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John Rofrano
Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 14, 2017 at 4:01:30 pm

I came across a graphics designer who placed this Mac Pro 2 concept on his site and I would buy one in a heart beat if Apple would only build it:

Check it out: http://pascaleggert.de/macpro.html



If only Apple cared about the Pro market. Where Pro means expandable / upgradable not consumer-based planned obsolescence.

What do you think? Cool concept?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Noah Kadner
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 14, 2017 at 4:34:17 pm

That design is still an issue if you want to add any cards besides GPUs... I'd take a huge breadbox.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops
XinTwo - FCPX Training


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 14, 2017 at 5:00:39 pm

[Noah Kadner] "That design is still an issue if you want to add any cards besides GPUs... I'd take a huge breadbox."

True, but it's still better upgradability than the current MP.

I don't think having the two, desktop class GPUs would work in that design though. It works in the current MP because Apple custom designed the whole thing to share a single, giant heat sink that was cooled by the fan. A typical GPU is designed to be in a case with sufficient airflow around so that it's own onboard cooling can dump off excess heat into the case. Unless Apple goes back to a more standard form factor I'm not sure we'll see off the shelf GPUs used.


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John Rofrano
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 14, 2017 at 5:51:24 pm

[Noah Kadner] "That design is still an issue if you want to add any cards besides GPUs... I'd take a huge breadbox."
Agreed. That's why I still have my big cheese grater.

But do you even need other cards? PCI Express (PCIe) is 12 years old! Preceded by PCI, EISA, & ISA. Maybe it's time for a change? Maybe Thunderbolt is that change?
[Andrew Kimery] "I don't think having the two, desktop class GPUs would work in that design though."
Yea, it certainly would not be as silent or cool as it is now with off-the-shelf GPU's.

Maybe whats needed is for all computer manufacturers to acknowledge that having every component provide for it's own cooling is absurd in 2017. What is needed is a standard design where cards can take advantage of the existing cooling properties of the case so that case manufacturers provide cooling and card manufacturers just provide cards. Then you could have a different card form factor with that prototype case that plugs into the backplane cooling system.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Noah Kadner
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 14, 2017 at 8:47:23 pm

Lots of luck getting consensus on thermal cooling designs.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops
XinTwo - FCPX Training


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 14, 2017 at 8:54:17 pm

[John Rofrano] "But do you even need other cards? PCI Express (PCIe) is 12 years old! Preceded by PCI, EISA, & ISA. Maybe it's time for a change? Maybe Thunderbolt is that change?"

AFAIK ThunderBolt operates over PCIe. Some people need the expandability and some don't. Those that do might also have a preference between adding a card internally vs having a dongle/box hanging off the back.

[John Rofrano] "Maybe whats needed is for all computer manufacturers to acknowledge that having every component provide for it's own cooling is absurd in 2017. What is needed is a standard design where cards can take advantage of the existing cooling properties of the case so that case manufacturers provide cooling and card manufacturers just provide cards. Then you could have a different card form factor with that prototype case that plugs into the backplane cooling system."

I don't think that would possible without a case being designed and built around a fixed set of components (like the new Mac Pro) since different CPUs, RAM, GPUs, hard drives, motherboards, power supplies, etc., all generate different amounts of heat.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 15, 2017 at 7:05:45 am

[John Rofrano] "But do you even need other cards? PCI Express (PCIe) is 12 years old! Preceded by PCI, EISA, & ISA. Maybe it's time for a change? Maybe Thunderbolt is that change?"

PCIe is constantly in development. Just like thunderbolt it has development history. There is no reason to think that PCIe wont be capable for many years. Thunderbolt lends itself to external high speed devices. Give me internal slots first any day. Simple to build and run from a single power supply in a rack case without spaghetti to peripherals like outboard card holders.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 15, 2017 at 5:40:13 pm

Michael writes -
Simple to build and run from a single power supply in a rack case without spaghetti to peripherals like outboard card holders.

OMG !!! What does the back of your 6,1 Mac Pro look like ? Everyone's looks like a spaghetti pile, with all the USB and Thunderbolt 2 ports coming off of it. Everyones computer faces out to them (back facing you) with the spaghetti of
monitors, drives, USB hubs, Blackmagic and AJA cards, flash drives, external drives piled up, thunderbolt to 10G adaptors. If that's not a spaghetti mess, then what do you call it ?

Because if you say "I just have my new Mac Pro, and my monitor, and nothing else hooked up to it, and I use wireless keyboard, wireless mouse, and WiFi" - then I can pretty much guess that you don't do this for a living.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 11:29:24 pm

[Bob Zelin] "OMG !!! What does the back of your 6,1 Mac Pro look like ? Everyone's looks like a spaghetti pile, with all the USB and Thunderbolt 2 ports coming off of it. Everyones computer faces out to them (back facing you) with the spaghetti of
monitors, drives, USB hubs, Blackmagic and AJA cards, flash drives, external drives piled up, thunderbolt to 10G adaptors. If that's not a spaghetti mess, then what do you call it ?"

