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Bill Davis
FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 18, 2017 at 5:25:27 pm







Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 18, 2017 at 9:06:26 pm

Are you being served?







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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 12:26:47 am

[andy patterson] "Are you being served?"

Huh?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 2:00:01 am

[Oliver Peters] "[andy patterson] "Are you being served?"

Huh?"


Did you watch my video link? You do realize the commercial Thomas edited was a parody of the British TV show "Are You Being Served"? Does it makes sense now?


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 4:49:25 pm

[andy patterson] "Does it makes sense now?"

OK.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 18, 2017 at 10:07:59 pm

I think Apple should be linking to this on their FCPX page :)


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 18, 2017 at 10:49:10 pm

I watched Tom's demo from in the audience. Hearing whispered comments around me like "wait a second, he's editing that fast WHILE the timeline is playing back in real-time?"

I kinda wanted to whisper back "Yes, and on a totally stock TouchBar MacBook pro - the exact same rig you can buy at the Apple store tomorrow" - and the same one people who don't actually edit in X keep saying is "underpowered and lame" all over the internet.

Kinda doesn't look all that "underpowered and lame" here - huh?

Oh well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 12:03:24 am

[Bill Davis] "and the same one people who don't actually edit in X keep saying is "underpowered and lame" all over the internet."

Could you please link me to such a quote ? It should not be hard since you claimed it is all over the internet. Having said that I don't see people saying X is under powered. I do see people saying Premiere Pro uses old laggy outdated code. I've seen people make those comments right here on the Cow. I have also seen many people claim Adobe needs a total rewrite of the code but I don't see the same thing said about FCPX. Many people in 2011 claimed you needed a $7500.00 work station in order for Premiere Pro to edit AVCHD in real-time. In 2014 the buzz was that you needed a $7500.00 to edit 4K in real-time using Premiere Pro. Both statements were incorrect. I can show a video of my mediocre $800.00 system editing several layers of 4K with each layer having several filters in real-time using Premiere Pro but when Premiere Pro does it, it just not impressive. Why is it impressive if FCPX does it but Premiere Pro needs a total rewrite of the code when it does the exact same thing?

[Bill Davis] "
Kinda doesn't look all that "underpowered and lame" here - huh?"


Who said it was?


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Scott Thomas
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 5:01:41 am

[andy patterson] "Having said that I don't see people saying X is under powered. "

He's not saying FCPX is underpowered. Reread his message.


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Scott Thomas
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 5:04:12 am

I should have been clearer. He wasn't talking about people calling FCPX underpowered and lame.


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 5:51:07 am

[Scott Thomas] "I should have been clearer. He wasn't talking about people calling FCPX underpowered and lame."

If he is talking about people commenting on the laptop being under powered it depends on what needs to be done. No one said you cannot edit video using an Apple laptop. For certain projects a laptop (even using FCPX) would not be the best option.


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 5:19:43 am

The difference between PP and FCP X in my opinion is mostly how the edit gets done. For me it is editing tools and features that allow for a faster workflow. FCP X does this for me. No more clip collisions for me.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 10:59:15 am

[andy patterson] "Why is it impressive if FCPX does it but Premiere Pro needs a total rewrite of the code when it does the exact same thing? "

Because you are on an FCPX forum? Just a wild guess. ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 3:26:11 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Why is it impressive if FCPX does it but Premiere Pro needs a total rewrite of the code when it does the exact same thing? "

Because you are on an FCPX forum? Just a wild guess. ;-)"


That is incorrect. This not a forum dedicated to FCPX. This is a forum where people are supposed to talk about the merits of FCPX along with other editing software. I have provided a link below to the actual FCPX forum.

https://forums.creativecow.net/fcpx


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Scott Thomas
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 6:36:29 pm

[andy patterson] "That is incorrect. This not a forum dedicated to FCPX. This is a forum where people are supposed to talk about the merits of FCPX along with other editing software. I have provided a link below to the actual FCPX forum. "

That's not really how this forum started.


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Mark Smith
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 9:56:44 pm

Thomas edits too damn fast . He zips through one thing, I'm still absorbing that one thing and he's 5 edits down the road by the time I understand what he explained 30 seconds ago.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 19, 2017 at 11:10:09 pm

[Mark Smith] "Thomas edits too damn fast ."

