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Craig Seeman
2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 27, 2017 at 5:04:58 am

Switching from Premiere Pro back to FCPX and no longer willing to wait for Apple to update the 2013 Mac Pro, he modes with new CPU and external GPU. He says he actually found it easy to upgrade.









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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 27, 2017 at 7:39:00 am

The guy seemed honest and sincerer. Having said that the end result is bigger than a mATX computer without true PCIE slots or expansion bays. Expansion bays can be used for card readers, Blu-ray players hot swappable drive bays. The video below shows some cool gadgets at about five minutes in.







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Craig Seeman
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 27, 2017 at 11:36:32 am

[andy patterson] "without true PCIE slots "
Perhaps you aren't aware of what Thunderbolt is.

With Thunderbolt one can move all one's expansion from desktop to laptop or any other Thunderbolt computer in the facility. Much more cost effecting.

It only get's better with Thunderbolt 3 which will have the bandwidth to support external GPUs.

I even have the freedom to daisy chain with Thunderbolt. Can't do that with built in PCIe slots.

Mac run Windows too. Once external GPUs are fully supported, They'll be that much more freedom especially for those who may want to use FCPX but prefer working in Windows for other software.



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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 27, 2017 at 12:58:20 pm

[Craig Seeman] "[andy patterson] "without true PCIE slots "
Perhaps you aren't aware of what Thunderbolt is."


I am aware more than you. In the video the guy stated he knows he will not get the full benefits of the graphics card because Thunderbolt 2 does not have the bandwidth. Thunderbolt 2 is the same as PCIE 2.0 at four lanes. Many Graphics cards can exceed that. Thunderbolt 3 is better but the Mac Pro still does not have Thunderbolt 3.

[Craig Seeman] "
It only get's better with Thunderbolt 3 which will have the bandwidth to support external GPUs."


Thunderbolt 3 is good but it does not have the same amount of bandwidth as PCIE 3.0 at 16 lanes.

[Craig Seeman] "I even have the freedom to daisy chain with Thunderbolt. Can't do that with built in PCIe slots."

PC users can use Thunderbolt 3 as well so I don't see your point or how you can do something I cannot. Having said that your are confused about the band width. Some things can be daisy chained others cannot because of bandwidth limitation of Thunderbolt 2. The Mac Pro only has Thunderbolt 2 not Thunderbolt 3 . Even with Thunderbolt 3 you wouldn't want to daisy chain two GTX 1080s. All the PCs at the time of the Mac Pro 2013 had PCIE 3.0. Why not have PCIE and Thunderbolt 3?

[Craig Seeman] "Mac run Windows too. Once external GPUs are fully supported, They'll be that much more freedom especially for those who may want to use FCPX but prefer working in Windows for other software."

A GTX 1080 will exceed the specs of Thunderbolt 2. Had the Mac Pro had PCIE slots you might have been able to add a Thunderbolt 3 PCIE cards. Do you kind of see my point?

Having said that why would I want my graphics card outside of my computer? Why not just get an ITX case?


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Craig Seeman
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 27, 2017 at 8:46:46 pm
Last Edited By Craig Seeman on Jan 27, 2017 at 8:52:44 pm

[andy patterson] "Thunderbolt 2 is the same as PCIE 2.0 at four lanes. Many Graphics cards can exceed that. Thunderbolt 3 is better but the Mac Pro still does not have Thunderbolt 3."

I think his point is that he can extend the life of his Mac Pro, not that it will match current technology.

[andy patterson] "Thunderbolt 3 is good but it does not have the same amount of bandwidth as PCIE 3.0 at 16 lanes. "

But perhaps there's "good enough" for vast middle of niche market.

[andy patterson] "PC users can use Thunderbolt 3 as well so I don't see your point or how you can do something I cannot."

And PCs got there first this time. But depending on the number of devices you need to use and the need to move them from machine to machine, one may have a bit more flexibility given the number of ports.

[andy patterson] "Some things can be daisy chained others cannot because of bandwidth limitation of Thunderbolt 2. "

Which is why the number of ports is of value. A PC with one TB2 port will hit that limit sooner.
What happens with the next Mac Pro (if there is one) is speculative but my guess it'll have multiple TB3 ports (and admittedly no idea how they'll handle controllers/busses).

[andy patterson] "Even with Thunderbolt 3 you wouldn't want to daisy chain two GTX 1080s. "

If there is a new Mac Pro I'm sure they'll be multipole TB3 ports and value in daisy chaining.


[andy patterson] "All the PCs at the time of the Mac Pro 2013 had PCIE 3.0. Why not have PCIE and Thunderbolt 3? "

That would have been nice. I'm not sure the demand was there. It seems like a niche within a niche in the "professional" video market. The demand for high powered workstations is, at best stagnant. Apple is not pursuing that.

[andy patterson] "Having said that why would I want my graphics card outside of my computer? Why not just get an ITX case?"

Because you'd be able to move it from desktop to laptop as needed.

What does the median professional need? TB3 may be enough. Multiple TB3 ports may have more use especially when the same professional may need to move from desktop to laptop and may want to bring along eGPU, RAID, maybe Video in devices and maybe the ability to hook up whatever the client tosses in the mix without starting to unhook things to free up ports.



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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2017 at 1:05:12 am

[Craig Seeman] "[andy patterson] "Some things can be daisy chained others cannot because of bandwidth limitation of Thunderbolt 2. "

Which is why the number of ports is of value. A PC with one TB2 port will hit that limit sooner."


But there are PCS with Thunderbolt 3 so why talk about PCs with Thunderbolt 2? I think some PCs can probably get a Thunderbolt 3 PCIE card.


[Craig Seeman] "What happens with the next Mac Pro (if there is one) is speculative but my guess it'll have multiple TB3 ports (and admittedly no idea how they'll handle controllers/busses)."

PCs in 2018 will probably have two Thunderbolt controllers and two Thunderbolt ports. That along with two USB 3.1 ports will be more than enough bandwidth because the PC's Graphics card is PCIE

[Craig Seeman] "[andy patterson] "All the PCs at the time of the Mac Pro 2013 had PCIE 3.0. Why not have PCIE and Thunderbolt 3? "

That would have been nice. I'm not sure the demand was there. It seems like a niche within a niche in the "professional" video market. The demand for high powered workstations is, at best stagnant. Apple is not pursuing that."


Generic ATX computers are inexpensive to build. Apple does not want inexpensive products

[Craig Seeman] "[andy patterson] "Having said that why would I want my graphics card outside of my computer? Why not just get an ITX case?"

Because you'd be able to move it from desktop to laptop as needed."


If you have your RAID, card reader, Blu-ray burner and GPU outside of the case it just ends up looking cluttered and taking up space. Not to mention you will not have the functionality of an ATX computer. Also in order to use an external GPU you will need to be plugged into an AC outlet. Why not just use the desktop PC? My desktop PC would be more portable than a laptop with an external RAID and external GPU. All my stuff is internal. No proprietary AC adapters and cable to worry about.

