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Something else to debate!

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Scott Witthaus
Something else to debate!
on Jan 10, 2017 at 5:38:32 pm

Thanks Oliver!

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2016/12/31/2017-technology-predictions/?...

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 10, 2017 at 5:47:01 pm

You're welcome.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 10, 2017 at 6:44:08 pm

Good article, thanks for posting and thanks to Oliver for writing.

One comment on this thought -

"Among some users, many would love to cut the Apple chord, and I predict the Surface and Surface Studio are just the tools to enable that move."

Untill ProRes gets replaced as a deliverable requirement, a large segment of editors will stick with OSX under duress. It makes no sense that this is still the case, but then many things in life are just accidents of history.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 10, 2017 at 9:49:28 pm

Oliver,

Do you have any hands on time with the project sharing in PPro? From what I've seen (just videos, no hands on time) it looks like editors still work in separate project files and you basically hit a 'sync' button that pushes your current project to the other editors and then they hit 'okay' to accept your changes. If there are any conflicts then you have to resolve them. This seems like a very clunky and less useful solution compared to Avid where everyone literally works out of the same project.

On an unrelated note, I agree that BM feels like a front runner to pickup MC, but I just can't figure out what they would do with it. They're putting so much time/money into morphing Resolve into an capable NLE that adding a competing NLE to their line up sounds too cannibalistic unless you think that Resolve will never be more than an finishing system with 'okay' NLE abilities.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 10, 2017 at 11:23:42 pm

I too wonder what BM might do with MC. They recently bought Fairlight which will bring a lot of IP and software smarts to audio in Resolve plus a lot of interchange format smarts and FPGA experience so I certainly see the logic of that purchase.

But Avid? Not sure if I see as much advantage to BM as the Fairlight purchase. Depends on the price I suppose. Maybe the idea is like Fusion to have a send to/from function between MC & Resolve plus some IP and smarts with project sharing. Maybe BM sees market share for MC that overlaps rather than competes with their development of Resolve as an NLE.

Perhaps long term thinking is a super tool that has MC editing, Fusion compositing, Fairlight audio and Resolve grading all in a single master tool that can start and finish an entire project in one software bundle. This won't be of much interest to single user laptop editors perhaps as it will need a grunty system and likely be best in a collaborative/ shared edit environment.

Overall I agree with Oliver that Win 10 & PC hardware will be an area that media professionals will be migrating to. The fact that a proprietary codec like ProRes has been embraced by broadcasters is a stumbling block. We all have to be DNx and .mxf capable these days so it seems like a more logical codec and wrapper to be embracing. Maybe as HDR deliverables come in there will be a new file deliverable definition which will not be QT based. At that point ProRes will lose its grip perhaps.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 11, 2017 at 2:06:00 am

[Michael Gissing] "But Avid? Not sure if I see as much advantage to BM as the Fairlight purchase."

I would see it as buying marketshare in the editing space. Resolve really isn't going gang-busters as an NLE. It can get the job done, but it's not where the others are yet.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 11, 2017 at 2:23:42 am

Maybe Apple will buy Media Composer and then kill it.

Kidding, just kidding....

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Michael Gissing
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 11, 2017 at 2:58:39 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Maybe Apple will buy Media Composer and then kill it. Kidding, just kidding...."

Wouldn't be the first time they bought up and killed off within a short cycle. Nor are they the only company to do such a thing.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 11, 2017 at 5:08:34 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "On an unrelated note, I agree that BM feels like a front runner to pickup MC, but I just can't figure out what they would do with it."

The rumor was that Avid EOLed DS (rather than selling it) because of some IP restrictions. What if the same is true with MC? What if you have to buy Media Composer, you also have to buy the entire Interplay family (or vice versa)?

It's entirely possible that MC goes to a big broadcast-engineering company instead of a content-creation-tool company, or even that MC never finds a buyer with a real strategic interest.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Charlie Austin
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 13, 2017 at 5:58:50 am

[Herb Sevush] "predict the Surface and Surface Studio are just the tools to enable that move.""

For photo editing/Illustration? Maybe. For compositing, drawing masks etc? Maybe. For video editing? No thanks... And that's not an "Apple vs PC" statement. If the Surface Pro was a Mac I'd still have no interest. My hands are basically stationary on the mouse and KB, I have no desire to wave my hands around on a touchscreen day after day.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 13, 2017 at 11:01:36 am

Are you saying hands down the mouse and keyboard will always be more proficient than a touch screen and surface dial for video editing?

Can you simultaneously open two bins at once using the mouse and keyboard? Can you scrub the timeline in FCXP while while simultaneous muting the audio for channels one and six using the keyboard and mouse?

Watching other people simply click on tabs and start adjusting parameters in Photoshop and Lightroom with their hands using the Surface Studio seemed more proficient and natural than using a keyboard and mouse but perhaps I'm wrong. Having said that I don't doubt Apple is looking to emulate the Surface Studio but I doubt Microsoft is trying to emulate the touch bar.

It is a paradigm dilemma. Touch bar or touch screen? You be the judge!


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Herb Sevush
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 13, 2017 at 2:47:22 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Herb Sevush] "predict the Surface and Surface Studio are just the tools to enable that move."""

I don't know where you got that quote, but it definitely wasn't from me. I'm an old troglodyte with short stumpy mangled fingers that wouldn't use a touch screen on a bet. I've never predicted anything about the Surface Studio and, other than as a comparison to Apple's touch bar, something else I have no interest in, I have no interest in it. Long live the keyboard and the mouse!

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 13, 2017 at 4:44:09 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I don't know where you got that quote, but it definitely wasn't from me."

oops... quoted your quote of Oliver.

[Herb Sevush] " I'm an old troglodyte with short stumpy mangled fingers that wouldn't use a touch screen on a bet."

lol :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Walter Soyka
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 13, 2017 at 2:51:35 pm

[Charlie Austin] "My hands are basically stationary on the mouse and KB, I have no desire to wave my hands around on a touchscreen day after day."

I use both a Surface Pro and a MacBook Pro. I can't tell you how fingerprints I've left on my MBP screen trying to interact with it by touch.

