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Robin S. Kurz
Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 17, 2017 at 7:57:41 pm

Well gee. Guess those skateboard making noobs ain't so uninteresting after all?? 😏







And seriously… when Avid, with their supposed status and so often cited super-proness makes a promo video and has two music tracks running on top of each other in the background AND the guy is cut off at the end… really? Wow. 🤦🏼‍♂️

- RK

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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 17, 2017 at 8:42:19 pm

Maybe he cut it in X :/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 8:47:26 am

That would be even sadder.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Ronny Courtens
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 9:29:47 am

I have only one thing to say about this video: I think that Avid will humbly remove it from their website after NAB.

- Ronny


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 3:22:26 pm

[Ronny Courtens] " I think that Avid will humbly remove it from their website after NAB"

I'm not exactly sure why you'd say that. What Avid is trying o do it tweak their storage so that you get similar performance from Media Composer, Premiere and FCPX. This is really to show clients who may be running a shop that is primarily an Avid shop, but who wants to be able to also use other NLEs, that they can do this with Avid storage. Although I'm sure they'd love to sell Nexis into non-Avid shops, I think they are realistic enough to know that this is unlikely.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 5:31:53 pm

I'm largely ignorant of most shared storage topics, but I suspect that the workflow featured in this AVID demo is now considered both deeply flawed and kinda lame by those working at the leading edge of this stuff.

The pace of development in high speed video shared storage space is EXTREMELY rapid.

So a shared storage workflow that was "bleeding edge" a year ago can almost be functionally obsolete today - the pace is kinda ruthless.

That's how I understand it from talking to people who live and breath this stuff.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 6:00:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm largely ignorant of most shared storage topics, but I suspect that the workflow featured in this AVID demo is now considered both deeply flawed and kinda lame by those working at the leading edge of this stuff. "

I'm not sure what you consider 'flawed'. As someone who does work with these systems, I would so no, that isn't the case.

Avid is STILL the only set-up (with the possible exception of Lightworks) where multiple Media Composer editors can work within the exact same project file, making edits and seeing the updates of each other's changes. This is done because of the Avid bin-locking structure, which in theory could be adopted by FCPX's Events. This feature was largely exclusive to Avid storage and for a long while Facilis and EditShare, however, that is changing where other storage solutions also permit that.

And Bob wasn't showing a workflow. He was showing how you add FCPX users on Avid storage. That's a bit different than a workflow demo.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 7:31:33 pm

Oliver,

Unless I misunderstand it, it's the SyncFolders part of the workflow that I've heard the most commentary about.

Currently, the chatter I've heard is about latest changes to X as of 10.2.3 and how those interact with storage protocols. I don't see nearly as much chatter about a synchronized folders approach. But again, I'm largely ignorant about that stuff.

There are indicators are from guys I know who tend to consult on the largest X workflows - in the biggest shops around the world - and who say they have quite a bit of news about shared storage for NAB.

This is coming from people I trust, and who I know work with many of the largest X networked systems globally.

They just are NOT talking about sync folders (note lower case: not any particular product) much anymore.

Unless they are and I'm just not hearing about it.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 8:18:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "Unless I misunderstand it, it's the SyncFolders part of the workflow that I've heard the most commentary about."

Yes, I understand where you are coming from. Using his approach, you can coordinate folders between users and local versus SAN locations. For FCPX to work right on a SAN, there are specific things that have to be set-up on that SAN and these are not generic. As I understand it, this is largely due to the forked approach X takes with media, sym-links, etc. These things are very specific to X. I'm not saying by any means that Avid storage is the best solution for an FCPX-shop. But that doesn't mean the methodology is flawed with Avid storage. This video is merely a way to show how you can integrate FCPX into an Avid environment.

FWIW (and an edit to my previous post), it is also possible to have multiple editors open the SAME Premiere project on a SAN. However, until Adobe gets Adobe Anywhere worked out, this approach is very dangerous. Under the current software version, two editors can simultaneously open and edit in one project. Unfortunately, they cannot see the other's changes and when either one saves, it will overwrite any work done by the other editor. Adobe Anywhere might fix this, but it is designed as a cloud solution, which many shops don't want.

At present, unless I'm mistaken, you cannot edit within the same FCPX library from multiple locations. However, since, like FCP7, you can have multiple libraries open at once, it's easy to go from one to another, which gets to the need to use "transfer" libraries. Yet, you can't have two editors open each other's projects while they are still working on them. That's where Avid still maintains its strength in the feature film and TV show world.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 8:49:48 pm

Yeah, I think we agree on much of this Oliver.

X was designed with many capabilities that might make help it grow into an excellent collaborative editing environment over time - but anyone thinking it's totally "there" right now is mistaken.