Thomas is indeed fast and knows the app well, however, he's given this presentation quite a few times. Obviously he's got it down.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 25, 2017 at 12:00:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Thomas is indeed fast and knows the app well, however, he's given this presentation quite a few times. Obviously he's got it down."

I recently had the pleasure of working with him (again) in London and yes, he is the fastest X editor. Period. Not only is seemingly every imaginable shortcut second nature to him (let alone every function), but he has added extensive shortcuts of his own to speed matters up even more. But of course next to his unparalleled TECHNICAL expertise, he's just plain a superb editor. The fact that he uses X may not be what gets him his jobs, but it certainly is a contributing factor to him getting REbooked.

Oddly, people that pay the bills love FAST. 😏

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Tony West
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 20, 2017 at 2:05:54 pm

[Mark Smith] "Thomas edits too damn fast . He zips through one thing, I'm still absorbing that one thing and he's 5 edits down the road by the time I understand what he explained 30 seconds ago."

Yes, his whole focus is set on showing that he can work faster in "X" then other apps. He would know his demo in another app also but still could not work as fast. I guess he figures there are already demos that go into detail online.

"I'm not having to deal with string-outs". He doesn't want to do those or "Pancaking".

Not using those techniques doesn't seem to be stifling his talent or ability to land work. Nothing wrong with those, they just have little to do with why he, and others chose that app.


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greg janza
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 21, 2017 at 4:20:23 pm

Speed in regards to editing can sometimes be a benefit but certainly not all of the time.

I think this piece speaks to this notion quite well:

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/05/malcolm-gladwell-heres-why-you-should-slow-d...

Adobe Premiere 2017.1
Windows 10 Pro
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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 21, 2017 at 9:00:50 pm

In my experience the SPEED of X is exactly what enables me to slow down.

Too much of my time used to get wasted in unproductive busywork.

Said another way, the less time I waste moving stuff around and fixing things - patching tracks, avoiding overwriting my prior decisions with new ones - the MORE time I can spend on what's really the most fundamental part of editing.

THINKING about WHY to structure things the way I eventually will.

For me, that is precisely the hallmark of an X edit compared to how I cut before.

Basically, magnetism, clip collision avoidance, and persistent vertical as well as horizontal asset relationships - set once that will dependably remain how I set them initially - means I can spend far less time on the HOW of editing. And that's precisely what leaves me with significantly more time to consider the WHY.

When you watch Tom edit fast, it's not that he's trying to jam more work into less time. He's simply shortening the time between conceiving the tasks he wants to accomplish - and getting them done.

As he notes in the video, he's actually using that time saving to do MORE iterations, to explore things like the question of how few shots he can can use to tell the essential story. Do a cut down alt 30 or 10. In sum, To Explore.

I don't know anyone who'd rather do MORE busywork so they can be less efficient in achieving their goals.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 22, 2017 at 12:37:44 am

[Bill Davis] "I don't know anyone who'd rather do MORE busywork so they can be less efficient in achieving their goals. "

I'm all about iteration and reducing friction, but did you see this post a week or two from Franz about how activities that look like massive time-wasters may actually encourage ideation? Easily the most interesting post on this forum in some time:

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/95375

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 22, 2017 at 1:29:44 am

[Walter Soyka] "I'm all about iteration and reducing friction, but did you see this post a week or two from Franz about how activities that look like massive time-wasters may actually encourage ideation?"

I've never had a problem with something to "encourage ideation."

Not to say I haven't experienced that.

I've seen shows and visited museums and found those actions triggering all sorts of "creative ideation" - however, I've also sat in boring airport lounges and sat at my desk looking at precisely the same thing I've seen for 1,000 prior hours and had creative ideas pop up.

If someone else needs or wants a particular trigger for their creativity - even if it's watching a render bar crawl across the screen - they should go for it.

I do not.

Moreover, I find that the excitement of losing annoyances like having to fix problems I'd once associated with tracked timelines makes me happy. And being happier is it's own reward.

Just me, of course. I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel much more creative when they are struggling or miserable. I can only wish them well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 22, 2017 at 1:36:02 am

walter, thanks for making us aware of that fascinating thread.

I fall heavily into the camp of needing a lot of time to figure out an edit. I thoroughly appreciate the efficiency tools that continuously improve in NLE's but for me none of that efficiency is as important as taking the necessary time to let an edit evolve into what it's supposed to become.

