast market that is smaller than the rest of places where you see video. MANY MANY web companies are pretty solid Premiere. Buzzfeed, etc. FCX has a small foothold, but isn't gaining ground like some might think and hope. Not without trying, for sure.

So...with the HUGE rumbles about Whiskey Tango Foxtrot and Focus being cut with FCX...anyone hear about any other majors? Premiere was touted for DEADPOOL and 6 Below...any others more recent? Not hearing a lot of PR buzz like we did before...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 10:08:26 pm

This is a peripheral comment - not one about facilities since the ONLY guys I correspond with regularly are all in FCP X shops and therefore my empirical knowledge is totally skewed and therefore useless.

That said, one thing I DO see is another HUGE rise in what I'll call a bunker mentality.

It really seems like people are trying NOT to stick their necks out AT ALL because global business seems HUGELY unsure of which way the winds will blow in the coming few years.

Part of that IMO is the result of recent elections where a "lets go back to when it was easier" mentality showed up lots of polling places worldwide.

The unease out there is palpable. It's really hard to find organizations saying "lets put out a bunch of money for innovation right now." They're in bunker mode. Trying to make whatever they already have - do ALL the work they need to do.

It's going to take BOLD new thinking - something that's clearly and decisively a better play - to make people move off their current positions.

As a result - it wouldn't surprise me to see the adoption ratios we have right now - reflected almost precisely for the coming few years. It's going to take some larger disruption to move the needle in such a "small c" conservative environment.

And when the dams eventually break - the hardware, software, and even the "what IS an NLE anymore" thinking environment may be VERY different than what we see today. Only time will tell.

My 2 cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 11:04:36 pm

Not all roads lead to FCX, Bill. FCX isn't the ULTIMATE NLE that is the future...and the mentality that unless people embrace risk and jump on FCX they will stagnate...that FCX is the only NLE that's forward thinking....is wrong.

Again...I will state...ONE NLE is not the solution to everything. It won't be perfect for everyone and every situation. Many areas of post have VERY different needs, needs that FCX can't solve. Others have needs that Avid never will solve and is the worst choice. There are dozens of different delivery needs and processes in the vast world of video, and one NLE cannot conquer them all. FCX is absolutely wrong for so many situations. And Avid is absolutely wrong for others. PPro, Edius...the same. Avid is progressing and addressing the needs of the people and workflows it serves. Yes, it is held back by a few carmudgeons that hate change, but it also needs to change to meet current cameras and current workflows. And it is. As is Premiere.

It works...it works well...so why jump to FCX when there is no need? It isn't "we don't want to embrace the future," it's "what tool works best for my given situation."

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 11:36:34 pm

Although BMD is working hard to create the "one NLE to rule them all". Ironically I see some newbie users for whom the Resolve UI and workflow makes far more sense than X. Maybe tracks and a clear delineation between audio and video is more logical for the majority of folks. Who knows? But as most of us know, one size definitely doesn't fit all.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 11:33:25 pm

The % of work flowing into my post finish studios is still FCP7 60%. Next is Premiere around 25%. Avid around 15% and X 10%. However I am seeing and hearing from many legend holdouts and some recent converts to Premiere that Resolve is where they are now looking. I have just pulled the old MacPro out of the rack and intend to sell it with the FCP Studio software before it is too late. Legend will crumble soon but not with people going to X in my world. X remains niche and only a few film maker friends use it exclusively. So that is the state of NLEs for docos in the antipodes. The serious interest in Resolve since the beta release of 14 at NAB is the trend to watch.

I had an interesting Skype session with Paul Saccone from Blackmagic yesterday as part of an article I am writing about the marriage of Resolve and Fairlight. He said that Blackmagic's philosophy is to have an eco system where a single tool can obviate the need for translation between different software. So the idea is that editors, graders and sound post can all work within the one tool and collaboratively. This suits the needs of the bunker mentality sole maker who shoot, edit, grade and mix their shows. The big facilities can use the collaborative workflows of having separate users log in to a project and take control of grade or Fairlight pages while the editor can be making trims. The send/return to Fusion also means that a single software environment can complete post without needing to translate between other NLE, DAW and VFX software.

At the same time they will be totally supporting interchange with other NLEs. I think this is going to be very significant. They are under no illusions they are catching up on the NLE front but they are catching up fast. The 14 release is the biggest fundamental change they have ever done with a total re coding of the engine with huge speed increases. With Fairlight they have also introduced audio clip stacking to picture editors and I can tell you there will be some raised eybrows when editors start to realise the elegance and power of audio manipulation that us sound post people have been trumpeting for years.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 11:43:16 pm

The interesting thing with Resolve is that they are also going after the big guys. I can't mention names, but some heavyweight film editors are having their assistants put it through the paces in the hope that it might be ready for their next large film editorial project. Paul was at Apple during FCP's push into large facilities, so he knows what it takes.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 11:49:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Paul was at Apple during FCP's push into large facilities, so he knows what it takes."

