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Oliver Peters
Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 5, 2017 at 1:22:12 am

Doesn't it seem odd that neither Apple nor Adobe have any studio, big-bucks films that they can point to this year as having been cut with either FCPX or Premiere Pro? Seems like a lot of PrPro presence at Sundance, but otherwise, nada. Maybe it's just a timing thing or maybe everyone has gone back to Media Composer.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 5, 2017 at 1:39:08 am

It doesn't matter to me if every film this year was cut on Avid, FCPX or Premiere Pro. If a feature film was cut using Premiere Pro and the producers and editors stated that Adobe Anywhere helped speed up the process that would be good for them and their workflow but it may or may not be a reason for others to opt for Premiere Pro. Some may opt for Premiere Pro for it's integration with AE. Some may opt for FCPX because of the low price of $300.00. I wouldn't switch editing software based on what Hollywood does. The Adobe CS package worked great for me in 2009. Premiere Pro was considered a joke back then but for people who actually used it it worked great.


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Michael Phillips
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 5, 2017 at 2:31:45 am

Don't know of any FCP/x big features, but for 2016 there was Deadpool which should have at the very least taken that last (unused) 10th best picture nomination. It was a fun, engaging, and nicely edited film.

Sundance pics gets picked up, you never know what happens for 2017 releases.


Michael


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Warren Eig
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 5, 2017 at 6:28:33 pm

The reality is big budget editors and the A.C.E. are behind Avid. At that level, it doesn't matter what the integration is with AE or other Adobe programs is because editors on studio pictures aren't doing the compositing and sound mix and color correction, etc. They cut with multiple assistance, lock picture, send selects to VFX and that's the process. The AEs prep for the OMF or AAF export, VFX etc. Editors just cut.

Warren Eig
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Bill Davis
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 5, 2017 at 7:13:33 pm

I get the halo effect and all, but the movie biz is numerically small potatos when it comes to an NLEs development and worldwide adoption.

You're probably going to sell 10,000 seats into just corporate video users for every 1 for a film editor. And probably 1000 seats for general video communicators for every corporate seat.

I've come to see that lumbing in capabilities for those top end users is great, because many times those same capabilities end up greatly enhancing the software for the masses.

Roles in X being a good example. I don't need to do complex turnovers, but I'm starting to use it to isolate timeline sections that I want to treat as as ad hock groups, and it's excellent to have the tool even if I never use it the same way the movie folks will.

Identify bottlenecks and problems that can be helped/solved - build that capability into the code - then let me adapt it to my specific needs.

Good pathway into the future.

My 2 cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Joe Marler
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 5, 2017 at 11:06:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "I get the halo effect and all, but the movie biz is numerically small potatos when it comes to an NLEs development and worldwide adoption. "

Avid has a firm lock on Hollywood -- maybe over 95%. However there is little money there. Avid's annual net revenue from video products and solutions has declined each year since at least 2011, and is currently about $201 million, or 66% of what it was in 2011. As recently as last year there were news reports of continuing layoffs. Apple's revenue from watch bands is probably more than that.

Total Hollywood box office revenue in 2015 was about $38 billion but Youtube is projected (by one analyst) to reach $27 billion by 2020:
http://www.tubefilter.com/2016/04/15/youtube-estimated-revenues-27-billion-...

It's great to hear about either Premiere or FCPX used in feature films, and the products benefit from that. However if Apple had not "rescoped" FCPX for the broader market, I'm not sure it would exist today -- just not enough revenue in the upper segment to justify the development effort. OTOH Apple (unlike Avid and Adobe) makes a lot from hardware sales and if FCPX is viewed as a Mac sales multiplier, the total revenue benefit is a lot more than the software.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 3:47:57 am

I know everyone here by and large likes to poo-poo the use of NLE brands in feature film editing. However, it's important to these companies because of aspirational marketing. No kid in high school or college thinking of going into film and TV or just cutting their own projects, dreams of using that NLE that someone on YouTube decided to cut with. They follow the players and want to be like them. So it might not mean much in direct dollars, but it otherwise has a huge effect. FCP legacy would never have become the force it was without professional, marquee users.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 4:49:01 am

Movie audiences couldn't care less, what editing system was used to cut a movie. The Hollywood system is quite resistant to change because the producers, expert editors, color correction etc are all very entrenched. When the first talkies came out the studios and theaters resisted, but the audiences flocked to the talkies and then Hollywood changed in a matter of a year or so. My guess it would take something for the big studios to change away from Avid. Of course a big change would be Avid going under, but even then it would probably be propped up.

Maybe a change will come from the small shops that find one or another software is better, cheaper or faster and they can shift far more rapidly than the Hollywood system. Hmm, I wonder what China will be using? The Great Wall movie is coming out this month.




Color grading looks like Michael Bay blockbuster grading.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 1:01:04 pm

[Claude Lyneis] "Hmm, I wonder what China will be usin"

There is a homegrown Chinese NLE. But they use all of the above. In fact, Chinese investors seem to be buying heavily into Avid.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 5:08:23 am

[Oliver Peters] "FCP legacy would never have become the force it was without professional, marquee users."