My last Mac Pro was a 2009 cheese grater. My home built PCs are rack mounted in a machine room with beautifully loomed labeled inputs/outputs cables. From the back they go to my patch bays which are 99% normaled for most work so barely any patch cables required. I visit the back of the rack occassionally to plug in hard drives where I have a dedicated shelf to hold them and the racks have power boards built in. It is neat, organised and rarely needs any adjustment.

Changing GPUs is done by simply disconnecting the looms, sliding the PC out and dropping in the new card. Slide home and replug the loom. All 6 computers and three NAS units are networked so file transfers do not require plugging and unplugging from a spaghetti mess. I even have an old DVI switcher for monitor swapping between two computers in one control room.

So yes I do this as a business. I don't have time for shoddy spaghetti junction computers without sufficient onboard processing. I think you would appreciate the back of my three rack units more than anyone else here Bob.


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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 14, 2017 at 9:19:03 pm

[John Rofrano] "I came across a graphics designer who placed this Mac Pro 2 concept on his site and I would buy one in a heart beat if Apple would only build it:

Check it out: http://pascaleggert.de/macpro.html"


I used to state that for a single CPU configuration the older Mac Pro was way to big. For a Dual Xeon configuration it's size is OK. Having said that why can't Apple just offer a generic Micro ATX system? My mATX system is not much bigger than what the concept artist designed but it has much more functionality. If you watch the video at 6:05 you will see what I am talking about. Expansion bays are just as important as expansion slot. It would not want to give up either.







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Shane Ross
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 15, 2017 at 8:39:08 pm

"STANDARD COMPONENTS."

Apple won't do it because they don't do "standard components." Everything has to be new and their design and proprietary.

I'm with Andrew...the GPUs won't work in this design, there is not enough airflow. And still no card slots for other peripherals...although I can see Apple never adding that again. Apple doesn't care about stuff like that. They want smaller, sleeker...smaller...sleeker. Nor do I see them sticking with TB2 or USB3 connections...Apple is running with TB3/USB-C and won't look back.

If they can remove a pro feature to make it smaller, they will. They aren't aiming at high end video production anymore. They only care about their ecosystem.

"Does FCX run on it?"

"Yup."

"Pages? Numbers? Safari? Mail? Photos?"

"Yup."

"All the apps we offer through the App Store?"

"GREAT! Done!"

"But it still doesn't connect to our pho..."

"Wait, is there room to put a Magic Strip on that? People love those emojis..."

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 15, 2017 at 10:10:05 pm

[Shane Ross] ""STANDARD COMPONENTS."

Apple won't do it because they don't do "standard components." Everything has to be new and their design and proprietary."


I agree and it sucks for the customers.


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John Rofrano
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 12:39:43 pm

[Shane Ross] "If they can remove a pro feature to make it smaller, they will. They aren't aiming at high end video production anymore. They only care about their ecosystem."
That's what boggles my mind. I mean no one is complaining that their MacBook Pro isn't thin enough and everyone complains about having to cary around dongles and yet they continue to remove important ports like USB and camera cards to make it thinner which no one wants. Who are they designing for? Clearly not the Pro market. :(

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 4:22:15 pm

[John Rofrano] "Who are they designing for?"

Apple's design ideal is a 14 year old - committed consumers driven by the need to be cool and who seek approval from those around them. Obsessively slim and sleek their products are as androgynous, if not anorexic, as their target user. For Apple, if a 14 yer old can't figure out how to use it, it's too complicated, if they can't put it in their pocket, it's too large. Emoticons are better than words and legacy ports are so yesterday for someone who was literally born yesterday. It is not surprising that the circular mac pro went for cool over competence even though they dressed it all in black -- I assume they thought they were making something for their ideal customer's older sister.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bob Zelin
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 5:04:25 pm

Herb is of course, absolutely correct -

"For Apple, if a 14 yer old can't figure out how to use it, it's too complicated"

So, Professional users - please explain to me what is wrong with Apple's business model. Let me give you a little
"tech talk" to relate. Cisco is the "industry standard" for the switch business, and their products are complicated and expensive. They still use command line interface (CLI) to setup their switches. But today "any idiot" (like me) can go out and get a Netgear 10G switch, and without being "Cisco Certified", I can setup a 10G network for folks, just like you, at a fraction of the price of a Cisco network, with the same performance, and Mr. Big Shot IT Manager who has 25 years of Cisco experience is no longer needed. And of course, Mr Cisco Certified hates Netgear switches, but almost 300 installs later, Netgear 10G switches are super fast, reliable, easy to configure, cheap, and MOST IMPORTANT - don't need Mr. Cisco Certified.