Yes BMD are up for it and with people who clearly know what they are doing. It will be interesting in a year to see where the % stand. And you are right that one size doesn't fit all but BMD will continue to support and develop interchange between systems. Within the Fairlight software team they inherited are some interchange geniuses who coded AVTransfer. Fairlight will turn out to be a bonanza for BMD.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 12:20:25 am

[Michael Gissing] " So the idea is that editors, graders and sound post can all work within the one tool and collaboratively. "

The old Final Cut suite and the current Adobe suite have a similar philosophy, yet a less elegant solution (sending to other apps in the suite vs doing everything inside one app). The sticking point, of course, is that you have to have offline editors, online editors, gfx/vfx, and audio all wanting and willing to work in the same program.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 12:41:24 am

The Resolve collaboration is based on the ability to lock parts of a project so multiple users are working within the one project and changes are flagged to the other users to update. It has the capacity to rival Avid and Adobe with true multi users within single project. The fact that the tasks are organised on pages means that the editor may never need the grade page and the sound post people never have to worry about ugly reconforms for versioning.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 1:43:42 am

[Michael Gissing] "The Resolve collaboration is based on the ability to lock parts of a project so multiple users are working within the one project and changes are flagged to the other users to update. It has the capacity to rival Avid and Adobe with true multi users within single project. The fact that the tasks are organised on pages means that the editor may never need the grade page and the sound post people never have to worry about ugly reconforms for versioning."

I've only seen videos of Adobe and Resolves collaboration ability, but none of them have made me excited about their implementation. And Adobe needing a conflict resolution feature just throws up a red flag for me. I'd love to get actual time on them and put them through their paces.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 2:11:36 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I've only seen videos of Adobe and Resolves collaboration ability, but none of them have made me excited about their implementation. "

Neither feature works like Avid. AFAIK, with Resolve you can't have two people editing at the same time in the same project. You could have an editor, colorist, and mixer all working at the same time on one sequence. With Adobe, there's only collaboration through Team projects. The project has to live in the cloud with multiple access. Multiple editors can make changes in their own temp copy of the project, and then changes have to be reconciled to the master project in the cloud. Sort of a check-out/check-in/reconcile system.

Avid allows different Bins within a project to be open and modified by various editors. So, FCPX could, in theory, adopt a similar approach by having multiple editors work in different Events within the same Library. I'm not sure what the technical hurdles would be, but the concept is simple in design.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 2:32:57 am

I was told yesterday that Resolve collaboration has bin locking. Not sure how that is implemented and if that allows for multiple editors on the one timeline but I am pretty sure multiple editors in the one project is possible. I'm looking forward to loading 14Beta5 when I finish a feature doco soon.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 6, 2017 at 11:36:51 pm

[Bill Davis] "Part of that IMO is the result of recent elections where a "lets go back to when it was easier" mentality showed up lots of polling places worldwide.
"


I don't follow how recent elections have impact adoption rates over the previous six years.

[Bill Davis] "And when the dams eventually break - the hardware, software, and even the "what IS an NLE anymore" thinking environment may be VERY different than what we see today. Only time will tell. "

Which dams are you still waiting to break? To me, dams all over busted wide open starting with the DV Revolution in the late '90s/early '00s. Follow through to today where most people in first world countries can shoot, edit and distribute videos without any extra out of pocket costs merely by using hardware and services that they already use in their day to day lives (smart phones, computers, Internet connections, etc.,). Speaking in generalities, I don't really see what barriers to entry are left standing. Now whether or not their videos will get views and/or generate meaningful revenue is a complete different question.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 10, 2017 at 5:33:57 am
Last Edited By Chris Harlan on Jul 10, 2017 at 5:52:43 am

Never mind. I see I was mistaken. My apologies.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 10:38:00 am

[Scott Witthaus] "I would say that the two (budget and Premiere) have nothing to do with each other."

I would have said that, too. That's why I put three caveats around the statement you quoted! But the correlation in my little sample is so strong, I'm curious if there's more at play here than coincidence. Is it just chance? Does NLE adoption skew strongly by age? Are some agencies more open to innovation because they're less averse to risk (the Bill hypothesis)?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 10:12:16 pm

[Walter Soyka] "re some agencies more open to innovation because they're less averse to risk (the Bill hypothesis)?"

Just for the record NONE of my hypothicies regarding X Involve risk aversion - in myself or anyone else.

Its not about risk for me - it's about my being happy.

Innovation is interesting.

For its many flaws and imperfections - X has attempted to let me do things I simply couldn't do before I started using it. I enjoy that.

If you have found a bunch of innovation and delight in AVID or Premiere or Resolve - by all means go there.

I just haven't. I keep asking other NLE drivers. "What excites you about this compared to where you were before" - and the typical response is crickets."

If you are fine with what you use - be that.

