FORUMS: list search recent posts

OT: Fusion vs After Effects

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Simon Ubsdell
OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 2, 2017 at 9:47:59 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on May 2, 2017 at 9:51:10 pm

I thought this was an interesting discussion about how Fusion might be a more than viable replacement for Ae for many users:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=58937&sid=125d92d16...

"I jumped to Fusion a year ago and have never looked back. Originally I used it for VFX, but as of recent I am using it for more motion graphics projects. The advantages of nodes is clear when doing VFX work. It is not so clear when doing motion graphics, but as you become more familiar you will find it is equally as capable."

Nothing does everything perfectly and Ae is very deeply entrenched in many minds as well as many workflows, but if you haven't given Fusion a run for its money, can I urge you do to so?

More particularly, if you haven't yet discovered the indisputable superiority of nodes over layers, then there is a very, very interesting world just waiting for you to experience.

Finally, if you think Ae is a capable compositor, then it's really high time you discovered how much more nodes can do for you.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 4:53:10 pm

I downloaded and now I'm staring at the interface asking myself, "Do I really want to start over?"

Do I?

Really?

I'm not sure.

Oh, yeah, it's free. So...ok, I have a very low profile project with a hard deadline of May 22. So here we go.....


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 6:13:24 pm

[Richard Herd] "
Oh, yeah, it's free. So...ok, I have a very low profile project with a hard deadline of May 22. So here we go....."


I would be interested in hearing your opinions about working in Fusion after the project!

Shawn



Return to posts index


Richard Herd
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 6:58:52 pm

ok.

Let me also say how well written the support documentation is. Nicely done!


Return to posts index

David Mathis
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 7:03:55 pm

I am giving Fusion a try. I love working with nodes as they are very flexible. There is still the bottleneck of the Fusion Clip Connection (whatever it is called). Resolve has to do some rendering, then you have to wait for Fusion to open and then you have to render again for everything to update back in Resolve. I don't think that was ever an issue with a Premiere Pro and After Effects workflow though Dynamic Link has it its own set of issues. I was really hoping the Resolve and Fusion workflow would be improved.

Resolve does have better playback performance but one still has to render out effects otherwise choppy playback happens. Never had that issue in Final Cut Pro or at least it is very minor. Too bad Apple dropped Shake from the pipeline.


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 7:32:41 pm

[David Mathis] "There is still the bottleneck of the Fusion Clip Connection (whatever it is called)."

I'm not sure what you mean by "bottleneck". Fusion Connect works well for me. But if you have any specific questions, please bring them over to the COW Blackmagic Fusion forum and let's talk about them there.

I'm hoping to get around to doing an introduction to Fusion Connect tutorial some time soon, as I sense that a lot of potential users are missing out on just how simple, powerful and useful it actually is.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index


Richard Herd
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 5:03:36 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "doing an introduction to Fusion Connect tutorial some time soon"

I will definitely watch it!


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 7:22:56 pm

[Richard Herd] "I will definitely watch it!"

I managed to get this together today:







I hope it's useful to you.

There are a few curious little corners that I am sure BMD will iron out soon enough but I really do enjoy using Fusion Connect. For me it's a case of: "it just works" - just the right combination of power and simplicity.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 9:39:03 pm

These have all been very helpful!


Return to posts index


Richard Herd
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 5:07:57 pm

[David Mathis] "then you have to wait for Fusion to open and then you have to render again for everything to update back in Resolve. I don't think that was ever an issue with a Premiere Pro and After Effects workflow though Dynamic Link has it its own set of issues"

I love Dynamic Link. Adobe has built great tools. I just think there is a basic dilemma in rendering a "video" v. rendering a "graphic." I'm not sure that's ever going away.


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 8:44:14 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I would be interested in hearing your opinions about working in Fusion after the project!"

One question I keep meaning to ask you, since I know you are a seriously hardcore 3D user, and that's what you do with your multi-pass renders.

For my part, I really enjoy putting these together using a linear workflow in Fusion. Using nodal compositing for this seems to me to mean that you can go places very easily that are either very cumbersome or almost not possible at all in After Effects.

Are you using Ae for this or is that where you use Nuke? Or something else?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 10:16:30 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on May 4, 2017 at 10:32:56 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Shawn Miller] "I would be interested in hearing your opinions about working in Fusion after the project!"

One question I keep meaning to ask you, since I know you are a seriously hardcore 3D user, and that's what you do with your multi-pass renders.

For my part, I really enjoy putting these together using a linear workflow in Fusion. Using nodal compositing for this seems to me to mean that you can go places very easily that are either very cumbersome or almost not possible at all in After Effects.

Are you using Ae for this or is that where you use Nuke? Or something else?"


