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Oliver Peters
Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 7:36:30 pm

Some take-aways:

Best cumulative Apple product announcements in a loooong time.

New higher-nits screens in the iMacs and iPads will give users better screens than most of the pro video screens we all currently use.

High Sierra macOS will expand the use of hardlinks/symlinks that FCPX users have become familiar with. Could become an issue with shared storage environments.

Apple finally acknowledges that iPad users need an accessible file system.

New developments in iPad/iPad Pro should open up better editing possibilities. Maybe in iMovie or TouchEdit or even a hypothetical FCPX iOS version.

HomePod is very cool. I wonder how this will affect your mixes when clients start to use this to review your files. In all likelihood it will alter the dynamic EQ balance of your mixes.

The iMac Pro can't come soon enough.

Can we puleeeez ban "next level" from the lexicon of all presentations forever? ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 8:49:06 pm

HomePod is such an unimaginative name


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Bob Zelin
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 9:26:38 pm

from what I see, the iMac Pro's top of the line ATI card (this is Radeon, they didn't say ATI) - will be the equivalent of the
NVidia 1060, which is fine. But since the iMac Pro starts at $4999, are we talking about an iMac that is the same price as a blown out HP Z840, AND there are no slots ? I mean if we have a 5 grand machine, and the blown out version (which translates to the top of line GPU - so $8000 for the iMac) - well, that's wonderful, but it's sure not cheap. How many clients today will buy an $8000 computer. At least it "allegedly" will come with a 10G Ethernet network port (which I still can't believe !).

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 9:57:29 pm

[Bob Zelin] "I mean if we have a 5 grand machine, and the blown out version (which translates to the top of line GPU - so $8000 for the iMac) - well, that's wonderful, but it's sure not cheap. "

I think that's pretty low, Bob.

Base RAM = 32GB. I priced 128GB RAM from Kingston via Amazon +$1400 installed. Apple surely won't do it for less than $1500, and could easily get more.

Base drive = 1TB. Again from Amazon, a 4TB from Samsung for $1500, and again assuming that Apple will charge more than this.

No criticism of Apple implied. They SHOULD be taking a premium for factory installation and testing....but I can see this going well past $8000 for sure, and possibly pushing up against $10,000 once you throw in Apple Care. 😂


[Bob Zelin] "AND there are no slots ?"

Even more than the lack of slots, I'm surprised that Apple fails to offer truly pro-level support. Can you imagine any other company not even bothering to offer on-site service or next day parts as a paid option? That's insane to me.

I don't care what specs you put in the box. I want to know that you've got my back if something goes wrong, next business day. This isn't theory or magic or hype. Everybody else is doing it.

Fortunately, there are dealers who'll fill in the gaps in Apple's coverage, but until they're willing to meet the basic threshold long-established across the TRULY pro TRULY workstation industry, I still feel like Apple is trying to pass off a prosumer platform in pro's clothing.

Sorry not sorry, it takes more than specs to be a pro workstation provider.


[Bob Zelin] "At least it "allegedly" will come with a 10G Ethernet network port (which I still can't believe !). "

Here's the grab from Apple's site. Most important connection of all, though: the 3.5mm headphone jack.



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Joe Marler
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 10:27:32 pm

[Bob Zelin] " iMac Pro's top of the line ATI card...Radeon...will be the equivalent of the
NVidia 1060, which is fine. But since the iMac Pro starts at $4999, are we talking about an iMac that is the same price as a blown out HP Z840, "


I don't think anybody knows the exact performance of the Radeon Pro Vega GPU to be used in the iMac Pro. The only number they mentioned was 11 teraflops which is about equal to an nVidia 1080 Ti. We won't know for sure until the exact model of the GPU and specs are released and maybe not until the iMac Pro itself is released and benchmarked. Apple's WWDC video said the Radeon Vega GPU was 3x faster than the current Mac Pro GPU -- don't know if that is single or dual cards.

Re price, Apple's video said it was $2000 cheaper than a tower PC configured to equal specs. I don't know about that, but the cheapest Dell Precision workstation I could configure with 8-core Xeon, possibly similar GPU and 1TB SSD was over $5k, didn't remotely approach 3 gigabytes/sec SSD performance, plus it didn't include a monitor.