Adobe Premiere 2017.1
Windows 10 Pro
Samsung SSD 850 EVO system
Samsung SSD 850 EVO Adobe cache
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Scott Thomas
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 22, 2017 at 4:14:09 am

That seems similar to what Walter Murch has talked about when shuttling through a reel on a Steenbeck. One interesting point he made was, when you shuttle through a reel, however fast, you are still seeing every frame. I don't know if any NLE can claim that. :)


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 22, 2017 at 11:37:32 pm

[Bill Davis] "Too much of my time used to get wasted in unproductive busywork.
Said another way, the less time I waste moving stuff around and fixing things - patching tracks, avoiding overwriting my prior decisions with new ones - the MORE time I can spend on what's really the most fundamental part of editing."


I think that is in the eye of the beholder and I certainly realize you are speaking about your own personal experience. OTOH, there are a lot of editors who are familiar with both Premiere and X who would argue that X isn't faster, in fact. But it really depends on what you do and how you do it. So saying ABC is faster or slower than XYZ is really pretty immaterial. For example, in Premiere if I want to go from a skinny video track to a larger one showing thumbnails, all I have to do is roll the school wheel of my mouse. No keystrokes or mode changes required. In that example, which approach is faster? So speed, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

[Bill Davis] "Basically, magnetism, clip collision avoidance, and persistent vertical as well as horizontal asset relationships - set once that will dependably remain how I set them initially"

These sort of things always strike me as a red herring. Clip collisions might be a nuisance to some, but it simply isn't something most editors give a whole lot of thought to, outside of the converts to X.

[Bill Davis] "I don't know anyone who'd rather do MORE busywork so they can be less efficient in achieving their goals."

That's really a false argument. Between myself and Steve Hullfish (Pro Video Coalition "Art of the Cut"), we've done a ton of editor interviews. These sort of concerns almost never come up in the folks we talk to and those are all editors at the top of their game.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 3:52:57 am

OK then, Oliver.

I guess your point is that I must somehow be too inexperienced or ill-equipped to judge this stuff, properly.

Which is certainly possible.

But it's also a bit odd that for quite a long time I was a rare voice saying three things consistently.

A) The value of X was being widely misunderstood.
B) it was MUCH more capable at professional editing than the "iMovie Pro" branders were noticing.
And that
C) I was able to get more work done, more efficiently, with less struggle and more ease than before I adopted it.

Regarding C), I will say I always pointed to SPECIFIC features of X that had caused me to form those opinions.

From the vantage point of today, it seems to me that in each of those three areas, time has not diminished, but strengthened the case for my opinions.

And I suppose the fact that there are now so many other working editors* successfully using X at all levels of editing, all around the world, just means there are quite a few others willing to fork over their CASH like me, who must be deluded in exactly the same way I must be.

So at least I have LOTS of company?

On reflection, I'm OK with that.

I simply see X as trying to move things forward.

And (just to support my "provocative" mini-brand) it's competitors as largely too scared to rock anyone's boat overly much.

How else do I decode that over 20 YEARS they have elected to keep things VERY comfortable and safe. I keep asking here and elsewhere for people championing the other big NLEs to point out any significant innovations in approach from their pre-2000 NLE Toolsets. I get mostly silence. It's possible that the NLE designs of the 1980s and 1990s were just so PERFECT that there's no room for much improvement. But I reject that. Loudly.

They've also innovated MASSIVELY in the PAYMENT space, (right?) subscription, subscription and free? - so why not in tool design? Is it largely because they see the financial space as WAY more important and wildly more deserving of creative effort than their actual creative tools?

You tell me.

Enough internet spouting off, even for the Debate space.

I'll put the internet beer bottle protection net in place for the night and close the phone now.

(Does feels like old times a bit - somebody wake Aindreas and see if he wants to come out and play. Nostalgia rocks.

Take care.


* why else fork over $300 of your earnings for a digital tool unless you feel it has SUPERIOR earnings potential through efficiency? Right?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 5:59:34 am

[Bill Davis] "B) it was MUCH more capable at professional editing than the "iMovie Pro" branders were noticing.
And that"


Some people needed broadcast monitor support, multi-cam, closed caption and other various things that FCPX lacked upon release. It is great that it worked for you but it could not work for a lot of people.

[Bill Davis] "From the vantage point of today, it seems to me that in each of those three areas, time has not diminished, but strengthened the case for my opinions."