Now, lets look at FCP-X and the whole Apple line of products. Got a nice DSLR camera, but have no idea of how to really use it ? Just plug it into a Mac, and VOILA ! - your pictures are downloading to your computer, and you never even read the manual - WOW - and they look "pretty damn good".

That's the market. I have said this over and over again. They do not want a market of 50,000 - 100,000 professionals, when they can get MILLIONS to do "our job" (just like Mr. Cisco), and they make billions of dollars while the 50,000 professional editors cry "boo hoo". It's not personal - it's just business.

And as I have observed over and over and over and over - Many "professional" older editors still are using their old Mac Pro's - still are running FCP 7, or AVID Media Composer V7.0. How do you get these professionals to go out and spend a few thousand on new hardware in 2017, or 2018 ? Simple - you can't - because their gear works JUST FINE, and they are making tons of money, and winning awards, with the current equipment that they have.
This translates to "this is not the market we want to appeal to anymore, because they won't go out and spend
$8000 for a new top of the line Mac Pro 2017 with Thunderbolt 3, Nvidia GPU and 128 Gig of RAM". Because Mr. 45 - 55 year old editor is more than happy with his current setup - it works just fine.
So they are just trying to stay in business (just like us), and appealing to a crowd that will hand over some money.

It ain't rocket science - just business.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Shane Ross
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 6:06:58 pm

[Bob Zelin] "This translates to "this is not the market we want to appeal to anymore, because they won't go out and spend
$8000 for a new top of the line Mac Pro 2017 with Thunderbolt 3, Nvidia GPU and 128 Gig of RAM". Because Mr. 45 - 55 year old editor is more than happy with his current setup - it works just fine. "


As someone who is just in that key demo...I recently needed a new machine. Because I'm dealing with new technology and needing to work with and deliver 4K...I get a new machine because camera tech and deliverables are changing fast. Then again, I'm dealing with the delivery part, so I need to be up on the tech. Old school editors can convert things to proxy and still use the old hardware.

Yup, there was a time when people would use the Avid they bought for 7-10 years. They had good reason to...it cost $80,000!

But seriously...the adage is true...why upgrade when what you have works? If it works...use it. I only upgraded my computer when my 2010 MacBook Pro no longer cut it.

So yes...I guess I am one of those guys! But I always have been...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 6:11:31 pm

I've always been the type that wouldn't just upgrade because something new and better came out. Upgrading for the sake of upgrading. It takes the thing I have no longer working, or being able to do what I need before I stop using it. iPhone 6 came out....I was still using my 4s. Until it died. I don't lease cars, I buy them, and drive them until they die. 69' VW bus had to go up in flames on the freeway before I stopped using it. And now I drive a 2001 Honda.

Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's better. Heck, I still like the older cars because they have manual window rollers. If they broke, it was an easy, cheap fix. Electric windows break? Dude....

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bob Zelin
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 6:50:17 pm

Hi Shane -
so with you in mind, why would I build a new car for you with the features that you want. So that maybe in 5 years, when your Honda blows up, you will think about me ?

You see the "Apple Nuts" on line at the mall, waiting on line for days to get the latest iPhone, iPad, whatever Apple comes out with - need it or not - they want it. Now THAT's who I want for a customer. And here on Creative Cow, where I am always yelling at people to throw out their old Fiber Channel cards, and AVID Unity's and buy new modern equipment - well, I get to install this new equipment, so those new customers will generate income for me. But for me personally - I am embarrassed to admit that my Mac's are a White MacBook, a 2009 Mac Pro and a 2012 Mac Mini. (I've got some HP Z series workstations too).
I had every intention of buying a new MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt 3, but after all the nightmare reviews so far, I will at least wait until NAB to see what options for expansion are out there. But there are those that say "I don't care, I want one of those new fangled thunderbolt 3 Mac Book Pros !". Well, that's the customer I would want - not me, and not you.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Shane Ross
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 6:57:18 pm

True...you only make money on those who buy things. Like how mattress stores are trying to say that mattresses have expiration dates now. "If it's 8 years old, it's time to replace it!" Because once you sell a $900 mattress, you won't see that repeat customer for 15-20 years...if then.

But yes, you make money with repeat customers who upgrade their stuff...I get that. And there will always be a need to do that....and tech progresses faster than mattresses.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 7:30:36 pm

The flip side is would Apple sell more of these machines if they updated them regularly? For example, between upgrading laptops and desktops I've bought a new machine from Apple every 2-3 years for the past 15 years or so (this includes home and work machines). That's a not too shabby customer, IMO. If Apple had released a nMP this year I would've bought one. If they release one this year I might still buy one, though I'm coming to terms with either attempting a Hack or switching to Windows (not sure which one will be less annoying).