I find that touch supplements other interfaces rather than replacing them entirely, and I definitely miss it when I don't have it.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 13, 2017 at 3:00:21 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I use both a Surface Pro and a MacBook Pro. I can't tell you how fingerprints I've left on my MBP screen trying to interact with it by touch."

I think everyone and their brother has tried to 'pinch zoom' on my MBP screen when looking at pictures.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 13, 2017 at 4:47:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I find that touch supplements other interfaces rather than replacing them entirely, and I definitely miss it when I don't have it."

I can see that being the case, I guess for me it might be nice to have for some things, but not a game changer for cutting.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 13, 2017 at 6:11:02 pm

I tend to be a mouse and keyboard person, too. I did a review of one the HP all-in-ones with a touch screen. The accuracy was very coarse, so it seemed better suited for kiosks than actual production. But if the accuracy is high (like with a Cintiq or an iPad) - which I presume the Surface Pro features - then I could see it for graphics and photo-retouching.

It seems like the orientation is best when nearly flat and you are leaning over it. This is pretty much how Microsoft has demoed the Surface Pro in videos. In that sort of layout, it could, in theory, become a modern version of a Moviola, given the right software. Right now TouchEdit on the iPad is really the only thing close to that approach for NLEs.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 14, 2017 at 1:00:12 am

[Walter Soyka] "I find that touch supplements other interfaces rather than replacing them entirely, and I definitely miss it when I don't have it."

I would agree. There will be times when touching the screen will be faster than a keyboard and mouse and there will also be times when a keyboard and mouse can be more efficient than a touch screen. I am sure the Apple engineers have a Surface Studio in their office and are blown away with how fluid the interaction can be. Apple needs to offer the option of touch screen and let people decide what works best for their needs. Apple users may say touch screen is a waste of time but keep in mind they haven't really used it. People who have used touch screen along with the keyboard and mouse like like it.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 14, 2017 at 7:15:36 am

And there are times when dedicated control hardware beats touch screen and keyboard/mouse.

Personally I am not a fan of touch screens. The ergonomics are often poor and the smudge marks on screens put me off. Surface Pro looks like the ergonomics are designed around standing, which is impractical for my facility. Even on touch screen machines like tablets I use a stylus. Remembering keyboard shortcuts is a pain when you constantly swap between NLEs which I am doing far less these days.

One feature of the purchase of Fairlight by Blackmagic is that Fairlight have a smart keyboard with dedicated jog and edit keys that is totally variable depending on the function of the DAW. So editing, mixing, etc functions have relabeling keyboards. So Resolve may end up with a much smarter keyboard based interface than any combo of touchscreen, ASCII keyboard and mouse can offer. Ironically Fairlight made a driver so anyone running Premiere and Fairlight could use the Fairlight keyboard for editing on Pr. I was tempted to beta test this but decided to do without CC.


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 14, 2017 at 10:24:22 am

[Michael Gissing] "Personally I am not a fan of touch screens. The ergonomics are often poor and the smudge marks on screens put me off. Surface Pro looks like the ergonomics are designed around standing, which is impractical for my facility."

[Michael Gissing] "One feature of the purchase of Fairlight by Blackmagic is that Fairlight have a smart keyboard with dedicated jog and edit keys that is totally variable depending on the function of the DAW. So editing, mixing, etc functions have relabeling keyboards. So Resolve may end up with a much smarter keyboard based interface than any combo of touchscreen, ASCII keyboard and mouse can offer."

Won't the smart keyboard interface you described get filthy smudge marks? You stated earlier you hate smudge marks. My keyboard gets filthy all the time and if truth be told it is much harder to clean than my computer screen. Keep in mind with touch screen you could simply run dual monitors and have a small touch screen monitor on your desk with the mixing board part of the DAW. There would be no need to stand up and I think we will see more interesting touch screen options in the future. Having said that Cakewalk is getting more responsive with tough screen. Some are starting to preferring touch screens over an actual control surface. In the end it is nothing more than personal choice. A personal choice that Apple refuses to offer it's users.

[Michael Gissing] "And there are times when dedicated control hardware beats touch screen and keyboard/mouse."

Who knows what things will be like in the year 2021?


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Michael Gissing
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 14, 2017 at 11:54:59 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Jan 14, 2017 at 11:58:27 am

[andy patterson]"Won't the smart keyboard interface you described get filthy smudge marks?"

Have a look at the Fairlight keyboard controller.
http://www.fairlight.com.au/products/post-production/xynergi/

The keyboard is basically an ASCII keyboard with transparent keys. Underneath is a screen. So the keyboard can be mapped by having the screen change under the keyboard. The Fairlight keyboard doesn't seem to get dirty. Certainly nothing like a touch screen. After using my keyboard for many years it has required minimal cleaning, even less than my other keyboards.

I have seen little development in keyboards, mice, and touch screens over the past 20 years. My original DAW dSP had a touch screen option over twenty years ago. The Fairlight approach has been one of the few smart dedicated controller developments over that time and it has been available for the past decade. I have often stated how perplexed I have been at the lack of decent ergonomic controllers in the NLE world when speed and ergonomics are key to comfortable fast working. There is still much that can be learnt from twenty years of DAW hardware and software.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 14, 2017 at 4:16:24 pm

If only a keyboard like the Optimus Maximus was in mass production (and didn't cost a fortune).

http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 14, 2017 at 9:05:58 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "If only a keyboard like the Optimus Maximus was in mass production (and didn't cost a fortune).

http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/"


Touch screen vs control surface or even keyboard and mouse might be influenced by the GUI. As of now FCPX does not have the customization that Premiere Pro offers. In the end I think it will depend on the user and the software being used. As I have stated we will probably see more touch screens on the market and the price will probably drop as well. Price vs functionality will probably play a role for most users. Having said that I will admit the Surface Studio and Surface Dial did seem impressive. The Surface Dial will probably drop in price or perhaps we will see less expensive imitations in the not so distant future.


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 21, 2017 at 2:44:00 am

[andy patterson] "As of now FCPX does not have the customization that Premiere Pro offers. "

That's a massively broad claim.
Could you explain the assertion please?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 15, 2017 at 8:00:01 am

[Andrew Kimery] "If only a keyboard like the Optimus Maximus was in mass production (and didn't cost a fortune)."