Hey Simon,

Yes, you're completely correct. I still work in linear in AE sometimes, but multi-pass compositing can be a bit of a hassle using that tool... it's just easier to isolate elements in a shot and move up and down the 'processing chain' in a node based system. I use AE for straightforward 'lite' compositing; text and graphics integration with live action video, simple shots that don't have a lot of elements, etc. For everything else, Fusion has turned out to be the best tool for the job. I don't pretend to know it well, but I'm still learning. ☺

EDIT: I miss Conduit! :-)

Shawn



Return to posts index


Simon Ubsdell
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 5, 2017 at 10:25:17 am

[Shawn Miller] "Fusion has turned out to be the best tool for the job."

That's cool! I had thought you were a Nuke user.

It would be fascinating to hear a bit more detail about your compositing workflow for this - if anybody should do a tutorial on this it should be you not me!

There are several advantages that stand out for me but the two main ones that I can think of right now are a) the ability to pipe anything anywhere at any time (which means you can be massively more sophisticated with the way you actually composite the multi-pass elements), and b) the ease of applying Effect Masks to filters, which doesn't just have productivity benefits, it also facilitates a lot more creative possibilities.

[Shawn Miller] "EDIT: I miss Conduit! :-)"

Actually I think Conduit is still going and it's now free. But I totally agree! It was my gateway drug into compositing, and ridiculously powerful and sophisticated when you dug deep into it.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 5, 2017 at 6:19:09 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on May 5, 2017 at 6:25:09 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Shawn Miller] "Fusion has turned out to be the best tool for the job."

That's cool! I had thought you were a Nuke user."


I was actually in the process of learning Nuke and strongly considering buying a license... then Mamba and Fusion came along around the same time (I think). I kind of liked Mamba, but Fusion just felt more mature and intuitive - I've been in the process of learning it ever since. ☺

[Simon Ubsdell] "It would be fascinating to hear a bit more detail about your compositing workflow for this - if anybody should do a tutorial on this it should be you not me!"

Ha ha, this would probably never have occurred to me... I'm still learning myself, but who knows, someone might find my style of working useful - I've got a pretty fun live action short involving a CG drone coming up, maybe I'll tutorialize some bits from that project.

[Simon Ubsdell] "There are several advantages that stand out for me but the two main ones that I can think of right now are a) the ability to pipe anything anywhere at any time (which means you can be massively more sophisticated with the way you actually composite the multi-pass elements), and b) the ease of applying Effect Masks to filters, which doesn't just have productivity benefits, it also facilitates a lot more creative possibilities."

Completely agree, node based compositing reminds me of my old days of audio recording - you could build out completely different effects using different compressors, exciters, reverb units etc, and then pipe anything into and out of those systems - want to change the effect? Just bypass that exciter module and pipe in the EQ... or keep that chain on standby, build another effect with completely different units and patch THAT into the mix... or combine both effects chains in a submix... if your patchbay was properly labeled, you could quickly do just about anything. ☺

[Simon Ubsdell] "Actually I think Conduit is still going and it's now free."

Yes, but now it's Mac only. I agree on everything else though, it was the first application that made compositing fun for me.

Shawn



Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 5, 2017 at 7:45:17 pm

[Shawn Miller] "maybe I'll tutorialize some bits from that project. "

Please do. I'd really like to see that!

[Shawn Miller] "node based compositing reminds me of my old days of audio recording"

That's a really interesting analogy - I too started out in audio back in the patchbay days so I see exactly what you mean.

As you say, it's having the freedom to make those instant connections (so different from the layer-based model where it's so much more of a hassle) that means you experiment with stuff that you'd never otherwise try. I doubt I'm anywhere near your level when it comes to multi-pass 3D but I've been really pleased with some of the results I've got back in Fusion for exactly that reason. My compositions end up looking seriously messy with scores of criss-crossing noodles but all those experiments really add to the finished result.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index


Shawn Miller
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 5, 2017 at 9:13:32 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Shawn Miller] "maybe I'll tutorialize some bits from that project. "

Please do. I'd really like to see that!"


Definitely! It might be something fun to share with the Fusion community.

[Simon Ubsdell] "That's a really interesting analogy - I too started out in audio back in the patchbay days so I see exactly what you mean."

Ha ha, that's awesome. I'm always surprised to see how many of us started out on effects racks, multitrack recorders, sequencers and the like, but ended up working with digital video.

[Simon Ubsdell] "I doubt I'm anywhere near your level when it comes to multi-pass 3D but I've been really pleased with some of the results I've got back in Fusion for exactly that reason."

I'm not so sure about that, but let me know if you ever want to passes to play around with... I'm always rendering stuff out for test and POCs; UVW, motion vector, depth, ID mattes, object mattes, normal, etc... ☺

BTW, are you still working with Modo? Which renderer are you using?

