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At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar

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Steve Connor
At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 17, 2016 at 4:21:33 pm

https://9to5mac.com/2016/12/16/davinci-resolve-studio-12-5-4-touch-bar-macb...


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Tim Wilson
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 17, 2016 at 9:59:19 pm

I'm going to take the liberty of embedding the video here. VERY cool stuff!



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Bill Davis
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 18, 2016 at 2:22:12 am

God, I'm SO confused.

The internet told me it was a stupid gimmick - but now suddenly it's not?

It can't be possible, can it, that after some actual time for development - this will ACTUALLY be useful?

What if Apple is taking their time to THINK ABOUT how to best program for it - beyond even the obvious stuff like Resolve (basically a program who's DNA is color grading - with a nice traditional track based NLE layered on top) using it for --- color grading and some other perfectly obvious stuff?

It couldn't be that Apple is taking their time conceptualizing how their own new track bar system might work within the entire X magnetic timeline concept can they?

Who takes time to do stuff like that these days? To basically think it through and try to "get it right" rather than just get it out in the market ASAP.

Crazy, I say.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 18, 2016 at 4:28:13 am

Two thoughts.

First thought, people should download the free version of Resolve from Blackmagic's site, not the version from the App Store (the version from the App Store is updated less frequently due to how Apple manages the app store).

Second, just based on the video, I think I'd lose my mind trying to grade something using the TouchBar the way the person in the video is. It looks glacially slow and frustrating. Scroll to find right tool, touch to open tool, adjust slider, back out of tool, scroll to next tool, touch to open tool, adjust slider to back out of tool, scroll to find next tool, touch to open tool, adjust slider, etc., etc., etc.,. It's the desktop equivalent to only being able to have one adjustable parameter open in the GUI at a time. Your typical color corrector will give you at least six (color wheels and brightness sliders for Highs, Mids, and Lows) and Resolve's GUI gives you many, many more that are just a click (or keyboard short cut) away.

Resolve certainly packs a lot of functions into the TouchBar but is that really the best use of the TouchBar?

In my limited time playing with the touch bar at the Apple store and watching videos I think if you make the user scroll through a bunch of tools that are 'off screen' in order for the user to find the tool they need you are doing it wrong. I think the real strength of the TouchBar is in user customization. In any App I should be allowed to put whatever I want into the TouchBar.

For example, for quick n' dirty grades I've been using the Basic Correction panel in PPro's Lumetri Color a lot recently so mapping Temp, Tint, Exposure, Contrast and Saturation to the TouchBar would be cool because that's 90% of what I use on these fast grades. W/o the flexibility to customize like you can your keyboard I think the TouchBar will always fall short of its potential.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 18, 2016 at 1:48:51 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Second, just based on the video, I think I'd lose my mind trying to grade something using the TouchBar the way the person in the video is. It looks glacially slow and frustrating. "

Yeah. It looks really cool and sleek but there's no way I'd use it in actual work. If it would be customizable then I'd probably get some speed/convenience if I mapped the controls that are kinda annoying to use by mouse/aren't available on a control surface like those small dials for temp/tint/sat/contrast/midtone detail.


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Bret Williams
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 21, 2016 at 1:24:28 pm

I actually found the touch bar very useful in making our Xmas card photo in Afinnuty Photo. I was using the eraser tool. While using the eraser, without taking my bright hand off the track pad I was able to change the eraser softness, opacity, size etc. Even WHILE erasing.

THAT is the best example Ive found of its usefulness. As a simultaneous additional tool. Really great implementation.

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCP X Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Bill Davis
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 22, 2016 at 6:29:15 pm

[Bret Williams] "I actually found the touch bar very useful in making our Xmas card photo in Afinnuty Photo. I was using the eraser tool. While using the eraser, without taking my bright hand off the track pad I was able to change the eraser softness, opacity, size etc. Even WHILE erasing.

THAT is the best example Ive found of its usefulness. As a simultaneous additional tool. Really great implementation."


People are now starting to learn the brand new tool!
Exciting times.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 22, 2016 at 7:46:09 pm

[Bret Williams] "I actually found the touch bar very useful in making our Xmas card photo in Afinnuty Photo. I was using the eraser tool. While using the eraser, without taking my bright hand off the track pad I was able to change the eraser softness, opacity, size etc. Even WHILE erasing. THAT is the best example Ive found of its usefulness. As a simultaneous additional tool. Really great implementation."