Having said that Thunderbolt is a good technology to have.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 28, 2017 at 2:19:19 pm

Removable raids and GPUs are brilliant for DIT work and any projects where multiple users want to access the raid at once or share the GPU for the intensive parts of a project. One removable high speed GPU could go to set for dailies with a DIT and then come back to studio for the grade.

I really want to see a new Mac Pro, but still would love to hear what performance people get from their maxed out PC workstations when it comes for 6 or 8K raw workflows.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2017 at 12:40:20 am

[Tom Sefton] "Removable raids and GPUs are brilliant for DIT work and any projects where multiple users want to access the raid at once or share the GPU for the intensive parts of a project. One removable high speed GPU could go to set for dailies with a DIT and then come back to studio for the grade."

You have to factor in the price for the external RAID enclosures and GPU enclosure. Also ten people cannot share the same external GPU simultaneously. Also what if you want to take the external 16 terabyte RAID home and another worker needs to take it home? You cannot both take it home. Same could be said about the external GPU. External RAID systems are expensive internal RAID systems are not. Also depending on the files server (external RAID) and how many people are on it you might get dropped frames. My PC could connect up to a file server as well. It would be good to have the files on the PC and the file server both. Why not let all the PCs have a back up? You can install a 16 terabyte internal RAID for about $360.00. You could do a 8 terabyte RAID for about $220.00. It would be safer and you would not have to worry about dropped frames or performance loss if ten people at work are using the file server. Having said that what is the difference between lugging around an external GPU and external RAID vs lugging around an ATX computer?


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2017 at 1:00:37 am

i can hire out all my raids and get good prices for them as DIT kit. External raids can be used for capturing direct from redmags. 3 of the raids we have are more than 64TB in size and are more than fast enough via 10gIgE to let multiple users access data without drop frames. The point about the GPU is exactly that it is portable and can be used via a laptop or at home by a desktop. Specifically so that a GPU can be hot swapped from DIT to grade on-set to start building LUTs once dailies have been made.

Being Mac based, I'm still curious about PC performance.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2017 at 1:34:59 am

[Tom Sefton] "i can hire out all my raids and get good prices for them as DIT kit. External raids can be used for capturing direct from redmags. 3 of the raids we have are more than 64TB in size and are more than fast enough via 10gIgE to let multiple users access data without drop frames."

I know what you are saying can be done but what is the price? There are other companies making cost effective devices to capture R3D and 4K Pro Res.

[Tom Sefton] " The point about the GPU is exactly that it is portable and can be used via a laptop or at home by a desktop. Specifically so that a GPU can be hot swapped from DIT to grade on-set to start building LUTs once dailies have been made."

How is lugging around an external RAID and external GPU portable? Can you fit the external RAID in your pocket? Can you fit the external GPU enclosure in your pocket? How is that less expensive and more portable than a mATX computer?

[Tom Sefton] "Being Mac based, I'm still curious about PC performance."

The performance kicks ass. I can build an 8 Core i7 systems with a GTX 1080 for under $2,000.00. That $2,000.00 computer could hold it's own against the $3,000.00 entry level Mac Pro with an external RAID. Your external 16 terabyte RAID will not be cheap. As I stated internal RAIDS are inexpensive. Having said that the AMD Zen CPUs will probably bring down the price of the Intel CPUs.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2017 at 8:57:57 am

The cost of each raid is £5-£7k but you can get £100-£130 per day for hires. Nobody wants to hire a full machine for DIT, they want the raid only, in a flight case that can be shipped to set and then back to edit. Same goes for GPU - the red rocket x isn't relevant anymore but a GPU inside an external enclosure with thunderbolt 2 or 3 is available from most hire companies for DIT and post work. It's portable because it's light and can go inside a rucksack.

What devices are capturing r3d? Either you use the usb3 or thunderbolt 3 device that red sells or you can put a single bay inside your gtech raid and capture to your storage that way.

If there wasn't a use for external 80TB raids nobody would be building and selling them. They are, they work great and they give great performance with replaceable drives and can be networked if required. I understand internal raids, but someone needs to build that for me or I buy it with a dell or HP machine and the cost goes up.

How is the performance kick ass? Quantify it. Put some 8K or 6K raw footage on a timeline and play it back. What resolution are you playing back in premiere - 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or do you get full? From 8K raw how long does it take to spit out a prores or dnxhd file of the same length - say one minute. How many nodes do you get in resolve for colour correction? I've written extensively about the performance with the new Mac Pro and 4K raw, and I'm finding That 6K is possible, but 8K sluggish on the new Mac Pro. Yes everyone will scream about proxIRS but I just want to benchmark from the highest resolution and quality.

I'm not PC bashing. I want to understand what performance you get with PC over the new Mac Pro. Yes the new Mac Pro is more expensive, but I get tech support with Apple care and immediate repairs or replacement. I'm not tech savvy enough to spend time fixing a PC I've built myself - I want either dell or HP to offer me tech support with the better performance. From what I've seen, a HP machine with top spec isn't cheaper than a new Mac Pro but I don't know how quick it is.

It all adds up to a new Mac Pro being very much wanted and needed - just perhaps with a few more connection ports and the ability to add a second ssd and upgradeable gpu...

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2017 at 12:42:20 pm

[Tom Sefton] "The cost of each raid is £5-£7k but you can get £100-£130 per day for hires. Nobody wants to hire a full machine for DIT, they want the raid only, in a flight case that can be shipped to set and then back to edit."

I used to have a rackmount PC that was in a flight case. What if we eliminate the DIT and special situations and talk about an average editing suite?

[Tom Sefton] "Same goes for GPU - the red rocket x isn't relevant anymore but a GPU inside an external enclosure with thunderbolt 2 or 3 is available from most hire companies for DIT and post work. It's portable because it's light and can go inside a rucksack."

I agree the Red Rocket is obsolete. No one with a PC workstation would do that. A GTX 1080 will exceed the bandwidth of Thunderbolt 2. Why bother using an external GTX 1080 if you will not get the full benefits? Are Apple user not aware of the bottle neck of Thunderbolt 2?

[Tom Sefton] "What devices are capturing r3d? Either you use the usb3 or thunderbolt 3 device that red sells or you can put a single bay inside your gtech raid and capture to your storage that way."

I had read about people capturing from a Red One, Blackmagic and AJA with certain external hard drive systems. There I can see the need because of the situations but we are not really talking about a NLE.


[Tom Sefton] "If there wasn't a use for external 80TB raids nobody would be building and selling them. They are, they work great and they give great performance with replaceable drives and can be networked if required. I understand internal raids, but someone needs to build that for me or I buy it with a dell or HP machine and the cost goes up."