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Ben McCarthy
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 6, 2017 at 5:38:08 am

The iMacPro won't have a Radeon RX580 or similar they are waiting for the new cards to drop from AMD Radeon Vega,

"This is where the AMD Vega GPU architecture comes in, aiming to jump in at the high-end and providing the Radeon faithful with a serious GTX 1080 Ti contender."

I'm also excited about the eGPU solutions which Apple talked about, mainly for the Macbook Pros but they'll work the same for the iMac Pros as well, so potentially you could have a Vega as a main discrete dGPU and another Vega in an enclosure doing more computations, coupled that with:

"Infinity Fabric allows us to join different engines together on a die much easier than before," Koduri explained. "As well it enables some really low latency and high-bandwidth interconnects. This is important to tie together our different IPs (and partner IPs) together efficiently and quickly. It forms the basis of all of our future ASIC designs. We haven't mentioned any multi GPU designs on a single ASIC like Epyc, but the capability is possible with Infinity Fabric."


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Marco Feil
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 10:00:04 pm

That was indeed the best keynote in awhile.

Nice speed bump for MacBooks and iMacs.
iMac Pro looks good, I'm curious what the maxed out configs will look like and cost. For people who use 10G Ethernet it'll save them 600$ for the thunderbolt adapter, so that's great.

Best announcement for me was official support for external GPUs, I think that'll be huge, but we'll see. Hopefully available for Thunderbolt 2 devices, I couldn't find any info on supported Macs.

The reasonable pricing of the HomePod kinda surprised me.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 10:24:52 pm

The base model of the iMac Pro already surpasses the tricked out iMacs now and at $5K. Better display, TB3 and 10GigE. In their keynote, Apple made the comparison against a similarly equipped PC with an "average" display and posted that estimate as $7K. I think this machine will be the go-to Apple pro machine and might actually (eventually) negate the need to even release the replacement Mac Pro. If nothing else, it keeps loyal users within the fold until that time.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Pale
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 11:17:03 pm

How the hell are they going to cool this thing with those Xeon processors, all that RAM and a GPU like that?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 11:42:44 pm

[John Pale] "How the hell are they going to cool this thing with those Xeon processors, all that RAM and a GPU like that?"

New fan system. Watch the WWDC keynote.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 11:44:16 pm

There's now a specific iMac Pro page on Apple's website:

https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 6, 2017 at 1:33:05 am

A nice recap by Peter Wiggins:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1973-wwdc-2017-a-new-imac-pro-kaby...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 5, 2017 at 11:51:06 pm

I was wondering about the future of the Mac Mini.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 6, 2017 at 3:53:03 am

[andy patterson] "I was wondering about the future of the Mac Mini."

It's in every future iPhone user's pocket.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 8, 2017 at 12:18:13 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jun 8, 2017 at 12:22:43 pm

Good break down of the iMac Pro:

https://www.provideocoalition.com/new-imac-pro-worth-probably/

One question I have (not answered in the article) is whether the Thunderbolt ports and 10GigE port are all separate or are they shared internally. For example, the current 2013 Mac Pros have six TB ports, but only 3 buses. You lose one if you have 2 displays. So if the new iMac Pro has 4 or 5 separate buses, that already beats the 2013 MP in throughput by a long shot.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 8, 2017 at 12:26:25 pm

Another thought on the iMP is that because this is using a Xeon processor, you do lose the advantage of accelerated H264 encoding that the Core-i chips offer. So in theory, encoding MP4 and other H264 files might actually be slower on this machine than current fully-loaded iMacs and MBPs.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Joe Marler
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 8, 2017 at 1:24:14 pm

[Oliver Peters] "because this is using a Xeon processor, you do lose the advantage of accelerated H264 encoding that the Core-i chips offer. So in theory, encoding MP4 and other H264 files might actually be slower on this machine than current fully-loaded iMacs and MBPs."

