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Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?

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olof ekbergh
Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 1:31:47 pm

I have been working in film photography and video since the 70's.

Lots of changes over this time span.

I used compter controlled A/B editing in the early 90's, this was a huge step, remember decks spooling up to match frames to make assembly edits, all the manual frame buffered boards, some with built in keyers and titlers.

Any way I have gone through Radius Telecast, Premier and them M100, still my favourite. Now I have M100 FCP3 suite and Adobe CS5 Production bundle, mostly for AE. I only use FCP on a few projects I dont really like it, but I love Color and DVDSP.

I have gone through NUBUS cards to PCI to PCIe and latest is MX02 with Thunderbolt.

Every time there is a new OS update or NLE update. I wait 6 months or so on all my production suites. I have a couple experimental Macs I play with the new stuff (or just extra HDs with other systems and programs/drivers), but mostly I wait and read about what other bleeding edgers run into. Once things seem stable I then upgrade or sometimes skip the upgrade.

I still have a 1999 M100 SD suite that works really well OS 10.4 with M100 PCI cards (3 in total as I remember). I dont use it much but it still works perfectly with its SCSI RAID. It is all real time by the way no rendering static titles or A/B dissolves, and the M100 interface is very similar to the current M100 HD interface. Just not HD. It still outputs to my BetaSP deck perfectly.

So my question is why all this panic. I am playing with FCPX and I really think Apple has its hand on the future of editing. And I bet in 6 months or a year it will work really well with lots of tweaks. Like all other major changes.

M100 just put out their Suite 2.0, upgraded from 1.6, I have tried it but it has bugs preventing me from using it for some of my legacy projects. I am sure those bugs will be fixed soon like they always have been. So I am still mostly using the 1.6 version. But I am just completing a project in the 2.0 version and it is working fine on the new project.

Apples move this time is bold like OSX and PowerPC to Intel just to mention two huge changes that took a while to really work but are now completely accepted.

I have a couple small projects that I will try on FCPX, if it does not work out I will just recreate them in M100/AE and finish there. But I think these project will be perfect for FCPX testing. They are KIOSK videos with a lot of stills and HD and SD footage composited for display on a 70" monitor in a visitors center. I can actually use the real monitor hooked to my MP with an HDMI adapter. The finished product will be looping from a BM solid state player.

Even if this does not work out in v1 of FCPX, it does not mean I will ban all Apple products forever from my facility and immediately switch to something else. I just don't get the hysteria. Panic does not seem "professional" to me.

Any way just a few thoughts and I don't mean to insult anyone. I just think things are about to change big time and once again Apple is leading the way. So far they have been right on in their big changes in my opinion any way.

And by the way I will probably keep a suite in the latest working config to run Color and DVDSP for a decade or so if nothing better comes out. I have a Robot set up on an 8core MP that authors/burns BluRays and CD/DVDs and prints them, for short runs. I bet that suite will still be set up for at least 5-10 years for legacy work. Some people still use DVDs. I still deliver a lot of commercials on BetaSP.

Things change but they also stay the same.

Olof Ekbergh


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 2:20:32 pm

As far as I can tell, most of the panic has not been about what Apple has done, but about what people have decided it implies about Apple's motivations, and therefore Apple's future actions. Essentially, people have convinced themselves that Apple no longer cares about high-end users, and will not deliver software suitable for them in the future.

Many people are now simply treating this as an established fact, but the evidence for it is fairly weak, and every new release of information seems to undermine it further. Humans are, however, extremely prone to fitting the data to the model, when they should be doing the reverse. There's also a well-documented phenomenon where people are much less likely to change their positions based on new information if they've previously stated those positions publicly. Someone is probably going to have to cut a studio feature on FCP X before some folks can be convinced to change their minds at this point.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris Baker
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 2:53:52 pm

Cut a feature on FCPX?! Bwha, ha, ha, ha, thats the funniest post I've heard in awhile. Let me shoot even a commercial on a Arri Alexa and then try to see what happens in FCPX. Sorry, tried FCPX and want no part of it, I'll stick with AVID and Adobe.

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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 3:08:30 pm

[Chris Baker] "Cut a feature on FCPX?! Bwha, ha, ha, ha, thats the funniest post I've heard in awhile. Let me shoot even a commercial on a Arri Alexa and then try to see what happens in FCPX. Sorry, tried FCPX and want no part of it, I'll stick with AVID and Adobe."

Huh? FCP X supports ProRes 422 HQ and 4444 footage just fine. I'm not seeing any huge obstacles to cutting an Alexa project in it.

Again, I really think people are overstating what's missing. There are only three critical features that prevent FCP X from being used today a cut a feature film:

1) XML export.
2) The ability to map audio to specific tracks for export.
3) Real video monitoring.

1) is confirmed to be showing up "in a few weeks". It might take a little longer for the new XML variant to be supported, but some vendors will probably be fairly quick about it.

2) is confirmed for "summer".

3) was reportedly confirmed to be coming "soon" at last night's London briefing.

There's a lot of FUD floating around about how "The magnetic timeline is not suitable for long-form projects" and so forth, but nobody actually appears to be able to support such statements.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris Conlee
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 3:21:51 pm

Chris, your list is incomplete: we need film tracking, and shared workflow for assistants and additional editors. Taken together, that's a pretty substantial list of missing elements.

Chris Conlee


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 3:26:20 pm

[Chris Conlee] "Chris, your list is incomplete: we need film tracking, and shared workflow for assistants and additional editors. Taken together, that's a pretty substantial list of missing elements."

Film tracking is entirely unnecessary with many modern feature workflows, and another tidbit from the London briefing was that Apple has been working closely with several companies that plan to offer media asset management tools for FCP X. Depending on what kind of API access Apple delivers (and there are hints of something pretty interesting), FCP X could soon over shared workflows much more powerful than what FCP 7 offered.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Steven Gonzales
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 5:25:46 pm

If a feature means a long form piece, yeah someone will do it.

A feature means originating on film (still predominant) and finishing sound elsewhere, and conforming a DI or cutting a negative, is some future unknown time.

Film Logic worked with FCP1 because it took an EDL, and FCP gave an EDL. Sound worked because tracks were assignable and could be exported to ProTools.

Sure, this could happen some day. I just wouldn't plan on it for at least a year.



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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 7:54:10 pm

[Steven Gonzales] "If a feature means a long form piece, yeah someone will do it.

A feature means originating on film (still predominant) and finishing sound elsewhere, and conforming a DI or cutting a negative, is some future unknown time.

Film Logic worked with FCP1 because it took an EDL, and FCP gave an EDL. Sound worked because tracks were assignable and could be exported to ProTools.

Sure, this could happen some day. I just wouldn't plan on it for at least a year."


Again (I'm going to keep repeating this until people quit making statements that don't take it into account), XML export is coming in "a few weeks". Someone will figure out how to get sequences into Resolve, etc. via that route (processing FCP X XML into FCP 7 XML or EDL files) fairly quickly once that's available. I'll do it myself, if nobody else does is quickly enough for my liking.

Tagging audio clips to assign them to tracks on export is coming "this summer".

This is right out of Apple's FAQ. I really don't understand why people keep throwing around time frames like "a year or two". Multicam might take a year. These workflow features won't.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Steven Gonzales
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:36:49 pm

I'll look for your app.

You don't have to state your point again for me. You've officially bullied me into submission.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 3:24:43 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Again, I really think people are overstating what's missing. There are only three critical features that prevent FCP X from being used today a cut a feature film:

1) XML export.
2) The ability to map audio to specific tracks for export.
3) Real video monitoring."


I agree. I'd add that with XML export, you wouldn't even need real video monitoring for offline editorial, since you could give the film a proper finish elsewhere.

The lack of Cinema Tools could also be a bummer.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 3:31:57 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The lack of Cinema Tools could also be a bummer."

Not really an issue with digital acquisition, though, which is now entirely viable across all levels of production. So, possibly the lack of Cinema Tools might prevent cutting certain specific features in FCP X, but it doesn't make it generally impossible to cut a feature in FCP X.

Also, it occurs to me that if Apple opens up third-party access to FCP X's metadata storage via an API (which I think is quite likely at some point in the future), it wouldn't be hard for third-parties to replicate and even improve on Cinema Tools functionality.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:07:24 pm

Um, yeah. Implied an upgrade to FCP7 and delivered something completely different. I don't understand what all the panic is about either. Who would ever need to open an old project? Or buy any more seats for FCP7? Or need little things like XML? Silly "Pro's". What do they know anyway? Eh?