There's a similar use case as you see with the Surface Dial in conjunction with the pen. Modifying a drawing tool, mid-stroke. It's pretty exciting, because now we have input devices going beyond analog simulations, taking advantage of their own strengths.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bret Williams
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 22, 2016 at 8:01:52 pm

You can probanly do the same thing with keyboard shortcuts I just don't go that deep into shortcuts. So this is a good use case where they've enhanced function with a visible function you wouldn't think of or wouldn't usually learn. The team at FCP X wasn't quite as inspired, placing the mist well know well used keyboard shortcuts and functions in the touch bar. In fact they actually make you take extra steps vs a mouse in many cases.

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCP X Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 23, 2016 at 8:06:51 pm

[Bret Williams] "they've enhanced function with a visible function you wouldn't think of or wouldn't usually learn"

This raises a cool issue (ok maybe not cool but at least nerdy): knowledge, acquisition v learning. It's easy enough to google for detailed explanations, but the touchbar solves a fancy problem because it hides all the stuff you don't need. It constrains the number of cases, whereas a keyboard has all the shortcuts all the time and the combinations are crazy complicated and that makes them really hard to get into your head and hands. As a species we do really well with inductive knowledge acquisition when there are constraints on the number of cases we generalize from. Long story short: holy crap it's hard to acquire keyboard shortcuts, and so instead we have to learn them -- usually by looking it up in a technical manual and or website -- or by asking the creativecow.

For me, the touchbar as input device is a revolution (in that Thomas Kuhn way). I hope it catches on.


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Bret Williams
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 23, 2016 at 8:16:03 pm

You mean it hides stuff you can't use at any given point? Yep. For that it's good. Just like the inspector. Wouldn't it be great if we could just touch the inspector?

The touch bar may indeed be somewhat useful in certain cases, but I'd rather have a touch screen. It's kinda hard to not believe they came up with this stop gap measure to put off cannibalizing iPad Pro sales for another year. By the same means I think they've put off making iOS a more professional operating system to put off cannibalizing the laptop line.

Or am I stating the obvious?

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCP X Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Bill Davis
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 24, 2016 at 8:26:12 pm

Oh god - I can't even begin to conceive the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would occur if Apple ever decided that touchscreen computing was the future and stopped putting keyboards on stuff.

The internet would EXPLODE at apocolyptic proportions!

Screams of "AGAIN Apple shows it LOATHS professionals" would ring the planet as pundits weep in disgust and children wake up Christmas AM only to wail in despair at the keyboardless future forced upon them.

There would be roving bands of Rogue touch typists armed with flaming torches and barbed flails converging on Cupertino within minutes of the announcement.

Course if it's Microsoft with a new Surface -

then it would be just "innovation" cuz...

well - largely cuz they're not Apple.

Merry Christmas.

; )

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 25, 2016 at 9:53:37 am

[Bill Davis] "Oh god - I can't even begin to conceive the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would occur if Apple ever decided that touchscreen computing was the future and stopped putting keyboards on stuff. "

Would it be possible for you to address and write about the subject at hand instead of strawmanning each post you write?

-Resolve uses the touch bar
Argument: It's cool but it looks like it'll be really slow, but it'll be better with some changes.
Bill: How about the piano? What about FCPX? WHAT IF EVERYTHING WAS TOUCH SCREENS!


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Bill Davis
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 27, 2016 at 7:30:28 pm

[Tero Ahlfors] "Would it be possible for you to address and write about the subject at hand instead of strawmanning each post you write?
"


If you think I'm "strawmannirg" - feel free to make your counter-case right here in the thread in response - but I don't get it. I felt qualified to weigh in on the thread exclusively because I've long pointed out a trend I've seen in discussions of FCP X and it's associated tools.

I now think of it as the "Apple New Announcement Ready-Fire-Aim Syndrome."

No matter WHAT they announce. Get up early so you can hear about why it's CRAP before anyone else!

I think it's useful to understand that's a part of what happens no matter WHAT Apple announces - and if you don't understand that - it can put an unnecessary barrier between yourself and tools that "might" help your editing.

I was lucky enough to have had near immediate access to the Touch Bar - on a optimized machine - and running software FCP X that I know extremely well. So I had a bit of useful personal experience to use in forming my early opinions about it. Plus that's surely also colored by the fact that I truly enjoy editing in X - and this device has features to specifically enhance that - so I have a crystal clear bias. One that everybody here knows well and I presume takes into account.

However, I don't OWN one the the new Touch Bar laptops, so I stopped writing opinions about it - not because I don't have the opinions - but because I feel the people who USE the tools should be the ones telling other people how they work in the real world.