I don't doubt FCPX is much better than FCP7 but have you actually bought and used any other NLE? I know Premiere Pro CC is much better than Premiere Pro 1.0 but that would not indicate that Premiere Pro CC is better than FCPX.

[Bill Davis] "How else do I decode that over 20 YEARS they have elected to keep things VERY comfortable and safe. I keep asking here and elsewhere for people championing the other big NLEs to point out any significant innovations in approach from their pre-2000 NLE Toolsets. I get mostly silence. It's possible that the NLE designs of the 1980s and 1990s were just so PERFECT that there's no room for much improvement. But I reject that. Loudly."

Who is champion the other NLEs? I think it is good to point out the facts about the other NLEs but I would not confuse that with champion the other NLEs. I let you know several times that Fast/Pinnacle/Avid had background rendering first but even Newteks Speed Edit had it long before FCPX. Also Fast/Pinnacle/Avid had GPU acceleration long before FCPX. If you want to get technical about it the Canopus Explode Plugins were GPU accelerated before Fast Liquid. Also some of the PC editing programs used Quick Sync before FCPX. Don't confuse setting the record straight with champion a NLE.

[Bill Davis] "They've also innovated MASSIVELY in the PAYMENT space, (right?) subscription, subscription and free? - so why not in tool design? Is it largely because they see the financial space as WAY more important and wildly more deserving of creative effort than their actual creative tools?"

What does Apple charge so much to go from 8 GB of RAM to 16 GB of RAM when I can buy it myself for less than half the cost?

[Bill Davis] "I guess your point is that I must somehow be too inexperienced or ill-equipped to judge this stuff, properly."

Have you ever bought any other software beside FCP? If so what what other NLE was it?

[Bill Davis] "And I suppose the fact that there are now so many other working editors* successfully using X at all levels of editing, all around the world, just means there are quite a few others willing to fork over their CASH like me, who must be deluded in exactly the same way I must be."

No one said FCPX will not work. Keep in mind you make references to the past and back in 2011 FCPX was unusable for some people. By 2014 it was ready for most editing tasks but keep in mind Premiere Pro was also getting better and better. As of 2017 I don't claim FCPX is better or worse than Avid, Premiere or even Edius. A lot would depend on where it is being used and who is using it and for what purpose.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 1:10:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "I guess your point is that I must somehow be too inexperienced or ill-equipped to judge this stuff, properly."

Gosh. How did you come to that conclusion? My apologies if that's what your take away was. Certainly not my point at all.

[Bill Davis] "And I suppose the fact that there are now so many other working editors* successfully using X at all levels of editing, all around the world, just means there are quite a few others willing to fork over their CASH like me, who must be deluded in exactly the same way I must be."

Again, I'm not sure where you got that idea. No one is accusing anyone of being deluded. And for the record, I, like you, have been using X since the beginning. It's just that we both have come to different conclusions after 6 years, because, while I see the value of X's workflow, I don't feel that it's superior in each and every case. Can it be used? Sure - I've cut features, docs, spots, and corporate videos with it. Does it excel for everything? Not in my opinion.

But my point is that the speed argument is pointless. I can point out a dozen items where Premiere is better/faster and you could do the same with X. But if you don't engage in the tasks that I do, where I feel that Premiere is faster, then it's not relevant to your circumstances as an editor. And the same is true the other way around.

[Bill Davis] "I simply see X as trying to move things forward. "

What in the world does that mean? Forward to what?

[Bill Davis] "How else do I decode that over 20 YEARS they have elected to keep things VERY comfortable and safe. I keep asking here and elsewhere for people championing the other big NLEs to point out any significant innovations in approach from their pre-2000 NLE Toolsets. I get mostly silence."

Maybe a lot of editors simply don't want the approach Apple took with X. Or maybe most working editors aren't as focused on software specifics to really care. They just want to get their pieces done. Familiarity with a given paradigm, when the mechanics are automatic, equals speed and efficiency for most editors. The "if it ain't broke, why fix it?" argument.

[Bill Davis] "They've also innovated MASSIVELY in the PAYMENT space, (right?) subscription, subscription and free?"

Another red herring argument.

[Bill Davis] "somebody wake Aindreas and see if he wants to come out and play"



- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 5:07:54 pm

Don't sweat it my friend.