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
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8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Gary Hazen
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:11:58 pm

Relax Marvin.

As Chris Kenny says (over an over again), this will be fixed when Apple releases their API. Companies from around the globe will rush in and fix all the problems in a matter of weeks.

If you decide to hold your breath waiting for this to happen I would suggest you take a really big breath.


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:16:07 pm

Couldn't resist. They're just so cute in those little cheerleading outfits.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:40:09 pm

[Gary Hazen] "As Chris Kenny says (over an over again), this will be fixed when Apple releases their API. Companies from around the globe will rush in and fix all the problems in a matter of weeks."

Good of you to post this observation Gary. Mr. Kenny's modus operandi is becoming apparent to more people on the Cow every day.

And, just to be perfectly clear, it's not the content of his arguments or his POV that's offensive, but rather his methods. Mr. Kenny constantly predicts the future when it suits him, but belittles others who do the same or who may disagree with his own interpretation of the tea leaves.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:36:52 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Good of you to post this observation Gary. Mr. Kenny's modus operandi is becoming apparent to more people on the Cow every day.

And, just to be perfectly clear, it's not the content of his arguments or his POV that's offensive, but rather his methods. Mr. Kenny constantly predicts the future when it suits him, but belittles others who do the same or who may disagree with his own interpretation of the tea leaves."


Does it really seem appropriate to you for someone who represents himself as a moderator in this forum to step in at every mention of a particular poster's name and provide a little light character assassination?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:06:59 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Does it really seem appropriate to you for someone who represents himself as a moderator in this forum to step in at every mention of a particular poster's name and provide a little light character assassination?"

This is not character assassination Mr. Kenny, this is a factual assessment of the ongoing style of argumentation you've delivered on this forum since day #1. And, as one of the forum leaders, not a moderator, I would be remiss if I didn't point out the unfairness of your arguments and your constant badgering of those who disagree with you when they use the same tactics you regularly employ.

Trust me, if I were a moderator you would have been "moderated" quite a while back. It's actually Cow policy to avoid formal moderation whenever possible. But, that doesn't mean it's open season here either.

As the big Cow at the owner of these great forums once said to me, "It's the tall trees that catch the most wind." So, think about that - if you intend to be among the most vocal on this forum, you'd best argue fairly and not to berate those who disagree with you, unless you're prepared to be called out for both. And, I will do it as often as necessary until you either stop, get fed up and leave, or get the boot from on high.

Get it?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:12:45 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "This is not character assassination Mr. Kenny, this is a factual assessment of the ongoing style of argumentation you've delivered on this forum since day #1. And, as one of the forum leaders, not a moderator, I would be remiss if I didn't point out the unfairness of your arguments and your constant badgering of those who disagree with you when they use the same tactics you regularly employ. "

You are not exactly making objective statements here. Some other posters appear to appreciate my posts, for instance.

Look, something about me rubs you the wrong way. Fine. But it's kind of silly that you seem to have taken it upon yourself to go around commenting to third-parties about my posting style, instead of actually engaging with my arguments in some meaningful way.

But whatever. Meta-debating is always boring. I'm done with this particular exchange.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Matt Callac
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:24:16 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "So, think about that - if you intend to be among the most vocal on this forum, you'd best argue fairly and not to berate those who disagree with you, unless you're prepared to be called out for both."

To be fair, there are several other very outspoken individuals on this forum who have used/are using some of the very same tactics you are accusing Chris of. I haven't seen you once call any of them out (though I have not read every comment you've posted on this forum). But I have seen more than a couple instances of you calling Chris out on things.

It's argumentation...EVERYONE cherry picks. It's how people build a case for anything they believe/hope for/have faith in.

"Everybody thinks their opinion is the right one. If they didn't, they would get a new one." -anne lamott


-mattyc


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:41:55 pm

[Matt Callac] "It's argumentation...EVERYONE cherry picks. It's how people build a case for anything they believe/hope for/have faith in."

Sorry Matt, but you're clearly not paying attention closely enough. I have only called Mr. Kenny out a few times, but there is a very clear pattern that he exhibits, which is different from others.

Instead of diluting my message, I invite you to do some selective "mining" of the airwaves here for those select times when I've specifically pointed out problems with Mr. Kenny's style, and then come back if you wish and we'll chat about the matter some more.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Matt Callac
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 8, 2011 at 12:57:20 am

[David Roth Weiss] "
Sorry Matt, but you're clearly not paying attention closely enough."


That may very well be. I have not read every post on this forum. But I have noticed other people "reading the tea leaves" and then calling others out for doing the same thing. Has Chris done this more than other people? Most likely just by sheer volume. He's posted more comments in this forum than any other poster.

When people have an opinion about something they look for the things that validate that opinion which often causes them to be blind to other things that contradict that opinion.

All I'm saying is that He's not the only one on the forum who's doing the stuff that you're accusing him of. He may be the loudest one, but he's not the only one.

If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that Chris is wasting his time posting so much. He's not going to change anyone's mind about anything. Everyone is right in their own mind.

And I'm sorry if I detracted from your point...but I'm pretty sure it still came across loud and clear there and in the other places you've placed it.

-mattyc


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 8, 2011 at 1:52:16 am

[Matt Callac] "But I have noticed other people "reading the tea leaves" and then calling others out for doing the same thing. Has Chris done this more than other people?"

Yes.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gary Hazen
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 8, 2011 at 11:50:25 am

[Matt Callac] "If there's one thing we can all agree on it's that Chris is wasting his time posting so much. He's not going to change anyone's mind about anything. Everyone is right in their own mind."

I agree that he's wasting his time. He believes that it's his mission in life is to correct everyone's opinions about FCPX. It's one thing to have a spirited discussion, but trying to beat down every post that is critical of Apple is bordering on an unhealthy obsession.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 8, 2011 at 1:25:38 pm

I've never found Chris to be nasty or rude, he's entitled to his opinions. If you don't like them, don't read them.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 8, 2011 at 1:54:39 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I've never found Chris to be nasty or rude, he's entitled to his opinions. If you don't like them, don't read them.
"


Hey Herb,

Just so you know, every post on this forum comes across my desk, it's the way the mechanism works. If you don't read them all you're probably unable to see the patterns that develop. It's not about opinions, I've made that clear. Feel free to go back over M. Kenny's posts for the last three weeks and read them all, and then I'll discuss the reasons he's been warned more than once.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Lee Adair
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 5:16:52 pm

So true, especially the 7/X incompatibility. Initially Apple stated that the incompatibility was due the the "new advanced architecture" used by FCP"ex", making it sound like it was a 64 bit architecture issue. Well, AVID and Adobe seemed to make that leap just fine. As Apple has made clarifying statements, it now seems to be due to their insistence on denying that "tracks" can or should exist.

Bottom line - I had an FCP wishlist that included native MXF support, 64 bit processing, updates or integration of DVD Studio Pro and Color functionality; not hard stuff. Instead, we get a bastard product that I'd compare to a radical new car design - sexy body if you can find the doors, 1000 hp engine governed to 90 hp and only one wheel (but third-party vendors will sell you new wheel mounts at an unspecified later date...)


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Andrew Richards
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:11:38 pm

[Chris Kenny] "it wouldn't be hard for third-parties to replicate and even improve on Cinema Tools functionality."

Cinema Tools started as third party tool (Focal Point Systems' FilmLogic), and it will be replaced by a third party as well.

One of the other silly assumptions being treated as fact around here is the idea that third parties wouldn't think of building support or tools to work with FCPX just because a bunch of people are complaining on the Internet...

Best,
Andy


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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:14:23 pm

Chris -

I had resolved not to respond to your posts because it is pretty pointless, however I have to try this one last time.

You are obviously very knowledgeable and very helpful when you clear up misunderstandings about what FCPX can actually do, as opposed to the basic freak out that occurs when users try a new program.

However your offensive patronizing insistence that all the experienced editors on this board are behaving like children is so completely off base that I can't reconcile it with the rest of your posts.

most of the panic has not been about what Apple has done


You couldn't be more wrong. WE ARE ANGRY AT WHAT APPLE HAS DONE. They've killed FCP7 with no notice and with no replacement. FCPX is not yet a replacement. It is easier for a FCP7 editor to migrate to Premiere Pro than it is to migrate to FCPX and that is the way Apple wants it. That is a fact. They have no interest in any migration path for FCP7 users. If they did they would have built one. The fact that this doesn't seem important to you is simply proof of your youth and inexperience.

people have convinced themselves that Apple no longer cares about high-end users,

We didn't convince ourselves, Apple has convinced us.

and will not deliver software suitable for them in the future.