But it seems like there isn't a bunch of "fine" out there. There's a boatload of snippy angst and anger.

Oh well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 11:05:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "X has attempted to let me do things I simply couldn't do before I started using it."

Care to go into more depth? I'm just curious, because X has let me do things in a different way, but not really anything I couldn't do before or with another tool.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 9, 2017 at 2:13:24 am

Never could attach a range to a clip - and call it up in a tenth of a second. Never could simply grab one clip on my primary move it to a new location and then instantly hit PLAY and expect a viewable result. I couldn't automate 10 export mixes into a single launch Roles driven export. Couldn't see an index of everything on my storyline and search and sort in it for clip type classes. Couldn't batch select 100 titles because of that and shorten JUST them by 5 frames each - automatically. I could go on.

Feel free to describe some similar aspects of Premiere Pro or AVID that have driven similar Changes into those workflows and and that aren't something that the prior versions of those apps could do at all.

I'm sure there has been innovation in those tools. So here's their adherents chance to point out their cool new features!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 9, 2017 at 12:40:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "Never could attach a range to a clip - and call it up in a tenth of a second. Never could simply grab one clip on my primary move it to a new location and then instantly hit PLAY and expect a viewable result. I couldn't automate 10 export mixes into a single launch Roles driven export. Couldn't see an index of everything on my storyline and search and sort in it for clip type classes. Couldn't batch select 100 titles because of that and shorten JUST them by 5 frames each - automatically. I could go on. "

Gotcha. Some of these are possible at least in Premiere Pro. Please describe the role-based batch exports. I don't fully understand that. I certainly can't do a standard batch export in X like I can in Premiere, so I'm curious what you mean. And was that there in the .0 version?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 9, 2017 at 2:26:30 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jul 9, 2017 at 2:56:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "So here's their adherents chance to point out their cool new features!
"


OK, here's one from Premiere that I think is pretty cool.

Whereas in FCP X if a clip has been used it is simply marked with a Used flag that doesn't count how many times or where it has been used, in Premiere you can see not only how many times a clip has been used, but you also have a list of TCs for where each occurrence takes place (across all sequences in the project) that allows you to jump directly to each location.



Now there's metadata for you.

It's easy to miss the innovative features in Premiere if you assume they aren't there.

Edit: I'm not an "adherent" - I just like interesting stuff wherever I come across it.

If you look at the much broader picture, you'd have to say that Adobe was one of the companies doing the most to drive cutting edge innovation in the AV space. Not all of it immediately finds its way into the commercial products but there is no denying that extreme technological innovation is happening at Adobe all the time. Much of it is quite literally jaw-dropping, in the good sense.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 9, 2017 at 4:03:07 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Whereas in FCP X if a clip has been used it is simply marked with a Used flag that doesn't count how many times or where it has been used, in Premiere you can see not only how many times a clip has been used, but you also have a list of TCs for where each occurrence takes place (across all sequences in the project) that allows you to jump directly to each location."

I will admit, this is a fantastic feature in Pr. Something I would use a lot in FCPX to make sure each spot has the latest renders, updated VO, or whatever. This would be much easier than going through each Project one by one.

And true, there's some great technology at Adobe, but that UI is built for a time when there was more time to do things like click a mouse six times to add a clip to the timeline.

I say that colloquially and with exaggeration, but there is some truth in there.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 10, 2017 at 8:20:34 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I say that colloquially and with exaggeration"

It does none of us any harm to get in touch with our inner Bill from time to time and just let rip 😉

Another "cool feature" that I know I have banged on about in the past but make no excuses for returning to here is Premiere's Group function, which allows you to assemble any clips in the timeline (whether contiguous or not, whether audio or video or both) into a single unit that can be manipulated as though it were a single clip.

It's hard to convey how useful and widely applicable this is until you really start getting into the groove of using it and then you'll find yourself really missing it when you move to another application.

Sometimes the very best ideas are those that look innocuously simple and this is one of those. Like so many things you really do have to immerse yourself in all the different ways you can use it to appreciate how powerful it is.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 11, 2017 at 6:05:31 am

Outstanding. Noted as a great new feature.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 11, 2017 at 7:40:07 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "If you look at the much broader picture, you'd have to say that Adobe was one of the companies doing the most to drive cutting edge innovation in the AV space. Not all of it immediately finds its way into the commercial products but there is no denying that extreme technological innovation is happening at Adobe all the time. Much of it is quite literally jaw-dropping, in the good sense."

I always say FCPX did not invented metadata. I did a video about this feature back in 2014. I did it to state that Premiere Pro does not have a Timeline Index like FCPX but you can find titles, video clips, audio clips and images in the timeline real easy. I also made a feature request for Adobe abut this feature since it is not 100% perfect as is. Having said that BMD added my marker request for Premiere Pro to DR.