It is an idea very similar to the Fairlight controller but implemented differently with transparent keycaps and changing display underneath, in this case individual OLEDs.

I still think the Fairlight controller with dedicated jog, transport and touch sensitive rotary pots is superior.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 15, 2017 at 7:58:21 pm

[Michael Gissing] "I still think the Fairlight controller with dedicated jog, transport and touch sensitive rotary pots is superior."

Probably, though the downside to dedicated controllers like that is cost, learning curve and it possibly not supporting all the apps one needs it to support. Keyboards aren't primary interfaces for NLEs because they are great at being primary interfaces for NLEs, they are primary interfaces because they are ubiquitous. There will be pockets of people that like and use other peripherals, but most people will stick with the keyboard and mouse/trackpad because that's what they know and are comfortable with.


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 14, 2017 at 8:57:18 pm

[Michael Gissing] "[andy patterson]"Won't the smart keyboard interface you described get filthy smudge marks?"

Have a look at the Fairlight keyboard controller.
http://www.fairlight.com.au/products/post-production/xynergi/"



[Michael Gissing] "The keyboard is basically an ASCII keyboard with transparent keys. Underneath is a screen. So the keyboard can be mapped by having the screen change under the keyboard. The Fairlight keyboard doesn't seem to get dirty. Certainly nothing like a touch screen. After using my keyboard for many years it has required minimal cleaning, even less than my other keyboards."

I know what the Fairlight surface control (keyboard) looks like. My point is that it will get smudges. It will probably be harder to clean a control surface device than a touch screen. When I go to the library the keyboards are filthy. In the end an audio mixing board will get dirty as well if people don't wash their hands regularly. As I have stated if you run multiple monitors you could really customize the GUI to work very efficient with the touch screens. Perhaps even more efficient than using a control surface.

[Michael Gissing] "I have seen little development in keyboards, mice, and touch screens over the past 20 years. My original DAW dSP had a touch screen option over twenty years ago. The Fairlight approach has been one of the few smart dedicated controller developments over that time and it has been available for the past decade. I have often stated how perplexed I have been at the lack of decent ergonomic controllers in the NLE world when speed and ergonomics are key to comfortable fast working. There is still much that can be learnt from twenty years of DAW hardware and software."

The touch screen interface from 20 years age was probably not as advanced as the touch screen capability in the DAWs of today. When you talk about speed and ergonomic that is kind of my point as well. You would have to test a touch screen system with multiple monitors vs a control surface based system. One might work better for FCPX and the other might work better for Premiere Pro CC. I used FCPX and Premiere Pro CC because at this stage FCPX still does not have a GUI with customization that is on par with Premiere Pro CC. FCPX does have much more customization than it once did.

In the end I think it will depend on the user and the software being used. As I have stated we will probably see more touch screens on the market and the price will probably drop as well. Price vs functionality will probably play a role for most users. Wouldn't you agree?


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Michael Gissing
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 15, 2017 at 6:52:59 am

[andy patterson]"I know what the Fairlight surface control (keyboard) looks like. My point is that it will get smudges. It will probably be harder to clean a control surface device than a touch screen. "

As a long term user I am telling you that is not the case so your point is not made with me.

[andy paterson]"we will probably see more touch screens on the market and the price will probably drop as well. Price vs functionality will probably play a role for most users. Wouldn't you agree?"

A whole generation is becoming accustomed to touch screen and they are getting better and cheaper so I would agree. It doesn't alter my long experience with all alternatives and I still find properly designed ergonomic dedicated controllers superior. I have many years experience of switching between DAWs with dedicated controllers and NLEs without. NLEs are much harder on the body and slower to perform tasks. This is not just hardware but software. As few editors cover the range of software that I do I am not surprised they don't appreciate the benefits of dedicated hardware and well written software. Smart things like dials on the Surface are a hybrid with merit. Same for touchbars versus function keys but as always ergonomics are so often overlooked in all touch based applications.


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 15, 2017 at 10:47:18 pm

[Michael Gissing] "[andy patterson]"I know what the Fairlight surface control (keyboard) looks like. My point is that it will get smudges. It will probably be harder to clean a control surface device than a touch screen. "

As a long term user I am telling you that is not the case so your point is not made with me."


My Cellphone never needs cleaning either. See my point? I bet if you took a white cloth to the Fairlight surface control the white cloth would in fact become dirty. That is my point little buckaroo. It is not so filthy you cannot use it. I don't use my audio board that much but when I do clean it the white Q-Tips turn black. All devices will get filthy and smudgy. Why you are only bother about the touch screen getting smudgy is beyond me. By the way it does take longer to clean my control surface, audio board and keyboard than it does to clean a screen.

[Michael Gissing] "[andy paterson]"we will probably see more touch screens on the market and the price will probably drop as well. Price vs functionality will probably play a role for most users. Wouldn't you agree?"

A whole generation is becoming accustomed to touch screen and they are getting better and cheaper so I would agree. It doesn't alter my long experience with all alternatives and I still find properly designed ergonomic dedicated controllers superior. I have many years experience of switching between DAWs with dedicated controllers and NLEs without. NLEs are much harder on the body and slower to perform tasks. This is not just hardware but software. As few editors cover the range of software that I do I am not surprised they don't appreciate the benefits of dedicated hardware and well written software. Smart things like dials on the Surface are a hybrid with merit. Same for touchbars versus function keys but as always ergonomics are so often overlooked in all touch based applications."


That is my point. The Surface Dial combined with a touch screen may add some functionality that a control surface cannot. As others have pointed touch screen monitors work right out of the box. Some of the control surfaces are expensive not to mention the fact that touch screens will get better and better and devices like the Surface Dial will get better and better. As I have stated a lot will depend on the software being used. Cakewalk, Premiere and Photoshop all have a GUI with total customization. Pinnacle Studio and FCPX do not. When using multiple monitors with touch screen capability you can really have a lot of functionality if the GUI offers 100% customization.

