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Is it just me?

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Steve Connor
Is it just me?
on Jun 30, 2017 at 12:37:16 pm

Or is this place a lot less fun that it used to be? Seems to be dominated by people that don't actually use or particularly like FCPX and those that do are increasingly not posting.


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Is it just me?
on Jun 30, 2017 at 2:32:02 pm

Sorry Steve. I wish I could be more fun. I DO like FCPX; the debate is over for me. I use it for mostly short pieces I make for fundraising, and web videos. But I have worked on a couple longer projects and still prefer it. As I noted, my son uses Premiere Pro (because he "has to" in order to stay current with New York filmmakers he's working with) ... and so I get to sit in and work with him on occasion. And each time, I find myself wishing I were doing such & so in FCPX.

I guess what I like most on the forum is when Bill or Oliver or Tony posts some new insight, a problem fix or a neat way of using X -- or a piece on someone out there who is using X for a cool project. Those are the posts that I am most interested in, they keep me going. As for the debate, it is over for me.

Doug D


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Is it just me?
on Jun 30, 2017 at 2:33:00 pm

And Charlie Austin, he always posts something cool! :-)

Doug D


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David Mathis
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 1:05:33 am

What about Andreas? 😉


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Tony West
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 12:16:23 pm

[David Mathis] "What about Andreas? 😉"

I miss his creative writing. Even though he was critical of X he did it in a witty way that I found amusing. He has talent.

To answer Simon's question, I would like to see X add the ability to make a DCP file.

Many filmmakers are trying to get to the big screen and you need that file for your film to play in theaters and also for your trailer to play ahead a big money feature films. (for those of us that are not cutting a big money feature film in X)


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 9:09:44 pm

I don't disagree and I would be very interested to see Apple add this, but maybe they are thinking that this is adequately covered by third parties, including open source solutions like:

https://www.opendcp.org/
https://dcpomatic.com/

It raises again the interesting question of how much Apple should be allowing third parties to fill the "gaps" or whether they should be spending time competing with existing solutions.

(For anyone who doesn't know about this, Adobe Media Encoder includes a free version of Wraptor which is great for making festival and other non-final distribution screeners directly off your Premiere timeline.)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Neil Goodman
Re: Is it just me?
on Jun 30, 2017 at 5:12:54 pm

[Steve Connor] "Or is this place a lot less fun that it used to be? Seems to be dominated by people that don't actually use or particularly like FCPX and those that do are increasingly not posting.

"


I think the debate has run its course. You either like it or don't, and your going to use it or not.

It can do everything the other nle's can do now, theres still some things missing like a mixer but thats all i can think of.

I think since we're 6 years into the 10 year development cycle it will intersting to see what happens in the next 4 years. Will apple start from scratch again at year 10? Doubt it. Will the next 4 years see it finally start to be used in major markets, who knows? Adaptation is still very slow in this neck of the woods. Whats going to be the thing that makes all the major networks and post houses switch over if ever?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jun 30, 2017 at 8:05:22 pm

[Neil Goodman] "Whats going to be the thing that makes all the major networks and post houses switch over if ever?"

It may not actually matter to Apple, and increasingly I suspect it doesn't, but that's probably the most important outstanding question.

I'd love to hear what others think about this. What sort of thing would convince you that FCP X is the way to go as against whatever you are currently using?

FCP X is amazing in so many ways but there are still some very obvious gaps. What are they for you? Or do you not see any gaps?

Where can Apple do better for you, whether you love FCP X or are still unsure whether it can deliver for you?

(I know what I think, but I've presumed too much recently on your collective patience.)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Neil Goodman
Re: Is it just me?
on Jun 30, 2017 at 10:41:09 pm

I agree in that I dont think it matters to Apple at all, but I think thats what it needs to get the validation from the people that balk at it now.

I work in one of the bigger trailer houses in LA and out of our 30+ editors when FCP X comes up in convo its like your speaking another language. People simply dont really know about it and dont care to know. All they heard was that in 2011 it wasnt up to snuff and thats all the majority needs to ignore it for ever. Keep in mind most editors arent online in discussion boards about editing.
I was at NBC before this gig. Same thing, no one wanted to know. What they use works fine. Why switch?

UNTIL - the place you work at suddenly adopts it, then you have no choice which is what I heard happened at a very small division at Sony who does mostly content pieces for features. The guys hated it at first and then came around eventually. Unfortuneatly that division doesnt exist any longer tho.

For me now the obvious gaps for a place like I work at are multi user workflows. I think on the surface a timeline stuck in ripple mode is scary for people, especially when things have to be to specific time. Of course this is easily overridden but on the surface its not as obvious. Other than that I think its pretty much ready for most workflows.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 7:28:00 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Jul 1, 2017 at 7:34:45 am

[Neil Goodman] "Unfortuneatly that division doesnt exist any longer tho. "

Huh? Sony Worldwide Creative Content division definitely still exists. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Neil Goodman
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 2:20:02 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Neil Goodman] "Unfortuneatly that division doesnt exist any longer tho. "

Huh? Sony Worldwide Creative Content division definitely still exists. ☺
"


Huh, my bad - Friends I had working there told me the whole team was layed off.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 3:47:43 pm

[Neil Goodman] "Friends I had working there told me the whole team was layed off."