That was true in the late 1990s when editing was a mysterious process done in TV stations and carpeted suites.

But it just hasn't been that way for decades now.

Video production, even high level production is largly a pretty routine commodity now.

A friend, Don Rumsey cutting on X in Wyoming recently linked me to this public facing piece he worked on.






Not that long ago, nothing less than a huge corporation could do stuff like this that has what amounts to helicopter shots (now drones) and Hollywood style camera moves throughout. Now it's pretty commonplace stuff everywhere on the planet from Wyoming to Zimbabwe.

These are the majority of gigs of the future IMO. Not the relative handful of feature films being rolled out yearly. Not if you want to make a realistic living in a world awash in content.

It seems like EVERYBODY understands the basics of using a computer to assemble image streams today. And millions, not thousands, now own and understand the means of production. That's also why YouTube is what it is, not to mention the juggernot that the "Lets Play" kids have created totally on-line.

They usually could care less about being "moviemaker famous" when their peers are spending vastly more money and time on alternate forms of leisure time stuff. And as Hollywood and the film industry turns more and more to "tent pole" thinking, the opportunities for editorial employment in big scale filmmaking are going to contract, not expand, IMO.

What is going to expand are individuals with a story to tell, looking for video literate people to help them do it. Some in large teams, yes, but many, many, many multiples more in modest or very small groups - and even, often, as solo practitioners.

And there's a place for them all.

If software "focuses totally on the top" (ala AVID) I think it's in trouble.

To the extent it focuses on growing from the middle out rather than from the top down, I think it will succeed. And when that means jettisoning the older thinking that things are done one way just because it's how a legacy class of users expect them to be done, so be it.

I was noticing (on one hand) how much simpler X has become via workspaces when you just want to focus on a specific task - while adding even more possibilities for doing more complex work via things like the expansion of Roles.

Middle out stuff everywhere.

My 2 cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 7:30:12 am

[Oliver Peters] " FCP legacy would never have become the force it was without professional, marquee users."

I think having users who were super passionate (FCP user groups) about the software is what allowed FCP to get some recognition more than anything else. Imagine if there were passionate users of Pinnacle's Liquid Edition. Apple users could have experienced the thrill of GPU acceleration and background rendering in 2003. Liquid Edition was an interesting program to say the least. I sold my copy when Avid decided to end of life it. Would I be using Pinnacle's Liquid Edition instead of Premiere Pro if Avid did not to end of life it? Probably but who can say for sure. It took Adobe, Apple and Blackmagic a long time to catch up to Fast/Pinnacle/Avid. Did Fast/Pinnacle/Avid have a patent on GPU acceleration and background rendering? Who knows? Having said that the background rendering of Liquid Edition was needed more back in the days of analogue and digital tape export. As of 2017 I think Media Encoder is a better option than background rendering from the timeline.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 11:07:08 am

[Oliver Peters] "I know everyone here by and large likes to poo-poo the use of NLE brands in feature film editing. "

Unless they want to crow about it when X is the one being used. 😁I say as someone who wrote one such crowing article about X myself. 😎




(btw, we haven't talked about this around here, but what Ficarra, Requa, Fogelman et al are pulling off week after week on This Is Us is beyond cinematic, approaching the realm of the miraculous. I don't care if they never make another movie again as long as they keep doing this.)

The thread asks about movies, but what about European news organizations? Are stories about the success of X at a European broadcaster irrelevant to everyone who's not doing news for a European network?

I'm being rhetorical here, at least to the extent that it seems blazingly obvious to me that the answer is OF COURSE these stories matter. I want MORE of them, even though I'll never do that kind of work in those kinds of places. Aside from my general curiosity about how EVERYONE does EVERYTHING, stories like these ESPECIALLY matter for the people who DON'T need persuading. They, we, need encouragement. Inspiration.

You cheer for your "team", whether or not you personally are playing the game, because of how it makes you feel about yourself.

That is, to ME anyway, the magic of the Cold Mountain Moment. It wasn't aspirational in the sense of "someday I hope to be a pro" as much as "someday I hope to be able to stop defending my choice of software as being fully capable of any professional task I set it to, and have it simply accepted as such." Or even more broadly, a settling in of the community with itself, feeling ratified in making a gamble on a company with no experience whatsoever in this field, buying tools from a company with a genuinely poor track record developing such tools themselves (Macromind MediaMaker, anyone?) who fortunately had brought in a team from yet another company, to find that, a few years and a few more key purchases later, hey, whaddya know? This thing's a genuine winner.

We've all picked enough losers along the way (MACROMIND MEDIAMAKER, ANYONE?) that picking a winner is FUN. The Cold Mountain moment didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know, but it's still nice to hear.

With all the concomitant benefits that accrue from having professional heavyweights lending THEIR voices to ensuring that the software will be developed in ways that benefit professionals like them, like me, like US. Because even though we're not doing the same thing, we still have this shared blood bond, that our livelihoods depend on this thing being up to the task.