That is a possible issue. OTOH if you lose 3x performance due to no Quick Sync but gain 4x from 18 cores, it still might be faster. There are also other possibilities -- see my comments in this post: https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/95701#95782


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 8, 2017 at 3:39:24 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Another thought on the iMP is that because this is using a Xeon processor, you do lose the advantage of accelerated H264 encoding that the Core-i chips offer. So in theory, encoding MP4 and other H264 files might actually be slower on this machine than current fully-loaded iMacs and MBPs."

If you are making that many mp4s a day, then yes, the iMac Pro may be "slower". May be. But if that's the case, you'd have a dedicated machine cranking quicksync mp4s all day every day tethered to your new 10Gb storage.

I can't imagine slowing down the entirety of editing/rendering on a lesser machine just so I can make a review copy in 3 minutes instead of 5.


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 8, 2017 at 11:00:45 pm

The lesson I learned in 2015 was NEVER waste time "imagining" what hardware might do.

Wait for it to ship and test what it ACTUALLY does.

A few years back I'd read 1000 times that a big desktop level machine was required to do serious daily editing for money.

That wisdom was totally and utterly wrong - yet years later, people are still parroting it.
People working only in desktop machines missed the gap closing in mobile vs desktop processor performance along with the development of modern proxy workflows.

Basically, the ground had shifted.

When the iMacPro -and later whatever MacPro replacement arrives - that's when it's time to assess the validity of the workflows that it will enable..

When they can be tested in the real world.

Speculation is fun, but often woefully wrong when it crashes head on into reality.

My 2 cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 8, 2017 at 11:19:24 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jun 8, 2017 at 11:50:44 pm

John Gruber's Talk Show Live from WWDC:



FYI - Discussion about iMacs and iMac Pro starts about 30 min. in.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 9, 2017 at 6:55:36 am

[Bill Davis] "A few years back I'd read 1000 times that a big desktop level machine was required to do serious daily editing for money."

There is no shortage of BS on the internet. Six years ago many FCPX users claimed you need an $8500.00 workstation to edit native AVCHD using Premiere Pro. A few years ago it changed to you need a $8500.00 workstation to edit 4K using premiere Pro. As I have stated there is a lot of BS on the internet.

[Bill Davis] "That wisdom was totally and utterly wrong - yet years later, people are still parroting it.
People working only in desktop machines missed the gap closing in mobile vs desktop processor performance along with the development of modern proxy workflows."


Not everyone wants to use a proxy workflow. Some people want to edit 4K, 6K and 8K at full resolution using camera raw files and other native formats. For that you probably do need an $8500.00 desktop computer.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 9, 2017 at 1:07:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "A few years back I'd read 1000 times that a big desktop level machine was required to do serious daily editing for money."

Obviously "pro" is hard to define, but in the John Gruber WWDC video, they pointed out that in terms of numbers among pro users, the machines used ranked 1- MacBook Pros, 2-iMacs, and 3-Mac Pros. What's hard to judge, of course, is how much overlap there is. For example, a pro user who is alternating between a laptop and a desktop machine. The real reason to use a desktop isn't necessarily power, but connectivity. If all you need is an external monitor and a drive, then a MBP is just fine. But many users need a lot more than that, which makes a desktop unit a more attractive option.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 10, 2017 at 7:39:56 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The real reason to use a desktop isn't necessarily power, but connectivity. If all you need is an external monitor and a drive, then a MBP is just fine. But many users need a lot more than that, which makes a desktop unit a more attractive option.
"


So the next question obviously becomes has "connectivity" itself changed?

I'd argue it already has - massively.

Remember how "Video" used to pass only on specialized video connectors?

Now, when you plug in a Lumaforge Jellyfish via 10gig to enable a small workgroup of editors - all you're really doing is plugging in a glorified telephone connector.

Your fancy 5k monitor - when you go to plug THAT in, you're plugging in the same HDMI connector as you find on your living room Sony TV.

Half the "interim components" I used to have to string into my working topology - TBCs, Decks, PatchBays, etc, etc, etc - are GONE.

Input: Wireless
Output: Wireless
100% of the effect boxes I used to need to have "Connected" now live in computer resident silicon and code, not in metal boxes. They are either purchased code snippets or Apps (which are the same thing.)