Was he at Torch? Maybe they're gone. I'll ask.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 4:05:49 am

[Steve Connor] "Or is this place a lot less fun that it used to be? Seems to be dominated by people that don't actually use or particularly like FCPX and those that do are increasingly not posting."

I find that comment very strange. I see people bad mouth Premiere Pro for having old laggy code base, a cringe worthy GUI, and antiquated titling system. I don't see people badmouthing FCPX in the same way. I see Premiere Pro users say FCPX is a good program but I don't see a lot of the FCPX users saying Premiere Pro is a good program. I know someone posted about the awesome render times of FCPX and I had to educate everyone about Intel's Quick Sync. There were programs for the PC that used Intel's Quick sync before FCPX used it. What can I say I was not that impressed that Apple wrote code for Intel's Quick Sync. Now that people are hip to Intels' Quick Snyc they are worried that the Xeon CPU of the iMac Pro may not make use of Intel's Qucik Sync since Xeon based CPUs usually don't have that feature. I don't think there are a lot of people that hate on FCPX. I think the problem is that to many people want to glorify FCPX when it is not needed. I also think some of the FCPX users want to badmouth Avid and Premiere Pro when ever possible. Having said that don't confuse honest criticisms of a product as hating on the product.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 2:03:38 pm

If you read the history of this forum before you arrived, you'll find a lot of people have criticized FCPX baselessly. You'll also find discussion around Quick Sync and Liquid and a great many other topics.

I love reading about people's workflows, I love discussing the emerging trends and technologies that affect our industry, and I love discussing the theory behind how and why we do what we do. Not every thread needs to rehash this tired NLE platform war.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 5:18:31 pm

I agree the platform wars are essentially over. But this forum is a great place to learn about the different philosophies and workflows employed by various editors. The recent discussion between sculpting and bricklaying editing was a classic. Hopefully it will stay an active forum without the propulsion of arguing over FCPX vs PP vs Avid, etc, although there is still room for that as well.


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 1, 2017 at 6:32:46 pm

Or is this place a lot less fun that it used to be? Seems to be dominated by people that don't actually use or particularly like FCPX and those that do are increasingly not posting.

[Walter Soyka] "If you read the history of this forum before you arrived, you'll find a lot of people have criticized FCPX baselessly. You'll also find discussion around Quick Sync and Liquid and a great many other topics."

The original post was talking about things as of now not in the past. I cannot comment about the past.

[Walter Soyka] "I love reading about people's workflows, I love discussing the emerging trends and technologies that affect our industry, and I love discussing the theory behind how and why we do what we do. Not every thread needs to rehash this tired NLE platform war."

I agree that there is no need to have NLE wars. I like discussing new technologies but I think some FCPX users want to live in an imaginary world where Apple invented Keyword Collections, favorites, background rendering, 64 BIT, GPU Acceleration etc. I cannot give Apple credit when it is not warranted. I am very impressed with what BMD has done with DR. Having said that Premiere's upgrade at NAB was kind of weak in my opinion.


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Tony West
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 2, 2017 at 11:08:03 am

[andy patterson] "The original post was talking about things as of now not in the past."


[andy patterson] "it used to be"

"it used to be" is a comparison of the past and present. So he is talking about the past, as it compares to the present.



[andy patterson] "I cannot comment about the past. "

Well you actually could (with more accuracy), if you followed his instructions here.........

[andy patterson] "[Walter Soyka] "If you read the history of this forum before you arrived,"


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 2, 2017 at 6:57:32 pm

[Tony West] "[andy patterson] "The original post was talking about things as of now not in the past."


[andy patterson] "it used to be"

"it used to be" is a comparison of the past and present. So he is talking about the past, as it compares to the present.



[andy patterson] "I cannot comment about the past. "

Well you actually could (with more accuracy), if you followed his instructions here.........

[andy patterson] "[Walter Soyka] "If you read the history of this forum before you arrived,""


?

I am not worried about the past nor do I care. If things have change it is probably for the best. I want to help out in the Premiere Pro forums when I can a then hangout in this forum to find out what the competition has to offer. Like I said DR is really looking good while Premiere Pro had a mediocre upgrade at NAB 2017.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 3, 2017 at 5:29:34 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Jul 3, 2017 at 5:29:58 pm

[Steve Connor] "Or is this place a lot less fun that it used to be?"

It's not just you.

- RK


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 3, 2017 at 8:37:30 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "It's not just you."