I'm going to step aside from the bizarre argument that's about to make my head explode, that only companies bent on failure, if not suicide, would be so foolish as to focus on professional customers long enough to note that we admittedly debated the meaning of the Cold Mountain Moment even at that time -- even without a proper debate forum in place!! How did we manage?!?! -- but it's beyond debate that something changed at that point.

I would have hoped that one thing that would have changed by now is that we could let go the fiction that stories like this don't matter. Stories like this matter, because tool choices matter. They're not all equally up to every task. Vastly more important than feature sets, not every user's personality is equally well-adapted to the conceptual models of every development team.

I'm going to go the other way and say that reviews are the things that are damn near useless imo. I don't care nearly as much about the names and locations of buttons as I do about whether the thing WORKS. That's why the most useful approach is to hear about the WORK.

Like your old high school physics exams. Any moderately-motivated monkey can punch the buttons to come up with a usable answer. The only way I can know if you know what you're talking about is if you SHOW YOUR WORK.

Or are people really saying that Ronny Courtens can stop bothering with these epic tales of the workflow warrior-poets building FCPX workflows through sheer force of will? That Oliver never needs to ask another editor or color grader about their software choices?

Of course not. That's nonsense. I have absolutely no idea why anybody would even pretend that these stories aren't at least interesting. That part's opinion, and we can debate it, but as we step into the world of actual facts, rather than merely alternative ones, it's quite easy to demonstrate how stories like this have moved the needle again and again, and not just in this industry.

On that level, it's not even marketing. It's our lives as social animals. We listen to stories about other people to learn about ourselves, to learn about what's possible for ourselves to do and become. That's exactly the stuff that you want companies to be doing. At least I do.

Yeah, I'll glance at bullet pointed lists because I have some specific needs, but really, feature sets are closer to parity than not already. Give me something real. Tell me about the time you saved, the money you made, the pain you salved, the potential you embraced.

Uhm, not YOU, marketing weasel. I was speaking to my peer, the person who pays money to buy their tools, and is trying to build a life with them. THAT's who I want talking to me. Doesn't matter that it's on behalf of some company or other. Rather than having to wade through intentionally anonymized marketing rap and scratch my head over whether this has anything to do with me or not, I can get there more quickly in a bylined article by a writer like Oliver or Ronny who I KNOW is legit, and the subjects of the articles are SHOWING THEIR WORK.

So to me, even though the stories are in the service of marketing, the fact that they're transparent make them the stuff of life. I like life. I like stuff. I like stories like this.

So there are my questions for you. Is it only film stories that don't count for anything, or is it broadcast stories too?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 1:09:22 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Or are people really saying that Ronny Courtens can stop bothering with these epic tales of the workflow warrior-poets building FCPX workflows through sheer force of will? That Oliver never needs to ask another editor or color grader about their software choices?"

Thanks for the kind words. One of my guiding principals in these interviews when talking about NLE specifics is to try to get to the "how" of their use. In other words, what special twist, if any, do they add to using the tool in filmmaking. What does editor A do differently or more innovatively than editor B with that same tool.

For instance, the Fincher team has made heavy use of After Effects in the editorial process. They also dealt with high-res, overscanned footage in an interesting manner. Plus a LOT was stabilized, because Fincher wants perfect camera moves. The Focus/WTF team made greater use of native camera media than is common on nearly any other film.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 7, 2017 at 9:12:34 pm

[Oliver Peters] "For instance, the Fincher team has made heavy use of After Effects in the editorial process. They also dealt with high-res, overscanned footage in an interesting manner. Plus a LOT was stabilized, because Fincher wants perfect camera moves. The Focus/WTF team made greater use of native camera media than is common on nearly any other film."

Exactly. When you read stories that put those specifics in context, you see why it would have been insane for either team to have made any other choice than the ones they did.

And as you note, Oliver, even when introductions are made to us by PR people representing the software companies, you still shape the story by the WORK. Not all filmmakers are super in tune with tools, and indeed, some of them really don't care...but I do enjoy hearing from people who are thinking things through, whether it's their NLEs, location management, casting choices, whatever.

This year's festival season is off to a crazy start, and I'm actually having a hard time tracking stories right now, but two things have really, really stood out.

One is that Premiere Pro is on the rise. I know that Sundance and SXSW aren't the world, and that, say, "documentaries in competition at Sundance" is a narrow slice of the world (45 documentary features screened out of 1701 submissions), but still, reading something like "68% of films entered in the US Documentary Competition used Premiere Pro CC as the primary NLE" feels big.

Even bigger: "42% of projects relied on Premiere Pro CC as the primary NLE – a 90% increase from 2016!" Again noting that 113 feature films selected out of 4068 is by definition not statistically significant....but wowza, nearly double year on year, within a market segment that absolutely IS significant....well, all of a sudden, Premiere nearly doubling its footprint at Sundance feels significant indeed.

