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Simon Ubsdell
Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 19, 2017 at 8:56:20 pm

It's been fascinating to read all your comments on the bricklaying threads, but one thing has very much stood out for me.

From what I have seen, there are editors who approach the timeline with extreme caution and who seemingly won't venture there unless fully armed with everything they can muster.

Conversely there are others who apparently don't feel the same trepidation and see the timeline as a place of possibilities.

Again, I am not making a judgment here. Perhaps it is the best strategy to confront the timeline with weapons at the ready, and perhaps it is hopelessly naΓ―ve to think it's a safe place to play. Or perhaps not.

Apologies for the metaphor as always. It's just a metaphor, with all the inaccuracy and foolishness that comes with it. but metaphors do get us talking and that's a good thing, I hope you agree.

I'm not right and you're not wrong. I'm just someone who's very interested in the psychology of editing so many thanks to all of you for your endlessly fascinating opinions.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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andy patterson
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 19, 2017 at 9:54:43 pm
Last Edited By andy patterson on Jun 20, 2017 at 3:58:22 am

Even if 10 different people use FCPX all ten may go about editing different. One person posted they color grade all the clips up front. That is not something I would opt to do. Is FCPX more like karate and Premiere Pro more like Judo? Metaphors and analogies are OK but sometime they can lead to even more equivocation.

[Simon Ubsdell] "From what I have seen, there are editors who approach the timeline with extreme caution and who seemingly won't venture there unless fully armed with everything they can muster."

I agree.

Even though I use Premiere Pro my editing paradigm can shift from project to project. I am always looking for better editing methods. There are some cool feature in FCPX that look nice as well as DR. There are cool things about Premiere Pro as well. Regardless of your choice of NLE they will all get better and better and our editing methods will probably continue to evolve as new features are added.

[Simon Ubsdell] "I'm not right and you're not wrong. I'm just someone who's very interested in the psychology of editing so many thanks to all of you for your endlessly fascinating opinions."

What works for some may not work well for others. An editing contest might be interesting. I think we could all learn something new about our own NLE as well as what the competition has to offer.


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Bill Davis
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 19, 2017 at 11:25:36 pm

I hope to ever remain someone who enjoys going exploring.

On some long hikes, I want the safety of prepping myself with a compass, a pocket knife and extra water.
Experience has proved to me that for some specific types of adventures - it behooves me to plan and prepare myself carefully.

But I also hope I don't ever lose the type of exploration that doesn't need ANY of that. To simply go to a place with out the slightest idea of what I'll find and no plan in mind - and freely explore as the spirit moves me.

The world would hardly be as interesting if both those journey types - and many more - weren't out there waiting.

My 2 cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 20, 2017 at 2:54:51 am

I think the most important thing an editor can do is become totally familiar with all of their elements. If that means logging, bin sorting, key words and note taking, fine. If it means string outs and multiple timelines, fine. A combination of both, fine. Whatever gets an editor so immersed with the visual and audio elements available that he/she can make the unconscious connections that lead to good work is the right way to go. From file cards on a cork board to smart bins - if it helps the editor to absorb and remember everything they have to play with, then it's good, but it's important to remember that "the map is not the terrain." I believe it is Frederick Wiseman who, after a film has been locked, goes back and looks at all of his footage one last time to see if he missed anything. As always, the most important tool for an editor is time.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 20, 2017 at 3:38:33 am

Well said.


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andy patterson
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 20, 2017 at 3:57:15 am

[Herb Sevush] "From file cards on a cork board to smart bins - if it helps the editor to absorb and remember everything they have to play with, then it's good"

I tend to agree. At first it might seem a tad bit prehistoric to use use file cards but what if it proves to be very efficient?

[Herb Sevush] "I think the most important thing an editor can do is become totally familiar with all of their elements. If that means logging, bin sorting, key words and note taking, fine. If it means string outs and multiple timelines, fine. A combination of both, fine."

I tend to agree. I don't think it is one or the other. I think both paradigms have merit. I am not going to bad mouth FCPX or pretend Premiere Pro is perfect. On the other hand I don't think any NLE is perfect at this point in time. Is it possible DR will implement metadata that surpasses FCPX and Premiere Pro? Who knows? All I can say is that in another ten years we may be editing halograms with microprocessors embedded in our brains making everything thing we know about editing thus far seem prehistoric. Will Google introduce Halo Edit 1.0 in the year 2026? Who knows? I just know things will evolve.