I am not saying there isn't a need. I am saying it is not the most cost effective. If you have an iMac or Mac Pro you obviously cannot have an internal RAID system. Also the external RAIDS are big and need an AC outlet just like a desktop PC. By the time you get the laptop and the external gear you might as well use a mATX computer. You will get better performance and more functionality.

[Tom Sefton] "How is the performance kick ass? Quantify it. Put some 8K or 6K raw footage on a timeline and play it back. What resolution are you playing back in premiere - 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or do you get full?"

I can play 4K Pro Res files at 24 FPS at full resolution using a mediocre GTX 1060 and 3.4 GHZ Haswell CPU. Other people have played back 4K Red One R3D with a GTX 980 and 4.0 GHZ Skylake at full resolution. My system plays 4K Red One R3D at full resolution for about 20 seconds before the drop frame indicator goes off. Not bad. It will almost do it. I bet it would play at full resolution if I had a 4 GHZ i7 Skylake. Would a dual 8 core Xeon system with a Titan GPU play back 8K Red One R3D at full resolution? It might but I doubt it. 8K has a lot of pixels. AMD will have 16 core CPU very soon.

[Tom Sefton] "From 8K raw how long does it take to spit out a prores or dnxhd file of the same length - say one minute. How many nodes do you get in resolve for colour correction? I've written extensively about the performance with the new Mac Pro and 4K raw, and I'm finding That 6K is possible, but 8K sluggish on the new Mac Pro. Yes everyone will scream about proxIRS but I just want to benchmark from the highest resolution and quality."

I do not have Resolve on my PC or an 8K file. I wish I did. I would test it out for you if I did.


[Tom Sefton] "I'm not PC bashing. I want to understand what performance you get with PC over the new Mac Pro."

As I stated an internal RAID will be a lot cheaper. Eight 4TB drives would only cost about $650.00. Some of the $250.00 MOBOs have 12 SATA ports and a RAID controller. You will not get the full performance of a GTX 1080 using an external Thunderbolt 2 enclosure. The Pascal will probably even get bottle necked by Thunderbolt 3.

[Tom Sefton] "Yes the new Mac Pro is more expensive, but I get tech support with Apple care and immediate repairs or replacement."

HP could offer extended services.


[Tom Sefton] "From what I've seen, a HP machine with top spec isn't cheaper than a new Mac Pro but I don't know how quick it is."

You can get Dual 8, 10 and 12 Core Xeons. You will also get PCIE slots.

[Tom Sefton] "It all adds up to a new Mac Pro being very much wanted and needed - just perhaps with a few more connection ports and the ability to add a second ssd and upgradeable gpu..."

The PCIE slots and expansion bays cannot be overlooked.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 29, 2017 at 9:11:32 pm

The benchmark for playback and editing with current camera files in raw 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8k footage is what I am interested in most, but I can't ignore that someone is wiling to hire an external RAID from me, when a home built PC is worthless aside from the work I can do with it.

The Red One is now an obsolete camera. The new colour spaces with the Helium and Weapon cameras take up far more computing power than 4K red one footage. A 2013 mac pro system with maxed GPU and RAM can playback 8K raw and edit, but after a while performance gets sluggish. 6K is fine at 25p. Weigh up the cost of a system that can do this, with tech support and external thunderbolt 2/3 access against a mac system. Then it becomes clear just how much we need a new mac pro system, with thunderbolt 2, 3 PCIE, USB 3 and upgradeable GPUs.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Darren Roark
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 30, 2017 at 1:07:29 am

[Tom Sefton] "A 2013 mac pro system with maxed GPU and RAM can playback 8K raw and edit, but after a while performance gets sluggish"

Hi Tom,

I haven't had any of the newest Red footage yet. Which system is this? 8K in FCP X? Better performance? I do know the file sizes remain the same yet the resolution keeps increasing, hence the need for more computing power I'm guessing.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 1:36:00 pm

Hi Darren,

This is on new mac pro systems, either a 6 or 8 core, both maxed ram and GPU. Footage on a Gtech 48TB Studio XL at RAID5 over thunderbolt2. FCPX in better performance. It plays, but is sluggish with 8K. 6K is fine.

Happy to put some 8K footage from the new Helium sensor in a dropbox for anyone to do some benchmarks with - esp hackintosh or PC systems.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 30, 2017 at 1:31:05 am

[Tom Sefton] "The benchmark for playback and editing with current camera files in raw 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8k footage is what I am interested in most,"

I can only let you know what my system can do with 4K Pro Res and 4K Native Red One R3D clips because I downloaded samples. I do not have any 8K video files.

[Tom Sefton] "I can't ignore that someone is wiling to hire an external RAID from me, when a home built PC is worthless aside from the work I can do with it."

It depends on what it is being used for. As I stated all new Apple computers must use external RAID systems. Or course you will get clients who need it.

[Tom Sefton] "The Red One is now an obsolete camera. The new colour spaces with the Helium and Weapon cameras take up far more computing power than 4K red one footage."

I agree.

[Tom Sefton] "A 2013 mac pro system with maxed GPU and RAM can playback 8K raw and edit, but after a while performance gets sluggish. 6K is fine at 25p."

A seven thousand dollar HP might get better performance but I don't have a $7,000.00 HP to test.

[Tom Sefton] "Weigh up the cost of a system that can do this, with tech support and external thunderbolt 2/3 access against a mac system. Then it becomes clear just how much we need a new mac pro system, with thunderbolt 2, 3 PCIE, USB 3 and upgradeable GPUs."

I agree the Mac Pro needs to have Thunderbolt 3. As far as up-gradable GPUS in the Mac Pro the easiest thing for Apple to do for their customers is offer a generic mATX system but they will not do it. If a generic mATX system was offered from Apple I bet it would out sell the current trash can Mac Pro by 10 to 1 if not 100 to 1. It may even tap into the iMac market. There is not a huge markup in generic ATX computers. Having said that you have to buy the trash Mac Pro be cause there are no other options.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 9:52:15 am

If you are willing to try, I'll dropbox you some 8K r3d files for you to test performance with via an internal RAID and an ATX system.

I can see that an internal RAID is cheaper, I'm just not convinced that cheaper is always better when it comes to hardware, especially when you have a revenue stream available with the external peripherals that are now widely available.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 10:03:42 am

[Tom Sefton] "If you are willing to try, I'll dropbox you some 8K r3d files for you to test performance with via an internal RAID and an ATX system."

We can try it if you have real short 10-15 second long clips. I do not have super fast internet. The video below might help put things into perspective. I forgot about this clip.







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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 10:10:08 am

Yes I can upload some shorter clips for you.