Agreed. Sadly I have started going to other sources for answers to real NLE questions as I want to avoid the "static" on this site. Still entertaining, but much less informative. My humble opinion only.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 3, 2017 at 9:04:19 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jul 3, 2017 at 9:06:45 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "I want to avoid the "static" on this site"

What constitutes static and what is signal for you?

For me the static, the spin-off conversations about anything and everything, are every bit as fascinating as those that are exclusively FCP X-focused.

But maybe that's because I'm an arch creator of static, for which I can only apologise.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 3, 2017 at 9:07:25 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "For me the static, the spin-of conversations about anything and everything, are every bit as fascinating"

No apologies needed. I still contribute here and love a good debate, but when I need real answers, I go to other sources (and it might be another COW forum). Nor harm, no foul. I just feel the signal to noise ratio is leaning more towards noise.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 3, 2017 at 9:42:34 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Agreed. Sadly I have started going to other sources for answers to real NLE questions as I want to avoid the "static" on this site. "

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'real NLE questions', but aren't the program-specific forums on the COW the best place to ask those questions? Where as this specific forum is designed for, well, debates?


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Tim Wilson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 3, 2017 at 9:53:47 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'real NLE questions', but aren't the program-specific forums on the COW the best place to ask those questions? Where as this specific forum is designed for, well, debates?"

Yes, please, for the love of all things holy, NOBODY should come to THIS forum expecting to find answers. We have over 200 forums for troubleshooting, such as the Apple Final Cut Pro X forum, also linked at the top of the page.

This is one of only of a couple of forums at Creative COW for troublemaking 😂

I love it for what it is, and feel that we've had some particularly energizing conversations of late, but I would be truly distressed if anybody was under the impression that the goal here is anything resembling product or technology support.

Tim Wilson
Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 4:06:12 pm

[Tim Wilson] " but I would be truly distressed if anybody was under the impression that the goal here is anything resembling product or technology support"

One would think that a group of professionals might offer up some insight. And putting the FCPX name on it skews it a bit. There is no longer a debate over X. Period But it's your COW, to do as you wish! This forum has been great in that I now have a list of folks to contact direct.

Like I said, I enjoy the banter but go elsewhere for answers. As I said to Andrew, I get better Premiere answers here than over at the Premiere basics forum. So if I want them, I put up with the static...just my humble opine and mine only.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Steve Connor
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 4:52:33 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "And putting the FCPX name on it skews it a bit. "

Agree, it's NLE debates now


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 6:22:22 pm

[Scott Witthaus] " As I said to Andrew, I get better Premiere answers here than over at the Premiere basics forum. So if I want them, I put up with the static...just my humble opine and mine only."

I don't doubt you can get answers for Premiere Pro in this forum but overall there is much more questions and answers for Premiere Pro in the actual Premiere Pro forum. If you ask questions in the Premiere Pro forum I imagine your questions would get answers.


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Tom Sefton
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 6:51:06 pm

Went back to dip our toes in the premiere water for a project recently and had some major issues with import, export and performance. Tried the Adobe forums, the premiere forums on the Cow and got no answers. Adobe tech support was woeful - was even told that a 2TB library of rushes was too large and to reduce it down because premiere wouldn't support it, or we could edit half the sequence in each project and join them together at the end. I've really not experienced good tech support for premiere pro.

The main thing that was impressive was the speed and efficiency of dynamic link.

Back to fcpx!

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 8:15:20 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Went back to dip our toes in the premiere water for a project recently and had some major issues with import, export and performance. "

I don't doubt you had real issues, and I'm sorry to hear that.

What were the specifics of your problems?

In my experience the kind of thing you are talking about suggests system issues rather than grave malfunctioning of the application.

Of course, you could be right and Premiere Pro just fundamentally "doesn't work", but it would be reasonable to expect more evidence before arriving at that conclusion.

FCP X is unpleasantly sluggish on my current work system configuration but I appreciate that there are compatibility reasons for this. I have optimised my system for a range of applications and it doesn't suit FCP X. But I don't for that reason suggest that FCP X itself has performance issues.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 8:45:47 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "In my experience the kind of thing you are talking about suggests system issues rather than grave malfunctioning of the application."

I have found bugs on the Windows side but it seems there are more bugs with OS X. For some of the issues OS X was to blame not Premiere Pro.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 9:10:27 pm

I'm talking about specific system installation issues/conflicts rather than the choice of OS.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Tom Sefton
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 8:53:32 pm

The project was a series of short films for a public body which we filmed at 8K and 6K on the Red epic-w and epic dragon. We also had 2k proxy files from the camera which we started the edit with, whilst also mixing some footage on the timeline to get an idea of what we could reframe with the added resolution. We also had various music files and external audio to sync.

All the footage was stored on gtech studio xl raids that had plenty of space, and we were editing on Mac Pro 2013s - either 6 or 8 core with 32 or 64GB of ram and max GPU.