I'm still gonna wanna hear more about why, but it suggests that there are non-random reasons at work here. Not that this

My other takeaway as a reader these days is that ALEXA is queen of more than you might think. IndieWire asked everyone at Sundance what they used, and while not everyone replied, the overwhelming majority replied Alexa. Damn near all of them, actually.

Among other things, it speaks to the wisdom of ARRI's position that by aiming ALEXA at the rental market they could make a better camera that's ALSO more accessible to a wider range of filmmakers. Certainly I'd bet that people who shot with ALEXA spent less to rent their cameras than almost anyone who bought a camera.

Business model aside, most of them talked about the look...and this is begging the question, is it just that ALEXA users are more likely to respond to surveys? We also have no access to the information about the 3900 films that didn't make the cut. Is there something about the "look" of Alexa and what the Sundance staff thinks "looks" like "a Sundance movie" that makes non-Alexa movies less likely to make the cut?

Because you can say all day long that tools don't matter, but when you hear people talk about WHY they choose, you realize that it's not true.

That is to say, yes, you can make lots of good things with lots of good tools, so I want to hear why this one for this project. No review can do that. Good project profiles can.

Not that any of this is an answer to your original question, Oliver, as much as it is an agreement with the question. 😁 Other than Adobe calling "Adobe Premiere Pro the official editing tool at Sundance 2017", and documenting the claim pretty thoroughly if also in broad strokes, it's been awhile since anybody out there has stuck the landing with one of these more specific stories.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 7, 2017 at 9:34:30 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Feb 7, 2017 at 9:36:22 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Business model aside, most of them talked about the look...and this is begging the question, is it just that ALEXA users are more likely to respond to surveys? We also have no access to the information about the 3900 films that didn't make the cut. Is there something about the "look" of Alexa and what the Sundance staff thinks "looks" like "a Sundance movie" that makes non-Alexa movies less likely to make the cut?"

Large numbers of movies come through our doors every year and those that are shot on the Alexa stand head and shoulder above the rest - there really is no competition.

It takes beautiful, beautiful pictures, whoever is shooting with it.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Tom Sefton
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 7, 2017 at 11:35:21 pm

It's a funny thing - Alexa have used the same sensors for years and shunned the pixel drive from other camera manufacturers and the cameras produce beautiful images. Red have cornered the market for Netflix but for cinema, arri is still king. Small screen goes for red much more often - even for better call Saul, which after breaking bad was shot on film is an interesting move.

Alexa has such an incredibly loyal following - so much that many rental markets are dominated by the request of a DoP and many of those only want Alexa. I'm looking forwards to seeing if the new helium sensors from red make any difference to what major releases use - especially with the tie in with panavision - a stunning technical achievement, but to be honest for a cinema experience I still don't think you can beat film. Can't wait to see what Christopher Nolan and Hoyte van Hoytema do with Dunkirk. Red is making some inroads to Hollywood but they seem to be used much more for VFX based films...?

NLE and movie making is really interesting. I thought that FCP started to get real recognition when Cold mountain was cut on it. I also find it really cool that one of the most celebrated editors of the last 35 years doesn't use software made by avid, Adobe, Apple or blackmagic. It's a personal choice that is fit to the task in hand...

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Brett Sherman
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 2:40:13 pm

[Tim Wilson] "I'm being rhetorical here, at least to the extent that it seems blazingly obvious to me that the answer is OF COURSE these stories matter. I want MORE of them, even though I'll never do that kind of work in those kinds of places. Aside from my general curiosity about how EVERYONE does EVERYTHING, stories like these ESPECIALLY matter for the people who DON'T need persuading. They, we, need encouragement. Inspiration. "

I don't have a problem with these stories. I find them quite interesting and can occasionally glean useful information from them. However, I think there is an inherent bias in covering them. Nobody is writing a story about how someone edited a video with FCP X in a matter of hours and because he/she was more efficient and got the video out quicker, that allowed him/her to hit a wave of public interest which allowed the video to go viral. Nobody is writing about the editing tools and techniques of Youtubers who make a good living with their videos. Personally I'd love to know about the production workflow of AJ+ or Attn: or any of the other Facebook media creators. Those could also be interesting reads, but I've never seen one on Creative Cow.

It's always, go to the biggest production you can find. It's "old school." Nothing wrong with that. But where is the "new school?"

--------------------------
Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it's video related I'll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here.


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Bill Davis
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 6, 2017 at 4:42:35 pm

[Brett Sherman] "Personally I'd love to know about the production workflow of AJ+ or Attn: or any of the other Facebook media creators. Those could also be interesting reads, but I've never seen one on Creative Cow. "

Well...

That time a couple of years back I tried to bring a leading young editor doing things differently into the forum, inside a day he got so much pushback from the entrenched thinkers here he basically exited with a "why bother?"

Forums are like neighborhoods. Some are welcoming and make newcomers feel like the regular residents are interested in what the newcomers bring to the conversation. Other neighborhoods kinda make you feel like if you don't speak the proper language fluently or prepare your meals in the proper way - you're not really all that welcome.