I've done plenty of my own testing with Red One media - I've also noticed vast performance differences from CC to FCPX with raw media on more recent cameras from Red.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 11:02:24 am

Do you actually have an 8K monitor? Just curious. I can play 4K Pro Res at full resolution but it works the CPU and GPU kind of hard. I don't have a 4K monitor so I just leave it at 1/2 resolution. That way I can apply cc and other effects. I myself just work with HD for clients creating web content.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 12:22:53 pm

There aren't any 8K monitors available for playback at present, just a couple of models announced. Much of our work goes to large projection screens for install in visitor centres/museums where high resolution displays are achieved via edge blended projection or video walls. We've got quite a few 4K displays for playback tests in our studio though. A recent project was filmed in 6K WS and delivered to a 4200 x 1200 (ish) resolution in a 3 blend projector theatre.

We've worked extensively in 4K and 6K where the CPU and GPU of the new Mac Pro is worked extremely hard, but performs incredibly well - offering realtime encoding from 4K Dragon to ProRes footage, and butter smooth playback. The new 8K Helium camera is stunning but obviously taxes your desktop machine even more for editing and post - hence my interest in what a PC can do with similar budget to a maxed out new Mac Pro with an external RAID.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 2:23:02 pm

[Tom Sefton] "There aren't any 8K monitors available for playback at present, just a couple of models announced."

That is what I thought.

[Tom Sefton] "Much of our work goes to large projection screens for install in visitor centres/museums where high resolution displays are achieved via edge blended projection or video walls."

Matrox makes good graphics cards for video walls.

http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/

[Tom Sefton] "We've worked extensively in 4K and 6K where the CPU and GPU of the new Mac Pro is worked extremely hard, but performs incredibly well - offering realtime encoding from 4K Dragon to ProRes footage, and butter smooth playback. The new 8K Helium camera is stunning but obviously taxes your desktop machine even more for editing and post - hence my interest in what a PC can do with similar budget to a maxed out new Mac Pro with an external RAID."

On the PC side you can opt for Dual 8 core Xeons and Dual Titan graphics cards. Keep in mind AMD is going to be releasing a 16 core 32 thread CPU soon. AMD will also release the Vega graphics cards soon. I doubt I will get a new PC myself because I am not editing feature films. I wish I had an excuse to get a new PC but I don't. My little Haswell CPU works OK for my needs just like a lot of FCPX user can edit just fine using an iMac. For those that must edit 8K at full resolution will AMD be a better option than Intel? Only time will tell.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 4:01:52 pm

Yes thanks for the link - my first edit suites were Matrox powered.

Most of the video walls we need are either interactive or require some form of show control for which Dataton Watchout is usually perfect for us.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Joe Marler
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 2:27:35 pm

[Tom Sefton] "I've also noticed vast performance differences from CC to FCPX with raw media on more recent cameras from Red."

The performance differences are not limited to Redcode Raw. Editing 4k H264 multicam on my 2015 iMac 27, FCPX is more responsive at "Better Quality" than Premiere CC 2017 is at 1/8 resolution. When fast forwarding on a two-camera 4k H264 timeline, Premiere's multicam monitor is more like a slide show -- it updates about every five seconds. Likewise, JKL keyboard lag is much worse on Premiere. This is on the same hardware and using the same media files.

Of course you can compensate for these performance issues in Premiere by building a fast custom machine, but you can do the same thing for FCPX if needed. Here is an easy-to-build $998 machine that's faster than a 6-core nMP with dual D700 GPUs:





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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 3:15:32 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Yes I can upload some shorter clips for you.

I've done plenty of my own testing with Red One media - I've also noticed vast performance differences from CC to FCPX with raw media on more recent cameras from Red."


I will try to play the files.

I will admit Premiere Pro 2017 did take a hit in real-time performance. Will it get fixed soon? Who knows? Premiere Pro 2017 is buggy because Adobe got rid of the beta testers. Adobe used to be a good company but not anymore. They are mediocre at best these days.


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Joe Marler
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Jan 31, 2017 at 8:13:21 pm

[andy patterson] "I will admit Premiere Pro 2017 did take a hit in real-time performance. Will it get fixed soon? Who knows? Premiere Pro 2017 is buggy because Adobe got rid of the beta testers. Adobe used to be a good company but not anymore. They are mediocre at best these days."

Some say that Premiere CC has developed stability and performance issues, but I have also encountered plenty of these on FCPX. 10.3.1 introduced a significant performance regression (so-called "drag lag" problem) on longer timelines and even shorter timelines with many connected clips. It is supposedly fixed in 10.3.2 but it still seems a bit laggy to me. There are also an uncomfortable number of crash reports on 10.3.x, and I spent a week isolating one for Apple which involves an immediate reproducible crash on import.

Despite my previous post about FCPX being faster than Premiere on 4k H264 multicam, I just tested a 2 hr 2-camera 4k timeline on FCPX and it is unusably slow without proxy -- on a top-spec 2015 iMac 27 with all media on a 4 x 2TB Thunderbolt 2 SSD RAID-0 array. Now that Adobe finally added proxy support to Premiere it is pretty fast on H264 4k. If you have to use proxy for 4k H264 on both Premiere and FCPX, you could argue what's the actual performance difference?

Maintaining software quality in a complex product is like pushing a huge boulder up a hill. A moment's inattention and it gets out of control.

Years ago of the CEO of FoxBase would walk among his developers with a stopwatch on a lanyard around his neck and demand impromptu timed performance tests of their code. I suppose that is not done anymore.


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 1, 2017 at 12:40:02 am

[Joe Marler] "Some say that Premiere CC has developed stability and performance issues, but I have also encountered plenty of these on FCPX. 10.3.1 introduced a significant performance regression (so-called "drag lag" problem) on longer timelines and even shorter timelines with many connected clips. It is supposedly fixed in 10.3.2 but it still seems a bit laggy to me. There are also an uncomfortable number of crash reports on 10.3.x, and I spent a week isolating one for Apple which involves an immediate reproducible crash on import."

Interesting.

[Joe Marler] "Despite my previous post about FCPX being faster than Premiere on 4k H264 multicam, I just tested a 2 hr 2-camera 4k timeline on FCPX and it is unusably slow without proxy -- on a top-spec 2015 iMac 27 with all media on a 4 x 2TB Thunderbolt 2 SSD RAID-0 array. Now that Adobe finally added proxy support to Premiere it is pretty fast on H264 4k. If you have to use proxy for 4k H264 on both Premiere and FCPX, you could argue what's the actual performance difference?"

On my system I wouldn't use proxy but one a laptop it might be wise. I am willing to state FCPX might get better performance on a laptop than Premiere Pro but others have state on a desktop it is more equal. With the PC we just have more hardware options.

[Joe Marler] "Maintaining software quality in a complex product is like pushing a huge boulder up a hill. A moment's inattention and it gets out of control."

Perhaps you are correct.