The first problem we encountered was a complete slowdown in performance when importing new assets - even jpeg or tiff files caused a beachball which lasted for 10 minutes. Each time the project was opened it took around 25 minutes to organise the media and assets, during which time performance was very sluggish and impossible to work with.

This was when tech support from Adobe suggested we reduce the size of the library which was impossible if we wanted to deliver from the 8K raw files. So if we wanted to carry on we had to work from only 2K proxies from the camera - not a huge problem to get the cut signed off but still - added a large layer of complexity to what should have been simple workflow as we had to use resolve to finish.

The major issue was that when we tried to export an assembly edit from the timeline to help us start vfx for some of the scenes, Adobe media encoder encountered hard crashes when exporting. Not just software hangs, entire system crashes that happened occasionally. This could have been the 8K raw files, but the crashes were occurring at random places during the export which meant we couldn't narrow down the problem, and because the project wouldn't import new assets without hours of beachballs due to its size, we couldn't use Redcine x or resolve to create 4K final assets to work from.

So all in all we found it hard to move forwards and couldn't believe that the advice from Adobe tech support was to edit short sequences separately, export and then relink on a longer timeline. Fcpx has handled projects 3-4 times as large as this in the past so we didn't have the best introduction back to premiere. I'd never rule out using it again but it just hasnt been as easy or to be honest, as fun as it is working in fcpx.

That said, the ease of integration between after effects and audition for a 5.1 sound mix was fantastic and I doubt that we could have delivered some of the motion tracking and compositing scenes as quickly and efficiently with fcpx, but I'd love to be shown how! If we could optimise our systems to work faster and better with Adobe I would really appreciate the advice on how to do this - without going anywhere near a platform switch argument.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 9:00:30 pm

Thanks for the very detailed reply.

It sounds as though Adobe tech support really let you down badly there, but name me an NLE that has good tech support these days!

Were you using any plug-ins? These frequently cause conflicts that are tricky to diagnose.

Overall your experience, while incredibly frustrating, sounds atypical.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Tom Sefton
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 9:12:51 pm

To be honest, the only plugins that were used for this project were lumetri- which is now part of adobe's stock plugins, and then izotope RX6 in audition.

Yes - I can believe that tech support for everyone isn't great, but in the past I've had such good experiences from fcpx that I've been spoilt. A couple of times I've had days and days shaved off a workflow from advice on here, and another time I've ended up speaking to someone from Apple.

I'm sure there are ways to optimise premiere and I'm happy to take advice on how we could improve our experiences.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 9:21:27 pm

[Tom Sefton] "To be honest, the only plugins that were used for this project were lumetri- which is now part of adobe's stock plugins, and then izotope RX6 in audition.
"


Out of curiosity was Izotope used at all inside PPro itself? I've had major performance problems when using a lot of RX6 inside PPro, and when I contacted Izotope they basically said I shouldn't do that. I should apply the filter(s), export the clip(s) as new media then cut that new media back into my timeline.


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Tom Sefton
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 9:24:24 pm

Interesting.

We only used it in audition from memory, but we used dynamic link to get the comp from premiere into audition and then exported a finished 5.1 wav from audition.

I'll remember that though - thanks for the tip.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 9:38:18 pm

[Tom Sefton] "we used dynamic link"

I asked Walter Soyka a while back what he thought dynamic link was good for and he said:

NAB demos?

I don't use dynamic link much for anything other than text templates or relatively simple custom transitions. For moderate to heavy comps, or for a project that needs to be shared with others, I generally want real media files on disk to avoid any potential headaches.


Although that sounds cynical, I think it's probably good advice in the long run. I wonder if part of your problem stems from this?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Tom Sefton
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 9:40:19 pm

No - the problems we saw occurred long before we started the vfx shots.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 5, 2017 at 7:15:52 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Overall your experience, while incredibly frustrating, sounds atypical."

Not in my experience.

I just a couple of weeks ago I FINALLY got untangled from the Adobe Subscription mess I've been in for the past few years. It took me three additional phone sessions over the past 1.5 months.

I had to make two calls and then unscribe the week prior to my anniversary date for one of my phantom subscriptions (the one they could usually locate), after telling them I wanted to stop ANY AND ALL ADOBE SUBSCRIPTIONS. I THEN - waited a month - and sure enough - I got billed again for the phantom subscription - only when I again called about THAT was Adobe able to suddenly locate the second billing subscription (which was under the same email ID I'd been giving them ALL ALONG in my communications with them.)

It's as if because there were two "accidental" subscriptions - one was functionally buried behind the other and wouldn't show up in their system. (maybe. Who knows. I've spent hours and half a dozen long drawn out phone calls trying to get this fixed.)

This month, July 2017 is the first time in 3 years I have managed to get my auto-draw payments going to Adobe down to Zero.

(I lit an extra firework on the Fourth yesterday in celebration.)