This place can be a bit like the Hyde Park speakers corner - or maybe more like the scene of the Eminem rap battle in 8 mile. Most folks just lurk because it's safer that way?

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 7, 2017 at 8:22:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "This place can be a bit like the Hyde Park speakers corner - or maybe more like the scene of the Eminem rap battle in 8 mile. Most folks just lurk because it's safer that way? "

Maybe in this particular forum, but we've got over 100 of 'em. We've also got over 300,000 active members and hundreds of posts going up every day. Do ALL of the millions of people who pass through the COW every month post? Of course not, but a very few experiences from people who come to a forum with Debate in the title who don't actually care to debate anything combined with the absence of data isn't a strong foundation


[Brett Sherman] "Personally I'd love to know about the production workflow of AJ+ or Attn: or any of the other Facebook media creators. Those could also be interesting reads, but I've never seen one on Creative Cow. "

I couldn't agree more. This is one reason I pushed back so hard on the vertical video haters -- Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, et al are a huge part of what "our" industry is actually creating. Certainly the places where audiences are, even more than movies and TV.

I, am, alas, sorely bandwidth-constrained these days with operational stuff, which is why I haven't been posting much, and writing even less, but no kidding, Brett. I absolutely agree with you.

Thanks,

Tim Wilson
Creative COW


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 7, 2017 at 11:41:15 pm

[Bill Davis] "That was true in the late 1990s when editing was a mysterious process done in TV stations and carpeted suites.

But it just hasn't been that way for decades now."


I do think that it's easier to move up market than down market and that's the fight Avid has been struggling with for a good 15 years. To protect it's high end business Avid kept offering crippled, overpriced NLEs to compete with FCP Legend so it's no surprise that ExpressDV, Express Pro, etc., tanked. There is certainly still a higher end market (and I think it's expanding as streaming sites get more into the original content business), but the middle market no longer has to accept the high end solutions as their solutions. The one-size-fits-all approach has disappeared as technology keeps making gear better and more affordable as well as opening up new distribution models (how profitable those models are is another question though).


[Bill Davis] "It seems like EVERYBODY understands the basics of using a computer to assemble image streams today. And millions, not thousands, now own and understand the means of production. That's also why YouTube is what it is, not to mention the juggernot that the "Lets Play" kids have created totally on-line.

They usually could care less about being "moviemaker famous" when their peers are spending vastly more money and time on alternate forms of leisure time stuff.


That's an apple's to oranges comparison though. Of course kids that are into video games, Lets Play vids and Twitch streamers probably aren't dreaming of making it big in Hollywood, anymore than they are dreaming of making it big playing hockey. But kids that have watched Star Wars 99 times, make zombie movies with their friends on the weekends and look for tutorials on how to add muzzle flashes in post just might have aspirations for Tinseltown. To Oliver's point, the people that are really interested in movies will want to find out what cameras, NLEs, etc., are used by their favorite filmmakers just like kids that are really interested in video games/Lets Play videos will want to know what controllers, computers, KB/M, etc., their favorite gamers use. That's the bedrock of aspirational marketing.

Since video games got brought up, there is an interesting parallel to this in the esports world. For example, Overwatch is a new (relatively speaking) first person shooter from Blizzard that they are launched with the goal of making it into an esport, and there is a constant argument in the community about whether the gameplay in Overwatch should be primarily balanced for the casual scene or the pro scene. Creating a successful pro scene will keep the game viable for years (maybe even a decade or longer) in a market where casual gamers typically only play titles for months (maybe a year), but if you make the learning curve too hard you'll lose the casual gamers which means less of a fan base to build a viable esport around.

Not an exact analogy to NLEs, but I think it's interesting that things as different as NLEs and esports can have such similar problems.

[Bill Davis] " And as Hollywood and the film industry turns more and more to "tent pole" thinking, the opportunities for editorial employment in big scale filmmaking are going to contract, not expand, IMO."

Being able to 'make it' in Los Angeles has always been a seriously uphill battle and I think that's part of the allure (it certainly was for me). No one admires Usain Bolt or Bill Gates because what they accomplished was easily attainable and/or achieved by many. And of course there's the famous quote from Jobs where he asked Sculley (then an exec at Pepsi), “Do you want to sell sugar water for the rest of your life, or do you want to come with me and change the world?” Whenever I talk to high school or college kids that want to head for the bright lights of the big city my speech basically boils down to this, there's no logical reason to do it, it's a never ending grind, its more of a lifestyle than a job, and your endeavors will almost surely fail... but that's no reason not to swing for the fences anyway.

With that being said, there are more movies and TV shows being created today than ever before, but there's also more competition than ever before so I think the overall difficulty of making a living remains the same because as old barriers crumble new ones are formed. In general I think the are more opportunities for making a living by cutting together moving pictures, but some will obviously pay better than others.


[Brett Sherman] "Nobody is writing about the editing tools and techniques of Youtubers who make a good living with their videos. Personally I'd love to know about the production workflow of AJ+ or Attn: or any of the other Facebook media creators. Those could also be interesting reads, but I've never seen one on Creative Cow. "


To be honest, outside of the ins/outs of publishing to social media I'm not sure how unique and/or interesting those post workflows would be for people already familiar with post workflows.