[Herb Sevush] " As always, the most important tool for an editor is time."

My editing system allows me to alter space and time : )


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 20, 2017 at 9:53:48 pm

Thank Herb..."after a film has been locked, goes back and looks at all of his footage one last time to see if he missed anything. "

So many times we think the edit is over once it is "over." But that last dig thru the footage has netted a gem almost every time! It is so different looking at footage purely subjectively rather than looking for a clip that will fill a hole. Looking after the fact affords that.

Brilliant.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 21, 2017 at 5:20:27 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "From what I have seen, there are editors who approach the timeline with extreme caution and who seemingly won't venture there unless fully armed with everything they can muster."

Thinking about this from a developer's perspective, Avid's historical position has been, most things that can happen on the timeline are bad, and must be prevented. πŸ˜‚

To put it more positively, the timeline is sacred. ANYTHING that happens there, whether sculpting or bricklaying (and I think Avid has tended to prefer the latter), HAS to happen with intent. This led to a modal approach that I know has come in for grief from software purists, but it has its roots in the editing process itself: the concept of picture lock. Not just at the end of the process (okay, now we export a cut list and send it off to the negative house), but in the sense of, "Now that this piece is in place, nothing shall move it until I take steps to allow it to be moved."

Hence the universal frustration of every editor coming from another NLE to sit at an Avid for the first time, click around on the timeline, yet nothing being selected. That's the point. No random clicks creating unexpected results. Nothing becoming accidentally unsynced or unrendered. (These obviously being less of a big deal NOW, but 20 years ago, I assure you, A Very Big Deal Indeed.)

Instead, you had to enter a mode that allowed you to select things on the timeline, then choose a tool that actually allowed you to do so.

This speaks to a larger set of assumptions that have everything to do with Avid's team-oriented approach to everything. The assumption is that many people will be touching assets in various forms of completion, and the one thing that must be protected above all others is the sanctity of the timeline, ie, The Edit itself. It's an intentionally rigid construction.

It's a gross oversimplification to place this at one end of a spectrum that has the magnetic timeline at the other end of the spectrum -- an enchanted meadow of infinite flexibility, also a gross oversimplification. As I've noted, they have more in common with each other than not, including a single product manager responsible for the origination (or at least the management of the implementation) of both. They certainly share a preference for doing the "work" of the edit before you get to the timeline.

But when I hear "dangerous forest" and "enchanted meadow", I think of something ancient -- some combination of history and myth, which exactly characterizes not just FCP Legend but the relatively more recent legacy of FCPX. Media Composer's roots can seem positively prehistoric that way, too. πŸ˜‚

But those are indeed its roots. Sync is sacred. Cuts are sacred. Placement on the timeline is sacred. None of this may be altered without honoring the forces that have bound them there.


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Richard Herd
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 21, 2017 at 6:20:16 pm

You sound like LeStat and his savage garden. :)


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 21, 2017 at 9:17:39 pm

An absolutely fascinating post. To draw the line that connects Media Composer with FCP X is extremely instructive!

My observation is quite a bit more banal than yours, and it's this.

In the days of film and tape the act of "performing an edit" was fraught with consequences and was not entered into lightly. You made sure that you were doing something that you wouldn't have to undo unless absolutely necessary.

Accordingly there was a strong element of performance anxiety attached to making the edit.

The advent of NLEs changed all that. Or at least it should have done. But for many, many editors it hasn't.

It is very clear from the comments here that performance anxiety still afflicts editors even now when there are no negative consequences to "making the edit".

There is still patently a strong feeling that you shouldn't risk committing anything to the timeline until you've got all your ducks in a row.

I have seen a lot of this over the years - editors who dither helplessly before adding something to the timeline, just in case it's "the wrong decision". It sets my teeth on edge to watch.

"The Editor's Fear of the Timeline" is an all too common affliction.