I am not saying touch screens will be the best option for everyone or even be the best option for video editing in 2021 . I am saying for some software titles and some users it might be better than using control surfaces. Having said that I highly doubt the Apple engineers are saying the Surface Studio sucks ass but who knows for sure? I do know there are Apple users who want OS X to get touch screen support and they have valid reason for wanting touch screen support.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 16, 2017 at 1:36:17 am

[andy patterson] "Having said that I highly doubt the Apple engineers are saying the Surface Studio sucks ass but who knows for sure? I do know there are Apple users who want OS X to get touch screen support and they have valid reason for wanting touch screen support."

Unfortunately the problem with touch interfaces based on fingers instead of a stylus is that they require a fatter target area. This results in interfaces with larger buttons and less fine detail. Sony's Catalyst software is an example of an interface designed to be touch-friendly. This might change in the future, but a lot of aspects of FCPX3's new UI are not conducive to touch operation.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 16, 2017 at 2:02:11 am

[Oliver Peters] "Unfortunately the problem with touch interfaces based on fingers instead of a stylus is that they require a fatter target area. This results in interfaces with larger buttons and less fine detail. Sony's Catalyst software is an example of an interface designed to be touch-friendly. This might change in the future, but a lot of aspects of FCPX3's new UI are not conducive to touch operation."

That is my point. A lot will depend on the software. There are Mac users who use Illustrator and Photoshop and stated using the MS Surface Studio felt more natural than using a keyboard and mouse. I already stated FCPX might not be the best software for touch screen support as is. I am sure more and more professional software programs will take advantage of touch screen as well as the Surface Dial. The ability to use touch screen with surface controls will allow MS to offer the best of both worlds. I myself welcome the different options. Apple will force you to edit their way.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 16, 2017 at 7:47:28 pm

[Michael Gissing] "And there are times when dedicated control hardware beats touch screen and keyboard/mouse."

Sure. But take something like After Effects -- I wonder what dedicated Ae control hardware would look like.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 16, 2017 at 8:00:11 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I wonder what dedicated Ae control hardware would look like."

It's not dedicated to AE but there's the modular Palette Gear thingy. It looks pretty neat.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 16, 2017 at 11:05:49 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Sure. But take something like After Effects -- I wonder what dedicated Ae control hardware would look like."

Not sure as I am not AE proficient but the thing about designing software around dedicated hardware is that it needs to have the software optimised for the controller. It would change the software. Resolve has dedicated hardware that 99% of users never buy so the software has to be thought through for both.

Purely from an ergonomics view, without regard for speed, I can work much longer without fatigue on Fairlight than I can on Resolve and that is with the Tangent controller that gives me a fair bit of dedicated control. A lot of it is in the UI and the controller reducing eye movements and digging into menus.


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 16, 2017 at 4:55:14 am

[andy patterson] "Apple users may say touch screen is a waste of time but keep in mind they haven't really used it. "

Gosh.

Swap "Apple users" in the abovequote for "the internet"
Then swap "touch screen" for "Touch Bar" -

And you have totally described the end of of 2016 in on-line tech forums.

Of course this time it's Microsoft looking to innovate - so it's ... different, I guess.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 16, 2017 at 10:26:47 am

[Bill Davis] "[andy patterson] "Apple users may say touch screen is a waste of time but keep in mind they haven't really used it. "

Gosh.

Swap "Apple users" in the abovequote for "the internet"
Then swap "touch screen" for "Touch Bar" -

And you have totally described the end of of 2016 in on-line tech forums.

Of course this time it's Microsoft looking to innovate - so it's ... different, I guess."


Bill, remember how awesome the iPad was when they showed a DAW interface and showed that with the iPad you could raise and lower the fader for channel 1 as well as simultaneously muting channel 3 and 4? I admit I thought it was kind of cool to use it like a control surface. Remember how they showed the iPad being used as a sketch pad for artists? I admit I thought it was kind of cool. With MS we don't have a mobile OS and a desktop OS. So if the iPad Pro is awesome just think Bill; the MS Surface is like an iPad Pro on steroids (Windows 10 and i7 CPU). I don't see creative professionals wanting a Mac Book Pro with the touch bar. I do see them wanting the Surface Studio although it is to expensive for most people as of now but the price will drop. If it is awesome to use touch screen to raise and lower faders on the iPad as well draw, sketch and design on the iPad wouldn't it make sense that all that stuff would be even more awesome using OS X (Sierra)?


[Bill Davis] "Of course this time it's Microsoft looking to innovate - so it's ... different, I guess."

Most people see MS's paradigm as a tad bit superior to Apple's paradigm.

MS's Paradigm = MS gives the user the best of both worlds. One OS that does it all!

Apple's paradigm = If you want to draw and sketch using a touch screen use our iOS. If you want a desktop OS to draw and sketch go use the MS Surface Pro. And that my friend is why many Mac users have opted for the Surface Pro : )


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 2:17:16 am

[andy patterson] "Apple's paradigm = If you want to draw and sketch using a touch screen use our iOS. If you want a desktop OS to draw and sketch go use the MS Surface Pro. And that my friend is why many Mac users have opted for the Surface Pro : )"

Isn't the Surface Pro just a tablet with a detachable keyboard section? And isn't it ARM based like the iPad? Or are you saying the shoehorned a desktop CPU into that tablet? That would be cool.

What's the advantage over an iPad Pro and an Apple Pencil? Apple's "mimic a sketchpad and pencil." tools have been out for more than a year and the artists I know who use them love them. Is this different?

Or are you talking about the Surface Pro Studio - the big iMac like honker? That's a touchscreen too right? Does it have the dedicated drawing capabilities like the Surface Pro or iPad pro?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 2:54:34 am

[Bill Davis] "Isn't the Surface Pro just a tablet with a detachable keyboard section? And isn't it ARM based like the iPad? Or are you saying the shoehorned a desktop CPU into that tablet? That would be cool."

The Surface Pro uses a Core i5/i7 and Windows 10. It has done that for years. Even when it ran Windows 8 it could use an i5/i7 CPU. You can run Indesign and Illustrator on the Surface Pro. You can find videos of people doing this 4 years ago.