AVID wins that ballgame completely, fairly, since it's had so many years to develop EXACTLY those capabilities for it's core facilities constituency.

ADOBE may crack the code with it's Anywhere approach. X may crack it in a different way with it's "metadata about stored ranges" capabilities. The only thing certain, is that few are mothballing their big AVID systems because anything is clearly superior to that.

Nobody does collaborative as well as AVID right now. That's still currently a given from everything I hear.

For me, it sounds like what is even "possible" using today's network communications topologies might be changing fast as data speeds continue to increasing rapidly, and overall data pipe capacity (at an affordable price point) continues to expand.

Now it's up to how each of these software approaches wants to fit into the new era with so many barriers apparently falling.

Interesting times.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 18, 2017 at 10:17:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "For me, it sounds like what is even "possible" using today's network communications topologies might be changing fast as data speeds continue to increasing rapidly, and overall data pipe capacity (at an affordable price point) continues to expand. "

Absolutely agreed. The only impediment that I see is that of increased resolution. For example, if you do any extensive work in 4K, everything gets more taxing - by a lot. Faster computers, faster pipes, more storage. So that gains we make get gobbled up for no real valid reason. Naturally the industry doesn't seem to want to stop at 4K. The only silver lining in that respect that I see for NAB, is that most folks are willing to rest a while at the 4K plateau. Hopefully, higher resolutions stay limited to acquisition for a little while longer ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 2:03:09 pm

[Bill Davis] "X may crack it in a different way with it's "metadata about stored ranges" capabilities."

I'm not at all sure I understand how you think "metadata about stored ranges" relates to the question of shared storage.

Could you elaborate?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 7:39:36 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Feb 19, 2017 at 7:44:20 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I'm not at all sure I understand how you think "metadata about stored ranges" relates to the question of shared storage.

Could you elaborate?"


Sure Simon.

My central understanding of how X operates is that it looks for mounted volumes and applies everything in it's system to those as metadata instructions. That includes it's abstractions of Events, Projects, et al.

So I would presume that in order to share things in any networked share system, you're still going to be leaving the Volume data intact on the server side, and dealing exclusively in exchange of user defined metadata.

In the AVID system, (if I understand it correctly) the central construct of project sharing appears to be BINS - which reside one or two levels below the volume level.

Bin locking makes sense to me with users basically "checking out" those mostly "fixed" bins in order to work collaboratively. a Bins content and configuration won't change much during the editorial process.

With the X keyword system, it seems kinda unreasonable to expect users to protect and "check out" it's equievlent organizational construct: keyword ranges. Unlike "bins" containing discrete clips keywords keyword ranges. These are VERY different from bins. I'd characterize them as "live" where a Bin is mostly "fixed." If all the network editors in an X system are constantly re-configuring keywords, creating and deleting keyword ranges and auto-generating Smart Collections constantly. - so there's no fixed "basic" structure to share as there is in the AVID approach.

So the very concepts of "shared storage operation" that might be useful in an AVID world - doesn't really work in an X environment. You'd need something new.

If I'm incorrect about any of this, somebody please help me out.

And I can't emphasize it enough, I'm NOT any kind of network sharing expert. FAR from it.

I'm just trying to figure out what an X style "project sharing" might look like in the future.

Certainly ALL the metadata is there in X. The database in X must be PRECISELY what makes all sharing systems possible. What seems to be missing is a way to translate how X "thinks" about describing it's media (keywords and magnetic storylines) into what the older system users are looking for.

Also, the Apple X development system is often less focused on re-creating what people already expect - and more focused on doing what Apple does best - which is allow it's team to jettison rigid historic structures IF they become convinced that doing so can provide their users real benefits.

I suspect their customer teams doing shared workflows in X right now are mostly "modularized" with discrete teams working on individual projects - that while sourced from and stored on a central server, don't try to propagate the shared project itself across the server the same way that an AVID Isis system might?

Sorry for yet another long post. I'm trying to learn here so please, if I have any of this wrong, somebody correct me.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 8:47:31 pm

[Bill Davis] "Bin locking makes sense to me with users basically "checking out" those mostly "fixed" bins in order to work collaboratively. a Bins content and configuration won't change much during the editorial process."

"Checking out" isn't really the right term to use for the AVID method as it implies a barrier to the process which isn't there in practice.

Bins get changed all the time, not least because they contain the sequences you and others are cutting, but also they change because they are acquiring new media as the project progresses.

[Bill Davis] "So the very concepts of "shared storage operation" that might be useful in an AVID world - doesn't really work in an X environment. You'd need something new."