Shane recently built a Hack because he needed a new machine and Apple's offering's didn't meet his needs. I've got another editor friend who loves to use Mac Mini's in his home studio for side projects, yet the Mini hasn't been updated in ages (and the last 'update' was a downgrade in some respects), so who knows what his next purchase will be. Even on the Mac-centric forums I go to there is a growing chorus of complaints about Apple's non-mobile product line up. Tim Cook said desktop things were coming this year, but he only name checked the iMac (not the Mac Pro) so we'll see what happens.

To you point though, when the iPhone makes up like 60%-70% of your revenue then of course that market gets catered to first. That wild money river won't flow fiercely forever though and iPhone sales are already flattening out as the smart phone market matures.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 7:31:16 pm

The flip side is would Apple sell more of these machines if they updated them regularly? For example, between upgrading laptops and desktops I've bought a new machine from Apple every 2-3 years for the past 15 years or so (this includes home and work machines). That's a not too bad a customer, IMO. If Apple had released a nMP this year I would've bought one. If they release one this year I might still buy one, though I'm coming to terms with either attempting a Hack or switching to Windows (not sure which one will be less annoying).

Shane recently built a Hack because he needed a new machine and Apple's offering's didn't meet his needs. I've got another editor friend who loves to use Mac Mini's in his home studio for side projects, yet the Mini hasn't been updated in ages (and the last 'update' was a downgrade in some respects), so who knows what his next purchase will be. Even on the Mac-centric forums I go to there is a growing chorus of complaints about Apple's non-mobile product line up. Tim Cook said desktop things were coming this year, but he only name checked the iMac (not the Mac Pro) so we'll see what happens.

To you point though, when the iPhone makes up like 60%-70% of your revenue then of course that market gets catered to first. That wild money river won't flow fiercely forever though and iPhone sales are already flattening out as the smart phone market matures.


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Shane Ross
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 7:24:12 pm

[Bob Zelin] "so with you in mind, why would I build a new car for you with the features that you want. So that maybe in 5 years, when your Honda blows up, you will think about me ? "

Issue is that Apple isn't building a computer with features that I want....or need. And leaving out all sorts of things I do need. BUT...good thing is that there are other cars being made that suit my needs. And I can build my own if needed...which I did.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 17, 2017 at 1:22:09 am

[Shane Ross] "Electric windows break? Dude..."

I had to laugh at this.

Three weeks ago - we decided to replace one of our two Honda Elements we've been using for 10 years plus for run and gun shoots. But just as we took it out of service to sell, the passenger side electric window failed.

The mechanic looked up the part and labor and quoted $300-400 for the fix.

Out of curiosity, I checked YouTube. Sure enough there were no less than 3 videos on how to pull and replace the window regulator. Got the part on eBay for $47 Those ugly, slow and totally less-than-professional "how to" videos were PERFECT. I has SEEN the repair step-by-step and knew all the traps and tips before we took out the first screw.

My son and I spent about 2 hours on Friday collaborating, (occasionally bitching at each other), and laughing as we took our sweet time replacing it.

The green Element is now ready to sell.

And I suspect I'm going to remember those two hours fixing it - with my son - for a long time.

FWIW.



.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 10:14:04 pm

Pro Market VS Consumer Market?

There is no such thing at Apple and never will be. There is only marketing hype along with smoke and mirrors. 95% of the Apple users drink the Kool-Aid. The other 5% do not matter. It is all about money. Apple knows there are users (5%) that would welcome a generic mATX computer system for $900.00 but Apple also knows the majority of the Apple user base will stay loyal no matter what Apple releases. If Apple used a generic Asus mATX mobo with a core i7 and a GTX 1070 Apple could not claim superior build quality if the exact same components were in a $1200.00 Dell or HP. Buy not offering generic ATX computer (that are much less expensive for the consumer but at the same time not as lucrative for the company) 95% of Apple users will think they have a superior product. As I stated the 5% that know the truth do not matter. That is why Apple has their funky proprietary forum factors. They use smoke and mirrors to give the illusion that the Apple products are better than a Dell or HP Computer. In the end they all use parts from Nvidia, ATI, Intel, Seagate, Crucial, Samsung, Foxconn, LG etc.

If Apple used generic ATX parts that are found in $900.00 Dell or $900.00 HP systems Apple would be hard pressed to charge $1,500.00 for the exact same thing. If you want a generic ATX computer there is Windows or Hackintosh. Apple will not sell generic ATX computers because they couldn't get a big 30% markup using generic ATX parts even though some user (5%) would welcome a generic ATX Apple computer. 5% of the user base is so small and there would be so little profit for Apple. If you are one of the 5% you have to accept the truth of reality.