You came to say:
Bill's wrong about this view, and this view, and this view.

That is EXACTLY what debate is supposed to be.

I welcome that.

I get to respond to your contentions by saying "l don't think I am wrong, and here's why..."

And the debate progresses.

And sorry but, in my view one legitimate part of the debate about editorial speed can easily include the motives behind the major vendors actions, which is why that part of my post about the financial model is arguably NOT a red herring at all. It specifically addresses why Adobe appears to be so disinterested in serious product workflow innovation that could provide more editorial speed to their customers - at least compared to where they laser focused their sights - which was streamlining their cash flow.

They are playing directly to the part of the market that is significantly more comfortable in the editing landscape of the turn of the century / than the landscape that might be evolving for the future. (There, THAT should light enough hair on fire to bring more players to the debate)

From my view, it's hard to see any another reason for their primary focus in ONLY allowing access to the editing tool via CC. Could they not allow a persistent "bread crumb" version of the program that doesn't always need to "phone home" to see if they need to turn your access off or give an editor legacy access to their own work? Of course they could. But they don't. So what are we left to think? The early alt narrative was subscription was "so we can deploy features more rapidly." But could THAT be the actual red herring here? Apple is similarly delivering quarterly updates (on average) while apparently having no trouble introducing significant new workflow efficiency features (arguably much deeper and more transformative for the user experience) than those coming to Premiere.

Actually, probably this ALL might be a massive RED HERRING exercise.

While we're all wasting our time here, Google is quietly investing MASSIVELY on pushing a monster sized loyalty lock-in into kindergardens through 4th grade across the whole country. In the guise of "automating the classroom" for teacher efficiency, they've brilliantly set kids up with personal accounts that hold all their communications and schoolwork interactions - and set those accounts to follow the student for life, migrating across schools and even states.

When those kids hit their teens, you want to bet Google doesn't have a series of cloud video editing/sharing apps just waiting for them?

Why waste time learning ANY new OS or App when you've already been using one since you were 6 years old?

Cheap Chromebook and your "private" cloud.

Our whole little game may already be rearranging virtual deck chairs on the Titanic.

And we just don't see it yet.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 7:01:56 pm

[Bill Davis] "Apple is similarly delivering quarterly updates (on average) while apparently having no trouble introducing significant new workflow efficiency features (arguably much deeper and more transformative for the user experience) than those coming to Premiere."

Could you please create a short demo showing the FCPX alternative to Adobe's Anywhere? Having said that FCPX might support VR now but Premiere Pro has done it for a while. You may not need Adobe Anywhere or VR for your work flow but some people do.

I don't see Adobe users saying the CC is awesome. I wish we could go back the CS days.


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 8:42:35 pm

[Bill Davis] " It specifically addresses why Adobe appears to be so disinterested in serious product workflow innovation that could provide more editorial speed to their customers - at least compared to where they laser focused their sights - which was streamlining their cash flow. "

I don't think it's fair to say that Adobe is "disinterested in serious product workflow innovation that could provide more editorial speed to their customers." Adobe thinks very broadly about content creation, and we're still in early days of cloud-enabled media creation, publishing and analytics.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 8:49:46 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I don't think it's fair to say that Adobe is "disinterested in serious product workflow innovation that could provide more editorial speed to their customers.""

Maybe Bill really did mean "disinterested" and not "uninterested" which is what you have taken him to mean.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 9:00:49 pm

[Bill Davis] "And sorry but, in my view one legitimate part of the debate about editorial speed can easily include the motives behind the major vendors actions, which is why that part of my post about the financial model is arguably NOT a red herring at all. It specifically addresses why Adobe appears to be so disinterested in serious product workflow innovation that could provide more editorial speed to their customers - at least compared to where they laser focused their sights - which was streamlining their cash flow."

Seems like a pretty cynical attitude, don't ya' think? If business models are the determining factor, you can write off FCPX, because Blackmagic is going to win that one at free. Not to mention HitFilm, Media 100, and Lightworks. Which is why I say it's a red herring, because the spiral is always downhill. Why do you think plug-in developers are having such a hard time these days?