Yes, I would agree with this. I thought you were implying that there was something about the way that FCP X handles metadata that facilitated a future sharing process - rather than that it was an obstacle to it.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 20, 2017 at 12:10:19 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Feb 20, 2017 at 12:14:30 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Bill Davis] "Bin locking makes sense to me with users basically "checking out" ...."

Bins get changed all the time, not least because they contain the sequences you and others are cutting, but also they change because they are acquiring new media as the project progresses."


Bill, I do corporate on-site editing on occasion like you. Avid sharing is often discussed in terms of TV shows and feature films, but here's an example that's closer to home. On a recent backstage gig, I worked as part of a team of 4 editors on Avid shared storage. 3 of us on Media Composer and the 4th on Premiere Pro. I was running a MP tower with connected Avid i/o and everyone else was on a laptop. Most of my time was involved in media management - live capture of the general sessions, ingest of KiPro back-ups and clean feeds, and ingest of camera cards from various crews. My editing was mainly the cleanup and export of the general sessions for the web. The other 3 editors were cutting interviews, highlights, candids, etc.

We were all working within the same Media Composer project. Since the media was ingested using Avid AMA (direct media access w/o conversion to optimized Avid MXF media) and lived on the same shared storage in its native form, the Premiere editor could access these files and do some prep to feed material to one of the other editors working in Media Composer. The bottom line was that all 3 of the MC editors were working in one common project file, yet the connected Premiere editor also had access to files. Everything got archived in a matching volume/folder structure to an external drive, so the production company could library that. (The Avid storage was a rental.) Down the road, all they had to do was restore the Avid media files and project and everything would be there. The point of this is so that everything for the gig is contained within a single master project. No need to chase down a bunch of different project files when you go back to it 6 months later.

In the project, things were organized into bins for media, working bins for the various types of deliverables, and so on. In Avid sharing, the first person to open a bin "owns" it, meaning they have read/write authority, while everyone else has read-only privileges. If Editor A opens a bin and makes changes, once that editor saves, the bin is updated. The other editors see those updates by closing and re-opening the bins. Therefore, the optimum approach is to have designated edit bins based on projects or editors with separate bins for raw media. Works like a charm, when everyone understands the system. It's this structure that seems like it could be adapted by Apple and applied to FCPX Events.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 3:30:17 am

[Oliver Peters] "FWIW (and an edit to my previous post), it is also possible to have multiple editors open the SAME Premiere project on a SAN. However, until Adobe gets Adobe Anywhere worked out, this approach is very dangerous. "

Maybe you have more info than I do Oliver, but from video's I've seen about Adobe Anywhere I'm left underwhelmed. To me it's not really project sharing but an attempt to help automate the process of keeping multiple projects in sync. For example, if Tom, Dick and Harry are sharing a project in Avid they are literally sharing a project. They will be working out of bins (which can only be modified by one user at a time, but can be read by everyone) but there is always just one project.

If Tom, Dick and Harry are working with Adobe Anywhere (and again, please correct me if I'm wrong) they each have their own version of the project and in order to kept the projects in sync they have to push a button to push their changes to the other users and the other users have to agree to accept those changes. If there are syncing conflicts then the user has the option to keep their changes, keep the other person's changes, or keep both (not sure what "keep both" does, makes two sequences?).

AFAIK this doesn't address one of the major issues of working in a multi-editor environment which is ending up with work and media spread across multiple projects. If Tom goes home, but forgets to share his changes, then only Tom's version of the project contains Tom's work. Or Dick and Harry accidentally work in the same sequence but they don't know it until it's time to share and Premiere tells them there is a sync conflict that has to be resolved.

I've always felt that Avid's approach of saving bins, as opposed to projects, was deceptively simple and effective. I've worked a lot with PPro, FCP Legend and Avid in multi-editor environments and in my experience it's always been less work using Avid from an organizational and logistical perspective. I really want to like Adobe Anywhere, but every time I see a video for it I'm just like "meh".


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Myron Vazquez
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 3:40:46 am

Instead of Adobe Anywhere I would be looking at Adobe "Team Projects"(currenty in beta) as a comparison to AVID shared projects. It works between PrPro, Ae & Prelude.

More info here:
https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/how-to/team-project.html

~Myron


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 1:06:49 pm

[Myron Vazquez] "Instead of Adobe Anywhere I would be looking at Adobe "Team Projects"(currenty in beta)"

Aren't Team Projects the same as Anywhere, just without the server component? I believe you still have to have the projects in the Adobe Cloud.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 6:53:16 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Aren't Team Projects the same as Anywhere, just without the server component? I believe you still have to have the projects in the Adobe Cloud."