If Apple sold a generic mATX computer with a GTX 1080 and a 4.2 GHZ Core i7 Kaby Lake CPU with 32 GB of RAM for $1400.00 how many of you would buy it?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 4:24:04 pm

[John Rofrano] " Who are they designing for? "

Courage.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 16, 2017 at 4:56:58 pm

[John Rofrano] "Who are they designing for? Clearly not the Pro market. :("

They are designing it around their vision of what the pro market needs, and it's what they've always done. They make something they want to make and customers can take it or leave it. Usually it's a hit (iMac, iPod, etc.,) but sometimes it's not (G4 Cube, Ping, etc.,). When it jives with what a user wants they mistakenly think "Cool, Apple made this for me" and when it doesn't they go "Man, why did Apple abandon me?" when Apple didn't target that user or abandon that user. Apple just made what they made and it happened to mesh with what that user wanted at the time.

For example, Apple never made I/O hardware like Avid or Media100 which is why it was seen as poor man's, non-pro NLE. Yet many of us were the 'poor man' back in the day and loved the fact that Apple made a solution that was accessible to us. Fast forward nearly two decades and many of us are more like The Man instead of the Poor Man and we are lamenting why Apple is making these non-pro things. Apple is largely targeting the same demo, but over time we have drifted out of that demo.

It's like hitch hiking. The driver and the passenger aren't necessary going to the same final destination, but for a time they are coincidentally headed in the same direction.


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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 17, 2017 at 12:42:22 am

[Andrew Kimery] "They are designing it around their vision of what the pro market needs, and it's what they've always done. They make something they want to make and customers can take it or leave it. Usually it's a hit (iMac, iPod, etc.,) but sometimes it's not (G4 Cube, Ping, etc.,). When it jives with what a user wants they mistakenly think "Cool, Apple made this for me" and when it doesn't they go "Man, why did Apple abandon me?" when Apple didn't target that user or abandon that user. Apple just made what they made and it happened to mesh with what that user wanted at the time."

I agree with everything except the first sentence. I don't think there is a pro market or consumer market. There is just Apple's way of thinking. Profits are more important than the customers needs.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 17, 2017 at 1:08:01 am

[andy patterson] "Profits are more important than the customers needs."

Any company that doesn't actually believe this is lying to you. I don't think Apple is any different in that regard. You don't stay in business very long if there are no profits, regardless of how happy the customers are. Unless of course, you're Avid.


- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 17, 2017 at 2:06:15 am

[Oliver Peters] "[andy patterson] "Profits are more important than the customers needs."

Any company that doesn't actually believe this is lying to you. I don't think Apple is any different in that regard. You don't stay in business very long if there are no profits, regardless of how happy the customers are. Unless of course, you're Avid.
☺"


All businesses want to make money but there is usually a little consideration for what would be good for the customer even if it is not top priority. Apple has no consideration for it's customer. I feel the same way about Adobe's CC paradigm. Apple and Adobe care about profits only. They do not care about making the best products possible for the end user.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 17, 2017 at 2:57:32 am

[andy patterson] "Apple has no consideration for it's customer. I feel the same way about Adobe's CC paradigm. Apple and Adobe care about profits only."

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I have dealt directly with people in both companies and simply don't get that vibe.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 19, 2017 at 6:25:45 pm

[andy patterson] " Apple has no consideration for it's customer. I feel the same way about Adobe's CC paradigm. Apple and Adobe care about profits only. They do not care about making the best products possible for the end user."

That's right. Just look at how evil Apple is in forcing their customers to pay continuously to use the products they used to be able to BUY once and use forever. It's disgraceful.

Wait....what?

; )

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 21, 2017 at 10:32:26 am

[Bill Davis] "[andy patterson] " Apple has no consideration for it's customer. I feel the same way about Adobe's CC paradigm. Apple and Adobe care about profits only. They do not care about making the best products possible for the end user."

That's right. Just look at how evil Apple is in forcing their customers to pay continuously to use the products they used to be able to BUY once and use forever. It's disgraceful."


I stated Apple nor Adobe care about the customer. Did you read it wrong Bill? Because right now you are helping to prove my point. I don't think renting from the CC is as beneficially for the customer when compared to the old CS paradigm. I know you like to mock all other companies except Apple but the bat shit crazy device below is the result of Apple not offering a work station for their customers who want it.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacproserver/index.html


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John Rofrano
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 21, 2017 at 2:17:33 pm

[andy patterson] "...the bat shit crazy device below is the result of Apple not offering a work station for their customers who want it. "
That actually looks like a practical device with one possible flaw. Hot air rises and the Mac Pro was designed to have the air flow in the same direction up and out of the case. I wonder if internal hot spots are formed within because the Mac Pro is mounted sideways? In an effort to also make their designs silent, I'm sure the fans spin just fast enough to aid the natural upward flow of heat which that design defeats.