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Walter Soyka
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 10:45:25 am

[Bill Davis] "Just for the record NONE of my hypothicies regarding X Involve risk aversion - in myself or anyone else."

My apologies for putting words into your mouth!

For me, risk goes hand in hand with innovation, so now I'm curious to understand your position better. I have to confess, I don't understand this post as well as I thought before:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/96524#96583

How should I read "bunker mentality" and "trying not to stick their necks out" if not risk aversion?

(And for what it's worth, I'd say the biggest risk of all is not taking any risks.)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 9, 2017 at 1:57:07 am

Walter,

I said "bunker mode" referring to how the businesses I have the most contact with are largely NOT in "expansion mode" - they at best are in "operational efficiency " mode.

They are willing to spend a bit. But not for grand new initiatives.

This is very different than business climates I've experienced in the past where money was a LOT looser and more companies were after market share and expansion through robust investment.

Retail is flat. Business to business seems flat. Only a small number of industries are expanding and those that are are seem to be hiring one body and expecting them to do the work of six.

Bunker mode also refers to people in general staying behind their office walls and not scouting as much. Maybe that's a natural result of the on-line shift, but industry related local social groups are all pretty fallow really. The local computer groups, the Chambers of Commerce, the artists, designers and writers don't gather like they used to. We Cyber comnnect (as we are doing right here, right now) but that used to be in personmonthly in most larger cities - and it's kinda dead now.

Oh well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 1:34:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "If you have found a bunch of innovation and delight in AVID or Premiere or Resolve - by all means go there.

I just haven't."


When have you tried out Premiere or Resolve? And if you haven't then how would you know how much innovation or delight is to be found there?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Tony West
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 5:29:44 am

To me it just seems impossible to ignore where the trend is going in our biz, and it's to one person productions.

Production houses all over are closing left and right. The cost to do production has falling through the floor and it's hard for a large production house to compete with a person working out of their home with almost no overhead.

People keep looking at job posting but that's old school. It's one person saying I can write, shoot and cut that thing all for one cheap price. In some cases it looks terrible and in some it looks really good. That's it.

I know with NETFlix and others there is more high quality production than ever, but none of those shows are being shot in my town.

Another thing I see (and I know I'm not the only one) are people who have worked in the biz for 20 years that never owned a NLE and bought X because it cost 300 bucks. They may be a full time shooters or editor or both. They had iMovie for free on their computers and when they needed it they used it. X came along and offered them more bang for the buck and for that price they couldn't justify not buying it. I think if X cost 800.00 90% of them wouldn't own it.

I can't tell you how many people I know who fit this description.

Production houses that stayed afloat went with Pr mostly, but people who never owned anything went with X


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 3:03:27 pm

[Tony West] "To me it just seems impossible to ignore where the trend is going in our biz, and it's to one person productions.
.
.
.
I know with NETFlix and others there is more high quality production than ever, but none of those shows are being shot in my town."


I think that's the crux of the topic in that 'industry trends' depend a lot on geographical local and which segment of the industry is being discussed. Not much scripted film/TV in St. Louis, but there has been a growing amount of it in Atlanta and New Orleans thanks to tax incentives. Studios are even building sound stages in Atlanta (I don't think it's stable over the long term because of the aforementioned tax incentives, but that's another discussion...).

There are solo practitioners on YouTube that kill it with a webcam and a white wall, but there are also enough that want to go bigger that YouTube built it's own production studios in nine major cities across the globe. The YouTube Space in LA was so booked up late last year that when I worked on a show produced by YouTube itself we couldn't even use their facilities. They had to rent an off-campus office space and broadcast studio for us to work out of.

I agree that there are probably more one person productions happening now than ever before, but I think the industry is, as a whole, is expanding so it's not a zero sum situation. It's also cheaper now than ever before to run a multi-person production company or in-house video team so a new unit starting up won't be saddled by the same overhead (film scanners, tape decks, tape stock, video-specific routers, cabling, broadcast monitors, etc.,) that a older production company might have had.

Sure, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc., are the big name streaming contenders battling it out with more established cable and broadcast entities for legitimacy at the top, but down market from that we have companies like Yahoo, YouTube, Verizon, WWE, UFC, Vox, Viceland, DirecTV, Ski Channel, Riot Games (League of Legends), Rockstar Games (GTA series), Mattel (toys), Fabletics (clothing), PopSugar, Blizzard (WarCraft), Maker Studios, Ars Technica, The Verge, etc., all producing more and more video content in house. And at least in LA and NYC there seem to be a lot of new boutique facilities popping up headed by 30-somethings that create media content targeted at teens and 20-somethings. That reminds me, a few years ago I worked on a pretty cool web series and out of maybe a dozen post and production crew members (including producers) I think I was the only crew member over thirty.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 7, 2017 at 4:11:28 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " but down market from that we have companies like Yahoo, YouTube, Verizon, WWE, UFC, Vox, Viceland, DirecTV, Ski Channel, Riot Games (League of Legends), Rockstar Games (GTA series), Mattel (toys), Fabletics (clothing), PopSugar, Blizzard (WarCraft), Maker Studios, Ars Technica, The Verge, etc., all producing more and more video content in house."