I have no idea what type of software Apple will produce in the future. The point is I no longer care.

to quote Simon Ubsdell:

"Contrari-wise we look at Apple (now) and we see a business that only happens by chance to be traveling the same path as we are. Somehow we have chosen to ignore this for a number of years - suddenly the truth of it is inescapable. We have everything to lose, they have virtually nothing. Whether or not they are committed to carrying on along the same path as us, we have been made aware of how precarious the relationship is on our side. We have been very lucky so far, but now we realize that it was indeed luck all along."

I am not angry about FCPX. Until they come up with a serious multi-cam function it's simply useless to me. I am very angry at the way Apple has treated me and my business. And I will infer from their actions a corporate direction that is no longer compatible with mine. As do many others. It's a reasonable inference. Either that or I have to figure the folks at Apple are a bunch incompetent boobs when it comes to marketing their products. It's one or the other.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Christian Kinnard
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:27:15 pm

Yes, I'm sure several features will be cut on FCPX, someone also cut a feature on Imovie. I haven't freaked out on these boards but I'm absolutely frustrated with Apple and the product they released. It's not just missing only 3 "critical features". You can talk about revolutionizing post-prod all you want, but editors change their way of working as much, if not more, by the people they are working with. Sitting in a room with directors/producers who have been in the business for 30+ years are very much dictating how we are picking through footage.

After playing around on a test project for 2 weeks what stands out to me is a lack of preciseness. When I'm moving through dailies, I want to move quickly. As far as I'm concerned, all the bells and whistles of background rendering, 64bit, etc are coming to every system. But if it lacks a precision, I want nothing to do with it. I started on M100, learned FCP and Avid at about the same time, also jumped on to Premiere for a little. The argument that I'm just not used to it yet, it's that revolutionary, is asinine.

I use both Avid and FCP regularly and I've gone to bat on several feature films to use FCP (and taken plenty of heat for it). Working in LA, I don't see any place for FCPX. Right or wrong stigma is everything. Apple took a huge misstep in releasing this app too early. Things like the Conan Obrien skit circulate on Facebook, producers/directors see it, all of a sudden any mention of it is a joke. To top it off Apple alienates people like me who have long been FCP advocates.

All that said, I know LA isn't the center of the universe, and I'm sure FCP X does have it's place.

Christian



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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:31:02 pm

[Christian Kinnard] "After playing around on a test project for 2 weeks what stands out to me is a lack of preciseness. When I'm moving through dailies, I want to move quickly. As far as I'm concerned, all the bells and whistles of background rendering, 64bit, etc are coming to every system. But if it lacks a precision, I want nothing to do with it. I started on M100, learned FCP and Avid at about the same time, also jumped on to Premiere for a little. The argument that I'm just not used to it yet, it's that revolutionary, is asinine."

People keep making statements like this without providing specifics. How is FCP X imprecise? Yes, dragging ranges is not the most precise way to mark in and out points. But scrubbing is a really fast way to find something in a pile of footage, and J/K/L and I/O still work when you need precision. There are quite a few commands for trimming in the timeline with similar accuracy, including some FCP 7 lacked.

I really not trying to be a jerk here, but having used the app, I have no literally idea what you're referring to with this criticism.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Christian Kinnard
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:05:46 pm

[Chris Kenny] "People keep making statements like this without providing specifics. How is FCP X imprecise? Yes, dragging ranges is not the most precise way to mark in and out points. But scrubbing is a really fast way to find something in a pile of footage, and J/K/L and I/O still work when you need precision. There are quite a few commands for trimming in the timeline with similar accuracy, including some FCP 7 lacked.

I really not trying to be a jerk here, but having used the app, I have no literally idea what you're referring to with this criticism."


You don't see basic need to have the canvas and the viewer up at the same time when picking points?



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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:07:56 pm

[Christian Kinnard] "You don't see basic need to have the canvas and the viewer up at the same time when picking points?"

Not especially, no.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

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Christian Kinnard
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:42:29 pm

[Chris Kenny] "[Christian Kinnard] "You don't see basic need to have the canvas and the viewer up at the same time when picking points?"

Not especially, no."


So, if Resolve took away your ability to split the frame your coloring to compare the preceding clip (or another), you'd just chalk it up to the genius "revolution" of Blackmagic? You wouldn't say why did you take that away, what did it hurt?

Real world scenario, just a couple of weeks ago. Say I'm sitting with a director watching dailies. He want's me to cut in a clip. I know there is a continuity problem. I say "there's a continuity problem", and like many directors they'll say "I want to see it anyway". At two in the morning, I don't want to cut a clip in that I know won't work. Canvas/Viewer, side by side, obvious, moving on. Now you might say toggling is just as easy. To normal people like you and I maybe. But let's be honest, most directors/producers aren't normal people, and imagination in these terms escapes them. Back to my original argument: I am fine with change, but with change on one side of me and a rock on the other side of me, I have to ask "did they really think about the professional editor".

Just one specific example that "us people" seem to be excluding. Now there are many real life scenarios I played out in my head over the past two weeks. I know it seems like a small point, but these things add up. I might very well feel differently if I were in a room by myself most of the time. I have not doubt FCP X will be great for some people. Working on a feature in a room with the same people for 4-6 months, I want speed and precision. Proclaiming they are going to revolutionize the industry when they failed to take into account peoples needs peripheral to the editor is a stretch.



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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:48:35 pm

[Christian Kinnard] "At two in the morning, I don't want to cut a clip in that I know won't work. Canvas/Viewer, side by side, obvious, moving on. Now you might say toggling is just as easy. To normal people like you and I maybe. But let's be honest, most directors/producers aren't normal people, and imagination in these terms escapes them."

This feels like a fairly unusual circumstance.

And it's worth noting that with Auditions, cutting in the other clip, and then reverting the edit when it was obvious it did't work, would take several fewer steps than in FCP 7.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Christian Kinnard
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:06:05 pm

[Chris Kenny] "This feels like a fairly unusual circumstance."

Easy way out. Instances like that are not unusual at all, which was the point of my posts. If you think like that, I wouldn't be surprised if you were on the FCPX development team.

And no, using auditions is not several fewer steps. I explored that avenue.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:11:48 pm

[Chris Kenny] "This feels like a fairly unusual circumstance."

I think if you're making serious money in this industry, your work was full of fairly unusual circumstances. If your work consists of only usual circumstances, then you're probably not adding as much value as people who face unusual circumstances, and FCPX 10.0 may just suit you fine.

FCP used to be flexible enough to cover a really broad range of niche markets. FCPX 10.0 is not. This is part of what people are upset about. Their workflow (which they may or may not have control over) has been disrupted.

A lot of your arguments may be absolutely true, but they're also totally beside the point. I'm sure that FCPX 10.1 will offer way more functionality than FCPX 10.0 -- but 10.1 isn't shipping yet. I'm sure that FCPX will sell a zillion copies -- but maybe not to the people here on the board. The broadcast market may be a tiny niche to you and to Apple -- but not to the people making their living in it. Tape and film may be dead to you and to Apple -- but there are still people who must work with them every day.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:17:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "This is part of what people are upset about. Their workflow (which they may or may not have control over) has been disrupted."

I get that completely. What bugs me is that people keep saying, basically, "There's something wrong with this app" when what they really mean is "This app doesn't fit the editing style I've developed over years of using apps that work differently".

[Walter Soyka] "The broadcast market may be a tiny niche to you and to Apple -- but not to the people making their living in it. "

My purpose in bringing up the size of the broadcast market has not been to tell people in that market that it doesn't matter. That would be silly. It has been to explain why Apple might have elected to ship the initial release of FCP X without certain features required by that market, and how that doesn't constitute Apple abandoning 'pros' or retargeting the app primarily at 'consumers'.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Christian Kinnard
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:34:36 pm

[Chris Kenny] "What bugs me is that people keep saying, basically, "There's something wrong with this app" when what they really mean is "This app doesn't fit the editing style I've developed over years of using apps that work differently"."