Still I think it's great that people who care about the Pro industry are coming up with ideas to make Apple's products appeal to the Pro market even if Apple doesn't seem to want to. The Game-Changing OWC DEC which claims to "Make MacBooks ‘Pro’ Again" is another great example. I would buy of of these in a heart-beat if I had a new 2016 MacBook Pro because to me, having the proper I/O always available is far more important than how thin my laptop is (which I could care less about).



Still would have been better if Apple left a USB and SD Card Reader port available on the device. I have a 2015 MacBook Pro and will probably keep it for a very, very, very long time because it has a USB and SD Card Reader port of which I use both daily. IMHO there is no need for a laptop to be any thinner. Seriously, have you ever heard one person complain that their MacBook Pro wasn't thin enough? Does anyone sit at an Apple announcement event and the buzz around you is all about how people hope it will be thinner? NO! But everyone is complaining about loosing their i/o ports. It just boggles my mind. Why bother having a "Pro" line if you're not going to design it for "Pro" use? Let the base MacBook be thin enough to disappear, who cares. Let the Pro line differentiate itself by actually having features that the Pro market cares about.

But as you all pointed out... Apple doesn't design products for their customers; they design them for themselves and then try and convince customers that this is what they always wanted. Apple is in some kind of "thin is better" bubble that they just can't get out of. (anyone have a pin that can burst it and free them?) lol

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 21, 2017 at 11:29:50 pm

[John Rofrano] " [andy patterson] "...the bat shit crazy device below is the result of Apple not offering a work station for their customers who want it. "

That actually looks like a practical device with one possible flaw. Hot air rises and the Mac Pro was designed to have the air flow in the same direction up and out of the case. I wonder if internal hot spots are formed within because the Mac Pro is mounted sideways? In an effort to also make their designs silent, I'm sure the fans spin just fast enough to aid the natural upward flow of heat which that design defeats."


You are only saying it looks practical because Apple doesn't offer a generic ATX based system. In fact you are actually helping to prove my point by asking if the Mac Pro would cool efficiently. It is as big as a mATX computer case. Why not just state the obvious and say it would be nice for Apple to offer a generic ATX rack mount computer? Why not just cut to the chase? You would get more PCIE lanes an more functionality. Why settle for that expensive piece of crap that tries to make the Mac Pro into a workstation? Once again that proves my point that Apple doesn't care about the customer if you have to buy some expensive bat shit crazy 3rd party device to make the Mac Pro useable. I used to have a rackmount computer case. It was awesome at one time but for the set up I have now I don't really need it. Compare the prices.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811148059

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacproserver/index.html


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 22, 2017 at 2:33:53 pm

[John Rofrano] "Apple is in some kind of "thin is better" bubble that they just can't get out of. (anyone have a pin that can burst it and free them?) lol"

Not surprisingly, I see this very differently.

The people who think Apples game is "thin" I think are missing the point.

The goal isn't actually "thin" - it's "refined." If you refine your designs so it requires less space to pack in all the performance the vast majority of your customers need, what's the use of making it thicker just to accommodate stuff like old form-factor ports that need more space?

Would having a few more millimeters of empty space in the chassis cavity to allow bigger connectors make real sense if to get that you had to make the unit thicker than it actually needed to be? Seems kinda silly to me.

For decades new clients have asked me "ideally, how long should my video be?" I always answer " exactly as long we need to make it to effectively communicate the message we need to send, and not a second longer."

What's the problem with applying the same standard to laptops?

Finally, I think there are other GREAT company wide benefits to the design philosophy that allows for thin laptops. That same culture of "refinement" in manufacturing prowess becomes even more useful when you start working beyond laptops and tablets and are packing "capability density" into phones, watches, and maybe someday sophisticated medical devices.

Again, you're free to see this as a quest for "thin" but it's equally valid to see it as a quest for refinement - that has the SIDE EFFECT of allowing thinness. Building expertise in packing more and more capability in less and less physical space. That seems kinda fundamentally smart to me.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Steve Connor
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 22, 2017 at 3:03:01 pm

[Bill Davis] "Building expertise in packing more and more capability in less and less physical space. That seems kinda fundamentally smart to me."

But in some ways there's LESS capability as you have to add external devices to replace the connectivity that's been lost.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 22, 2017 at 3:14:40 pm

[Steve Connor] "But in some ways there's LESS capability as you have to add external devices to replace the connectivity that's been lost."

Their target user (14 year old) isn't going to add anything external, if some old fuddy-dudies need something then they can dongle themselves into oblivion. A win-win in Cupertino.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 23, 2017 at 3:11:06 am

[Steve Connor] "But in some ways there's LESS capability as you have to add external devices to replace the connectivity that's been lost."