For example, I doubt solo YouTubers like Pewdiepie or Michelle Phan have very exotic editing workflow because their business model doesn't require it (though they might really be keen on the new social media publishing ability for PPro that's currently in beta). For larger YouTubers/digital media companies like AJ+, Machima, Maker Studios, Attn:, RocketJump, PopSugar, etc., it's been my experience that they typically have workflows that are similar to traditional TV/film workflows but just scaled down and/or on a lower budget. If you are running a digital media news company employing many people trying to make daily deadlines you'll run into the same basic problems as a cable news channel that employes many people trying to make daily deadlines (multiple editing stations, shared storage, asset management, review/approval, archiving, etc.,.) The biggest difference will probably be that the cable news channel has a bigger budget to throw at those problems. FWIW I know that RocketJump, PopSugar, Attn:, Yahoo, and Viacom's digital side use PPro (I think Machima does as too but I'm not totally sure).

Speaking of solutions to problems, YouTube Spaces is a clear example of direction many YouTubers are going. Sound stages, green screens, control rooms, cameras, etc., it looks like any other production space except its for YouTubers, not TV networks or movie studios. I worked on a live YouTube show recently and from a production standpoint it was put together and manned like a live TV broadcast except it streamed over YouTube. Medium sized sound stage, studio cameras, control room to put the Death Star to shame, etc.,. Big budget digital productions look a whole lot like smaller budget TV/film productions.

As I've quipped before in other threads, we seem to be in a weird transitional period where Old Media people are trying to get into New Media because that's where the eyeballs are going, yet New Media people are trying to get into Old Media because that's where the money (and prestige) is.

I'd be remiss to leave this topic without mentioning YouTuber Freedie Wong (RocketJump) and his very successful scripted YT series "Video Game High School" that ran for three seasons. Here is a link to his final thoughts on working on a series of that scale with YT as the distribution channel (and Kickstarter for a lot of the funding).

https://www.rocketjump.com/blog/vghs-post-mortem


[Bill Davis] "That time a couple of years back I tried to bring a leading young editor doing things differently into the forum, inside a day he got so much pushback from the entrenched thinkers here he basically exited with a "why bother?""

Whatever you do, don't talk about the new social media publishing features Adobe is working on. You probably haven't run into this yet, but some people don't like talking about things outside of their own needs. ;)


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Bill Davis
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:02:38 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Whatever you do, don't talk about the new social media publishing features Adobe is working on. You probably haven't run into this yet, but some people don't like talking about things outside of their own needs. ;)"

Is that where they're trying to add more revenue streams next?

You pay for the basic software, then incrementally more for the clip media, The analytics package, and a nice chunk of any of your monitization ala Stock?

It's likely a great business model. For Adobe. And that's their job. Lick em in and look for incremental add on sales. As it's ever been, I suppose.

Odd thing is, I just noticed that my Vimeo Pro account added a commenting and review system that's very close to what Frame I/O is doing.

Vimeo has direct monetization plumbed in already.

And, of course Apple has those zillion Credit Cards on file and those ultra massive data operations around the world doing lots of tracking and bean counting and payouts to App developers and piddly little individual iBook Authors like me.

So which one makes the most sense as "the platform" going forward?

I don't have a clue - although I have a bit direct experience with all of them. Right now, Apple seems to take the least yearly via iCloud. IF I was a CC full subscriber instead of Photo only (still X2!) that would be the most costly. And Vimeo Pro and Frame I.O are in the middle.

Personally, I'll likely eventually take the one that extracts less monthly to play and leaves me with more in my pocket.

Only time will tell what that eventually will really turn out to be.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 8, 2017 at 3:22:07 am

[Bill Davis] "Is that where they're trying to add more revenue streams next? "

Uh, no... link for the Google-impaired:
https://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/slay-on-social-introducing-the-social...


It's a feature currently in beta that gives users more control and automation when it comes to prepping and publishing videos to various social media sites. It also displays analytics about how the video(s) are doing and suggestions for how to get your videos to have more reach. Not much info about it yet, but it looks like the Premiere team is tapping into resources from the Marketing Cloud team (Adobe's enterprise level analytic and market research division) and funneling relevant data about your videos performance into PPro.

They are working with various YouTubers to get real world feedback so I'm very curious to see how it works once it's out of beta. I have no use for it, but looks like it should be good for the YouTubers and other social media content creators.


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Bill Davis
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 8, 2017 at 8:15:12 pm

OK, thanks for the link.

Seems other than the Analytics that they imply, there's little here that I haven't been doing for going on 6 years in X - with the addition of my Vimeo Pro account which manages and allows file tagging for search directly from within the FCP X share system.

So I'll need to see what exactly the new mojo they plumb into this that goes beyond what I already have been doing.

That said, if it makes things easier for Premiere Pro users - it's great that they may get even more capabilities for what hopefully remains the same monthly fee.