Not to mention all the distribution channels on cable and OTT systems with tons of DIY and reality shows. This is content being produced by lots of small to medium sized shops. Not one-man bands. And that's growing.

Part of the key to that growth is the ease with which you can now dress out additional edit suites and set up a core shared storage facility. Getting back to the heart of that question, which NLE makes it easiest to set up companies like that, which can ramp up quickly when needed?

Just like large facilities, compatibility and industry standards are important. That's one reason Avid has actually seen growth. It's also why the subscription model is picking up steam.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 12:02:26 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Not much scripted film/TV in St. Louis,"

Or in most states in our country.

[Andrew Kimery] "Studios are even building sound stages in Atlanta"

Those are likely the same jobs that would have been in LA or NY. They are not just looking for tax incentives down there but also that healthy anti union lower wage workforce. A trend that's not new. It's the south.

Here is an article by a person that has done a great deal more research into the topic than I have but our conclusions are pretty much the same.

Creative Industry Production Trends 2017
https://www.movidiam.com/blog/630/creative-industry-production-trends-2017

"BRANDS: Large brands such as Unilever, Starbucks and BMW have already set up in-house production capabilities"

****"bypassing both the agencies and production companies by going direct to freelancers."****

"PRODUCTION COMPANIES: 2016 was a tough year for most production companies. With agencies moving production to an in-house model and many freelance producers now more than capable of building their own teams and offering similar services"

'A lot of production companies, especially in TV, have dramatically reduced their operational overheads and staff. A core team of producers are now hiring freelancers on a project-by-project basis."


"FREELANCERS: Freelancers were the big winners in 2016."

*** "Freelance workforce: We’ll all soon be freelance" ***

I didn't really need to read this guy's article to know this. It's been what I have seen for a while now. I have friends that left StL to move to New Orleans for work so I know about that personally. I don't just work in St. Louis, I'm a freelancer and I travel all over the country (not the world like this guy) working and speaking with friends in different markets.
My brother works in LA.

Not saying that we won't be working, I'm not getting less work, it's just changing in the way work is handed out.

It's an interesting article.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 1:57:46 pm

[Tony West] "Those are likely the same jobs that would have been in LA or NY. "

I don't think that's completely true. I lived through the whole "Hollywood East" era in Florida. Other than above-the-line folks and key actors, the bulk of the production and post crew was local. But yes, folks do move around and as a result, many of those Florida folks moved up to Atlanta to follow the growth there.

However, look at the various companies creating content for HGTV, DIY, etc. These are a healthy mix of LA and non-LA companies. So show production is happening all over and not just NYC or LA.

[Tony West] "Here is an article by a person that has done a great deal more research into the topic than I have but our conclusions are pretty much the same.
Creative Industry Production Trends 2017"


A good article, however, not unbiased. He owns the service designed to place freelancers.

A key takeaway for me is that large organizations are hiring freelancers - not freelancers generating their own unique product. This would tend to reinforce a certain commonality of tools. If I'm XYZ agency bringing in 10 different editors to work in house at my shop, I'll want all of their project files to be compatible, so when the inevitable revisions are done by a different freelancer, there are no project translation issues.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 2:46:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So show production is happening all over and not just NYC or LA."

Yeah, I pointed that out.

[Oliver Peters] "A good article, however, not unbiased. He owns the service designed to place freelancers."

Good point, but I saw the trend before I saw his article. It's not just him.

[Oliver Peters] "A key takeaway for me is that large organizations are hiring freelancers - not freelancers generating their own unique product. "

The take away for me is that things are being scaled down to independent individuals with multi talents.

I see more producers generating their own products here by pitching TV shows that they will cut in their house but hire freelance folks to shoot.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 4:01:46 pm

[Tony West] "The take away for me is that things are being scaled down to independent individuals with multi talents."

That's nothing new. It's been going on for decades. The industry ebbs and flows. Back in the film days (50s, 60s, 70s), small production companies were made up of film shooters who usually cut their own stuff. Or they went to a freelance film editor. I'm talking about spots and corporate. With big iron video, facilities got big in the 70s, 80s, 90s. If anything we are back to something closer to the old film days.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 9, 2017 at 12:26:10 pm

[Oliver Peters] "That's nothing new. It's been going on for decades. "

What I'm talking about is very much new. A combination of price and technology has taken things to whole new level at a faster pace.

If a person has been in the biz for 20 years and never owned an NLE and now they do because it's so cheap that's a change. If it wasn't they would have owned one 20 years ago.

Decades ago a producer hired an editor. Now they are the editor.

The first edit suite I worked in cost a million dollars.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 9, 2017 at 3:07:56 pm

[Tony West] "What I'm talking about is very much new. A combination of price and technology has taken things to whole new level at a faster pace."