Again, it's a fine program that appears to work well for many people. But the entire back end off-shore billing operation is functionally AWFUL in my direct personal experience.

May you happily let Adobe bill you forever, feel it's totally worth it - and never have to disentangle yourselves from them financially. And if you do, I pray you'll have a better experience than I did.

Debating whether it's useful to try to recover the two years and $220 they billed me for something I never touched - or to just lick my wounds and count my blessings that it's OVER now (save the "special subscription offers" that keep arriving.

Good luck.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 5, 2017 at 7:37:39 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jul 5, 2017 at 8:02:56 pm

[Bill Davis] "[Simon Ubsdell] "Overall your experience, while incredibly frustrating, sounds atypical."

Not in my experience."


I didn't actually mean the tech support part of it.

I'd be more than inclined to agree that Adobe just haven't got a handle on this at all. Which given the subscription model, is frankly not good.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 5, 2017 at 8:13:03 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I'd be more than inclined to agree that Adobe just haven't got a handle on this at all. Which given the subscription model, is frankly not good."

Yeah, well. as with many profit driven businesses - customer satisfaction will NEVER be a priority unless and until it can be proven to effect the bottom line.

Add the fact that every month that a user does their work inside a "than you for letting us control of your IP" subscription model - the ability to leave gets more and more difficult as the months pass.

I have a modest 5000 or so photos from the past few years that I've edited/enhanced via Lightroom.

And those hundreds of hours of work are now dead to me.

Oh well. My fault. I simply should have found an alternative sooner.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 5, 2017 at 8:38:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "Yeah, well. as with many profit driven businesses - customer satisfaction will NEVER be a priority unless and until it can be proven to effect the bottom line."

To justify their marketing claims about the value to customers of the subscription model, they should have at the very least pumped serious amounts of money and effort into support by now, which there is absolutely no sign that they have done.

Meanwhile the pace of development of the flagship products has clearly dropped, along with quality standards in some cases. At the same time they are expending a lot of effort into finding new ways to monetise the customer base.

It's not looking pretty.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 6, 2017 at 2:32:33 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Meanwhile the pace of development of the flagship products has clearly dropped, along with quality standards in some cases. At the same time they are expending a lot of effort into finding new ways to monetise the customer base."

Not to be too rah-rah Team Adobe here, but that's not actually clear to me. How do you measure the pace of development? Adobe is now doing 2-3 minor updates per year, versus their old cadence of 1 major update every 12-18 months. No one individual update feels that big anymore, but there are a lot more of them in the same amount of time.

Also, I believe that some of the development that's happening now would have been harder to justify without subscription: specifically, resolving some of the significant technical debt [link] that's accumulated in After Effects like barnacles on the hull of a ship over the last two decades. The obviously visible progress in Ae amounts to little, but I believe there's been a lot of under-the-hood progress that will pay dividends for years to come... any day now. This is a project that should have been started ten years ago; I don't think it's a coincidence that this work began at the same time that Adobe moved exclusive to Creative Cloud.

I definitely see the argument on quality assurance; it does seem that the latest releases are buggier than the releases of years past. Of course, on the other hand, there are several big factors at play here: 1) the complexity of the DVA applications has increased significantly in the last decade; 2) the computing environment these apps need to work in has become a lot more turbulent. More frequent major OS releases on both desktop platforms and a big shift in systems design means that developers need to run just to keep up; and 3) as the user base widens, a huge number of new use cases, setups and hardware configurations that require testing are springing up. But none of that excuses something like the recent Premiere Pro media cache bug.

Finally, I'd agree that documentation has suffered and support does sound abysmal. I haven't actually tried it. Is there even one person here who has had a very positive Adobe support experience that didn't require intercession from Kevin or a member of the development team?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 6, 2017 at 2:48:08 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Not to be too rah-rah Team Adobe here, but that's not actually clear to me. How do you measure the pace of development? "

I'm probably just being grouchy (again), but I was (probably over-)reacting to two things.

a) The fact that the After Effects performance issue is still very much outstanding. The re-architected solution may well be just around the corner, as you say, but it's starting to feel just not good enough that we haven't properly seen the fruits of it yet.

b) I was hugely underwhelmed by the "new" Title Tool in Premiere. I'm sure I'm not along in thinking they seriously dropped the ball on this one. Better to have done nothing than to have done what they have done.

But as I say, it's just grouchiness. What is undeniable is that support is totally inadequate from everything we keep hearing about it. That is something that should be enhanced with the subscription model but the signs are it's being downgraded yet further.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 6, 2017 at 7:00:43 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "b) I was hugely underwhelmed by the "new" Title Tool in Premiere. I'm sure I'm not along in thinking they seriously dropped the ball on this one. Better to have done nothing than to have done what they have done."