But the point is where this app is taking the industry. So, my problem isn't "how it fits my personal workflow", but to push the industry forward you have to bring people with you. I'm saying I can't come along, because my projects and the people affiliated with me aren't coming along. This has nothing to do with my lack of desire to change (which I've said before). I however am attached to other people and their workflows. Even if they are unusual circumstances, I want the ability to adapt. In fact, each director I work with want to work completely differently, I'm constantly adapting, I don't think one project is ever the same.

You don't seem to want to hear that. You seem to think that editing is one man and a computer. But to quote you "But whatever. Meta-debating is always boring. I'm done with this particular exchange."



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 8:45:55 pm

[Chris Kenny] "What bugs me is that people keep saying, basically, "There's something wrong with this app" when what they really mean is "This app doesn't fit the editing style I've developed over years of using apps that work differently"."

Oh, crap! When so many people say "this app doesn't fit my editing style" and all those people have very different editing styles it means "there is something very wrong with the app".


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 9:04:50 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Oh, crap! When so many people say "this app doesn't fit my editing style" and all those people have very different editing styles it means "there is something very wrong with the app"."

That doesn't follow. All of those editing styles, pretty much, are adapted to traditional project-based footage organization and multitrack timelines. A car doesn't fit any of the different horseback riding styles.

FCP X hasn't been around for long enough for anyone to really have a fully developed editing style that's adapted to the way it works yet.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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David Dobson
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 9:18:24 pm

Here is the new car.
It doesn't have an engine, so it isn't a car.
No, you just haven't figured out how to make it move yet.
But it doesn't have an engine.
Engines are the old the old way of thinking.
Ok, so how does this thing move.
Who says it has to move?
I do, that's how I get places.
Not everyone has to get places.
well, I do
well, this car isn't for you then.
But professionals need to get places.
You are insulting those people who don't need to get places by implying they are not professional.
But getting places is the whole point of a car and this car can't get me places.
well, there is an upgrade coming.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 9:25:30 pm

[Chris Kenny] "A car doesn't fit any of the different horseback riding styles."

Sure. Now please tell me how many keystrokes will it take to change one take for another in an edited scene keeping the overall duration of the shot and the scene in FCPX?


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 9:41:45 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Sure. Now please tell me how many keystrokes will it take to change one take for another in an edited scene keeping the overall duration of the shot and the scene in FCPX?"

One, assuming the clip you want to replace is already selected.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 10:32:03 pm

Well, I guess you have different FCPX than everyone else.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 10:48:28 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Well, I guess you have different FCPX than everyone else."

What does option-R do on your version? On mine it performs a Replace from Start Edit on the clip selected in the timeline.

I really think about half of the "FCP X is designed for consumers" stuff would go away if more people just opened up the command editor....

There isn't one by default, but you can also assign a shortcut to Replace from End. Plus, of course, you can perform various types of replace edits by dragging a clip from the browser and dropping it on a clip in the sequence. Add in Auditions, and smarter rippling behavior when you want it, and it's hard to argue that FCP X isn't substantially better at replace operations than FCP 7.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 11:22:41 pm

[Chris Kenny] "What does option-R do on your version?"

It does completely useless and redundant 3-point overwrite. Replace operation worth introducing dedicated command takes current frame in the master and replaces it with current frame in the source trimming source head and tail to fit the clip it replacing. Preferably without any need to set in, out or cue of any sort on either the source or the master.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 11:25:52 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "It does completely useless and redundant 3-point overwrite. Replace operation worth introducing dedicated command takes current frame in the master and replaces it with current frame in the source trimming source head and tail to fit the clip it replacing. Preferably without any need to set in, out or cue of any sort on either the source or the master."

You're not demanding particular capabilities here, you're demanding particular extremely specific behaviors. At that level of specificity, you're probably never going to be happy with a tool other than the one you're using.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 11:37:38 pm

Overwrite, Insert, Roll, Ripple, Slip and Slide are all very particular extremely specific behaviors. Having these behaviors separate an editing application from just something having a timeline.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 10:19:51 pm

[Chris Kenny] "FCP X hasn't been around for long enough for anyone to really have a fully developed editing style that's adapted to the way it works yet."

Precisely right!

You have 2-million editors using a tool that's flexible and adaptable to anyone's style or to a style dictated by a project if that's more desirable, and you replace it with a tool that requires all 2-million users to adapt to a new and more rigid style that bears no resemblance to what they "need" or think they need, and the 2-million are all wrong?

It's the classic example of a solution looking for a need.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 10:36:23 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "You have 2-million editors using a tool that's flexible and adaptable to anyone's style or to a style dictated by a project if that's more desirable, and you replace it with a tool that requires all 2-million users to adapt to a new and more rigid style that bears no resemblance to what they "need" or think they need, and the 2-million are all wrong?
"


It's really kind of ludicrous that you constantly try to call me out for supposedly using shady debating tactics, and here you are implying two million people you don't know all agree with you.

In any event, I do not agree with your contention that the new editing paradigm FCP X introduces is 'more rigid'. If anything, it's substantially less rigid. Keywords are much more flexible than strictly hierarchical bin-based footage organization, and the new timeline is much more freeform than a traditional multitrack timeline, both in the sense that it's harder to 'break' the edit because of new ripping and collision behaviors (which makes it easy to freely rearrange clips), and in the sense that clips don't have to exist on rigidly defined tracks.

You're making what I think is a very common mistake in this discussion. Exposed to a new paradigm, it's common for people to notice what's worse about it, because they expect to be able to do X and find out they can't... but not notice what's better about it, because they don't think to try Y and Z, which are now supported, because they've never been able to do Y and Z before. And even once people are told about Y and Z, they don't see the point initially, because figuring out how to use Y and Z effectively takes a while.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 10:58:48 pm

[Chris Kenny] "here you are implying two million people you don't know all agree with you.
"


Did you miss the work "all" in my question? I asked if the 2-million were "all" wrong. That's far from stating either that 1) they are all in agreement, or 2) they agree with me.

Is this over your head? Or, is it just another one of your superfluous arguments?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 11:03:04 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Did you miss the work "all" in my question? I asked if the 2-million were "all" wrong. That's far from stating either that 1) they are all in agreement, or 2) they agree with me.

Is this over your head? Or, is it just another one of your superfluous arguments?"


Asking me if they're all wrong implies that they all disagree with me, because obviously I wouldn't consider the ones who agree with me to be wrong.

By the way, I can't hep but notice that you completely ignored the substance of my post in favor of picking a fight over a single word.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 9, 2011 at 11:21:21 pm

[Chris Kenny] "By the way, I can't hep but notice that you completely ignored the substance of my post in favor of picking a fight over a single word."

Of course, I tired of the substantive parts of the discussion because that's the goal of your style of argumentation.

There you go, applaud yourself. You win.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Julian Bowman
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:32:53 pm

Personally, I think Chris is angling for a date with the Jobs fellow. Either that, or do Apple now do their own version of the Blue Peter badge?

The only good thing for me about FCPX is that the FCPX forums are a good read and the post launch comment threads kept me smiling throughout a rather muddy Glastonbury.

The youthful cheerleaders, naive and excited, drooling over the potential of this brave new iWorld versus those who actually seem to know what they are talking about in real life application of editing software and are now jumping the iShip.

Sure, iMovie Pro looks great for iMovie fans. FCP is dead. And no, I don't want the way I edit reinvented, all I wanted was a 64 bit editing programme.

Hello Adobe.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:39:46 pm

[Herb Sevush] "However your offensive patronizing insistence that all the experienced editors on this board are behaving like children is so completely off base that I can't reconcile it with the rest of your posts."

I haven't actually accused anyone of behaving like a child. I do believe that some people are being extremely shortsighted. So shortsighted that the 'case against FCP X' has already had to evolve considerably over the last couple of weeks, as new information has come out. A couple of weeks ago, for instance, the narrative was basically "FCP X will never be a pro app, the new interface and the features Apple left out of the first release prove Apple is abandoning this market". Now that people have had more time with the new interface, and information has come out about feature gaps Apple is planning to fill, the narrative has changed into something more like "Apple can't be trusted, and I think it's going to take them two years to turn FCP X into a pro app".

Somehow this transition happened seamlessly, without the folks arguing against FCP X really admitting they'd been wrong about anything. This has happened before in this debate. Two years ago, the "Apple doesn't care about pros" crowd was using the lack of an FCP rewrite as its primary evidence in favor of that position... yet someone, when it was confirmed Apple was rewriting FCP, their position never got reconsidered.