[Bill Davis] "What's the advantage over an iPad Pro and an Apple Pencil? Apple's "mimic a sketchpad and pencil." tools have been out for more than a year and the artists I know who use them love them. Is this different?"

We Windows users have one OS. We can run all the Adobe programs on the Surface Pro. Try and find a video of someone running Illustrator on an iPad. It is possible Adobe may have recently made an iOS version of Illustrator but they didn't have it a year ago. Having said that you can probably use the Android Tablets as a sketch pad but I doubt they can run the Adobe CC applications.

[Bill Davis] "Or are you talking about the Surface Pro Studio - the big iMac like honker? That's a touchscreen too right? Does it have the dedicated drawing capabilities like the Surface Pro or iPad pro?"

Is it an iMac honker or an iMac bitch slapper? Many Apple users want OS X to get touch screen support. Other Apple users want the surface studio but it is to expensive right now. That will not be the case 14 months from now. The Surface Studio has a much more advanced touch screen than the Surface Pro but both Run Windows 10 and can use Core i5/i7 CPUs. As I have stated the Surface Studio is like an iPad Pro on steroids.

You can find videos of people ditching their iPads for the Surface Pro. Having said that it is good to ask questions. It is the only way you will learn.


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 6:39:41 pm

[andy patterson] "The Surface Pro uses a Core i5/i7 and Windows 10. It has done that for years. Even when it ran Windows 8 it could use an i5/i7 CPU. You can run Indesign and Illustrator on the Surface Pro. You can find videos of people doing this 4 years ago."

Interesting. How does it handle the heat in that form-factor?

I notice you mention only vector based software. Does it run higher requirement pixel based manipulations like Premiere Pro that has to push a ton more pixels around ?

Thanks for the info.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 6:46:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "Does it run higher requirement pixel based manipulations like Premiere Pro that has to push a ton more pixels around ? "

Looks like it does.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=premiere+pro+surface+pro&page=...

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 6:56:12 pm

My daily laptop is a Surface Pro 3.

[Bill Davis] "Interesting. How does it handle the heat in that form-factor? "

Some heat dissipates passively through the case, but there are small fans that kick in to push out hot air when necessary.


[Bill Davis] "I notice you mention only vector based software. Does it run higher requirement pixel based manipulations like Premiere Pro that has to push a ton more pixels around ? "

Sure. The Surface Pro is a real laptop, but with a different form factor. It has a screen you can touch, a keyboard you can tear off, and an OS designed to handle both. I've used Ae, Pr and even a little C4D and Nuke on my Surface Pro. I wouldn't pick a laptop for that kind of work as my first choice, but it works fine.

I personally think it's a little big and heavy for frequent tablet use -- I like the iPad form factor better for that -- but Cortana is pretty cool and the flexibility of going back and forth between tablet and desktop personalities right on the same device is impressive.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 15, 2017 at 3:54:26 am

[Charlie Austin] "I have no desire to wave my hands around on a touchscreen day after day."

Maybe you just need to re-conceptualize it as "edit Tai Chi?"

Center yourself - time to edit.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 11, 2017 at 12:45:45 am

As Creative Professionals it is always fun to speculate about the future of Computers and how we will interact with them. Sometimes the speculations become a reality but more often than not the future is unpredictable.







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Scott Witthaus
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 11:00:29 am

[andy patterson] "Sometimes the speculations become a reality but more often than not the future is unpredictable. "

I wanted to watch this video in it's entirety, but the VO kept causing me to fall asleep. Don't you all think we will see an "iMac" Pro" with a hinge-able base to let it lie flat or slightly angled and touch capabilities in the future? Seems like a logical next step to match the surface. As an editor and not an artist or designer, I am trying to figure out what a Surface-like device would give me over my iMac or Mac Book Pro right now?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 1:48:03 pm

[Scott Witthaus] " Don't you all think we will see an "iMac" Pro" with a hinge-able base to let it lie flat or slightly angled and touch capabilities in the future? Seems like a logical next step to match the surface."

Yea, I kind of already said that by stating the Apple engineers probably have a Surface Studio in their office and are trying to replicate it. Having said that Apple used to claim people don't want touch screen on their desktop PC.

[Scott Witthaus] "As an editor and not an artist or designer, I am trying to figure out what a Surface-like device would give me over my iMac or Mac Book Pro right now?"

It may or may not give you anything as an editor. I ask the same thing when people make the comment that you can raise and lower the volume in FCPX with the touch bar and also scrub the timeline with the touch bar. I think to myself you can do those simultaneously with a touch screen. It is unfortunate that you are limiting yourself to just editing. Why not try to create logos using Illustrator or edit the photos that you have to use in your video production with Photoshop? Maybe on day you will start to use Cubase or Cakewalk for audio mixing. In that case the touch screen will allow you to manipulate the virtual audio board as easy as using a control surface. In fact some Cakewalk users have stated they like using touch screen over the control surface but everyone will have their own preference. Others have stated touch screens work good for certain tasks but not everything. I agree.

[Scott Witthaus] " wanted to watch this video in it's entirety, but the VO kept causing me to fall asleep."

It is unfortunate that you fell asleep because some of your questions were addressed in the video.


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 7:23:46 pm

[andy patterson] "It is unfortunate that you are limiting yourself to just editing. Why not try to create logos using Illustrator or edit the photos that you have to use in your video production with Photoshop? Maybe on day you will start to use Cubase or Cakewalk for audio mixing. In that case the touch screen will allow you to manipulate the virtual audio board as easy as using a control surface. In fact some Cakewalk users have stated they like using touch screen over the control surface but everyone will have their own preference. Others have stated touch screens work good for certain tasks but not everything. I agree. "

That answers it for me.

Horses for courses.

I don't currently value that type of "learn 6 programs and switch between them daily" approach if I can possibly avoid it.

I understand the concept. Each program custom developed to do ONE task as well as possible - providing the user ultimate control with deep access to everything. The thing is, I seldom have time to touch six different things just to get the overall task done.

Part of the beauty if X (for me at least) is that I can stay inside it and get essentially everything I need to deliver my work done in one cohesive place.

With the pace of business today - bouncing between multiple tools just isn't on my radar if I can have one that gets the job done properly in a single environment.