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Eric Santiago
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 1, 2017 at 2:25:45 pm

In regards to the $8K Mac vs $800 PC, I am sorry but the day I start working on PCs that cheap I might as well get out of this business.
I've had numerous PC workstations from Dells, BOXX, SGI (yes SGI!), HP, Compaq, Intergraph (uh oh I'm dating myself) and even the cMP (Mac Pro legacy in BootCamp).

Since 1994, the practice of going cheap with PC workstations went as far as trying to keep that one printer alive for longer than 2 years :P

Now, of course this was during my heavy CGI days with Maya, Softimage, 3DSMAX and etc....

I use both one being a loaded nMP.

I will still use my trusty BOXX for 3D work, but my nMP will always handle the Adobe updates as oppose to any Windows options.

For some reason everytime Adobe does an update, the PCs tend to throw up for a few weeks before finally settling in.

Just my opinion of course.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 1, 2017 at 3:51:03 pm

In regards to the $8K Mac vs $800 PC, I am sorry but the day I start working on PCs that cheap I might as well get out of this business.

Couldn't have put it better. Cheaper isn't always a good thing.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 6:40:35 am

[Tom Sefton] "In regards to the $8K Mac vs $800 PC, I am sorry but the day I start working on PCs that cheap I might as well get out of this business.

Couldn't have put it better. Cheaper isn't always a good thing."


So if the 2013 Mac Pro had the option to have a Kabylake 4.2 GHZ Quad Core CPU and a GTX 1070 for $980.00 you would not use it? I think you would use. In fact you would probably buy it faster then you can say FCPX. What if I built a system with those parts for $980.00? I think your are both upset that you cannot get an ass kicking editing system for under $1,000.00 from Apple so you mock those who can. By not using the Xeon CPUs and ECC RAM you can save money. Also using generic ATX parts is inexpensive.

For the record I have an OZC 750 Watt modular power supply that usually sells for $120.00. I bought back it in 2014 on Black Friday for $70.00. The next week it was back up to $120.00. See my point about ATX parts boys? Now you are both wiser.

I feel sorry for foolish people who would rather pay $120.00 for the exact same part that could have been bought for $70.00. Paying more money does not equate to a better product.

If Apple had an Easter Sale blow out and sold the $2,999.00 Mac Pro for $999.99 I bet you would both buy one : )


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 8:27:49 am

Who is mocking? I don't like buying cheap hardware - mostly because I'm not technically minded to spend my time either building or fixing it and would sooner spend my time doing my job. I've trusted Apple with my business for the last 7 years and so far it's gone pretty well.

You've built a PC that can edit for a smaller investment. Good for you - nobody is knocking that. I asked repeatedly about performance benchmarks and from what I can gather, to get similar performance to the Mac Pro for raw playback and export with tech support included, it isn't as simple as using a cheaper model because so far you have only said you can just about play 4K red one which is an obsolete format. Yes, someone out there can build a hackintosh system that will do it and will far exceed this - like Maxx does, only with thunderbolt 2 and 3 and Mac OS support, but that isn't me and there isn't a shop I can buy it from.

Paying more money does not equate to a better product? How so? You're mixing that up with saving money by having the expertise and patience to DIY. More expensive cameras and lenses are always a better product - otherwise the films you watch in the cinema or on Netflix would be shot with a £300 DIY camera. Plus with added investment comes potential revenue streams in hires which you asked me to disregard.

Let's just agree to disagree - I think that external peripherals have given great opportunities and performance boosts, along with the new Mac Pro being a great machine - it just needs an update to be able to produce the sort of projects that will be coming along in the next few years - like high resolution VR for instance, and if that means some more connectivity then fantastic. If you want to build your edit suite on your own, have the expertise to shop for parts and service them, great job - I don't. It doesn't make us any different - both editors. FCPX leverages performance from a screenplay system in a pretty fantastic way - more grunt for the machine and the next few years will likely be impressive.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 10:04:07 am

[Tom Sefton] "Who is mocking? I don't like buying cheap hardware - mostly because I'm not technically minded to spend my time either building or fixing it and would sooner spend my time doing my job. I've trusted Apple with my business for the last 7 years and so far it's gone pretty well."

People have had the Mac Pro fail. I forget what movie it was but the Mac Pros kept over heating. People have had iMacs, Mac Minis and Macbook Pros fail. You can be in a bind just like me. I can just get out of it easier than you using ATX parts.

[Tom Sefton] "I asked repeatedly about performance benchmarks and from what I can gather, to get similar performance to the Mac Pro for raw playback and export with tech support included, it isn't as simple as using a cheaper model because so far you have only said you can just about play 4K red one which is an obsolete format."

My video is old. Having sad that I kept things at 1/4 resolution because the video looks fine. I can play Pro Res at full resolution but ti will work the GPU and CPU. Keep in mind for $1,000.00 I could build a Kaby Lake i7 system with a GTX 1070. That would totally out perform my old system. I used a GTX 650 Ti and a 3.4 GHZ Haswell for that video.

[Tom Sefton] "Yes, someone out there can build a hackintosh system that will do it and will far exceed this - like Maxx does, only with thunderbolt 2 and 3 and Mac OS support, but that isn't me and there isn't a shop I can buy it from."

Why not become friends with someone who could build you a Hackintosh?

[Tom Sefton] "Paying more money does not equate to a better product? How so? You're mixing that up with saving money by having the expertise and patience to DIY. More expensive cameras and lenses are always a better product - otherwise the films you watch in the cinema or on Netflix would be shot with a £300 DIY camera. Plus with added investment comes potential revenue streams in hires which you asked me to disregard."

You are confusing camera parts with generic ATX computer parts.

[Tom Sefton] "Let's just agree to disagree - I think that external peripherals have given great opportunities and performance boosts, along with the new Mac Pro being a great machine - it just needs an update to be able to produce the sort of projects that will be coming along in the next few years - like high resolution VR for instance, and if that means some more connectivity then fantastic."

What I am saying is the PC gives you much more options at a cost effective price. Apple has you by the balls. As I stated AMD will have a 16 core 32 thread CPU out soon. It may or may not be an ass kicking CPU. Having said that what if it can cut 8K at full resolution? It might be wise to learn how to build your own Hackintosh.

[Tom Sefton] "If you want to build your edit suite on your own, have the expertise to shop for parts and service them, great job - I don't. It doesn't make us any different - both editors."

You might find building a Hackintosh to be fun but if you don't want to be tech savvy that is OK. Having said that I will try and play the short 8K files if you upload them. Premiere Pro 2017 did take a hit in real-time. It may or may not play the 8K file but I will at least try. I kind of want to know myself.


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Shawn Miller
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 3:22:36 pm

[Tom Sefton] " More expensive cameras and lenses are always a better product - otherwise the films you watch in the cinema or on Netflix would be shot with a £300 DIY camera."