The whole industry wide BET on USB C/Thunderbolt is to simplify connectivity - basically to make it dismissible.

I'm sorry, but I don't think "connectivity as an issue" has much tail left.

Bob Zelin made the point in your Florida video. When there are hardly any "video specific" monitors left in the video solution vendors booths at NAB - it's a pretty good indication that things have changed out from under a whole generation of classic practitioners.

Time to adapt again. Oh well. Business as usual today.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 11, 2017 at 3:58:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "So the next question obviously becomes has "connectivity" itself changed?"

I guess from my perspective the answer is yes and no. Certainly the need for tape decks, routers, and patch bays has gone away, however for many of us in the NLE world, that's been true for going on 10 years already. As far as the other peripherals, that hasn't changed - only the type of connectors and protocols.

[Bill Davis] "Now, when you plug in a Lumaforge Jellyfish via 10gig to enable a small workgroup of editors - all you're really doing is plugging in a glorified telephone connector. "

Shared storage has been around for 20 years. It's gotten easier, for sure, but essentially it's still the same - network protocol, server, switch, drives. Lumaforge, QNAP, and others make that more self-contained than in the past, but it still requires a plug connected to the computer, regardless of whether that's 1GigE, 10GigE, FibreChannel, SAS, or SCSI.

[Bill Davis] "The whole industry wide BET on USB C/Thunderbolt is to simplify connectivity - basically to make it dismissible. "

That's certainly true, but Thunderbolt is still inadequate in many cases. These days I often run a 2013 Mac Pro. On it, nearly every spigot is used. It's also connected to a dock and two monitors and the ports on the dock and both monitors are largely used up. Unfortunately Apple chose to give you 3 shared TB2 ports, so actual throughput is a bottleneck. Plus, the actual installation is more messy than on the Mac Pro tower it replaced. So your argument doesn't change the equation. If I have a laptop with a few TB-C ports versus a desktop machine with more ports, I still need the desktop because it offer mores and better connectivity.

[Bill Davis] "Bob Zelin made the point in your Florida video. When there are hardly any "video specific" monitors left in the video solution vendors booths at NAB - it's a pretty good indication that things have changed out from under a whole generation of classic practitioners. "

Of course Bob tends to talk in hyperbole ☺ And he started on that by referencing the room I described above. I would point out that I still need a decent video monitor and i/o for grading product. I need a video monitor that I can use with broadcast content. There were actually plenty of video monitors on the floor - Canon, Panasonic, Sony, etc. However, there were also hybrids, like HP's DreamColor that gives you the best of both worlds. In my case, I started using HDMI to a flat panel for the majority of the time when I'm just editing, ONLY because FCPX is giving me such totally AWFUL performance when connected through the BMC UltraStudio Express. It just so happens that at 23.98 and 29.97, I can use HDMI "desktop video" from both FCPX and Premiere to send real video to an HDMI-connected third display. BUT, this doesn't really work well for all frame rate standards nor interlaced sequences. So for those reasons and color correction, I still need an accurate video display.

So back to what I said before - if your peripheral needs are simple, then a laptop, display, and a couple of wires to externals are fine, but that's not reality in most pro environments. There, desktops are still needed.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Erik Lindahl
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 11, 2017 at 4:46:10 pm

I think TB-limit on the nMP wasn't really a choice by Apple, rather a limitation of the given hardware. Think Anandtech had a very good breakdown at release of the machine.

That said I really hope the iMac Pro (and coming MacPro) doesn't have this limitation to the highest possible way. Apple tends to be pretty good in this area compared to a lot of PC's. I also beilive the iMac Pro will be based on a yet-to-be-released Xeon with general Core i parity in terms of hardware accelerated features. Or potentially they can achieve similar performance with the new AVX-instructions or through the GPU.

Time will tell for sure!


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 11, 2017 at 9:57:09 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So back to what I said before - if your peripheral needs are simple, then a laptop, display, and a couple of wires to externals are fine, but that's not reality in most pro environments. There, desktops are still needed."