Shawn

Shawn



Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 5, 2017 at 1:33:30 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "
For my part, I really enjoy putting these together using a linear workflow in Fusion. "


Does this mean that there's a multipass compositing tutorial coming? ☺

Shawn



Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 7:13:35 pm

Good for you! I hope it goes well.

I don't know what level of proficiency you already have, but if you are starting out, you may find these two tutorials of mine helpful - the first looks at the issues of what constitutes "project frame size" in Fusion (which often trips up beginners), and the second looks at co-ordinates and expressions, and both try to explain things from an Ae user's point of view:













If you need any help with anything however small, don't forget to pop over the the COW Blackmagic Fusion forum, where I (and others) are more than happy to answer any questions.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index


David Mathis
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 8:01:55 pm

Thank you Simon! Will be posting over in the Fusion forum because I will have some questions. The frame size video you posted has been very valuable and helpful.


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 7:15:37 pm

Hi David

I've now posted my Fusion Connect tutorial now which I hope you find useful:







I hope I've covered all the key points but please let me know if you still have unanswered questions about this.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


Return to posts index

Tim Wilson
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 8:05:28 pm

Thanks for posting those, Simon! I've got one more to add to the mix, in the COW's tutorial library, where you'll find quite a few more of Simon's juicy goodness. 😁



Blackmagic Design Fusion Expressions & Macros

In this one, I happen to combine two of Simon's Expressions tutorials, including one of the ones in the post above, with lots more to follow.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 5:08:36 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I don't know what level of proficiency you already have"

This is Day 1 in Fusion!!

Thank you!


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 3, 2017 at 11:27:31 pm

BMD software will get better as will Adobe's. The only bad thing about Adobe's CC is the monthly rental fee of $49.99 a month. I hope competition will make Adobe lower the price to $14.95 a month.


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 12:29:33 am

[andy patterson] "I hope competition will make Adobe lower the price to $14.95 a month."

Why would you think this would happen? Why would Adobe want that revenue loss?

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 12:58:06 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "I hope competition will make Adobe lower the price to $14.95 a month."

Why would you think this would happen? Why would Adobe want that revenue loss?"


Did I say Adobe wants revenue loss? You have heard about competition haven't you? If DR and Fusion start to increase the user base by 15% each month and the PP and AE user base decreases by 12% each month Adobe will start to loose it's user base to competing products from the competition. They will indeed start to loose revenue. I am not saying that will happen but that is how competition works. Will BMD offer a photo/graphic design program that integrates well with DR for $49.99? Who knows? Adobe can afford to loose it's audio and video user base and still make money of the web design and graphic design products but who knows what the competition will offer in another two years from now?


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 12:46:05 pm

[andy patterson] "Did I say Adobe wants revenue loss?"

In essence, you did. Maybe not "want" but your idea will do the same. No company "wants" a revenue decrease unless it is offset by a greater expense decrease. By saying cut your prices by 50% +, you certainly are talking about a revenue loss. No way around it unless you see a vast increase in sales volume at the lower cost (or slash expenses, a la Avid).

[andy patterson] "If DR and Fusion start to increase the user base by 15% each month and the PP and AE user base decreases by 12% each month"

This is a bit of "the sky is falling". Resolve has a long way to go to be accepted as an editing platform and they have to overcome entrenched user-bases from Apple, Avid and Adobe. Plus Adobe is playing at the enterprise level and that sector will simply not turn on a dime to change products. Adobe has time to craft a counter-strategy.

What I would find interesting is if Adobe takes a "Sling TV Model" where they can offer the 5 core products that most folks use (PS, AE, Pr, IL and Aud for example) for let's say $25 a month and then allow you to buy other CC products a la carte. Could they sustain their current revenue?


[andy patterson] "You have heard about competition haven't you? "

uh, yeah. But thanks for reminding me.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 4:56:50 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "Did I say Adobe wants revenue loss?"

In essence, you did. Maybe not "want" but your idea will do the same. No company "wants" a revenue decrease unless it is offset by a greater expense decrease. By saying cut your prices by 50% +, you certainly are talking about a revenue loss. No way around it unless you see a vast increase in sales volume at the lower cost (or slash expenses, a la Avid)."


It is called competition.

[Scott Witthaus] "[andy patterson] "If DR and Fusion start to increase the user base by 15% each month and the PP and AE user base decreases by 12% each month"

This is a bit of "the sky is falling". Resolve has a long way to go to be accepted as an editing platform and they have to overcome entrenched user-bases from Apple, Avid and Adobe. Plus Adobe is playing at the enterprise level and that sector will simply not turn on a dime to change products. Adobe has time to craft a counter-strategy."