It takes serious editing therapy to overcome.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 21, 2017 at 9:50:43 pm

There might be something to that but I think a lot of editors just want to be familiar with their footage before adding it to the timeline for no rhyme or reason. That is how a lot of us have been taught. I would bet "performance anxiety" applies to all methods of editing whither you are editing subtractive or not. Simon, your post still come across as those that don't edit subtractive are somehow inferior than those that do. I am sure that was not your intent. Got to go I am late for my editing therapy.


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Richard Herd
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 21, 2017 at 11:51:41 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "it should have"

Franz? This.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 7:38:20 am

[Richard Herd] "[Simon Ubsdell] "it should have"

Franz? This."


"Should have" as in "you would be tempted to think might have".

Probably not the sense you are trying to wring out of it.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 1:18:07 am

[Simon Ubsdell] ""The Editor's Fear of the Timeline" is an all too common affliction"

Second only, perhaps to the newbie shooters irrational fear about "But what if a better camera comes out soon? Maybe I should read a hundred more gear reviews and wait another six months to decide?"

Sometimes I really think the whole internet is a melange of "too much information" butting heads with a pervasive climate of "if I don't pick the very BEST choice - I'm DOOMED."

When I was starting out I remember that the folks who got better, quicker - weren't the ones who spent their time waiting to get ahold of the perfect camera - it was the ones that went out and shot as much stuff as they could with whatever camera they could get their paws on.

Oh well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 7:15:20 am

[Bill Davis] "the folks who got better, quicker - weren't the ones who spent their time waiting to get ahold of the perfect camera - it was the ones that went out and shot as much stuff as they could with whatever camera they could get their paws on."

So true.

Comes back to the 10,000 hours thing.

To coin a phrase: just do it!

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Mark Smith
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 9:25:13 am

A couple of things ; The 10,000 hour thing sure - grab a camera and go at it. Unless you see the results of your work- that is through the edit , you can also keep making the same mistakes over and over.. Having to edit what you shot or sit with some one else while they edit what you shot is one of the most squirm - inducing lessons that one can go through. SO yes, shoot by all means, but don't just throw your stuff over the wall and have it disappear into the editor's room, witness the edit or edit yourself.

Tim Wrote "But those are indeed its roots. Sync is sacred. Cuts are sacred. Placement on the timeline is sacred. None of this may be altered without honoring the forces that have bound them there."

Back 1974 I made a video for an Urban Planning class I was taking . It was shot on Sony portapak and edited machine to machine on open reels, without an edit controller. The Time line was a build and was the condensed sweat and tears of my partner and myself. So yeah, this is where this "time line is sacred" attitude originated because the time line back then was almost the same as carving stone, so the time was pretty sacred.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 12:36:27 pm

[Tim Wilson] "To put it more positively, the timeline is sacred. ANYTHING that happens there, whether sculpting or bricklaying (and I think Avid has tended to prefer the latter), HAS to happen with intent. This led to a modal approach that I know has come in for grief from software purists, but it has its roots in the editing process itself: the concept of picture lock. "

[Simon Ubsdell] "To draw the line that connects Media Composer with FCP X is extremely instructive!
"


Interestingly enough that's something that really struck me about the design of X. It really is more Media Composer-like than FCP 7-like. That's especially ironic since editors using FCP 1-7 and now Premiere Pro often use the timeline as a sort of video scratch pad, with possible clips to be used parked all over the place.

I tend to be a stickler for clean, final sequences. It drives me up the wall when I encounter a "final" sequence with a bunch of extra left over clips still hanging out on the timeline starting a few seconds after the end of the actual program or commercial. Clean up after yourself, dammit!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 6:47:51 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I tend to be a stickler for clean, final sequences. It drives me up the wall when I encounter a "final" sequence with a bunch of extra left over clips still hanging out on the timeline starting a few seconds after the end of the actual program or commercial. Clean up after yourself, dammit!"

Yes.

I wonder how many people here look back at their careers - and can remember how messy they often were when they were developing their creative chops.

IME, in the rush to create - I know I seldom stopped to on carefully putting everything away in real time. And things got messy really fast. It's probably part of "creative focus", which demands concentration like nothing else really.

As you get more comfortable, the frustration of disorder faced again and again and again AFTER the creative impulse has done it's work - often leads to a creator increasingly valuing ORDER in their efforts.