Me too. The titling system of Premiere Pro worked just fine. The new titling system does not have all the bells and whistles of the old titling system. It will allow templates to be made if you like using templates. I thought the Premiere Pro CC updates for 2017 were mediocre.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 7, 2017 at 10:54:11 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "a) The fact that the After Effects performance issue is still very much outstanding. The re-architected solution may well be just around the corner, as you say, but it's starting to feel just not good enough that we haven't properly seen the fruits of it yet."

The Ae work has taken way longer than I think anyone, Adobe included, anticipated. That is personally frustrating for me because I feel like the creative toolset has to take a backseat until the architecture work is done, and I want to see Ae pick up some new creative tools!

I can only console myself with the the tale of Softimage/Avid DS, which Scott has alluded to elsewhere in this thread. DS (which I almost foolishly bought in 2013!) was 10 years ahead of its time when it launched. But it did not receive the level of continuous development required, so time time caught up and passed it by. Its architecture, an early advantage, became its fatal limitation.

I think we saw the same threat with FCP7. The application was limited by its own design, and couldn't get significantly better without a lot of rework. Apple decided to scrap the project and start over and we got FCPX. With Flame, Autodesk hit the limit of the Discreet architecture, and they went through a dark period of 3-5 years while re-working the Batch and Action internals. In both of those cases, FCPX and Flame 2014/2015/2016 (it's hard to draw the line) eventually emerged, modernized, competitive and significantly more capable than their predecessors.

How else does mature software get through the doldrums?


[Simon Ubsdell] "b) I was hugely underwhelmed by the "new" Title Tool in Premiere. I'm sure I'm not along in thinking they seriously dropped the ball on this one. Better to have done nothing than to have done what they have done."

I would strongly urge anyone with ideas on what the title tool should be to file feature requests.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 7, 2017 at 11:25:28 am

[Walter Soyka] "I would strongly urge anyone with ideas on what the title tool should be to file feature requests."

A tourist in Ireland asks one of the locals for directions to Dublin. The Irishman replies: ‘Well sir, if I were you, I wouldn’t start from here’.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 7, 2017 at 11:31:27 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "A tourist in Ireland asks one of the locals for directions to Dublin. The Irishman replies: ‘Well sir, if I were you, I wouldn’t start from here’."

Fair enough... still, I'd be curious about the principles, if not the implementation, that you'd like to see honored in the titler.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 7, 2017 at 11:59:43 am
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Jul 7, 2017 at 9:04:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I'd be curious about the principles, if not the implementation, that you'd like to see honored in the titler.
"


The most obvious point is that they really should have implemented text entry in the Effect Controls and/or the Essential Graphics panel rather than solely in the Program Monitor.

You should be able to activate text entry without having to activate the Text Tool, for example by double-clicking or modifier-clicking the text object.

Modifier-clicking should automatically bring up the Effect Controls or the Essential Graphics panel.

Font selection should update as you scroll through the font library.

When you invoke the Essential Graphics panel wth text selected in the Program Monitor it should take you to the edit section automatically.

A text or other graphic object should have an interactive right-click menu in the Program Monitor.

Loading an Essential Graphics template seems much too slow. It should be instant.

You should have the option to adjust the anchor point without the text object itself moving as well.

There appears to be no way to reset the anchor point to the default in the EG panel other than by zeroing out the values.

You can't animate in the EG panel, only in the Effect Controls.

You should be able to copy the properties of one title over to others.

Adobe need to rethink how they implement outlines.

Overall there's too much unresolved conceptual confusion about how the EG panel interacts with and/or substitutes for the Effect Controls. This is really poo design.

More when I get the chance to think about it properly ...

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 10, 2017 at 8:42:27 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I'd be curious about the principles, if not the implementation, that you'd like to see honored in the titler."

The new text tool is a partial port of the text tools from Photoshop and a good example of why I never do CG in Photoshop. It lacks any of the video CG specific tools that I need. I need one button centering in both horizontal and vertical axis. I need a command to distribute lines of text evenly top to bottom. I need crawl and roll. The old text tool was limited in some ways but the new tool is chaos, plus even the legacy version of the old title tool no longer opens up text templates, so all my previous text templates are now useless.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 10, 2017 at 8:50:34 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The old text tool was limited in some ways but the new tool is chaos, plus even the legacy version of the old title tool no longer opens up text templates, so all my previous text templates are now useless."

I liked the old titling tool and feel as though the latest Premiere Pro updates were horrible. As usual I found more bugs with the latest update.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 10, 2017 at 9:15:32 pm

[Herb Sevush] "plus even the legacy version of the old title tool no longer opens up text templates"

For different reasons to yours, the discontinuity with the legacy version is very bad news for us here too, in particular because you can no longer export legacy .prti files.

I'm happy to sacrifice functionality for something very significantly better. This is not something very significantly better by any stretch of the imagination.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 10, 2017 at 9:36:39 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "
[Herb Sevush] "plus even the legacy version of the old title tool no longer opens up text templates"

For different reasons to yours, the discontinuity with the legacy version is very bad news for us here too, in particular because you can no longer export legacy .prti files.