Is an $80,000.00 Sony F900 with an $80,000.00 Canon lens really better than an Alexa Mini with a $9,000.00 Leica cinema lens? Sometimes, cheaper really is better.☺

Shawn



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Eric Santiago
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 2:57:24 pm

[andy patterson] "If Apple had an Easter Sale blow out and sold the $2,999.00 Mac Pro for $999.99 I bet you would both buy one : )"

Thats a no brainer but IMHO that doesnt equate to buying a low cost DIY PC.

I just dont trust having to build one.

If I had that much time, then I guess Im not writing, shooting, creating and producing anything worthwhile to me.

This field is hard enough on time as it is, why bash your brain against a wall trying to find a low cost power supply :P


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Shawn Miller
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 3:29:40 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Feb 2, 2017 at 3:30:31 pm

[Eric Santiago] "[andy patterson] "If Apple had an Easter Sale blow out and sold the $2,999.00 Mac Pro for $999.99 I bet you would both buy one : )"

Thats a no brainer but IMHO that doesnt equate to buying a low cost DIY PC.

I just dont trust having to build one.

If I had that much time, then I guess Im not writing, shooting, creating and producing anything worthwhile to me.

This field is hard enough on time as it is, why bash your brain against a wall trying to find a low cost power supply :P"


What if a low cost, DIY machine rendered your animations out 20% faster? That seems like a pretty good cost savings over the life of that computer. ☺

Shawn



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Eric Santiago
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 5:10:24 pm

[Shawn Miller] "What if a low cost, DIY machine rendered your animations out 20% faster? That seems like a pretty good cost savings over the life of that computer. ☺
"


Again cost saving depends on needs.

I just refuse to spend on unproven workstations.

If my BOXX breaks down, the warranty covers it.

Ive yet to break a nMP.

I work with over a dozen nMP in the last 3 years and no hardware issues to date.

Its mostly user error due to bad app/OS installs.


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Dominic Deacon
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 8:02:56 pm

[Eric Santiago] "Again cost saving depends on needs."

It honestly takes about half an hour to an hour to put a pc together. It's kind of fun and it's kind of cool cause you know what's in there and what to do if things go wrong.

[Eric Santiago] "I just refuse to spend on unproven workstations."

What's unproven though? The cpu will come from Intel. You'll just be able to buy a better cpu than is in the mac. Your solid state drive can come from there too. The GPU will come from nVidia which is where you want to come from. Buy big brand names for the other parts. These are all battle tested parts. I would instead call something like the Mac pro unproven when it first came out because of it's design.

[Eric Santiago] "If my BOXX breaks down, the warranty covers it."

If any part of my pc fails it's under warranty.

[Eric Santiago] "Ive yet to break a nMP."

Other people have though. I built my most recent pc 18 months ago. Over that period it hasn't crashed once- and it's massively overclocked- let alone any hardware issues. No reason for there to be either. They are all quality parts. They just happened to be cheap. It was $2,000 for parts that outspec any iMac and will outpace a Macpro in most applications- though not necessarily video apps.


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Eric Santiago
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 9:12:18 pm

The rabbit hole just got bigger with this topic.

Heard all this before, almost every year I've been in this business.

The only DIY I will ever spend time is on set for lighting/camera.

But that's to be expected due to ever changing circumstances that happen on set.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 9:15:29 pm

For people that have already done it (or are just into computers in general) it's easy (or at least easier). For people that don't have that background they might not want to put the time and effort into when they can just buy something off the shelf.

I used to build PCs as a hobby but I don't anymore. I've thought about doing a Hackintosh, but I just have the to find the time to do it (and find the right guide to get the features that I want).



[Dominic Deacon] "If any part of my pc fails it's under warranty. "

It is, but you are responsible for taking care of it. With Boxx or Dell or HP if you have a problem you call them and there's no finger pointing from various part venders because everything came from one company. And depending on which warranty plan you picked you could even have a tech come to your place and fix it on site.

It all just depends on how comfortable people are with things and how they want to spend their time and money. I mean, I know how to change the oil in my car and rotate my tires, but I take it to the shop for that because I'd rather pay them $25 to do it for me so I can spend more time/energy doing other things.


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 3:25:38 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I used to build PCs as a hobby but I don't anymore. I've thought about doing a Hackintosh, but I just have the to find the time to do it (and find the right guide to get the features that I want)."

I admit building a hackintosh is a bit trickier than a PC. I admit it is not a job for the average video editor. You have to make sure the mobo has a compatible bios/efi and the hardware is Mac compatible.


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Bill Davis
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 2:13:15 am

[Dominic Deacon] "It honestly takes about half an hour to an hour to put a pc together. It's kind of fun and it's kind of cool cause you know what's in there and what to do if things go wrong."

Sorry, but you're going to be hard pressed to tell me that doing the research and comparison to know that all the stuff on the left in this picture, is precisely what's BEST for your DYI rig config is going to get done in 30 minutes.

I totally get the satisfaction of spending those hours, days, weeks or months to educate yourself about how many Megahertz are best and which power supply is beefy enough to handle the RAM load. But you're never going to convince me that's a 3o minute gig.

It's a lifetime gig. And if you're comfortable acting as both editor AND systems integrator - the approach is PERFECT for you. It's just honestly a NIGHTMARE for many of us.

Especially knowing I can pickup what's on the right in one hour from a standing start anywhere in the US - and know exactly what its going to do. Everything is engineered to work precisely with everything else.

Custom building made sense to me back in the day when without optimizing every single component, you couldn't get the job done. But those days are gone. I'll totally admit you can get more "bang for the buck" with the DIY rig. The thing is, I'm not even close to convinced that I need anymore "bang" at all. I can run buckets of work through my practice without blinking. The hardware I use, a MacBook Pro actually - (lame as it may be to others) is orders of magnitude faster and more fluid than any other system I've ever cut on for the past 20 years. And I paid my bills for ALL those years. So I'm delighted to trade the former time spent reading component specs and figuring out which card is the best for the next 6 months - for more time playing with the dog.

That I can edit anywhere and leave the desk behind, is just extra goodness.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

(BTW, I lifted the "component group pic" and the (iMac pic) from a quick Google Search to make the point.
If I need take them down, somebody just let me know.)



Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 4:35:14 am

[Bill Davis] "Sorry, but you're going to be hard pressed to tell me that doing the research and comparison to know that all the stuff on the left in this picture, is precisely what's BEST for your DYI rig config is going to get done in 30 minutes."