I see that same trend. Just not in quantity.

[Tony West] "Decades ago a producer hired an editor. Now they are the editor."

Not if they are a good producer ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 9, 2017 at 11:52:43 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Tony West] "Decades ago a producer hired an editor. Now they are the editor."

Not if they are a good producer ☺"


They may be really good. You would have to put your work against their work to judge : )


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 10, 2017 at 12:26:57 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jul 10, 2017 at 12:38:37 am

[Tony West] "They may be really good."

It's not a question of individual quality, but of objectivity. More voices make for better products. Good editors who become directors and producers often never cut their own material.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 10, 2017 at 1:52:22 am

[Oliver Peters] "It's not a question of individual quality, but of objectivity. "

Many times it's a question of money $$$$$.


[Oliver Peters] "Good editors who become directors and producers often never cut their own material."

This is an opinion


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 10, 2017 at 12:05:59 pm

[Tony West] "This is an opinion"

This whole forum is opinion! ☺

But, I was actually referring to examples like Martin Scorsese.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 11, 2017 at 2:58:51 pm

[Tony West] "Or in most states in our country. "

That's part of my point, geography plays a large role in what 'industry trends' people are seeing. IMO it's why talking about industry trends in broad strokes is difficult. Even in the same city, LA for example, the trends in the broadcast world won't necessarily mirror the trends in the new media/digital world, and those trends won't necessarily mirror what's happening in the corporate/event world.

I think the only real industry wide trend is that for the last 15-20yrs technological advancements have made gear more powerful and less expensive and self distribution is easier than ever. The ramifications of that trend aren't uniform though across the industry though.

[Tony West] "Those are likely the same jobs that would have been in LA or NY. They are not just looking for tax incentives down there but also that healthy anti union lower wage workforce. A trend that's not new. It's the south."

The possibility of lower wages might play a small role in it, but I think it's primarily the tax incentives. Wherever tax incentives pop up (Vancouver, Toronto, New Mexico, Michigan, Maryland, North Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana, New York, Los Angeles, etc.,) productions will follow. And once those tax incentives are no longer big enough then productions will leave for greener monetary pastures. Ex. North Carolina was hot until they capped/reduced their tax incentives, Los Angeles addressed it's 'run away productions' problem by boosting tax incentives, and House of Cards pitted Maryland against Virginia to see which one would pay the most for the privilege of having House of Cards shoot in their state.


Thanks for the link, Tony.

[Tony West] ""FREELANCERS: Freelancers were the big winners in 2016."

*** "Freelance workforce: We’ll all soon be freelance" ***

I didn't really need to read this guy's article to know this. It's been what I have seen for a while now. I"


In my experience this has been the status quo since I got into the industry in 2001. Maybe it's a big market norm that is continuing to filter across all markets? Even in my early years though, when I worked more production than post in Indiana, there really weren't many staff production jobs unless you worked for a local TV station. My gigs were mainly working as a temporary employee for a production company or for the in-house production wing of the client itself. Some companies even hired freelancers to work staff positions (aka permalance) because freelancers don't get all benefits that staff do (Viacom got major blowback over this about a decade ago).


[Tony West] ""BRANDS: Large brands such as Unilever, Starbucks and BMW have already set up in-house production capabilities"

****"bypassing both the agencies and production companies by going direct to freelancers."****"


Starbucks and BMW in his example, Mattel and Riot Games in mine. Multi-person productions are still happening (and happening more often than they used to in some areas), it's just that instead of the crew working for a production company that works for the client the crew is working for the client's in-house production company.


[Tony West] "The take away for me is that things are being scaled down to independent individuals with multi talents.

I see more producers generating their own products here by pitching TV shows that they will cut in their house but hire freelance folks to shoot."


I see all this as more of an expansion and growth of the visual story telling arena as opposed to one part replacing another. Movies didn't replace live theater, tv shows didn't replace movies, YouTube videos didn't replace TV shows... Is there disruption? Of course.

Again, I think it depends on geography and types of work being talked about. For example, in the past there used to be a bit more of a one-size-fits-all approach in that the cost, size, and complexity of the gear required a large capital investment so even small projects had to use this big, expensive gear because only big, expensive gear existed. Now there is obviously a much broader range of gear as well as a broader range of distribution options. I think a big struggle for some of the older, larger facilities is that many of them based their business model around being a gatekeeper to big, expensive gear and the requirement to use for big, expensive gear has been declining for the last 20yrs. A production might still need a large crew, but the capital investment in gear and dedicated workspaces (assuming dedicated workspaces are even required) is significantly reduced.