[Herb Sevush] "It is easier for a FCP7 editor to migrate to Premiere Pro than it is to migrate to FCPX and that is the way Apple wants it. That is a fact. They have no interest in any migration path for FCP7 users. If they did they would have built one. The fact that this doesn't seem important to you is simply proof of your youth and inexperience."

If you look at the technical issues involved with moving projects over, it's clear that while it could be done, it couldn't be done well. It's understandable (particularly in light of Apple's corporate culture) that Apple would rather ship no implementation of this feature than a bad one. I believe Apple fully intends for existing users to move over by simply continuing to work on FCP 7 projects in FCP 7 during a transitional period. The extent to which this is not a viable option has been overstated by many. It's true that some shops may need to regularly reuse sequences or portions of sequences from projects years old, but most do not.

[Herb Sevush] "The fact that this doesn't seem important to you is simply proof of your youth and inexperience."

Kind of hilarious in a post that you start off by chiding me not to be patronizing.

[Herb Sevush] ""Contrari-wise we look at Apple (now) and we see a business that only happens by chance to be traveling the same path as we are. Somehow we have chosen to ignore this for a number of years - suddenly the truth of it is inescapable. We have everything to lose, they have virtually nothing."

Avid is focussed heavily on our market, and can barely pay the bills, because that market isn't all that big. They also have the oldest UI and oldest architecture of the three major NLEs. (Why does oldest UI matter, if you know it and like it? Because it impacts uptake by new editors, which in the long run is what determines platform strength.)

Adobe has little more financial reliance on Premiere than Apple has on FCP, and did their own disruptive major rewrite of it back in 2003.

It is really not especially obvious that either of these vendors is less risky than Apple long-term.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:04:46 pm

Two years ago, the "Apple doesn't care about pros" crowd was using the lack of an FCP rewrite as its primary evidence in favor of that position... yet someone, when it was confirmed Apple was rewriting FCP, their position never got reconsidered.

No, it turns out they were totally correct. Apple didn't re-write FCP, they created, as you have rightly been calling it, an entirely new ap and stuck FCP's name on it. I am still awaiting the FCP re-write - it's just that it will probably be written by Adobe.

If you look at the technical issues involved with moving projects over, it's clear that while it could be done, it couldn't be done well.

Of course, as even you have agreed on previous posts, this was totally within Apple's control. If they wanted to create an Ap that was upgradeable they would have. This is proof of their re-targeting. They knew this was important to their facilities base but they didn't care enough to incorporate it into their new design.

I believe Apple fully intends for existing users to move over by simply continuing to work on FCP 7 projects in FCP 7 during a transitional period.

Then why did they EOL FCP7? How does that make it easier to continue working along side FCPX. This is the part you really REFUSE to look at.

I've seen elsewhere your repeating the nonsense about running FCP7 on Lion. There has never been a single operating system upgrade from Apple that didn't result in multiple bugs and editing problems over time; they all had to be addressed by a dot point upgrade, but now with Lion everything is going to be perfect right off the bat? BS. Personally I am no longer doing ANY upgrades for ANY Apple software on my primary editing system for fear of crashes.

It's true that some shops may need to regularly reuse sequences or portions of sequences from projects years old, but most do not.

But I do.

"The fact that this doesn't seem important to you is simply proof of your youth and inexperience."
Kind of hilarious in a post that you start off by chiding me not to be patronizing.


It was intentional Chris, it's called humor, based on giving you what you've been giving to others, glad you got the joke.

It is really not especially obvious that either of these vendors is less risky than Apple long-term.

I don't trust Adobe precisely because Premier is not their main Ap, it's the poor stepchild to AE and Photoshop, even in the Creative Suite. And Avid is the most vulnerable financially. Do you think I'd be this pissed off if I had a good option. If their was a good place to go, I'd already be gone.

I've edited with PP and while it's OK it has some severe limitations for the way I work. I've never been a fan of Avid, editing on it feels liking f**king with a rubber. As for FCPX, when and if it get's upgraded enough to mesh with my workflow I'll evaluate it. So I can happily look forward to having to make a choice between the 3 little pigs in about a year. Thank you Apple.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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David Cherniack
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:06:08 pm

[Herb Sevush] "it's the poor stepchild to AE and Photoshop,"

I'd rather call it their younger, impressive, brother. That wasn't true until 5.0, when it was the poor stepchild, but now, with the MPE and CUDA it's been welcomed as an un and coming equal at the table. I'm totally guessing but I have a hunch that with CS6 the suite will take another quantum leap in integration. Some of the technology in PrPro must be highly attractive to the other Production apps.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:09:00 pm

My guess is at least half of the people who own PP don't even use it, it's just a throw in to them when they get Creative Suite for Photoshop & AE.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:46:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "My guess is at least half of the people who own PP don't even use it"

Mmmmmm, you may not be surprised to learn the number is growing. Especially considering the events of the past three weeks in Apple-Land.

I dimly recall a recent post on the COW from Todd Kopriva, Adobe's guy in charge of Premiere and After Effects customer service. In it was a link to something titled akin to, "Premiere for FCP Users", a brief outline of how the application goes about doing things and the big differences between it and FCP. You don't put somthing like that together if there isn't a demand for it.

And think about this: when was the last time Apple's guy in charge of FCP customer service posted on the COW?

What? Never, you say? Huh.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:05:51 pm

[Herb Sevush] "No, it turns out they were totally correct. Apple didn't re-write FCP, they created, as you have rightly been calling it, an entirely new ap and stuck FCP's name on it."

You're simply playing word games here. A rewrite is "an entirely new app".

[Herb Sevush] "Of course, as even you have agreed on previous posts, this was totally within Apple's control. If they wanted to create an Ap that was upgradeable they would have. This is proof of their re-targeting. They knew this was important to their facilities base but they didn't care enough to incorporate it into their new design."

They could have created an app that was more compatible... by declining to implement what they believed was an extremely compelling new approach to handling sequences. This is not evidence of Apple 'retargeting', it's evidence of Apple being willing to take a short-term hit to have what they believe is a more compelling product in the long run.

This is not especially unheard of for Apple. For instance, there's OS X's Quartz graphics engine, which was, frankly, fairly sluggish on the hardware OS X shipped on for the first couple of years. But Apple was willing to put up with that tradeoff, to have a more capable, future-proof graphics engine.

[Herb Sevush] "Then why did they EOL FCP7? How does that make it easier to continue working along side FCPX. This is the part you really REFUSE to look at. "

There's information out of last night's London briefing to the effect that there were legal reasons behind this. My guess is FCS3 requires third-party licensing that Apple doesn't want to continue paying.

[Herb Sevush] "I've seen elsewhere your repeating the nonsense about running FCP7 on Lion. There has never been a single operating system upgrade from Apple that didn't result in multiple bugs and editing problems over time; they all had to be addressed by a dot point upgrade, but now with Lion everything is going to be perfect right off the bat? "

Huh? No. I haven't said that at all. I simply think that, having promised that FCP 7 will work on Lion, Apple will fix any such issues, and that it's essentially FUD-mongering to claim otherwise. Having made this representation in the FAQ, Apple could now be sued for failing to deliver on it.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:34:47 pm

"You're simply playing word games here. A rewrite is "an entirely new app"."

I'm not playing word games I'm simply using words precisely. Adobe did a total 64 bit re-write on Premiere Pro and it was most definitely NOT "an entirely new ap." When Avid does it's re-write I will bet your bottom dollar that it will not be "an entirely new app." 2 years ago when editors were worried that Apple was deserting them they had this exact scenario in mind - that FCP was going to be EOL'd. Well it has absolutely come true. And this is irrespective of whether or not FCPX proves to be the greatest editing ap of all. There is no practical difference to me between migrating to Avid or FCPX - (other than it's probably a little easier to bring up legacy files in Avid.)

They could have created an app that was more compatible... by declining to implement what they believed was an extremely compelling new approach to handling sequences

And again you show your lack of appreciation for backward compatibility. The fact that Apple doesn't see the value of it is what troubles me.

My guess is FCS3 requires third-party licensing that Apple doesn't want to continue paying.

Yes, so screw 'em.

I simply think that, having promised that FCP 7 will work on Lion, Apple will fix any such issues

How? They've EOL'd all support for FCP7. Who's left to work on it? I didn't hear them guaranteeing to fix anything - they simply said that FCP& will "work" on Lion. If it crashes more often, if something like the screwed up "gap" command happens - that doesn't mean it's not "working." It's just not working well. I also haven't heard AJA or Blackmagic say they're making drivers for an EOL'd system, have you. I don't think Apple's too worried about law suits here.