I just don't see how you can say Adobe is disinterested in serious product workflow innovation. From where I sit Adobe is all about workflow and Apple isn't, but we'll simply have to agree to disagree. The key difference between the two is that Adobe actually listens to the input of their customers without giving them something that's totally reimagined. Adobe has been pretty honest about the fact that they are happy to "borrow" good ideas from the outside, so it's just a different way of interacting with the customers. Their involvement with marquee feature films has led directly to product development changes. I'm not sure the same can be said for FCPX. Granted, paying attention to the customer leads to staying close to a recognizable product design, but "skating to where the puck will be" proved to be a big mistake for Apple with the Mac Pro.

[Bill Davis] "When those kids hit their teens, you want to bet Google doesn't have a series of cloud video editing/sharing apps just waiting for them?
Why waste time learning ANY new OS or App when you've already been using one since you were 6 years old?
Cheap Chromebook and your "private" cloud.
Our whole little game may already be rearranging virtual deck chairs on the Titanic.
And we just don't see it yet."


And Apple execs sitting in their Cupertino space ship wondering what the heck happened! ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mark Raudonis
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 5:59:48 pm

Bill,

While you were holed up in the FCP suite at NAB, Black Magic Designs dropped a bomb on the post community that seems to have been missed by most everyone engaged in this debate. I'm talking about the addition of Fairlight to Resolve 14.

Look down the index and see Marco's review of Fairlight audio mixing suite. This is starting to turn heads and raise eyebrows. I'm just saying. Y'all better start framing the FCP debate as a FOUR WAY horse race: FCP, PPRO, AVID, and now Resolve.



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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 6:19:47 pm

[Mark Raudonis] "Look down the index and see Marco's review of Fairlight audio mixing suite. This is starting to turn heads and raise eyebrows. I'm just saying. Y'all better start framing the FCP debate as a FOUR WAY horse race: FCP, PPRO, AVID, and now Resolve.
"


Yes but Resolve still has those "turn of the century" tracks, with all the clip collisions and track patching problems that plagued us all for years......apparently


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 12:57:20 am

[Steve Connor] "Yes but Resolve still has those "turn of the century" tracks, with all the clip collisions and track patching problems that plagued us all for years......apparently"

I said at the beginning of the X debate about mag timelines to avoid clip collision was that there was another way which added a great way to keep the organisational aspect of tracks without worrying about the overwrite problems.

Clip layering is the Fairlight way and when you get the hang of it you will understand why I though the original magnetic timeline was a limited clumsy way to solve that problem. Clearly Apple thought so too so they developed roles and lanes to try and put back in the power of track and bussing processing. Lots of X editors think there is still room for improvement. Fairlight in Resolve however gives editors what I have always considered to be a superior solution with the advantage of keeping a better method of visual organising and practical processing at the four levels required - clip, track, bus, master.

But try it for yourselves. To really unlock the speed and power of Fairlight I recommend using their control and mixer panels. That really is key to ergonomic efficiency and real operator speed.


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Tony West
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 1:50:34 am

[Michael Gissing] "Clearly Apple thought so too so they developed roles and lanes to try and put back in the power of track and bussing processing."

I like the no clip collisions in X but what I like as much if not more are those connected clips. That always seems to get lost when folks talk about the X timeline.

Now after adding "Lanes" (for whatever reason they did it) the X timeline has the best of both words.
The speed of swapping groups of shots, no coalitions , and the organization of tracks when you want it.

The upside for Apple having their timeline so different is that they have that group to themselves, and the track NLE's have to fight amongst themselves for the same people who want tracks.


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 6:20:50 pm

[Mark Raudonis] "Black Magic Designs dropped a bomb on the post community that seems to have been missed by most everyone engaged in this debate. I'm talking about the addition of Fairlight to Resolve 14. "

Yes, absolutely. Resolve's shared database and collaboration toolset across editorial, color, audio, and VFX can knock down the walls between the post disciplines: a BMD workflow eliminates round-tripping and conforming entirely. It's hard to overstate what a big deal this would be if the industry adopts it.

Remember when this was what we thought the next FCP would be, way back in 2010?

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1105595#1105648

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/1538#1565

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 7:07:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Remember when this was what we thought the next FCP would be, way back in 2010?"

I remember some folks though FCP 8 would import native Aperture files and others thought the Final Cut Studio programs might get a unified GUI like the Adobe products.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 7:24:15 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on May 23, 2017 at 7:26:30 pm

[Mark Raudonis] "Look down the index and see Marco's review of Fairlight audio mixing suite. This is starting to turn heads and raise eyebrows. I'm just saying. Y'all better start framing the FCP debate as a FOUR WAY horse race: FCP, PPRO, AVID, and now Resolve."