If I was in my teens, I'd probably still have the vision I used to... that learning 6 deep programs - deeply - was a valuable path. Today, not so much. I've bought, learned and ultimately DROPPED more software packages over the decades than I currently use. And now I value the ones that let me get the most work done with the least friction in both learning and execution possible.

Sure I'll take a flyer on a dedicated App if it's relatively inexpensive or if it specializes in a particular function I need (Like Slice/Track X, etc) but I've come to value keeping things "tight" in terms of my desire to expand my program expertise mindshare. Theres just too many things to learn out there - and nowhere near the time available to learn them all.

To each their own.

; )

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 19, 2017 at 8:13:39 pm

[Bill Davis] "I don't currently value that type of "learn 6 programs and switch between them daily" approach if I can possibly avoid it."

While I agree with your overall concept of trying to do as much as possible within your core NLE, what tools do you have in X that make it possible for you to avoid using something like Photoshop? Personally I'm not great with it and I avoid it when I can, but I doubt a week goes by that I don't need to use Photoshop for something work related. The same goes for AE/Motion - I do most of my effects in PPro but sometimes I'm working on a piece that cries out for something heavier - do you never use Motion? On the audio side I use Audition constantly but in X I know that you can use Izotope RX5 as a plug-in and do the same kind of work - but even though it acts as a plug-in, in reality it's a totally separate audio gui. Just curious as to how you can do everything within X.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 1:01:21 am

[Herb Sevush] "Just curious as to how you can do everything within X."

I guess FCPX is a lot more powerful than I realized.


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 5:08:05 pm

Fair questions, Herb.

The primary tool I use that makes me less dependent on Photoshop is called "a designer" (teasing) - seriously, I seldom do that type of work myself. I do constantly get graphic designs form artists (typically west coast folk) and use the type and graphics tools in X to re-create their designs directly in the program so I have editorial control for changes. Using X's built in keening, leding, and similar tools to match pro designs to my video raster is something I do reasonably often. It's consistent with my preference not to have to leave the program as my deadlines approach.

Similar to my use of Motion. I mostly commission motion graphics, but I am dabbling more and more. Motions basic linkage in publishing generators and effects directly into my storylines with customizable parameters accessible in the editorial space is a good approach for what I need.

As to audio, for the way I work, X is heaven. Remember I started as a radio guy and narrator by trade. Audio production was my first career. The Logic stuff built into X is awesome. So is the direct VO tool. I realize that many other editors can't control their raw materials in the same fashion I can, and if I was in that place with "iffy" sound arriving daily, I'd probably use the external tools you mention. But that's not my reality.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 5:40:50 pm

[Bill Davis] "The primary tool I use that makes me less dependent on Photoshop is called "a designer" (teasing) - seriously, I seldom do that type of work myself. I do constantly get graphic designs form artists (typically west coast folk) and use the type and graphics tools in X to re-create their designs directly in the program so I have editorial control for changes. Using X's built in keening, leding, and similar tools to match pro designs to my video raster is something I do reasonably often. It's consistent with my preference not to have to leave the program as my deadlines approach."

I wasn't focusing on Photoshop as a CG program as much as in it's ability to alter static images in ways that I can't within an NLE. Say I have a locked off shot of someone cooking behind a counter and there's a product on the side that I want to get rid of. If there's no action in that part of the shot the simplest thing is to create a still image, take it to photoshop, use a clone tool to erase the errant product and fill in the frame around it, then bring it back into my timeline and crop out that area of the shot - I never seen those types of cloning or drawing tools within any NLE I've ever worked with. You could do product removal with Mocha, or something similar, but that's still leaving your base NLE.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 6:04:51 pm

[Herb Sevush] "- I never seen those types of cloning or drawing tools within any NLE I've ever worked with. You could do product removal with Mocha, or something similar, but that's still leaving your base NLE."

Have you tried creating a custom mask with the pen tool? For example, I've had to erase license plates before (we didn't blur because we didn't liked how it looked) from handheld shots and I basically duped the video clip onto V2, used the pen tool to crop out just a portion of the car's bumper, and then used that to cover the car's license plate. After feathering the edges it look fine (thankfully the car's bumper and a pretty plain, uniform look overall).

Each situation is different, but there might be more power in your NLE to cover these types of situations than you think.


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:36:38 pm

Andrew has this right.

It's a variation on my old ... "when the tool you have is a hammer - your problems start to look like nails" thing.

Perfectly reasonable to reach for the tool you know how to best use whatever it is.

For me I'm still trying to ween completely away from the fishhook subscription thing, so I'm trying to move to lighter and less costly tools. Affinity and Pixelmator among them. (If only I could find more time to play with new stuff. Oh well.)

That said, I've maybe used Photoshop 3 times in the past year. I tend to use get multilayer files from the designer as PDFs and my first stop is to use Automator to deconstruct the packages and just bring the layers into X for re-assembly. I actually tend to use Graphics Converter more for resizing and repair and cleanup these days than Photoshop.

In the end, we all have our own mix of what's comfortable.

Viva difference!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 6:23:55 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I wasn't focusing on Photoshop as a CG program as much as in it's ability to alter static images in ways that I can't within an NLE."

I find PS indispensable. I use it with my editing on a near-daily basis. However, without it, I'd use Affinity or Pixelmator, because one of these tools is essential. And if tons of photos are involved, so are Lightroom or Aperture (not Photos).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:19:48 pm

Oh heck, I do that stuff all the time.
I just clone the shot, crop it to a neutral area or similar part of the existing frame and and slide that over the unwanted content as a quick mask.

Because everything in X is just a reference to the core footage, that type of layering is no big deal.

I find no need to go out to a program built to work with a higher resolution raster - when all I need to do is repair the one I'm working with. I find it easier to clone "like onto like."

Quick, simple and effective.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:24:45 pm

[Bill Davis] "Because everything in X is just a reference to the core footage, that type of layering is no big deal. "

Are there any NLEs that aren't non-destructive?