Related anecdote:
A while back I was occasionally filling in part time at a company (covering for people taking vacation, crunch times, etc.,) that kicked out a couple dozen Internet videos each day (lots of topical/timely stuff like current events, pop culture, sports, video games, etc.,). I'd guess their video department had 15-20 in it. After a while they were looking for a full time shooter/editor in one of their divisions I was interested in. I interviewed, but didn't get the job because while I have shot, I wasn't a shooter/editor (I'm just an editor). I continued to do fill in work for them and the stints started getting longer and longer (from a few days here and there to a week or two at a time). Then they started adding longer, more involved prestige/feature pieces to the mix and I would work on those for weeks at a time.

Finally one of the producers asked me if I was interested in editing full time with them. They had convinced the hirer-ups that having a good, full time editor would increase the quality as well as the quality of the videos getting out the door. They were trying to craft a team that better played to their strengths as opposed to stretching everyone too thin. The producer/editors got to spend more time producing, the shooter/editors got to spend more shooting, and I just got to cut.

With all that being said, I've obviously made a pointed effort to be more of a specialist and part of that is working in a part of the industry that can support specialists. If I moved to a small market then I'd probably have to dawn more hats out of necessity than I do now.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 11:39:58 am

Doing primarily medium to high-end TVC's, the odd music- or corporate video the main systems for editing would be Premiere Pro and AVID. Every so often we get FCPX edits but if I'd have to guess I'd say something like....

70% - Premiere Pro
20% - AVID
10% - FCPX

There is however in general a shocking poor technical understanding through out the industry. But I beilive Premiere Pro has taken over what FCP7 once was.

Internally we use primarily Premiere Pro / After Effects for editing and online-work with Resolve for color grading. We also have a Smoke / Nuke setup but that's for more pure VFX-work, given a lot is done in PP / AE / Resolve.

That said Premiere Pro has it's fair of issues. It's video engine compared to FCPX and Resolve feels aintient in some regards, amazing in others.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 1:39:46 pm

The company I mainly work with, in Boston, committed to Ppro about 3 years ago. It had one series that was cut on FCPX but that experiment has ended for the sake of conformity and easy access to freelance editors. Most of the cable network shows I know about in NYC are still cut with Avid with no sign of change at all.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Mark Raudonis
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 8, 2017 at 5:42:47 pm

My observation of the Reality TV genre here in Los Angeles is that it's 99% AVID.

Why? It's all about the shared storage and large team approach to editing. When you add up all of the
people needing access to the media, timelines, cuts, etc. you can easily have 50 people all playing in
the same pool. So, unless the other NLE's can offer an "as good as" or better large workgroup experience, this
fact alone keeps them from serious consideration in the Reality TV world.

Having said that, I'm very impressed with BM's Resolve 14 beta progress to date. They are addressing features and adding capabilities at a rate that makes your head spin.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 10, 2017 at 5:03:25 am
Last Edited By Chris Harlan on Jul 10, 2017 at 5:03:52 am

I'm in LA. I work mostly in Entertainment promotion. In "design houses", I'm seeing a lot of Premiere for social/promo work. In that environment there's a lot of crossover with AE, and CD's are comfortable in the CS space. Clients are generally more modern media like Netflix and Amazon, or studio social departments. These days, in that environment, I'm a little surprised if its not Premiere. "Promo houses" that have been established for awhile tend to remain Avid or even FCP 7, though Premiere is discussed and possibly making some ground. Cable Channel and Broadcast-wise, I'm still seeing a lot of Avid , but there have been some serious conversions to Premiere, and at least one major promo dept. has largely converted to FCP X. Networks and studios are largely Avid for on-air, and Premiere, more and more, for Social. I'm not sure how across the board that is, but its what I'm seeing.


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James Culbertson
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 12, 2017 at 6:17:46 am

I can only speak to certain corporate and educational facilities in the Seattle/Bellevue/Redmond area which I have found to be a mix of Premiere and FCP10. It's not monolithic in any particular corporation either as some groups (at a large Redmond corporation as one example) use Premiere and other groups use FCPX10 exclusively. Not much AVID, no FCP7, and no Resolve.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 13, 2017 at 6:00:17 pm

Seems relevant to this thread:

http://5thingsseries.com/the-truth-about-video-editing-software-in-hollywoo...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 13, 2017 at 11:07:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Seems relevant to this thread:

http://5thingsseries.com/the-truth-about-video-editing-software-in-hollywoo.....
"


Something I see come up often is how much a tool costs (this came up in the YouTube comments for Michael's video) but what doesn't seem to get brought up along side that is how much a tool earns. Is generating revenue so unimportant? 😉

For example, with how little FCP X work there is in my neck of the woods the fact that it's only $299 isn't very relevant because I'd be very hard pressed to find work using X compared to Avid or PPro. On the flip side, the money from my very first Premiere Pro gig 3.5yrs ago could keep my subscription active until I'm around 110 (assuming no price changes).


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James Culbertson
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 13, 2017 at 11:52:36 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Something I see come up often is how much a tool costs... but what doesn't seem to get brought up along side that is how much a tool earns. Is generating revenue so unimportant?"