Five way really. Google.

As those kiddies in kindergarten through 4th grade that are now all awash in cheap Chromebooks and SCHOOL ACCOUNTS grow up, and arrive in high school, college and the workforce, they'll have a data trail of one to two decades locked away in the Google servers. All their photos, communications, tests, grades, friend lists, math, programming, and yes, CREATIVE tools.

Wanna bet somewhere along the way Google doesn't decide to build a killer cloud based video editing App? One plumbed precisely to leverage the ever expanding Google data cloud?

Apple, Adobe, BlackMagic, AVID and everyone else may look in the rear view mirror and find that ALL of editing has simply "followed the data" - and that by then they won't have a need for ANY of this stuff in order to effectively leverage digital communications at ANY level.

We were discussing "red herrings" in another thread.

Has isolating "editing" as a thing still separate from "data manipulation" put blinders on us? Are ANY of these current tools going to remain relevant for very long?

We're still steeped in a concern for sequencing. Sequencing is rapidly becoming trivial, isn't it? Data access is blowing by it, IMO. Our choices are less and less about HOW we touch our digital data, it's more about who controls our gateways to it.

Freaked me out recently when I started posting my XinTwo Frame.io videos into Vimeo Pro to serve our website customer base. What lit up my brain is that posting from Frame to Vimeo is virtually INSTANTANEOUS. I realized that the only way that's possible is because both services were using the same server farms. Posting one to the other was just adding new pointers to the same content.

And I realized that the tools aren't going to really matter all that much in the future. What WILL matter is which company you choose to co-control your data. Cuz that's what happening. We're picking the companies to trust with our data. And that's about ALL thats going to distinguish them in the future.

So far, the way Apple has structured this fits my view best. BlackMagic might be just as good, but I'm troubled that they they are still relying on fashioned linear timelines as the driver to signing up new customers. I'll sacrifice safety on a bet on real innovation, every day, as everyone here already knows.

Grab your popcorn, going to be amazing watching these global changes coming.

My 2 cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 23, 2017 at 11:16:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "It specifically addresses why Adobe appears to be so disinterested in serious product workflow innovation that could provide more editorial speed to their customers"

So, I guess these things don't qualify:

- active integration between Premiere and After Effects, Photoshop, Audition
- cloud-based team sharing of projects
- UI opened to allow third-party panels
- built-in masking for effects with tracking
- advanced, versatile media relinking
- automatic music-length customization (Audition)

Just to name a few.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 12:03:26 am

A to F ...

Looks like A was introduced about 20 years ago. Innovative!
B) Frame.io is a smarter bet and doesn't hold your work hostage.
C) call me when these panels begin to do things everyone else hasn't already been doing for years and years.
D) At least a decade behind Mocha which is licensed everywhere including for X for years already.
E) Relinking? An issue largely during these transition from local to global storage modes. Likely the first casualty of all these coming changes.
F) Call SmartSound. They want their 1990s tech back.

Still having trouble seeing much actual "innovation" in a list like that.

It's mostly all stuff that's been around for decades.

Lots of fine ideas, don't get me wrong. They're just OLD good ideas and nothing moving any bars very far IMO..

Actual innovation takes PERMISSION to innovate. But I still have trouble seeing the public facing part of said innovation in a company that seem focused on asking for what kind of painting the mass audience wants - before they set up the easel.

IMO, that's likely to get you a lot more Thomas Kincade - and not very much Picasso.

Oh well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 12:32:43 am

[Bill Davis] "D) At least a decade behind Mocha which is licensed everywhere including for X for years already."

Mocha shipped with After Effects CS6... how do you know that Adobe isn't currently licensing Imagineer's technology?

Shawn



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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 2:08:40 am

[Bill Davis] "F) Call SmartSound. They want their 1990s tech back."

Soundbooth had some really cool features but it was dropped.

[Bill Davis] "Still having trouble seeing much actual "innovation" in a list like that."

What has FCPX done other than the trackless based system? I am not saying it does not have merit but what else did Apple introduce? Apple certainly did not invent native editing, GPU acceleration, 64 bit, metadata or background rendering.

[Bill Davis] "Lots of fine ideas, don't get me wrong. They're just OLD good ideas and nothing moving any bars very far IMO.."