If there's an adapter - you do not lose any "capability" at all. Only temporary "convenience" which disappears as you refresh your gear as manufacturers migrate to the new standard.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 22, 2017 at 1:05:08 am

[andy patterson] "I know you like to mock all other companies except Apple but the bat shit crazy device below is the result of Apple not offering a work station for their customers who want it. "

A) please find a post of mine where I have mocked AVID or ADOBE or SONY or any other NLE vendor EVER.

Yes, I do call out some of their business and marketing decisions occasionally, cuz I have some expertise in that realm. But, I generally don't comment on programs about which I am largely ignorant. Odd position, huh?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 22, 2017 at 3:39:17 am

[Bill Davis] "A) please find a post of mine where I have mocked AVID or ADOBE or SONY or any other NLE vendor EVER."

You wrote the following below Bill.

"That's right. Just look at how evil Apple is in forcing their customers to pay continuously to use the products they used to be able to BUY once and use forever. It's disgraceful".

Is that not mocking Adobe's CC? I am not a fan of the CC myself so I don't mind the comment.

[Bill Davis] "Yes, I do call out some of their business and marketing decisions occasionally, cuz I have some expertise in that realm. "

In another thread you asked about my credibility. Did you even bother to read my response?

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/92829

Having said that we all have enough expertise to make comments about Adobe, Apple, Blackmagic, MS, Avid etc.

[Bill Davis] " I generally don't comment on programs about which I am largely ignorant. Odd position, huh?"

What you do a lot is talk about how great FCPX is and how advanced and innovative it is without realizing other software programs can do the same thing and sometimes did it long before FCPX. If you knew the full potential of the other software programs you probably wouldn't be so giddy about FCPX. I guess what I am saying is you will do something in FCPX, you will think it is amazing and wonder why we don't all go out and buy FCPX when the sad truth is the other NLE can do the same thing. Also if you kept current about technology you would know the full potential of the Surface Pro. Having said that FCPX is a good program but it could use improvements just like Avid, Edius, Premiere Pro etc.


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 22, 2017 at 2:08:25 pm

[andy patterson] "[Bill Davis] "A) please find a post of mine where I have mocked AVID or ADOBE or SONY or any other NLE vendor EVER."

You wrote the following below Bill.

"That's right. Just look at how evil Apple is in forcing their customers to pay continuously to use the products they used to be able to BUY once and use forever. It's disgraceful".

Is that not mocking Adobe's CC? I am not a fan of the CC myself so I don't mind the comment. "


It is not because everyone here knows I do my best NEVER to negatively comment on software I don't actually have direct experience with. the business model, however IS fair game. I dislike that and everyone here knows it. Perhaps you're just too new in these parts to understand the context?


As to your second point, please explain what exactly does one of Scott's posts linking one of my friend Olivers articals have to do with you?

And finally.
Cool, your position is that the other programs are advanced in ways I just don't understand.
Convince me. Give me your top three capabilities that another software package can do that X can't? I'd cite Range based tagging, the magnetic timeline, and Roles as innovations singular to X - so help me understand about the equivelents or similar unique features in the other NLEs.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 23, 2017 at 4:39:19 am

[Bill Davis] "Is that not mocking Adobe's CC? I am not a fan of the CC myself so I don't mind the comment. "

It is not because everyone here knows I do my best NEVER to negatively comment on software I don't actually have direct experience with. the business model, however IS fair game. I dislike that and everyone here knows it. Perhaps you're just too new in these parts to understand the context?"


I don't care if you do your best dude. You do at times mock other companies and talk negatively about other software programs so get over yourself dude! My being new doesn't change the fact that you are a perpetual cheer leader for the Apple corporation shaking your pom poms when ever possible. I cut down Adobe and MS more than I do any other company but if I want to mention the short comings of the Apple Corporation I will do so. I don't need your permission. Learn to deal with it! And whether you want to admit it or not I do know about the specifics of the software and products I criticize.

[Bill Davis] "As to your second point, please explain what exactly does one of Scott's posts linking one of my friend Olivers articals have to do with you?"

Are you trying to dictate what I can and cannot say and what threads I can post to? What gives you the right? You don't see me treating you that way nor do I see you treating other people that way. Why am I the lucky one Bill? I think you are upset because you know my criticisms about Apple are correct. If my posts upset you Bill learn to deal with reality. You are not my mom or legal guardian. Having said that I probably know a lot more about computers than you ever will and I can add an interesting perspective to these forum. I provided the link below not you. Not to mention my comments were dead on! All you want to do is shake your pom poms for Apple. How is that productive?

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/xmacproserver/index.html

[Bill Davis] "And finally.
Cool, your position is that the other programs are advanced in ways I just don't understand.
Convince me. Give me your top three capabilities that another software package can do that X can't?"


This is a strawman argument because I never stated the other programs can do things FCPX cannot do. I stated you will do something in FCPX and think it is amazing and revolutionary when in fact other programs can do the same thing. Having said that didn't someone just recently inform you that we can buy stock photos within Premiere Pro? Can FCPX do that?