Unless, of course, you're so successful in your creative work you can simply hire people to follow you around and clean things up after you. πŸ€—

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 7:02:33 pm

[Bill Davis] "As you get more comfortable, the frustration of disorder faced again and again and again AFTER the creative impulse has done it's work - often leads to a creator increasingly valuing ORDER in their efforts.
"


You can be completely tidy at all times ( I won't say that you should be, of course) and still have all the room in the world to be free and experimental.

But it takes practice - nothing good comes without practice.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Charlie Austin
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 8:01:55 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Jun 22, 2017 at 8:03:55 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "You can be completely tidy at all times ( I won't say that you should be, of course) and still have all the room in the world to be free and experimental.

But it takes practice - nothing good comes without practice.
"


Personally, I've learned how to use every App I know (NLE, DAW, GFX, Text, Photo editing.. whatever) by just diving in, completely screwing things up, figuring out what went wrong, and then fixing it. Actually, that still kind of describes my editing style.

Sometimes, it works... πŸ™ˆ

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 25, 2017 at 3:41:08 pm

That completely describes everything I've learned in my life. And probably keeps me from taking my skills a notch higher. I'll first try something, get a little gist, get stuck, then do a tutorial or take a lesson or advice, then learn the rest myself. My training from there on, whether it's guitar, building a fence (last week), or video production tends to be limited to forums and YouTube. Even with a small tutorial from ripple or Denver riddle I tend to watch just enough to get the gist then I'm off playing with the controls or trying to figure it out for myself. If I don't figure out things by doing, I just don't retain the info.

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCP X Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Oliver Peters
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 25, 2017 at 4:58:53 pm

[Bret Williams] "If I don't figure out things by doing, I just don't retain the info."

Figuring it out on your own is a good thing, but what hinders progress is whether you only work on your own or work in a team or collaborative environment with others. It's easy to learn bad habits when the only person you have to answer to is yourself. My son teaches guitar and the folks who come in who've already learned some on their own are often the worst students. He has to break bad habits first before he can teach correct technique that will let them progress.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 25, 2017 at 7:46:47 pm

Agreed. Luckily I started in numerous collaborative environments, and even early freelance years were still collaborative. Still get a taste here and there.

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCP X Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Bill Davis
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 26, 2017 at 3:23:04 am

Just don't get stuck in the same "and everyone experiences this like I do" trap.

My wife is an instructional specialist and knows a lot of learning theory. She's always told me that there are many natural learning modalities that different individuals favor in their unique mental mix of how they learn.

It sounds like you're what she occasionally described to me as an "experiential" learner.

I never understood the distinction very much until we set out to raise a son who's HEAVILY weighted as an auditory learner. He struggled in schools with anything written, but during the 4th Harry Potter book I read to him, if I'd reference something small and basically arcaneI'd read to him from the first book - if I got it even slightly wrong - he'd quietly correct me and 10 out of 10 times he'd be precisely correct. He soaked up learning by LISTENING like a sponge. Watching or doing, somewhat less.

I suspect fields like Editing that require particular audio and visual acuity tend to attract people who tilt towards the communications modes that support that - so there might be some general similarities between us in the same way that many really tall athletes tend to drift toward basketball - but if you don't watch out, it might turn out to be a bit easy to fall into the trap of thinking that because someone isn't exceptionally tall - they won't have exceptional basketball sense.

It's interesting to discuss, anyway.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 7:43:32 pm

[Bill Davis] "As you get more comfortable, the frustration of disorder faced again and again and again AFTER the creative impulse has done it's work - often leads to a creator increasingly valuing ORDER in their efforts.
"


One man's ceiling ...

Because I am so naturally messy I have forced myself to be extremely precise in aspects of my work to save me from me. However you can't tell that by looking at my desk, which is a mess that only I can decipher. Some workmen put away all their tools in nice cabinets, other's have them lying all around the place, and you can't know before hand which is the better craftsman.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Dangerous forest or enchanted meadow?
on Jun 22, 2017 at 8:23:55 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Because I am so naturally messy I have forced myself to be extremely precise in aspects of my work to save me from me. "

Goodness me, do I recognise that!

The only area of my life where I am obsessively tidy is editing.

Please don't ask my wife about the rest of it - she will say things that are deeply disobliging.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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