I'm happy to sacrifice functionality for something very significantly better. This is not something very significantly better by any stretch of the imagination."


I have let Adobe know I like the old titling tool better than the new one. If we all let them know that I can only hope Adobe continues to keep the old titling tool and allow integration with the new titling tool. I am not saying the new titling tools is horrible but what we had already was awesome. I had to prove to the haters that the titling tool in Premiere Pro can do a lot. The new titling tool is limited but the haters praised it. Go figure?







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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 11, 2017 at 8:40:18 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "… the discontinuity with the legacy version is very bad news for us here too, in particular because you can no longer export legacy .prti files."


Wait… OMG… so you're saying… they KILLED the titler??!!

😏


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 11, 2017 at 9:59:22 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "Wait… OMG… so you're saying… they KILLED the titler??!!"

No.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 11, 2017 at 5:14:18 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "No."

I know. Just as much as Apple killed FCP. Apparently some are unable (i.e. unwilling) to differentiate. 😉

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 7, 2017 at 11:43:42 am

[Walter Soyka] "I can only console myself with the the tale of Softimage/Avid DS, which Scott has alluded to elsewhere in this thread. DS (which I almost foolishly bought in 2013!) was 10 years ahead of its time when it launched. But it did not receive the level of continuous development required, so time time caught up and passed it by."

So true. The good thing was that DS was so far ahead of it's time that we got a lot of life out of them even as Avid foolishly let it languish. Softimage had an amazing team working on DS and it always was great to be in their HQ in Montreal. They knew that had something great.

Media Composer still hasn't caught up with DS in many many ways.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 7, 2017 at 12:34:14 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Media Composer still hasn't caught up with DS in many many ways."

I don't think it ever will.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 6, 2017 at 3:21:37 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Finally, I'd agree that documentation has suffered and support does sound abysmal. I haven't actually tried it. Is there even one person here who has had a very positive Adobe support experience that didn't require intercession from Kevin or a member of the development team?"

The documentation is horrible. But it seems documentation has gone down hill across the board over the last few years. Or maybe I just got spoiled by the great documentation that came with FCP Legend. The only time I've gotten decent tech support from a vender is when I've been under a maintenance contract with them. 'Free' tech support always seems to be disappointing, but I guess you get what you pay for. I think I called Apple tech support one time for a question with FCP 5.1 and the support was so useless I've never bothered to call them about anything since.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 6, 2017 at 3:29:37 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The only time I've gotten decent tech support from a vender is when I've been under a maintenance contract with them. 'Free' tech support always seems to be disappointing, but I guess you get what you pay for. I think I called Apple tech support one time for a question with FCP 5.1 and the support was so useless I've never bothered to call them about anything since."

We very quickly discovered that the AVID maintenance contract support was quite literally a joke - a couple of useless stock responses and that was it. In no sense was it worth what we were paying for it.

I don't know if it has improved in recent years but I would be surprised if it had.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 6, 2017 at 6:55:50 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Not to be too rah-rah Team Adobe here, but that's not actually clear to me. How do you measure the pace of development? Adobe is now doing 2-3 minor updates per year, versus their old cadence of 1 major update every 12-18 months. No one individual update feels that big anymore, but there are a lot more of them in the same amount of time."

The updates were better and with CC more bugs are introduced.

[Walter Soyka] "I definitely see the argument on quality assurance; it does seem that the latest releases are buggier than the releases of years past."

I find bugs in Premiere Pro CC as well as Illustrator CC and Photoshop CC. Adobe does not have good quality control.

[Walter Soyka] "Finally, I'd agree that documentation has suffered and support does sound abysmal."

We pay more but get less.

I am not and Adobe hater. I just know things used to be better. Can Adobe rebound at NAB 2018 or will BMD's DR 14.5 rock the house?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 5, 2017 at 8:53:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "Add the fact that every month that a user does their work inside a "than you for letting us control of your IP" subscription model - the ability to leave gets more and more difficult as the months pass.."

That's just your personal experience/opinion though, not a fact. On the flip side, PPro has been my main NLE for over three years and if I canceled my subscription tomorrow it wouldn't be a problem, but the types of projects I generally work on are probably very different than the types of projects you generally work on. If work that needs to be done in PPro comes around again then I'll just restart my subscription.