They were worried when they announced that they would continue to sell FCP7 licenses to facilities that already had volume licenses though. You could see the lawyers handwriting all over that one. Of course that doesn't mean they're willing to sell a license to someone like me, that would show actual concern, and they don't have to worry about lawyers in my case, so screw 'em.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:42:54 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I'm not playing word games I'm simply using words precisely. Adobe did a total 64 bit re-write on Premiere Pro and it was most definitely NOT "an entirely new ap." When Avid does it's re-write I will bet your bottom dollar that it will not be "an entirely new app." "

No. People keep saying this. I've addressed this several times. Moving to 64-bit does not require rewriting an app. It requires taking your existing codebase (probably mostly cross-platform C++ for Premiere and Media Composer), and making it "64-bit clean", which mostly consists of making sure it doesn't make 32-bit dependent assumptions about handling memory, and doesn't call libraries that aren't 32-bit clean.

Adobe did not rewrite Premiere to make it 64-bit. They did rewrite Premiere back in 2003, and it was fairly messy.

The reason Apple had to actually rewrite FCP was not (just) to move it to 64-bit, but to move it away from QuickTime and Carbon, which it was heavily dependent on.

[Herb Sevush] "How? They've EOL'd all support for FCP7."

They've stopped selling new copies. This is not the same thing as EOLing "all support", or disbanding the maintenance team. Do you have a source that claims they've done the latter?

--
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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:58:05 pm

No. People keep saying this... Adobe did not rewrite Premiere to make it 64-bit.

People don't say this, Adobe calls it a re-write. And while it may not be a re-write from a programmers point of view, it was a re-write from a user's point of view.

And while this is purely speculation on my part, my guess is Avid will keep their user base in mind when they do whatever-it-is-you-want-to-call-it in the future.

They've stopped selling new copies. This is not the same thing as EOLing "all support", or disbanding the maintenance team. Do you have a source that claims they've done the latter?

No. Do you have a source that claims they haven't? I'm not asking that facetiously, it would be very reassuring to think that they will actually do FCP maintenance upgrades for Lion. I could wait even longer to switch. That would be good news indeed.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:06:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "People don't say this, Adobe calls it a re-write. And while it may not be a re-write from a programmers point of view, it was a re-write from a user's point of view. "

I thought the whole point you were making was that it wasn't a rewrite from a user's point of view....

[Herb Sevush] "And while this is purely speculation on my part, my guess is Avid will keep their user base in mind when they do whatever-it-is-you-want-to-call-it in the future."

Yes, they will. And look at what this approach to the market has gotten them. They've got an NLE that has lost market share continuously over the last decade, largely because it's interface -- which they can never change very much because their existing users would flip out -- is unappealing to new editors. They're also the last to go 64-bit, and even once they do, they'll still be lagging Adobe and Apple with respect to other (frankly more important) technical features, such as GPU utilization. Oh, and because Media Composer appeals to a smaller market, Avid has to charge substantially more for it.

I'm extremely confused as to why so many people seem to be holding up Avid as a model for Apple to follow.

--
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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:31:34 pm

I thought the whole point you were making was that it wasn't a rewrite from a user's point of view....

Chris, now you've made a joke with some fine word play, good for you.

They've got an NLE that has lost market share continuously over the last decade

Well Apple has just reversed that trend.

largely because it's interface -- which they can never change very much because their existing users would flip out -- is unappealing to new editors.

It was always unappealing to me. I used to edit on EMC, the original competitor to Avid, and then on discreet Edit*, my favorite all time NLE. If they had lasted and kept their basic interface I'd be happy as a clam. If Apple would have kept it's interface i would have been happy as well. It isn't the lack of change that makes their interface unpleasant, it's always been more than a bit stodgy.

They're also the last to go 64-bit, and even once they do, they'll still be lagging Adobe and Apple with respect to other (frankly more important) technical features, such as GPU utilization.

This is where we fundamentally disagree - the phrase "(frankly more important) technical features."

Again, it's important to remember that the context of all this is FCPX's suitability for the "pro" market, and by that I mean broadcast / film. After all that's who's on this forum.

For me, and many others here, technical features are not more important than consistency, dependability under pressure, and the ability to play nicely with others. I need things to work, I want them to work fast. To paraphrase - You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need -- such as multi-cam and backwards compatibility. I'll get that from Avid. Which is why they still rule the roost in this area, declining market share, stodgy interface and all.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:45:41 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Well Apple has just reversed that trend."

We'll see. Personally, I think Apple will take some short-term losses over this, but they won't be nearly as apocalyptic as some are predicting, and they'll mostly be to Premiere, which is much more friendly than Media Composer for an FCP 7 editor.

As I posted over on RedUser, Avid, somewhat bizarrely, could end up being the big loser in all of this in the long run. Premiere still mostly isn't taken seriously in high-end circles. If some high-end shops switch to it from FCP 7, that could change, leaving Avid up against two very serious competitors with more modern apps and deeper pockets, once FCP X's feature set is a little more fleshed out.

[Herb Sevush] "This is where we fundamentally disagree - the phrase "(frankly more important) technical features." "

I was referring to GPU acceleration being more important than 64-bit, not being the most important thing in the universe.

(Media Composer does have some GPU acceleration, by the way, but nothing as comprehensive as what Adobe and now Apple have.)

[Herb Sevush] "Which is why they still rule the roost in this area, declining market share, stodgy interface and all."

By what metric do they "rule"?

--
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You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:00:31 pm

By what metric do they "rule"?

Look Chris, as I said I'm not that fond of Avid, but you'd have to be blind deaf and stupid, and I don't think your the latter, not to notice that once you take the L train into the city, the overwhelming number of editing facilities catering to the broadcast market in NY are Avid based. If I were still a freelancer I would have to know how to cut on an Avid or else I'd starve. FCP was catching up, but if you don't think this re-tooling isn't going to grind that to a halt, there's a big stone bridge I'd like to sell you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:15:59 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Look Chris, as I said I'm not that fond of Avid, but you'd have to be blind deaf and stupid, and I don't think your the latter, not to notice that once you take the L train into the city, the overwhelming number of editing facilities catering to the broadcast market in NY are Avid based. If I were still a freelancer I would have to know how to cut on an Avid or else I'd starve. FCP was catching up, but if you don't think this re-tooling isn't going to grind that to a halt, there's a big stone bridge I'd like to sell you."

The big NYC post houses mostly support FCP and Avid -- they have to, because it's not uncommon for them to get online edit work for projects that have been independently offlined in either environment. As a consequence of this dynamic I'm guessing it won't be as long as people expect before major post houses start adding FCP X seats.

Indie features seem to overwhelmingly be on Final Cut these days.

I have little direct contact with what broadcasters do in-house. I don't have trouble believing NY-based broadcasters are still mostly on Avid, but they're the tip of the tip of the market.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:25:37 pm

Indie features seem to overwhelmingly be on Final Cut these days.

I don't doubt it. The Indie Film market is who FCPX was aimed at - because, generally speaking, their films will end up with a youtube release.

But let me put it another way - if you add up the salaries paid to all the editors working on Avids in feature films and broadcasting in New York, I think it would dwarf the income of the FCP crowd working in that market. How's that for a condescending unprovable supposition.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:33:49 pm

[Herb Sevush] "
I don't doubt it. The Indie Film market is who FCPX was aimed at - because, generally speaking, their films will end up with a youtube release."


I'm talking about mostly Red/Alexa shoots in the $100K to $1M range here, not DSLR projects destined for YouTube. (Not that spending a quarter million bucks exactly guaranties distribution these days.)

[Herb Sevush] "But let me put it another way - if you add up the salaries paid to all the editors working on Avids in feature films and broadcasting in New York, I think it would dwarf the income of the FCP crowd working in that market. How's that for a condescending unprovable supposition."

That's very possibly true. But New York is not the world.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Matt Callac
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:58:43 pm

[Chris Kenny] "
New York is not the world."


Thousands of Manhattanites just flinched at those words and turned toward Chris Kenny with a puzzled look.

-mattyc


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:07:25 pm

[Chris Kenny] "...I do believe that some people are being extremely shortsighted... I believe Apple fully intends for existing users to move over by simply continuing to work on FCP 7 projects in FCP 7 during a transitional period..."