I think we are confused about the innovations of FCPX. Premiere Pro supported the Red One native R3D codec long before FCPX. I don't think FCPX has anything like Adobe Anywhere which might be a bigger asset to some people's workflow than the trackless system of FCPX. Same could be set about editing VR projects.

[Bill Davis] "Actual innovation takes PERMISSION to innovate. But I still have trouble seeing the public facing part of said innovation in a company that seem focused on asking for what kind of painting the mass audience wants - before they set up the easel."

?

[Bill Davis] "IMO, that's likely to get you a lot more Thomas Kincade - and not very much Picasso."

?


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 12:28:00 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on May 24, 2017 at 2:37:46 pm

[Bill Davis] "Still having trouble seeing much actual "innovation" in a list like that.
It's mostly all stuff that's been around for decades. "


You asked for examples of innovation, but yet you refuse to accept those that are offered. Instead you provide third-party alternatives. The examples cited have not been around for decades in their current form. All are examples of workflow improvements that are built in natively into the apps. Using Mocha is not the same as having built-in masking with tracking for every effect. SmartSound only works with their own tracks, not any tracks. As far as relinking, it's not just about linking to your media, but also changing which media a clip is linked to within the user's control.

I should add that in spite of your rebuttal, there's not a thing on that short list which Apple has been able (or chosen) to do.

[Bill Davis] "Actual innovation takes PERMISSION to innovate."

That's a real joke. When did Apple ask anyone's permission for anything?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 12:12:00 am

[Oliver Peters] "- active integration between Premiere and After Effects, Photoshop, Audition"

Don't forget Cinema 4D via Cineware, that's a big one.

Shawn



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greg janza
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 4:17:48 am

I think one thing that is missing in all of these nonsensical threads debating Apple vs the rest of the world is the notion that the debate itself really doesn't matter in 2017. It's primarily a subject relegated to niche forums like this one due to the fact that there's a variety of options and all of those options are good. Adobe vs Apple vs Blackmagic is really not a competition at all. It's only a competition to the sales reps of these companies.

I have no real loyalty to Adobe even though I'm a very happy creative cloud customer. Fifteen years ago I was a very happy Avid editor and then I became a very happy FCP editor. The point is that the tools are irrelevant. It's the end product that matters. The tool set is just a means to an end and that tool set can change over time.

And if these silly debates must rage on, can each company's pricing structure be removed from the equation? The notion of debating a product that is practically free from every company makes no sense.

Adobe Premiere 2017.1
Windows 10 Pro
Samsung SSD 850 EVO system
Samsung SSD 850 EVO Adobe cache
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970
OWC Thunderbay 12t x 2 in Raid10 configuration (thru Storage Spaces and Disk Management)


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andy patterson
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 9:00:16 am

[greg janza] "It's primarily a subject relegated to niche forums like this one due to the fact that there's a variety of options and all of those options are good."

I agree and I have said that many times myself but some people feel the need to give FCPX more credit than it deserves.

[greg janza] "I have no real loyalty to Adobe even though I'm a very happy creative cloud customer."

Me neither. I don't have the need to pretend Adobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Adobe has made some boo boos.

[greg janza] " Fifteen years ago I was a very happy Avid editor and then I became a very happy FCP editor. The point is that the tools are irrelevant. It's the end product that matters. The tool set is just a means to an end and that tool set can change over time."

I 'm hip. We will soon stop editing video and start editing holograms.

[greg janza] "
And if these silly debates must rage on, can each company's pricing structure be removed from the equation? The notion of debating a product that is practically free from every company makes no sense."


I agree they are silly at times but they can also be fun at times.


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Tony West
Re: FCP X at the NAB Supermeet - Thomas Grove Carter live edit demo.
on May 24, 2017 at 1:36:24 pm

What we are doing is discussing the pros and cons of these NLEs in order to give people who come to the forum more information about the products that they might no know.

I learned about X by reading information online about it that I previously didn't know and then decided to try it out.

I find that when I show people the tools in X most times they like it a lot.

If people are happy with whichever app they choose I'm happy for them. I think all of these programs are very nice.

[greg janza] " these nonsensical threads debating Apple vs the rest of the world "

I would say coming to an Apple "Debate Forum" and asking why people are debating in it is more nonsensical then the debate inside the "Debate Forum". But then you and I would have to "Debate" that Greg : )


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