Yes. We've looked into it and that's how it works. No internet, no worky.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 7:32:13 pm

[Charlie Austin] "No internet, no worky."

And that of course is a major stumbling block if you work in a sector where clients require your edit machines to be never connected to the internet. Which I am sure you have experienced!

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Charlie Austin
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 7:42:36 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "And that of course is a major stumbling block if you work in a sector where clients require your edit machines to be never connected to the internet."

Yep. There is a local backup version of the project we eventually found hidden deep in an obscure directory, but yeah, no internet, no team sharing.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Myron Vazquez
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 8:56:32 pm

Oliver,

Team projects are similar but not exactly the same minus the streaming server component. Anywhere tech is used with more added in. You do need to be a CC Enterprise user.

>>>Using Team Projects (Beta)

Team Projects is a hosted collaboration service for CC enterprise users that allows editors and motion graphics artists to work simultaneously in shared team projects within Adobe Premiere Pro CC, After Effects CC and Adobe Prelude CC. It includes deep collaboration features like version control and smart conflict resolution. Instead of creating local project files, collaborators can work together in a shared team project that can be opened by Premiere Pro, After Effects or Prelude. The data in Team Projects is securely hosted in the cloud. Media files referenced by Team Projects can be locally stored source files, or lightweight proxies shared via Creative Cloud or another cloud service or on-premise storage location.

Sharing projects across workgroups and workstations has never been easier with Team Projects. To learn more, see http://www.adobe.com/go/teamprojects.

>>>Get latest changes from collaborators

You are notified whenever collaborators share changes via a small badge on the assets thumbnail either when you are using the icon view or the Status column available in List view. At the same time, the Get Latest Changes icon in the Team Project panel lights up. You can either click the Get Latest Changes arrow or choose Edit > Team Project > Get Latest Changes. Any changes made by your collaborators are then synchronized and made available to you in a new version in your sandbox.

~Myron


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 1:18:51 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe you have more info than I do Oliver, but from video's I've seen about Adobe Anywhere I'm left underwhelmed. ......
If Tom, Dick and Harry are working with Adobe Anywhere......
.....push a button to push their changes to the other users and the other users have to agree to accept those changes. ...."


I'm not thrilled about it either. Basically it's a check-in/check-out system with reconciliation. The project is in the cloud. Multiple users can access the same file. When you check back in you have the option of accepting, declining or keeping other changes.

I don't believe the projects are actually local, as in being on that editor's hard drive. To my knowledge, the projects are still only in the cloud. Also, I believe all editors have to be part of the same team or enterprise account. It can't be used by editors with individual accounts. For example, you can't add a freelancer and have them work from home on their own account. However, if that freelancer is a member of your team or enterprise group, then they can.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 2:05:46 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Also, I believe all editors have to be part of the same team or enterprise account."

Yes, this is correct.

I see Teams (and Anywhere) as a way of up-selling Team/Enterprise accounts from Adobe's standpoint. I'm far from convinced that they are prioritising the end user.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 5:57:31 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I see Teams (and Anywhere) as a way of up-selling Team/Enterprise accounts from Adobe's standpoint"

I agree. Or at least to provide some added value for these customers, considering they are already paying more per seat (at least for Teams) than the individual users.

Speaking of the CC in general, ironically enterprise customers aren't required to link to the cloud at all for installation. I presume a sys admin has to create the installer from the cloud, but after that, individual stations can be locally installed without any CC log-in from that installer package.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 19, 2017 at 1:25:05 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I've always felt that Avid's approach of saving bins, as opposed to projects, was deceptively simple and effective."

This is why I have thought from the beginning that FCPX's event structure could be a way for Apple to deploy a similar sharing routine. Unfortunately their sharing track record hasn't been good. When FC Server was in existence, it could be used in much the same way as Adobe's sharing. However, Apple pulled the plug.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Final Cut Pro X + NEXIS | PRO
on Feb 20, 2017 at 1:35:27 am
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Feb 20, 2017 at 4:08:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Under the current software version, two editors can simultaneously open and edit in one project. Unfortunately, they cannot see the other's changes and when either one saves, it will overwrite any work done by the other editor. Adobe Anywhere might fix this, but it is designed as a cloud solution, which many shops don't want."

Well... A slight correction, courtesy of Bob Russo's Part 1 video:

http://www.avidblogs.com/collaborate-with-avid-nexis-pro-on-third-party-sof...

Premiere now offers "project locking", which I had completely missed.

EDIT: I just tested this today on a AFP-mounted SAN volume. It doesn't work part of the time, so it seems unreliable. Bottom line, with Premiere, don't have two editors open the same project from a SAN.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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