Useful move.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 8, 2017 at 8:32:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "Seems other than the Analytics that they imply, there's little here that I haven't been doing for going on 6 years in X"

Yeah, the analytics is the secret sauce as PPro has had publishing features (keywords, descriptions, privacy settings, etc.,) built in for a number of versions as well.


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andy patterson
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 9, 2017 at 2:39:22 am

[Andrew Kimery] "[Brett Sherman] "Nobody is writing about the editing tools and techniques of Youtubers who make a good living with their videos. Personally I'd love to know about the production workflow of AJ+ or Attn: or any of the other Facebook media creators. Those could also be interesting reads, but I've never seen one on Creative Cow. "


To be honest, outside of the ins/outs of publishing to social media I'm not sure how unique and/or interesting those post workflows would be for people already familiar with post workflows.

For example, I doubt solo YouTubers like Pewdiepie or Michelle Phan have very exotic editing workflow because their business model doesn't require it (though they might really be keen on the new social media publishing ability for PPro that's currently in beta)"


I agree.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 9, 2017 at 2:30:12 pm
Last Edited By Brett Sherman on Feb 9, 2017 at 2:38:35 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "For larger YouTubers/digital media companies like AJ+, Machima, Maker Studios, Attn:, RocketJump, PopSugar, etc., it's been my experience that they typically have workflows that are similar to traditional TV/film workflows but just scaled down and/or on a lower budget."

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think they are using templates in a new way to push content out fast. The end product is certainly much different. But it's hard to know given that nobody is covering it. And if you've ever tried to develop a template workflow, quite frankly it is not simple. Even beyond the technical challenges there is also the organizational and business model structure that would also be interesting.

It's sort of in the eye of the beholder isn't it. You want to read articles that inform your workflow. I want to read articles that inform my workflow. I'm just not seeing a lot of the latter here. The real question becomes, is this a board only for those who work on narrative or TV production? Some seem to want it to be.



--------------------------
Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it's video related I'll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here.


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andy patterson
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 9, 2017 at 3:47:51 pm

[Brett Sherman] "I'm not sure I agree with that. I think they are using templates in a new way to push content out fast. The end product is certainly much different. But it's hard to know given that nobody is covering it. And if you've ever tried to develop a template workflow, quite frankly it is not simple. Even beyond the technical challenges there is also the organizational and business model structure that would also be interesting."

I am not sure I follow. Some of the Youtubers do behind the scenes video. What they show is not rocket science so I am not 100% cent sure what you want explained to you. Is there a Youtube channel we should checking out to get an idea?

[Brett Sherman] "It's sort of in the eye of the beholder isn't it. You want to read articles that inform your workflow. I want to read articles that inform my workflow. I'm just not seeing a lot of the latter here. The real question becomes, is this a board only for those who work on narrative or TV production? Some seem to want it to be."

Are you talking more about how to market on social media? In other words not how does PewdiePie edit (everyone should be able to edit a PewdiePie video) but how did he market his channel? To be honest the YouTube success stories happened from people just being themselves and gaining an audience from pure luck. They didn't put any thought into it at first. What works for a 21 your old female may not work for you. As I stated I am not 100% sure what you want to know.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 9, 2017 at 10:14:19 pm
Last Edited By Brett Sherman on Feb 9, 2017 at 11:40:39 pm

[andy patterson] "Are you talking more about how to market on social media? In other words not how does PewdiePie edit (everyone should be able to edit a PewdiePie video) but how did he market his channel? To be honest the YouTube success stories happened from people just being themselves and gaining an audience from pure luck. They didn't put any thought into it at first. What works for a 21 your old female may not work for you. As I stated I am not 100% sure what you want to know."

First off I don't know who the heck PewdiePie is. I'm talking mostly about social media companies like AJ+. There is a lot to their organization, aesthetic, workflow that I believe would be informative.

More business-oriented angle for Youtubers. Really not about any individual, but the market as a whole. And I think within that group there would be various levels of expertise. The fact is, all of them are still making aesthetic decisions that impact their reach. What works for them? What doesn't? Honestly, I can't imagine not being curious about this kind of thing. And if you're in the business of helping organizations with their social media, I'm not sure being uninterested is really doing much for your clients.

--------------------------
Brett Sherman
One Man Band (If it's video related I'll do it!)
I work for an institution that probably does not want to be associated with my babblings here.


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andy patterson
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 10, 2017 at 1:54:27 am

[Brett Sherman] "First off I don't know who the heck PewdiePie is. I'm talking mostly about social media companies like AJ+. There is a lot to their organization, aesthetic, workflow that I believe would be informative."

I never heard of AJ+ until now. They obviously don't have a marketing strategy on par with Facebook or Youtube.

[Brett Sherman] "More business-oriented angle for Youtubers. Really not about any individual, but the market as a whole. And I think within that group there would be various levels of expertise. The fact is, all of them are still making aesthetic decisions that impact their reach. What works for them? What doesn't? Honestly, I can't imagine not being curious about this kind of thing."