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Steve Connor
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:27:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "Because everything in X is just a reference to the core footage, that type of layering is no big deal. "

As it is in every other NLE ☺

I also do this in FCPX as well but sometimes it's not enough and It's the power of clone and replacement in PS that Herb is talking about which far surpasses any NLE


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Herb Sevush
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 7:39:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "I just clone the shot, crop it to a neutral area or similar part of the existing frame and and slide that over the unwanted content as a quick mask."

Well yes, that's the way to do it for the easy fixes, but often I get something for which there is no adequate pre-existing video to use. An offending bottle is on a crowded counter-top next to a window looking out on a street - there is no way to match the angle of the backgrounds and the content of the window with anything else in your shot - your have to "create" the background, there is nothing to steal. Or you need to create a new "faux" label to replace a trademarked one, faux logo and all. Photoshop, or any of it's equivalents, will run rings around anything you can do strictly within any NLE. I'd rather stay within a given Ap, but a hammer is not the answer for all problems, sometimes you need a drill.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 8:09:00 pm

Yeah, well X has drills too.

So what?

I can do that bottle and label probably just as easily a Graphics Converter as Photoshop and toss it in Track X to integrate it into the scene directly in X too.

This is stupid.

First you accuse me of "selective quoting" when I did no such thing, and now you want to imply what I somehow can't do in X things I do perfectly well all the time.

I've got work to do.

I posted this not to piss you off, Herb, but because I felt it was RELEVENT to this group.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother anymore.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 8:24:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "I can do that bottle and label probably just as easily a Graphics Converter as Photoshop and toss it in Track X to integrate it into the scene directly in X too."

I'm sure you can and I'm sure you do -- that's my point. You leave your base NLE to use specific tools (it doesn't matter who makes them) that are beyond any NLE's capability.

This sub thread started with your claim --

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/92982

[Bill Davis] "
Part of the beauty if X (for me at least) is that I can stay inside it and get essentially everything I need to deliver my work done in one cohesive place."


Which I found surprising. Apparently you do what everyone does - you use the tools you need where ever you find them.

As for --

[Bill Davis] "First you accuse me of "selective quoting" when I did no such thing"

I was not the one who made you look bad, Mads was, when he gave you half the quote he gave to another interviewer. I apologize for my misreading of the situation.

And finally --

[Bill Davis] "Sometimes I wonder why I even bother anymore."

The jury is out on that one, although I would miss you if you weren't here to badger.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 21, 2017 at 2:38:37 am

[Herb Sevush] "I was not the one who made you look bad, Mads was, when he gave you half the quote he gave to another interviewer. I apologize for my misreading of the situation."

Uh, NOPE.

Mads did NOTHING but post his delight in the new performance of X.

I quoted him accurately.

That you jumped to an erroneous conclusion based on something he revised and posted elsewhere isn't on him or on me.

Period.

That said, I can see why you mistook what he wrote elsewhere that included his original text sent to me essentially verbatim as the thing I was quoting. Perhaps a fine lesson in the dangers of today's READY-FIRE-AIM discourse?

Apology accepted.

Let's move on.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 8:24:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "Sometimes I wonder why I even bother anymore."

It's "hitting on the head lessons" in here ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 20, 2017 at 12:56:06 am

[Bill Davis] "I don't currently value that type of "learn 6 programs and switch between them daily" approach if I can possibly avoid it.

I understand the concept. Each program custom developed to do ONE task as well as possible - providing the user ultimate control with deep access to everything. The thing is, I seldom have time to touch six different things just to get the overall task done."


Premiere Pro CC can probably do just as much as FCPX. Having said that I can chop down an oak tree with a steak knife but an axe would be much better. A chainsaw might be even better than an axe. Wouldn't you agree?

[Bill Davis] "Part of the beauty if X (for me at least) is that I can stay inside it and get essentially everything I need to deliver my work done in one cohesive place."

That is awesome that FCPX is so advanced. I did not know FCXP supported PDF export, RGB to CMYK conversion as well as support for bleed and slug area. If FCPX had been out when Avatar was being created the people working on the film would not have had to use Photoshop and Illustrator to design the marketing materials for Avatar. I did not now FCPX could do all that.

[Bill Davis] "With the pace of business today - bouncing between multiple tools just isn't on my radar if I can have one that gets the job done properly in a single environment."

I agree 100%. If your client needs you to design a DVD cover layout and you can do it in FCPX I say go for it. I wouldn't use Photoshop myself if FCPX can be used for printing production. I had not idea of the power of FCPX. Maybe Adobe will merge Photoshop and Premiere Pro to compete against FCPX.

[Bill Davis] "If I was in my teens, I'd probably still have the vision I used to... that learning 6 deep programs - deeply - was a valuable path. Today, not so much. I've bought, learned and ultimately DROPPED more software packages over the decades than I currently use. And now I value the ones that let me get the most work done with the least friction in both learning and execution possible."

I agree. I have stopped using many software titles that I used to use 10 years ago. I also bought into Adobe's Creative Suite (CS was better than CC) because I started having clients want me to create websites and brochures for them. It is OK to just do video editing but I have done a lot more than that for my clients. Keep in mind many video post production houses and advertising agencies offer webdesign, print production as well as video production. That was not the case 30 years ago.

[Bill Davis] "Sure I'll take a flyer on a dedicated App if it's relatively inexpensive or if it specializes in a particular function I need (Like Slice/Track X, etc) but I've come to value keeping things "tight" in terms of my desire to expand my program expertise mindshare. Theres just too many things to learn out there - and nowhere near the time available to learn them all."

Some of us have needs beyond just audio and video and some of those needs might be met with a touch screen better than keyboard and mouse. In the end it will depend on the user and the software programs being used. The touch bar and touch screen paradigm may or may not be useful for everyone.


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 21, 2017 at 4:29:57 am

[andy patterson] "Premiere Pro CC can probably do just as much as FCPX. "

Wait. "Probably???"

From your posts explaining why X doesn't cut the mustard, my presumption was that you must have extensive experience with its capabilities.

You come across very "sure" of your positions and with a god bit of insiders knowledge.

"A personal choice that Apple refuses to offer it's users."

"I am sure the Apple engineers have a Surface Studio in their office and are blown away with how fluid the interaction can be."