[Bill Davis] "I'd cite Range based tagging, the magnetic timeline, and Roles as innovations singular to X - so help me understand about the equivelents or similar unique features in the other NLEs."

Once again you are using a strawman to try and hide the fact that you are a cheerleader for the Apple corporation. I never stated FCPX does not have features not found in other programs. If I had made the statements you claim I did you would have quoted me but you cannot quote me because I never made those statements. I am also not afraid to call you out on it. Having said that what you do is take quotes from two different post and try to make it seems as though they are from the same post when in fact you are taking the quotes out of context and you know it.

Care to continue going tit for tat Bill?

I have to say I have never came across anyone like you before in a discussion forum. In another thread you had asked me about my credentials. I gave them to you. Did you read them? I think you did and you were upset to learn I worked with high-end broadcast equipment so you didn't bother responding. I know you asked that question in hopes that my experience consisted of wedding videos (I am not knocking wedding videographers but I have never done it myself). Having said that do you ask everyone their credentials? As I sated in my other response to you if I loved honored and worshiped Apple you would not have asked for my credentials. I don't care about you credentials or anyone else's. Why would I? People either have an interesting perspective on the topics in this thread or they don't regardless if they ever edit video for a living. I find your perspectives to be bat shit crazy at best regardless of where you work. You seem to go ballistic and bat shit crazy anytime anyone tries to make a suggestion about FCPX or Apple in general. Your response is always childish. You more often than not attack a strawman than the actual topic or issue and think you are being super clever. No one sees you as clever when you start shaking your pom poms for Apple. I think the word silly might apply.

Miss quoting people and making false accusations will not make FCPX better. I may be new to these forums Bill but I feel confident that people can easily see you love to shake your pom poms : )


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 23, 2017 at 10:23:08 pm

[andy patterson] "You do at times mock other companies and talk negatively about other software programs so get over yourself dude!"

An hour ago I was helping a bit on learning theory - cuz I'm trying to do some work in that area - and I stumbled across this quote:

"...the quality of adaptation is thoroughly dependent on the quality of the stress." - Mark Rippertoe

Thats QUITE insightful, IMO.

I can see I am a bit stressed these days.

As I suspect, you are too.

So I'll leave things there.

To the group in general, I apologize for my tone lately.

Back to work.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 19, 2017 at 5:41:09 pm

Too bad this would still require bespoke GPUs, even if the form factor is standard length PCIe. Otherwise you have to resort to something like this:



"One of the main advantages of Thunderbolt™ 3 is its ability to carry a video signal, but as X99 platforms don’t have a GPU integrated in the CPU, the Thunderbolt controller needs to link with a discrete graphics card. In order to solve this conundrum, GIGABYTE designed the GA-X99P-SLI with a DisplayPort input on the back I/O allowing users to pair their system to a monitor with a Type-C connector (the required cables to connect the graphics card to Thunderbolt controller are bundled with the board)."

source here

Best,
Andy


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 19, 2017 at 6:35:04 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jan 19, 2017 at 6:45:58 pm

Isn't the hope that the as the data pipes continue to get bigger - stuff like an array of GPUs can be moved OUT of the computer chassis where you can isolate the noise and heat to preserve a simple and quiet work environment?

I know I still have to use a separate audio recorder combined with switching to my iPad for script display when I'm doing voice work.

Having a single computer screen for script scrolling while simultaneously recording everthing into the editorial machine would be ideal - but because even my MacBook Pro's modest fans will infect the audio track, I still have to basically work double system for VO recording.

I had hoped that the 12" MacBook we picked up last year (fanless) would step up and fill this slot - but I haven't found a way to successfully adapt the single USB Type C port on it to my current Zoom Tac-2 audio interface that requires Thunderbolt. I can adapt the ports easily enough - but it appears the lack of power transfer to the audio interface keeps it "dead" when connected. Bummer.

The dream of "a single system that does it all!" - remains tantalizingly out of reach for me.

FWIW

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 19, 2017 at 7:16:47 pm

TB3 is the best shot yet at a fully realized external GPU pipe, given its bandwidth capability. Indeed, even the PC gaming world is embracing the idea.

I just felt someone needed to speak up and point out that however tantalizing this artist's rendering is, it has some rather gaping technical faults in the design that make it impractical to actually build. I mean, just add up all the PCI lanes required by this concept art and you can see that it runs on unicorns and fairy dust.

Best,
Andy


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Bill Davis
Re: Mac Pro 2 Concept -- (if only Apple cared about the Pro market)
on Jan 19, 2017 at 7:25:42 pm

[Andrew Richards] "you can see that it runs on unicorns and fairy dust."

Shoot. I only have a license for unicorns and fairy dust LITE.

I'm screwed.

; )

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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