Nothing will happen overnight nor did I say it will. I have implied where will each company be in another two years? Who knows?

[Scott Witthaus] "What I would find interesting is if Adobe takes a "Sling TV Model" where they can offer the 5 core products that most folks use (PS, AE, Pr, IL and Aud for example) for let's say $25 a month and then allow you to buy other CC products a la carte. Could they sustain their current revenue?"

That is kind of my point. Adobe may have to rethink things because of the competition. Will BMD introduce a photo/graphic design program at NAB 2018? Who knows? Will BMD offer a better solution than Adobe for 85% of the editors in another two years? Who knows?


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 5:24:03 pm

[andy patterson] "that is how competition works. "

The Coercive Laws of Competition.

Blackmagic has also a lot of hardware products. So for Adobe to be coerced into Blackmagic's model, they'd need to sell some hardware stuff. I would like to buy an Adobe OS, actually, running on Adobe hardware.


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 5:55:44 pm

[Richard Herd] "I would like to buy an Adobe OS, actually, running on Adobe hardware."

Even if such a machine could only run Adobe software? ☺

Shawn



Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 8:14:11 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Even if such a machine could only run Adobe software"

Yes


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 5, 2017 at 12:03:39 am

[Shawn Miller] "Even if such a machine could only run Adobe software?"

ew. ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 5, 2017 at 3:34:06 am

[Richard Herd] " So for Adobe to be coerced into Blackmagic's model, they'd need to sell some hardware stuff. I would like to buy an Adobe OS, actually, running on Adobe hardware."

?

Adobe does not have to sell hardware nor does Corel. BMD design has competition form Matrox and AJA. All the companies mentioned want their hardware to work with FCPX, Avid, Adobe, Sony, Edius etc. It is not like BMD is going to make computers or Apple is go to make broadcast equipment. BMD may simply offer a better solution than Premiere Pro and FCPX for some editors in another year or two. It is not a big riddle and we need not make it into something it is not.


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 4:24:51 am

[andy patterson] "I hope competition will make Adobe lower the price to $14.95 a month."

I think $14.95 is... overly optimistic. I could see Adobe maybe doing something like bundling the apps like they did in the CS days and charging $29.99/mo for a bundle while keeping $49.99/mo for people who want the whole enchilada.


Return to posts index

andy patterson
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 4, 2017 at 4:38:19 am

[Andrew Kimery] "[andy patterson] "I hope competition will make Adobe lower the price to $14.95 a month."

I think $14.95 is... overly optimistic. I could see Adobe maybe doing something like bundling the apps like they did in the CS days and charging $29.99/mo for a bundle while keeping $49.99/mo for people who want the whole enchilada."


I agree that $14.95 might be to low but I think BMD might create some competition. Even $29.99 for the CC would be a much better price. Will BMD release a photo/graphic design program at NAB 2018? Who knows?


Return to posts index

Thomas Mathai
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 11, 2017 at 9:48:25 pm

I assume Black Magic makes a lot of their money off the hardware. You can't use Resolve with anything but their hardware, so they could easily give away the software.

I doubt Adobe can compete against free. Look how SpeedGrade is just withering away. Adobe is just folding the best parts into Premiere and After Effects.

Adobe has the cheapest subscription prices I've seen. $50 a month for like 20 applications. I don't think anyone else is giving anything close to that deal. Certainly not Autodesk or Foundry.

Somehow that's not cheap enough.

Fusion may give After Effects a run for it's money only because Black Magic cut the price drastically. Both have been around for decades, and outside a dedicated group, Fusion hasn't had a large user base. Even after Shake was killed, a lot of vfx houses adopted Nuke instead of Fusion.



Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 12, 2017 at 10:40:06 am

[Thomas Mathai] "You can't use Resolve with anything but their hardware"

Is this accurate?

[Thomas Mathai] " $50 a month for like 20 applications."

I would pay $25 for the four I really want. I don't want 16 extra apps I won't use.

Scott Witthaus
Owner, 1708 Inc./Editorial
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

Tero Ahlfors
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 12, 2017 at 12:21:27 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "
Is this accurate?"


You have to use a Blackmagic I/O if you want to monitor your image. For what is mainly a grading software that's pretty critical.


Return to posts index

Thomas Mathai
Re: OT: Fusion vs After Effects
on May 12, 2017 at 4:04:38 pm

To be accurate I do mean for capture and playback, not GPUs or control surfaces.

Maybe Adobe will do smaller bundles like they have with Photoshop and Lightroom.

Though considering how video is integrating into other areas of media, having the extra apps just gives me more versatility. Some of the work I'm doing now is bringing video into Unity for VR or tablets for interactive magazines.

I'm happy to have them all, but to each their own.



Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]