Your belief in this transitional period might be justified if Apple had not entirely cut off FCP 7 sales, and removed FCP 7 support from its web site.
As it stands, any shop that needs to expand its number of FCP seats for use RIGHT NOW in its current workflow is stuck. Resorting to eBay to get them is a ludicrous option.

Apple could have continued FCP 7 sales and it could have kept FCP 7 support on the web site, while steadily filling FCP X's vast gaps in utility... now that's a transition period!

However, what Apple chose to do to existing FCP users is nothing less than shoving a currently-bad and mostly-useless application down their throats. Yet you wonder why people sound like they're choking.

As for the shortsightedness, I for one will be very interested to see what Apple does in the next year or so to convince people that FCP X can actually be a viable option for video and film production.
I have no motivation to even look at the application until it reaches that point, and a lot of motivation to look at competing applications in the interim.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:08:14 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "Apple could have continued FCP 7 sales and it could have kept FCP 7 support on the web site, while steadily filling FCP X's vast gaps in utility... now that's a transition period!"

I agree that Apple should have done this, but, again, I believe people are seriously overstating the real-world consequences of Apple having chosen not to. Particularly if Apple restores the ability for volume license customers to add seats; it's large institutional customers were were most impacted by this. Smaller more flexible shops can always go to eBay.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:24:13 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I believe people are seriously overstating the real-world consequences of Apple having chosen not to."

You mean you've never had a system drive go south on you for no reason? Boy, are you lucky! I hope your luck holds.

But for those with first-hand experience with one of Murphy's Laws, namely the one stating, "If it can go wrong, it will", Apple's choice indeed has real-world consequences and it's no overstatement. Not by a long shot.

Take off those rose-colored glasses. About three weeks ago, Apple kicked approximately two million of its customers right in the nether regions, and no amount of rationalizing is going to change it.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:31:37 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "You mean you've never had a system drive go south on you for no reason? Boy, are you lucky! I hope your luck holds."

I'm pretty sure Apple has not actually sent goons around to collect everyone's installer discs. If you're worried about those going bad, image them.

[Dave LaRonde] "Take off those rose-colored glasses. About three weeks ago, Apple kicked approximately two million of its customers right in the nether regions, and no amount of rationalizing is going to change it.
"


This is, again, vast overstatement. People are projecting their own requirements onto two million other individuals. The truth is, most of the features missing from the first release of FCP X are probably not used by 80% of FCP users. Certainly this is true of things like EDL and OMF export.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:54:18 pm

[Chris Kenny] "The truth is, most of the features missing from the first release of FCP X are probably not used by 80% of FCP users."

Really? I just had to open a project from two years ago. I'm currently cutting a spot together and it needs a little color correction. This same spot is going to run on a local cable system, and I have to put it on Beta SP tape for them.

What part of the phrase, "kicked in the nuts" don't you understand?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 8:56:31 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "Really? I just had to open a project from two years ago. I'm currently cutting a spot together and it needs a little color correction. This same spot is going to run on a local cable system, and I have to put it on Beta SP tape for them.

Do you believe a majority of current FCP users deliver work for broadcast?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:21:49 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Do you believe a majority of current FCP users deliver work for broadcast?"

I only know for sure about where I live, so let me do some counting...

We run seven seats, the CBS affiliate in town has about four, the NBC affiliate has a couple-three, two area production companies have about five, the cable company has three, I think, and my buddy from my church choir runs FCP, too.

That's about 23 FCP seats that I know of, all used for broadcast production, all with tape decks, all in a town with a population of 130,000: lil' ol' market 80-something Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Surprised? I won't even count the number of FCP seats at Iowa's state universities, who all put things to tape for air. Nor the ones at the state public broadcasting network.

Care to make a projection on the number of FCP seats in other broadcast facilities across the country?
How 'bout the seats at production companies that make shows and commercials for broadcast?

Earlier I told you to take the rose-colored glasses. Now I'm telling you to take off the blinders.

And I'm also going to ask a question: how much in debt are you to Apple for freebie software, trips hither and yon to run demos, sneak peeks at new software versions, etc.? In other words, how much is Apple paying you?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:27:40 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "I only know for sure about where I live, so let me do some counting...

We run seven seats, the CBS affiliate in town has about four, the NBC affiliate has a couple-three, two area production companies have about five, the cable company has three, I think, and my buddy from my church choir runs FCP, too.

That's about 23 FCP seats that I know of, all used for broadcast production, all with tape decks, all in a town with a population of 130,000: lil' ol' market 80-something Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
"


Um... I'm pretty sure I don't actually need to explain to you that, as someone in a specific market segment, it's not especially surprising or revealing that you know other people in that same market segment.

[Dave LaRonde] "Earlier I told you to take the rose-colored glasses. Now I'm telling you to take off the blinders."

The vast, vast majority of current FCP users are doing event/corporate/web work. This is not sensibly disputable. I've been pointing it out for a couple of weeks now in contexts in which people have substantial move to disagree with it, in fact, and you're the first person to do so.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:41:57 pm

[Chris Kenny] "'m pretty sure I don't actually need to explain to you that, as someone in a specific market segment, it's not especially surprising or revealing that you know other people in that same market segment."

I didn't say anything about Avid, I didn't say anything about Premiere, I didn't say anything about Vegas, I didn't say any thing about Grass Valley's Edius, and they are all viable broadcast editing applications. I spoke specifically of FCP. And the point is that for more than 23 people in a small city in Iowa, Apple kicked us in the nuts. And it's probably a larger number than you would have thought.

Now answer my question: how much is Apple spending to buy you off?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:24:19 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Do you believe a majority of current FCP users deliver work for broadcast?"

Have you ever heard the old adage "no need to throw out the baby with the bath water?"

You can't and shouldn't expect that a rather large percentage of users at every level do not share your zeal and instead feel ripped-off in some way by Apple's decision to chuck out things at the very heart of the toolset they depend upon for their livelihoods.

Out of the purported 2-million FCP users (pre FCP X), who've experienced a lengthy wait and the pent-up demand that was fueled by Apple, it's hardly the broadcast crowd that are the only ones disappointed. You just like to harp on that sub-culture because it supports your argument and because you think it bolsters your credibility.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:27:35 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Out of the purported 2-million FCP users (pre FCP X), who've experienced a lengthy wait and the pent-up demand that was fueled by Apple, it's hardly the broadcast crowd that are the only ones disappointed. You just like to harp on that sub-culture because it supports your argument and because you think it bolsters your credibility."

You continuously make these sorts of meta-arguments to try to discredit me. It's really kind of silly.

In any event, my position on this market definition issue is best articulated here.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Matt Callac
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:56:03 pm

@Dave LaRonde

I work at a post house with 5 seats (3 FCP 2 Smoke). Most suites have a Beta Deck or a Digibeta deck. Mine happens to have both. We do our fair share of delivery to cable and network affiliates. Today I was in edit sessions all day and yesterday I was in sessions for half the day. I did not have to turn on my decks once. In fact, I'd hardly use my decks at all anymore if it weren't for the fact that our facility master's everything to digibeta for back up purposes, I would rarely have to turn my decks on at all. Most of our clients have moved to tapeless shooting formats.

Most of the time while I'm editing I don't need all of the functions my edit suite is capable of. Certain things simply go unused for weeks...sometimes months at a time.

I think that's part of Kenny's larger point.

-mattyc


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Douglas Morse
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 5:20:17 pm

I think panic and paranoia are the incorrect terms. Pissed off, disillusioned, and frustrated are correct.

I don't want to spend $500 for an OMF plug in just so I can export audio to my Pro Tools guy. I don't want to have to purchase decent DVD or Blu-ray authoring software just because Apple decided to discontinue studio software and support of physical media

Final Cut Pro 7 does not suite my needs as I'm not transcoding 1TB of DSLR footage to Pro Res thank you. Nor do I want it to 'render in the background' and saving god knows where.

I'm editing a feature I shot in May and neither FCP 7 nor FCP X are up to the task. So I have to switch and I'm pissed off about it. :-)


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David Dobson
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 5:43:15 pm

As an outsider (I've only ever owned an iMac a long time ago), but one who uses FCP on other peoples macs all the time (I prefer Premiere on a PC) my observation about the release of FCPX and why it is so hurtful boils down to a very simple thing. Apple lied about about what was coming down the pipe. They encouraged pro users to believe that FCPX would be an upgrade to FCP7. Had they been honest about FCPX, the conversations about switching would have started happening a year or more ago. FCP7 users love their program and they thought they were getting the 64-bit upgrade every other NLE has gotten - and then they would still have the ultimate editing platform. Instead, they all waited, feeling the pain of not being 64-bit, but believing that when FCP8 came out, it would be worth the wait - the most awesome upgrade to the most awesome NLE ever. Instead, they have been betrayed. So they are rightfully angry. And now they are being told to wait some more? That FCPX will get fixed.? I can understand why editors aren't buying that line now.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:19:52 pm

[David Dobson] "...Apple lied about about what was coming down the pipe. They encouraged pro users to believe that FCPX would be an upgrade to FCP7...."