Why would I research all the products on the left in your photo? That would be stupid. I don't research products I am not going to buy. Do you? Why would I? If I need a RAM module I just get the least expensive provided it is gskill, PNY, Crucial etc. It takes a whopping two minutes to look up an 8 GB RAM module on new egg. I am only going to look up what I need. You would spend the same amount of time if you need to upgrade the RAM in you iMac or Macbook Pro. If I need a floppy drive or a USB card reader I can just get the least expensive. They will work just fine. If I was to build a computer today I would just get an i7 Kaby Lake. No time wasted researching anything from AMD and I already now I don't want a core i3 or Core i5. Once AMD releases the Zen CPUs things will change. I have used the same case for 7 years. I have used monitors for 7 years. We PC users can reuse the parts when we get a new MOBO and CPU. With an iMac you have to buy every part new. Even your screen.

[Bill Davis] "I totally get the satisfaction of spending those hours, days, weeks or months to educate yourself about how many Megahertz are best and which power supply is beefy enough to handle the RAM load. But you're never going to convince me that's a 3o minute gig."

My prior comments address this but I am sure you would be forced to make decisions if deciding between an iMac and the Mac Pro. Do you want 4 core or 12 core? AMD D 500s or AMD 700s. You have to research external RAID systems if you are going to be editing 4K. I can just get 6 inexpensive 4 TB SATA Seagate drives. That is 24 TB of RAID for less than $600.00. I would take two minutes to order.

I would put zero time into choosing my RAID how much time would you spend researching an external RAID?

[Bill Davis] "It's a lifetime gig. And if you're comfortable acting as both editor AND systems integrator - the approach is PERFECT for you. It's just honestly a NIGHTMARE for many of us."

I have had many Mac users tell me they wish they knew how to build a computer. For many people it can be scary.

[Bill Davis] "Custom building made sense to me back in the day when without optimizing every single component, you couldn't get the job done. But those days are gone. I'll totally admit you can get more "bang for the buck" with the DIY rig. The thing is, I'm not even close to convinced that I need anymore "bang" at all."

I would tend to agree. My GTX 650 Ti and 3.4 GHZ Haswell can edit 4K just fine. I imagine it could edit 8K (not full resolution) but I do not know for sure.

[Bill Davis] "I can run buckets of work through my practice without blinking. The hardware I use, a MacBook Pro actually - (lame as it may be to others) is orders of magnitude faster and more fluid than any other system I've ever cut on for the past 20 years."

I doubt your Macbook will play 8K at full resolution. Tom Sefton has to be able to play at full 8K resolution.

[Bill Davis] "And I paid my bills for ALL those years. So I'm delighted to trade the former time spent reading component specs and figuring out which card is the best for the next 6 months - for more time playing with the dog."

I can play with the dog as much as you Bill if not more. I don't put lot of time into researching computer parts. Just because an ATX computer can accept all the generic parts on the makret does not mean I research each and every part when I go to buy a RAM module. I don't doubt I spend less time buying a RAM module than you do. I think you would have to find out the specs for your laptop first in order to buy RAM. I know my specs already. Want to race Bill?

[Bill Davis] "That I can edit anywhere and leave the desk behind, is just extra goodness."

I don't doubt your laptop works great for your needs but I think Tom Sefton would need to see a video of you editing 8K at full resolution on your laptop before he could buy a laptop.


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Tom Sefton
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 8:19:50 am

Andy, stop being passive aggressive and snarky. I asked honest questions using the biggest footage available that would give benchmarks on rendering and editing that could show how how your homemade rig would shine.

Ive done 10 mins of searching around and found a few benchmarks for high res export from homemade rigs vs new Mac Pro or MacBook Pro and it's enlightening. Thanks for the offer of testing the footage - let's park that one for now.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 12:34:19 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Andy, stop being passive aggressive and snarky. I asked honest questions using the biggest footage available that would give benchmarks on rendering and editing that could show how how your homemade rig would shine."

I am not being passive aggressive or snarky. I don't mind you asking questions but I do not have 8K video clips to test out on my system. I wish I did. If you send it I will test.

[Tom Sefton] "Ive done 10 mins of searching around and found a few benchmarks for high res export from homemade rigs vs new Mac Pro or MacBook Pro and it's enlightening. Thanks for the offer of testing the footage - let's park that one for now."

I am glad you found what you were looking for. Having said that at the time Pixel Corps and FCP.uk did there testing there were $1,600.00 PCs that could play the native Red One 4K R3D files at full resolution even though a $7,000.00 Mac Pro could not. Perhaps if the Mac Pro could have been configured with dual 8 Core Xeons and a single D 700 graphic cards it could have. Will a $6,800.00 PC play 8K at full resolution? I think the 16 core 32 thread AMD Zen processors will be a game changer but who knows for sure? Having said PCs will always have more options and offer more computing power until Apple offers a generic ATX workstation (they won't).


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Joe Marler
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 3:04:56 pm

[Dominic Deacon] "It honestly takes about half an hour to an hour to put a pc together. ...What's unproven though? The cpu will come from Intel....The GPU will come from nVidia...These are all battle tested parts....If any part of my pc fails it's under warranty....I built my most recent pc 18 months ago. Over that period it hasn't crashed once- and it's massively overclocked- let alone any hardware issues. No reason for there to be either. They are all quality parts...."

In a previous job I built hundreds of custom PCs for corporate use. On an *individual* basis a certain configuration might seem to work. But stress testing dozens of them under wide conditions would often reveal intermittent systems integration issues involving firmware, software, FGPA/ASIC versions, etc. This in turn required engineering-level interaction with the suppliers.

Companies like Lenovo or Dell are not just slapping together parts. The so-called "standardization" of modern PC components does not magically avoid all integration problems. There are engineers at those companies using expensive test instruments like this logic analyzer to debug those: https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-52kXRLG/0/X3/i-52kXRLG-X3.jpg

A single individual building his own PC does not have access to those resources. Yet standardization is good enough that you can often get away with building a PC and it usually works pretty well. I am typing this on a PC I built myself. However you can also get involved in bewildering, time-consuming debugging situations where the problem cause is unclear, esp. for intermittent and infrequent issues.

Re why doesn't Apple just build an ATX-form machine, one reason is they are looking to the future. ATX is an old paradigm rooted in the 1990s, and if modern designers were approaching the task today without that historical baggage, they'd do something different. You can see some discussion of this by industry professionals on RealWorldTech.com: http://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=163257&curpostid=164090

Each Thunderbolt 3 bus supports bi-directional transfers at 40 gigabits/sec (80 gigbits/sec total), which is faster than 4-lane PCIe 3.0, and real-world tests have shown that transfer rates above that haven't yielded much practical benefit (for GPUs): http://www.tested.com/tech/457440-theoretical-vs-actual-bandwidth-pci-expre... That said the PCIe interface (as opposed to a row of PCIe card slots) is definitely useful for high-speed SSD.