Once again I am not 100% sure what you want. It does sound like you want some business and marketing advise. As with anything what works for one person may not work for another. What works for one product may not work for another. Marketing is hard work.

[Brett Sherman] "And if you're in the business of helping organizations with their social media, I'm not sure being uninterested is really doing much for your clients."

I am not in that business. I don't think most users in this forum are. The internet is a big place. Perhaps there are better forums to get the information you want.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Movies and NLE marketing
on Feb 10, 2017 at 5:40:15 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Feb 10, 2017 at 9:03:17 pm

[Brett Sherman] "First off I don't know who the heck PewdiePie is. I'm talking mostly about social media companies like AJ+. There is a lot to their organization, aesthetic, workflow that I believe would be informative. "

AJ+ isn't a social media company though. AJ+ is a news media company that uses social media (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.,) as a primary distribution platform. It sounds like you what you are asking is more about social media marketing, than production/post workflows. FWIW I've split my post career about equally between New Media and Old Media and in my experience the workflows are much more similar than they are different (I have also created post/production workflows including template workflows).

For example, below is a link to an article on AJ+ and if you look at the pictures at the end of the article their offices look like a typical production studio (green screen, robotic cameras, a jib, stage lighting, a control room etc.,). It probably has a typical studio workflow too like recording onto solid state devices like KiPros (or straight onto the shared storage), and then running the footage through an asset management system (like CatDV or FORK) before editing starts on the iMacs attached to the shared storage.

Article on AJ+ (more broad strokes than details though)
https://gigaom.com/2013/11/22/an-exclusive-behind-the-scenes-look-at-aj-al-...

For the colored blocks of text you see in a lot of their vidoes they are probably using Live Text Templates (https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/how-to/animated-text-titles-live-text.html) if they are editing with PPro. If they are using FCPX then I think there is a similar feature in X/Motion as well.


With regards to new media in general, I think people are covering companies like AJ+, but it's usually tech sites like Wired, Ars or The Verge, not sites like the COW. The focus of those other sties isn't on nitty-gritty post workflow details, but you do get a general sense of the challenges and the solutions they use to overcome them. Below are some examples.

Article about Rooster Teeth (of Red vs Blue fame)
https://www.wired.com/2012/05/rooster-teeth-red-vs-blue/

Article about Freddie Wong / RocketJump
https://www.fastcocreate.com/3047979/then-and-now/how-freddie-wong-went-fro...

Another Aj+ article
http://variety.com/2015/digital/news/how-al-jazeeras-aj-became-one-of-the-b...

Fans, Friends and Followers (available as free PDF) is an older book on New Media, but some of the fundamental principles haven't changed in the nearly 10yrs since the book came out. If you want a better idea of the how New Media has, and hasn't, changed I still think this is a solid read.
http://www.scottkirsner.com/fff/where.html


With regards to the business model... A big hurdle with monetizing online media is that users hate ads because they just want to see the content. They hate paying money to access the content because 'information wants to be free'. They hate sponsorships and/or product placement because that means the content creators have sold out to corporate interests that most certainly manipulate the creators like puppet masters. Attracting viewers is much easier (and way different) than successfully monetizing viewers. For example, Twitter and YouTube are both huge, and both can't generate enough revenue to be profitable.

So how do you make if you are bigger than a dude in a room with a webcam? That's the $64,000 question everyone is still trying to figure out. Crowd funding like Kickstarter? Subscription backers like Patreon? Sponsors? Merchandise? Even if you have ads they pay a pittance compared to Old Media rates. And, many (most?) users run ad-blocking software too boot. At one website I worked at we had to plead with our viewers to turn off their ad-blocking software (at least some of the time) because they were literally killing the site by running ad-blockers all the time. Another option is to find someone that already makes a lot of money doing something else and does mind losing a bunch of it indefinitely.

That's the route AJ+ has taken, from another Gigaom on AJ+ article, "Bishr also stressed that there is not a lot of pressure for Al Jazeera, which is funded by the ruling family of Qatar, to be profitable with a venture like this."
https://gigaom.com/2014/09/15/ajplus-app-launch/



[Brett Sherman] "It's sort of in the eye of the beholder isn't it. You want to read articles that inform your workflow. I want to read articles that inform my workflow. I'm just not seeing a lot of the latter here. The real question becomes, is this a board only for those who work on narrative or TV production? Some seem to want it to be."

I can't say I've ever got the feeling that the COW is only for people that work in narrative or TV production. I've only worked in narrative a hand full of times (all low/no budget projects) and, like I said before, things destined for TV is maybe half of what I do and I don't feel like an outsider looking in here at the COW. I like readying about workflows in general because you never know what you can glean from them. I'm more interested in knowing what I don't know than knowing what I do know. For example, a couple of years ago Bill linked to a good article about an FCPX workflow used on a commercial and after reading it I figured out ways to implement parts of it into a PPro workflow (I don't use X).


EDIT: Fixed some typos and grammar (sure there is more that I missed). Wrote this over the course of a day so apologies if it is disjointed.


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