Where is this place that pays you differently based on what editing tool you use? I keep hearing rumors of it, but where I come from (Seattle) editors (at least of my generation) get paid for their editing experience and sensibility. Some clients want me to use Premiere and some want me to use FCP10, but they all pay me my standard rate. I'm sure I would be paid the same if I were asked to use AVID.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 14, 2017 at 12:12:44 am

and then you see an article like this on fcp.co
http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1979-the-future-of-newsgathering-i...

and when you say "who will be using AVID, FCP X, Adobe Premiere, Resolve" - because with the exception of the hi end (oh, I guess we are the hi end) - it's a matter of "can't we hire some kid, and pay him nothing, and get this job done".
"Hey kid, do you own an iPhone - YOURE HIRED !". At some point, someone will go to Mark Raudonis (Mr. 99% AVID for reality TV), and say to him "listen Mark, AVID Schmavid, we need to reduce our labor costs, and these damn editors are just making TOO MUCH MONEY". The decision will be determined based on what the low priced labor knows how to use.

Anyway - in Florida - Premiere, FCP X, Resolve, AVID last place (except for TV stations).

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 14, 2017 at 12:23:04 am

[James Culbertson] "Where is this place that pays you differently based on what editing tool you use?"

Two fold. First off, I typically freelance for unscripted TV shows, documentaries, in-house production wings of large companies, and other similar situations where the post workflow is pre-established so I need to go with the flow (which in LA is either MC or PPro these days). Pretty much no one in my neck of the woods uses X (I've seen more jobs for Cantonese speaking editors than for editors to work using X).

Secondly, larger productions with larger budgets almost always use MC. You don't get paid more (or less) because of the NLE, you get paid more for working on a project with a bigger budget which most likely means you'll be using MC.


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James Culbertson
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 14, 2017 at 6:50:37 am

And up here in Seattle I worked for two years for a group at a large Redmond-based corporation with a huge budget that required I use FCP10 and it was an exceedingly profitable time for me. So, what I am trying to say is that how much you make isn't dependent upon what NLE you know. But you should know the NLE that is required, and that may or may not vary from group to group, or region to region.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 14, 2017 at 2:00:02 pm

[James Culbertson] "So, what I am trying to say is that how much you make isn't dependent upon what NLE you know. But you should know the NLE that is required, and that may or may not vary from group to group, or region to region."


Exactly my point. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my previous posts.


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Bob Woodhead
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 16, 2017 at 11:40:12 am

I am SO happy I get to choose which NLE I use. :D

"Constituo, ergo sum"

Bob Woodhead / Atlanta
CMX-Quantel-Avid-Premiere-FCPX-AFX-Crayola
"What a long strange trip it's been...."


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 16, 2017 at 3:27:29 pm

[Bob Woodhead] "I am SO happy I get to choose which NLE I use. :D"

Oddly enough over the past 17yrs there's only been two times I've been unhappy with the chosen NLE and both of those times I had a hand in choosing which NLE was used. 😄

The first was when I was fresh out of college and built my own PC for editing based on Premiere and the Matrox RT2500. I had used MC in college (well, technically Media Express), had barely touched FCP 1.0, and never owned a Mac. I was already a 'pc guy' so going with Premiere seemed the best and most cost effective route. Little did I know that in LA at the time you either used MC (for budgeted projects) or FCP (for lo/no budget projects). No one took you seriously if you used Premiere (which at the time had a rep for only being good for weddings and corporate videos). Looking back, trying to find a way to afford a Mac and FCP would've been much more difficult, but it also would've been a better use of my money.

The second time was a few years ago when I worked on a documentary with another editor. Long story short, we were debating between PPro and MC. It had a lot of stills that would need to be manipulated so we were leaning towards PPro because Avid's pretty kludgey in that regard, but we were only a very tight deadline and much more familiar with the ins and outs of Avid when turning over sound and picture to be finished out of house. In the end we went with the devil we knew (Avid), but in retrospect I think PPro would've been fine on the turnovers and it certainly would've been been a better cutting experience given all the stills we used. That project certainly leaned on PPro's strengths more than it leaned on Avid's strengths.


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andy patterson
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 16, 2017 at 7:22:25 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The first was when I was fresh out of college and built my own PC for editing based on Premiere and the Matrox RT2500."

I used to have the Matrox RT 2000, the Pinnacle Pro One, the Pinnacle DV 500 and the Canopus DV Storm. By 2003 Edius and Premiere could offer real-time editing without hardware. Now I just use an Intensity Shuttle and Premiere Pro.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Informal NLE poll
on Jul 16, 2017 at 11:20:53 pm

The RT2500 was the only I/O device I bought that offered hardware acceleration. I switched to FCP in 2001 or 2002 and used a Dazzle DV Bridge for a few years and later bought a JVC DVS2U (MiniDV/VHS combo deck).


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