So while ATX and a row of PCIe card slots are comfortable and familiar, they are rooted in the past and if designers could start afresh today they would use different technologies. That is what Apple's doing.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 3:58:38 pm

[Joe Marler] "Re why doesn't Apple just build an ATX-form machine,"

I think his point was about using standardized and interchangeable parts so that Apple users could have more options at competitive prices. Even if engineers started with a clean slate today it would still behoove them to create agreed upon standards otherwise the cost of computers would skyrocket. Imagine if literally every computer line made (from Dell to HP to Acer to Boxx) was a custom form factor with a custom motherboard, custom GPUs, custom PSU, etc., and these parts weren't interchangeable across computer lines from the same company (let alone interchangeable across brands). It would be a nightmare.

Getting back to Apple for a second, the long of the short of it is that Jobs never wanted end users to have control. Woz is the one that wanted to keep Apple 'open' so people could mod/customize/tinker if they wanted too. The iPad and the iPhone (totally sealed, computing 'appliances') is always what Jobs ultimately dreamed of. The realities of the computing world kept Apple from reaching that goal up until basically a few years when Apple started soldering on components like RAM and ditched their last computer that had anything close to an open design (the old MP).


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 10:13:04 pm

[Joe Marler] "Re why doesn't Apple just build an ATX-form machine, one reason is they are looking to the future. ATX is an old paradigm rooted in the 1990s, and if modern designers were approaching the task today without that historical baggage, they'd do something different. You can see some discussion of this by industry professionals on RealWorldTech.com: http://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=163257&curpostid=164090"

ATX maybe old but it still works well. Keep in mind we went form ISA to PCI to AGP to PCIE. The ATX form factor did not change but the technology of computers has. I think it is possible that in the year 2025 the ATX computer may be a thing of the past.

[Joe Marler] "Each Thunderbolt 3 bus supports bi-directional transfers at 40 gigabits/sec (80 gigbits/sec total), which is faster than 4-lane PCIe 3.0, and real-world tests have shown that transfer rates above that haven't yielded much practical benefit (for GPUs): http://www.tested.com/tech/457440-theoretical-vs-actual-bandwidth-pci-expre..... That said the PCIe interface (as opposed to a row of PCIe card slots) is definitely useful for high-speed SSD."

I tend to agree. Thunderbolt will get even better. In another 2-3 years SSD will replace the mechanical HD. Things will change but the 2013 Mac Pro was not idea for a workstation at the time it was released. I am not saying it does not work but there should have been an option to get dual 8 core CPUs and one D-700 graphics card. PCIE slots and a few expansion bays would have been nice in 2013. In the year 2025 that may not be the case.


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 9:41:30 pm

[Shawn Miller] "What if a low cost, DIY machine rendered your animations out 20% faster? That seems like a pretty good cost savings over the life of that computer. ☺"

I would agree : )


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Bill Davis
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 2:18:01 am

[Shawn Miller] "What if a low cost, DIY machine rendered your animations out 20% faster? That seems like a pretty good cost savings over the life of that computer. ☺ "

If it was 10 hours vs 8 hours probably.

But if it's 10 seconds vs 8 seconds, Meh.

Rendering is now something I almost never think about.
My timeline works flawlessly without it, and when it's time to finally do it, 95% of the time, I discover my background rendering has done it while I wasn't thinking about it.

Computing in 2017 is quite a bit different than it was in 1997. YMMV.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 1:15:00 pm

[Bill Davis] "Rendering is now something I almost never think about.
My timeline works flawlessly without it, and when it's time to finally do it, 95% of the time, I discover my background rendering has done it while I wasn't thinking about it.

Computing in 2017 is quite a bit different than it was in 1997. YMMV."


I am not sure when Fast Multimedia introduced background rendering. I know they had it in 1999. Keep in mind that in 2003 Pinnacle/Fast Multimedia's Liquid Edition was able to use the graphics card just like FCPX and Premiere Pro CC. I used to have Liquid Edition. It was a good program. It had CPU Effects and GPU Effects. If you had dual Xeons you might want to use CPU effects. If you had a $300.00 graphics card you might want to use GPU effects. You could use a combination of the two. Things maybe different from 1997 but I used to edit like you about 15 years ago. With Media Encoder the need for background rendering from the timeline is not as important as it once was since you can edit projects while other projects are rendering in the background. What would Liquid Edition be like today if Avid did not end of life it in 2007? I imagine it would kick ass.



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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 2, 2017 at 9:39:46 pm

[Eric Santiago] "If I had that much time, then I guess Im not writing, shooting, creating and producing anything worthwhile to me."

If you have time to visit the Cow you have time to build a PC : )


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Eric Santiago
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 3:40:06 am

[andy patterson] "If you have time to visit the Cow you have time to build a PC : )
"


I will always have time to help others on here as well as REDUSER.

I should have known better not to get into this topic, but I was bored ☺

I do find time to post here when my nMP renders in 2 min intervals.

The ones that take long are usually in Resolve and they average 1 hour or more if working with a full feature.

To be honest I really don't know since I sched all my long renders over night :)


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Eric Santiago
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 3:47:05 am

Sorry to hijack this thread, since we have a few seasoned DIY PC builders here, what's your opinion on these Nvidia cards?

I am looking at an HP Z840 and they are offering these:

NVIDIA® Quadro® K4200 (4 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® K5200 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® M4000 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® M5000 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® K6000 (12 GB)

I dont have an idea on pricing and I am sure the K6000 is above my price range.

Its mostly for Maya and Renderman.

Ive posted similiar questions on Max/Maya and no reply.

Thanks in advance :)


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andy patterson
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 12:45:20 pm

[Eric Santiago] "Sorry to hijack this thread, since we have a few seasoned DIY PC builders here, what's your opinion on these Nvidia cards?

I am looking at an HP Z840 and they are offering these:

NVIDIA® Quadro® K4200 (4 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® K5200 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® M4000 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® M5000 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® K6000 (12 GB)"


You might find a Youtube video review of one of those cards. Keep in mind the AMD Zen CPUs will be out next month. The Zen CPUs may or may not be a serious game changer but I hope they are.


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Shawn Miller
Re: 2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube - FCPX editor upgrades 2013 Mac Pro
on Feb 3, 2017 at 6:16:42 pm

[Eric Santiago] "Sorry to hijack this thread, since we have a few seasoned DIY PC builders here, what's your opinion on these Nvidia cards?

I am looking at an HP Z840 and they are offering these:

NVIDIA® Quadro® K4200 (4 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® K5200 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® M4000 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® M5000 (8 GB)
NVIDIA® Quadro® K6000 (12 GB)

I dont have an idea on pricing and I am sure the K6000 is above my price range.

Its mostly for Maya and Renderman.

Ive posted similiar questions on Max/Maya and no reply.

Thanks in advance :)"


You probably won't see much of a difference in performance from the K5200 to the K6000... unless I've missed something and Renderman now supports GPU preview or rendering. Otherwise, the CUDA core count, amount of VRAM over 4GB, bus speed etc. won't really matter that much.

Shawn



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