IMO lack of competition is the big thing that makes people feel like they are locked into a certain system, not accounting methods. For example, many Avid users see the Adrenaline days as a low point with the company but they still felt compelled to spend 10's (if not 100's) of thousands of dollars on Avid's products because they didn't think any viable alternatives existed ('stuck' with MC, no subscription required). Once FCP Legend was considered a 'good enough' alternative to MC then you saw the defections start to happen in relatively short order.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 8, 2017 at 12:03:37 am

[Bill Davis] "I have a modest 5000 or so photos from the past few years that I've edited/enhanced via Lightroom.
And those hundreds of hours of work are now dead to me. "


Why? Couldn't you simply have exported the adjusted images as TIFFs or JPEGs? You would still have the original, unaltered images in addition to the adjusted ones. What's the issue?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 9, 2017 at 2:31:09 am

[Oliver Peters] "Why? Couldn't you simply have exported the adjusted images as TIFFs or JPEGs? You would still have the original, unaltered images in addition to the adjusted ones. What's the issue?"

Oh I see.

The hundreds and hundreds of hours I spent in MY chair conceiving and executing changes to MY photos - searching and amending the metadata until I was satisfied. That metadata arrangement entered into and codified into MY personal work files through MY time in the chair in front of MY tools

Because of how they decided to run their business at the executive level - THEY get to gatekeep the ability to functional access and use my work forever more.

You may be fine with the idea that the price of using Adobe Products is agreeing to give up my rights to my creative efforts - but I pretty much don't.

I suspect we will always see this differently.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 9, 2017 at 12:36:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "Oh I see.

The hundreds and hundreds of hours I spent in MY chair conceiving and executing changes to MY photos - searching and amending the metadata until I was satisfied."


None of that answered the substance of my question. It's just a rant. And Lightroom was available for sale. Knowing that you hated subscription so much, why didn't you simply get the paid version instead of the subscription version?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 9, 2017 at 3:29:10 pm

Bill,

FWIW - did you try this?

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/kb/serialize-lightroom-cc-trial-to-activa...

I haven't tried it, but according to various forums posts, it apparently works with any Lightroom version. So you could downgrade from CC to 6 and preserve all of your work.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 11, 2017 at 6:20:52 am

Nope. I'm gone from Adobe now. I feel there's more value in time spent with the much newer faster and cleaner code of Affinity Photo, Pixelmator and whatever new stuff follows them.

Heck, whole awesome programs are to be had for the cost of 4-5 months of rental - so it's time to look forward, not back. I've already opened my top 200 raw images in them and started learning the new tools.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 11, 2017 at 8:42:12 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Jul 11, 2017 at 8:45:01 am

[Bill Davis] "whole awesome programs are to be had for the cost of 4-5 months of rental"

More like ONE. Worst case 2.5. (depending on which loan-model you fell for)

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 11, 2017 at 8:25:52 pm

My CC Photo subscription was $9.95 ($10.62 with tax) monthly.
And Affinity was $49.95 retail.
Still, the overarching point is the same.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 5, 2017 at 8:50:59 pm

Bill, this post reminded me to cancel a temporary account I had set up a couple months ago. (Thank you for that!)

On a month-to-month agreement, I could login and cancel in 4 clicks from the account management panel on adobe.com: the first to start canceling the plan, the second to answer a survey question why I was canceling, the third to move on from the exit survey to the cancel page (where they present other options, like the Photoshop package and single-app subscriptions), and the fourth to really cancel.

I know this doesn't change the horror story you had getting your account cancelled, but I think Adobe has finally done the right thing and made it as easy to cancel online as it was to sign up in the first place.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 11:21:43 pm

[Tom Sefton] "All the footage was stored on gtech studio xl raids that had plenty of space, and we were editing on Mac Pro 2013s - either 6 or 8 core with 32 or 64GB of ram and max GPU."

Have you ever tried Premiere Pro on a PC? Just curious. Having said that someone reported a lot of problems when using Premiere Pro on a Mac but the problems were traced back to Safari being opened. Once Safari was closed the crashes went away. I am not saying that is what is causing your system to crash.


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 8:42:49 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Went back to dip our toes in the premiere water for a project recently and had some major issues with import, export and performance. Tried the Adobe forums, the premiere forums on the Cow and got no answers. Adobe tech support was woeful - was even told that a 2TB library of rushes was too large and to reduce it down because premiere wouldn't support it, or we could edit half the sequence in each project and join them together at the end. I've really not experienced good tech support for premiere pro."

Are you on the OS X platform?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 8:44:28 pm

[Tom Sefton] " Adobe tech support was woeful - was even told that a 2TB library of rushes was too large and to reduce it down because premiere wouldn't support it..."

😱

That is woeful support. On my doc projects I don't think I've ever had a project in PPro that referenced less than 4TB of media (most I've hit so far is 24TB).


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 3:57:03 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'real NLE questions', but aren't the program-specific forums on the COW the best place to ask those questions?"


This forum gets more answers! Even for Premiere I can get better answers here. So, if I put up with the static, I get better answers.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: Is it just me?
on Jul 4, 2017 at 6:16:31 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'real NLE questions', but aren't the program-specific forums on the COW the best place to ask those questions? Where as this specific forum is designed for, well, debates?"

I agree.


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