Just to expand on this, here's a list of the connectivity on the aforementioned Mac Pro in that edit suite

2 external displays (each takes a TB port and a USB port)
Broadcast monitor (fed via SDI)
USB-connected extended keyboard
Wireless mouse (requires USB key, which can be plugged into keyboard)
Resolve Studio dongle (can be plugged into one of the displays)
Ethernet connection
BMD UltraStudio Express for SDI video to video display (this also supplies audio to a small mixer)
Small Mackie audio mixer
Powered audio speakers (connected to the mixer)
TB-connected local Pegasus RAID
TimeMachine drive (loops off of the TB on the CD dock)
Camera card reader (connected to USB on one of the displays)
CalDigit dock (connected via TB)
Raw drive dock (connected to the CD dock)
HMDI to the flat panel display (which is also the third Mac display device - connected via the CD dock - Mac itself won't support 3 displays)
TB-to-10GigE adapter for the QNAP NAS connection (connects via TB)
CD dock is also used to connect various external USB/USB3.0 transfer drives
Printer (connected wirelessly)

So as you can see, a laptop - even with an external dock - would run out of spigots. ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 11, 2017 at 10:48:07 pm

[Oliver Peters] "2 external displays (each takes a TB port and a USB port)
Broadcast monitor (fed via SDI)
USB-connected extended keyboard
Wireless mouse (requires USB key, which can be plugged into keyboard)
Resolve Studio dongle (can be plugged into one of the displays)
Ethernet connection
BMD UltraStudio Express for SDI video to video display (this also supplies audio to a small mixer)
Small Mackie audio mixer
Powered audio speakers (connected to the mixer)
TB-connected local Pegasus RAID
TimeMachine drive (loops off of the TB on the CD dock)
Camera card reader (connected to USB on one of the displays)
CalDigit dock (connected via TB)
Raw drive dock (connected to the CD dock)
HMDI to the flat panel display (which is also the third Mac display device - connected via the CD dock - Mac itself won't support 3 displays)
TB-to-10GigE adapter for the QNAP NAS connection (connects via TB)
CD dock is also used to connect various external USB/USB3.0 transfer drives
Printer (connected wirelessly)

So as you can see, a laptop - even with an external dock - would run out of spigots. ☺

- Oliver"




I guess my response would be to put a red check next to the ones that are necessary rather than merely for convenience. There are LOTS of preference choice/options there. And a HUGE reflection of a production process that was necessary years ago, but entirely optional today.

I totally get the path that got you there. It did the same for me up until 2011. That was when I started migrating to simpler setups leading to closing down my haybarn suite a couple of years ago. (I wrote a couple of times about how shocked I was to find I had something like 130 edison outlets in use surrounding my desk.)

That was then, this is now.

I've cut that to about 30 - and of those, only FIVE are day-to-day mission critical: one computer, left and right powered speakers, one wall wart for the recorder for my VO Stuff - plus an AC connected backup Time Machine drive inside my firesafe.

Actually, thinking about it, the powered speakers don't go on the road, and the H4n does fine with batteries - so I really can sustain my entire editing operation off one AC Outlet for battery charging.

So many of the things I needed discrete powered devices for are now simply done either in software or via a powered buss where the computer AC is rectified and passed to the tool.

This is part of the heart of the digital signal revolution. The deck motors and pullys and huge transformers I once had to drive all day are largely gone now.

The fact that USB 3 carries robust (100w) power on ALL the ports using it - suggests to me I'll need fewer and fewer wall warts, power plugs and power exclusive connections as time goes on.

But we'll see.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple WWDC
on Jun 12, 2017 at 2:05:18 am

[Bill Davis] "I guess my response would be to put a red check next to the ones that are necessary rather than merely for convenience. "

Convenience = necessary when clients are waiting on you doing these things fast. The alternative is unplugging and replugging various devices. Trust me, I've done the minimalist, 'laptop+a few items' route, and it's a PITA. In this case, it's the "hero" room in the facility and does finishing, as well as regular editing. We also do a lot of things like media transfers in there. So the short answer is that it is all essential.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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