"As of now FCPX does not have the customization that Premiere Pro offers."

And

"Having said that I highly doubt the Apple engineers are saying the Surface Studio sucks ass but who knows for sure?"

(By the way, extra congrats on the last one - perfect modern era "campaign speak!")

This one is my very favorite:

"You can find videos of people ditching their iPads for the Surface Pro."

I'm absolutely sure you could show me those videos, just like I could show you just as many skewed to make my points. That's the era we live in. I can easily find videos about bigfoot, gourmet recipes based entirely on Velveeta, and faith-based rap groups.

Videos are easy to source on literally anything from any point of view.

What I'm more interested in is credibility.

After the above quoted stuff, I'm interested in yours.

Care to enlighten me on any credentials you hold that makes your comments about X operations worthy of weight?

This isn't a hostile challenge so please don't read it that way.

I'm honestly interested in what informs your perspective.

That very first quote above was kinda out of character compared to the rest.

Just trying to understand who I'm sparing with here.

If you want my credentials, they are all over my years of posts here. I'm kind of an open book in that regard.

🙂

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 21, 2017 at 7:29:48 am

[Bill Davis] ""Premiere Pro CC can probably do just as much as FCPX. "

Wait. "Probably???"

From your posts explaining why X doesn't cut the mustard, my presumption was that you must have extensive experience with its capabilities."


I never stated in the response you quoted above that FCPX couldn't cut the mustard. In fact you stated FCPX can do everything. I stated don't use Photoshop if FCPX if it can do graphic design. We find out later that FCPX cannot do graphic design. So no! You cannot just use one program (FCPX) to do everything as you stated earlier. Your bad Bill not mine : )

[Bill Davis] "You come across very "sure" of your positions and with a god bit of insiders knowledge.

"A personal choice that Apple refuses to offer it's users.""


Insider knowledge? Below is what I actually wrote as opposed to you trying to miss quote me out of context.

Some are starting to preferring touch screens over an actual control surface. In the end it is nothing more than personal choice. A personal choice that Apple refuses to offer it's users.

No insider knowledge Bill. Apple doesn't offer touch screen dude. So no. You don't have that choice no matter how hard you want to miss quote me : )

[Bill Davis] ""As of now FCPX does not have the customization that Premiere Pro offers.""

This is true. Let me see you put the effects pallet of FCPX on a separate monitor Bill. I would like to add you are taking quotes from several different responses and different posts of mine and trying to miss represent them but I caught you little buckaroo. It took me a while to find them because you have them out of context.

[Bill Davis] "Videos are easy to source on literally anything from any point of view.

What I'm more interested in is credibility.

After the above quoted stuff, I'm interested in yours.

Care to enlighten me on any credentials you hold that makes your comments about X operations worthy of weight?

This isn't a hostile challenge so please don't read it that way.

I'm honestly interested in what informs your perspective.

That very first quote above was kinda out of character compared to the rest.

Just trying to understand who I'm sparing with here.

If you want my credentials, they are all over my years of posts here. I'm kind of an open book in that regard."


I don't care about your credentials Bill. I would still think you are a tad bit loopy (for Apple) even if you worked at Industrial Light and Magic little buckaroo : )

Having said that I used to work for the City Of Detroit's Media Center. We did many collaborations with the Cable Commission. All of it aired over local cable although a few things we broadcast over local stations. We had a full fledged studio and a suitcase studio. We had as much equipment as most of the network affiliates. We may have had more equipment than a network affiliate in a small market. What did I do? I ran and operated cameras, switcher, CCU, CG audio boards and even edited on our $80,000.00 Avid Media Composer. We bought it back in 1998. It had a Targa 2000 for the capture card and a Pinnacle Genie Board for the real-time effects. Since it was Mac based we had to also get a PCI extension chassis. Have you ever worked on the older Avids? It may seem like a lot of money for local cable but when you consider the price of CCU, Switcher, Camplex system, clear com system, monitors etc it really wasn't all that expensive.

As of now I do more freelance web design and graphic design work than video production. Don't get me wrong I only do about six or seven projects a year in total but I do need to run the full multi-media spectrum. Having said that I don't think you would have cared about my background had I loved cherished and worshiped FCPX as you do. I also think others as well as myself kind of called you out a bit on your responses. Having said that my background is not going to change the fact the FCPX cannot do everything as you had claimed nor will it change the fact the OS X doesn't support touch screen. Even miss quoting me will not change those simple facts Bill. I must wonder why you are really concerned about my background? I actually worked in radio as well. Having said that I never did get a third class operators permit from the FCC. Did you?

Did I answer your questions to the utmost satisfaction little buckaroo? Having said that would you like to know what size condoms I wear or what brand of cigarette I smoke : )


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Bill Davis
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 23, 2017 at 10:27:42 pm

[andy patterson] "Having said that I never did get a third class operators permit from the FCC. Did you?
"


Actually. Yes.

; )

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 23, 2017 at 11:48:12 pm

[Bill Davis] "
Actually. Yes."


Cool : )


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Herb Sevush
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 23, 2017 at 11:00:17 pm

[andy patterson] "Did I answer your questions to the utmost satisfaction little buckaroo"

Andy,

A word of advice since you haven't been posting on this forum for a long time and maybe you've mistaken this place for someplace else -- it gets very confrontational here, and quite heated from time to time -- but I would suggest you leave off the "little buckaroo" business, or any other name calling for that matter.

Thank you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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andy patterson
Re: Something else to debate!
on Jan 24, 2017 at 12:04:32 am

[Herb Sevush] "A word of advice since you haven't been posting on this forum for a long time and maybe you've mistaken this place for someplace else -- it gets very confrontational here, and quite heated from time to time -- but I would suggest you leave off the "little buckaroo" business, or any other name calling for that matter."

I call all my friends and even my girlfriend little buckaroo. They call me big buckaroo. I don't see it as mean spirited nor do any of the people I hangout with. Having said that if you think others on this forum think it might be mean I will stop using the word buckaroo.

I actually got the name from Buckaroo Bonzia. I did not see the movie I just like to use the name buckaroo.

Sorry if it was taken offensively.


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