That's what they did, all right. I consider the words above to embody an old saying:
"Fool me once, shame on you..."




[David Dobson] "...they have been betrayed. So they are rightfully angry. And now they are being told to wait some more? That FCPX will get fixed.? I can understand why editors aren't buying that line now."

...and these words embody the second part of the saying:
"Fool me twice, shame on me."

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tom Babauta
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:37:48 pm

I just want to repeat what I just posted in another thread, but still applies here:


Wow. You can cut through the fan-boyism in this room with a box cutter.

It's just like those May 21 doomsday followers. And when the end didn't come on the said date, they still blindly believed the same guy when he said that the end will come in October.



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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 7:12:19 pm

[Tom Babauta] "Wow. You can cut through the fan-boyism in this room with a box cutter."

I take it you have absolutely no use for broadcast monitors, mastering to a tape deck for delivery, color correction, or accessing old projects, to name just a few things. If you did, you'd understand the uproar.

And I hope you continue to have fun with your posts to YouTube.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tracy Smith
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:14:12 pm

There is not a panic, nor is it paranoia, it is anger. Anger over the investment in a set of tools that has just been given this status: EOL. There was no warning, no ability to plan. A shell game was played on the "upgrade" to the product.
Some of us made the decision to see what Apple was going to do, we did that out of brand loyalty. This time Apple has gone too far. Shake is gone, Soundtrack is gone, Color is gone DVD SP is gone. (where was the blu ray upgrade on that? It's been 2 years right?)
Now if we wish to move forward we are going to be asked to re-invest more money with 3rd party vendors to fill the gaps. Why? We purchased a suite of tools. A suite of tools we honestly should not have to purchase again from 3rd party vendors to ensure compatibility. A 2.4 billion dollar collective investment,, that said we trusted them with our business, and we were willing to use their product to help us make a living. That was just spit on. To ensure better profits from the app store.
Make no mistake it is not about paranoia, nor is it panic. I am an apple fan for a lot of years, Jobs has been one of my real life heroes. People can't risk their businesses on things like this. Make no mistake, this time they really did act like a bunch of appholes!



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Tom Babauta
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 8, 2011 at 1:32:24 pm

Hi Dave,

Not sure if you're reading me right. Im merely expressing the fact that despite the obvious evidence of Apple's abandonment/disregard of the current [not future] professional market, so many people still blindly seem to think that all that will change. This is the route Apple has chosen and it is the same route they will keep on trekking, the route that leads to the prosumer and consumer market.

I am a disgruntled professional editor and I do use use broadcast monitors, metadata exchange with a professional color grading suite, and I still do deliver to tapes.

Oh, and I don't get your comment about my posts in youtube, as I don't upload on youtube really.

Cheers.

Tom



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Insung Hwang
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:50:00 pm

Olof, I am a bit perplexed as well.

"There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance." -Goethe


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Owen Wexler
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:31:22 pm

I can answer the subject question in four words: people's livelihoods are involved.

Cinematographer - Editor - Motion Graphics Artist - Colorist

http://www.owenbwexler.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:24:36 pm

Olof,

Glancing around the machine room of my facility I see a lot of hardware and software that has been and gone. I also see my audio systems, dSP and now Fairlight, that never had the enforced legacy policy that Apple has introduced with FCP X. I have never had software 'updates' that couldn't open old projects.

History matters and the inability to revisit is a problem that will continue. So I have a G5 sitting in the corner with both FCP 5.1.4 and FCP 6.0.6 on two bootable drives - frozen in time. I now have a MacPro with 7.0.3 which I now have to freeze. This has been the price of using Apple software and hardware which I have to factor into my business plan.

So no panic here, just a disappointment that my investment is once again at a dead end and I have to transition to a new app. As I am at the grading/ onlining/ sound post end I do have to worry about functional workflows. FCP X will make a difficult job much harder as people blindly rush in and start projects on software that is too insular.

Paranoia? We all have to have surety about our livelihoods. Trying to second guess one of the most secretive companies is bound to create a sense of panic and paranoia. If you have the luxury of settling back for six months to watch the train wreck that people like me have to go through to support editors, then don't bother calling our need to make hard fast decision on scant information either panic or paranoia. Have a little respect for those in the front carriages who will cushion your experience.


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Stevo Chang
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 10, 2011 at 10:02:49 pm

It's not so much panic and paranoia as it is the impact that the discontinuation of an entire pipeline of FCP is having on professionals who have spent time and money fitting FCP into their professional workflows. And at it's core, it is the philosphical paradigm shift that Apple is proposing with FCPX.

Implementing FCPX is not as simple as installing FCPX and continuing working your professional workflow like any other day. It is the fact that we have to unlearn how to edit professionally, and learn to work within the limitations of a trackless iMovie platform that FCPX is based on.

And before anyone argues that FCPX is not iMovie, just look at the similarity between FCPX and iMovie UI and the fact that FCPX only imports iMovie project files and will never import FCP7 files, not to mention the price point of $299. All this clearly indicates that FCPX was built from the iMovie platform and is targeted for iMovie users who need more "oompf".

With that being said, if you want to say FCPX is the future of editing, then you must say that iMovie is the future of editing. And the limitations of the iMovie platform is what irks most professionals.

The stripped down functionality of the iMovie platform forces professionals to convert to the limitations of the iMovie platform that is FCPX. And instead of working in the manual flexibility of FCP7, professionals working in FCPX must find workarounds and purchase plug-ins to do what FCP7 could do innately.

For most professionals, the conversion from an FCP7 pipeline to an iMovie-based FCPX pipeline is more arduous and costly than switching to Avid or Adobe platforms.

Now people can argue the technical pluses and minuses or the price of FCPX or the promise of updates all they want, but the main stumbling block is that not only does FCPX require technical re-training, but it requires a radical philosophical re-indoctrination of the editing process (such as changing project files to events, etc).

And when you look at the philosophy behind FCPX, and you look at its creators, you have to ask yourself where the creators of FCPX came from? They came from iMovie. And since FCPX is based on the iMovie platform, you have to ask, what is the philosophy of iMovie?

The answer is iMovie was built for the consumer, not the professional. Therefore, since FCPX is based on iMovie and built by the creators of iMovie, you can see that the philosophy of FCPX is that it is built for the consumer - not the professional. And based on this philosophy, the creators of the iMovie platform have done away with the manual flexibility that professionals require to do their jobs, interpretting them as 'hinderances' probably because the creators of iMovie/FCPX interpret manual flexibility as something consumers don't require.

Not to get further into semantics here, but even the definition of a 'professional' has been philosophically re-defined by Steve Jobs, skewing the term 'professional' to bleed into Apple's general consumerist base.

And that is the core of the "FCPX is a non-professional platform" argument and the reason why professionals are so upset. It is because the philosophy of FCPX and Apple's definition of a professional has shifted, and is forcing professionals to either buy into the limitations of the iMovie platform, or get out. There is no middle ground.



*Just to clarify, when I say professional workflow, I mean all the other aspects of post-production that constitutes a professional production. I know that many of this forum's members are one-man/woman shops that might require only the use of FCPX for their sound design and color grading needs, but for those of us who work in high-end post-production facilities, a professional workflow goes beyond just an editing suite.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why does Panic and Paranoia Rule some "Pros"?
on Jul 10, 2011 at 11:41:23 pm

[Stevo Chang] "For most professionals, the conversion from an FCP7 pipeline to an iMovie-based FCPX pipeline is more arduous and costly than switching to Avid or Adobe platforms. "

Very well stated Stevo.

[Stevo Chang] "...the main stumbling block is that not only does FCPX require technical re-training, but it requires a radical philosophical re-indoctrination of the editing process (such as changing project files to events, etc)"

Another good point.

[Stevo Chang] "the philosophy of FCPX and Apple's definition of a professional has shifted, and is forcing professionals to either buy into the limitations of the iMovie platform, or get out. There is no middle ground."

Bingo again!


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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