Sorry that my silly little post has annoyed you so. But pointing out how people tend to look for reasons to hate anything Apple creates (The Touch Bar of the thread topic being the latest and greatest example) - particularly when they haven't yet really tried the thing they're talking down - felt germane because it's a recurring theme I've noticed about Apple announcements of the past decade.

That's all.

Happy New Year.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 28, 2016 at 1:25:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "But pointing out how people tend to look for reasons to hate anything Apple creates (The Touch Bar of the thread topic being the latest and greatest example) - particularly when they haven't yet really tried the thing they're talking down - felt germane because it's a recurring theme I've noticed about Apple announcements of the past decade.
"


I have a feeling you didn't read Andrew's or my posts or we have a different definition of "hate". Or you haven't used Resolve at all/enough to know about the issues we expressed.


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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 27, 2016 at 7:14:59 pm

I understand your point, lol. Touching the inspector is not as great as it seems, however. I'm saying this having used the Surface Book for a while now (granted there isn't quite the same interface in Win10).

One big silly problem is that the touch screen on a lap top does not have a kickstand, so when you tap the screen the whole thing tilts and jiggles. More often than not, by a wide margin, the taps just don't register, and often when they do, it jumps into "right click mode." Urban Armor does a pretty good job with their Surface Pro cases and include a very strong, very stable kickstand. They need to do this with the Surface Book cases.

An additional problem is more ergonomic: my hands are here on the keyboard and here next to the mouse (actually for me, Wacom), but when I want to tap, my arm is no longer supported by stuff and I end up holding my arm in the air, a permanent isometric exercise. There is no way to edit in that position.

Also I bought the Surface Book with the beefed-up GPU (NVIDIA gadget) hoping to improve rendering and such, but it doesn't. It seems to me, and I leave a wide margin for error here, that the NVIDIA GPU in Surface Book enhances the touch screen capability, and does not add to rendering. I'd be very interested in actual specs here, and I can't seem to find them. So this is a round about way of saying (and maybe Bill's lurking), if Apple puts in a touchscreen then I sure hope they don't decrease rendering ability, 'cause that'd be an uproar for sure.

Another problem is that the "stuff" we tap is pretty tiny, and I'm thinking of the twirls in After Effects for example. Sometimes it registers the tap as "selected layer" when I wanted the twirly, among other problems, and this is the crux of the (potential) revolution in my opinion: the computer can "predict" what input is available based on what I have just done. For example, if I've just opened an After Effects project, I have to go through 4 or 5 steps before I can use the commands for adjusting a camera, yet they are in two places before I can even use them. Why is the interface dipslaying input options that are not available -- taking up a reasonable amount of screen space, and so here we are back at square one. The tap function is basically a Cartesian Coordinate system, and we tap/click the defined section ON THE SCREEN and everything we could possibly do is all right there all the time ON THE SCREEN.

Whereas, it should be like this: we open our lap tops and the keyboard is totally replaced with an iPad-style touchscreen. If you want to type something, then turn on the keyboard interface device. If you are comfortable doing your job on a keyboard, then the keyboard is still there, but if we want to use a "Super Touchbar" then the whole damn thing could be Contextual; the stuff that's irrelevant goes away until it's relevant. In other words, you could line up all your inspectors on the hypothetical iPad-doo-dad I called the Super Touchbar AWAY FROM THE SCREEN.

I personally would like the market to move like that, but I don't think it will because folks on balance really do not like change.

Here's an analogy because this forum loves analogies ☺ My uncle is a Mercedes Benz mechanic (retired) and his tool box only contains tools that are in metric.


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Bill Davis
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 19, 2016 at 6:04:45 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Dec 19, 2016 at 6:11:42 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Second, just based on the video, I think I'd lose my mind trying to grade something using the TouchBar the way the person in the video is."

Well you should CERTAINLY make up your mind based on watching somebody in an internet video whose had it for a few days. That makes perfect sense.

It's a brand new tool. I suppose when the Piano was a brand new tool, all the experience players hated it too.

Wait, oops. There actually were NO experience players when it was a brand new tool. That's kinda the point of it being brand new.

Nobody quite knows how it might be used - until they explore how to use it.

I watched a YouTube video the other night of Booker T Jones on the Tiny Desk Concerts series play his classic Green Onions. Enjoy:





His Hammond B3 work is still completely AWESOME. And caused me to think about the organ and synth players who while their right hand was playing stuff, their LEFT hand could be constantly playing with the pitch wheel to bend them. Imagine that - while your right hand is doing one thing - your left hand can be SIMULTANEOUSLY making adjustments to whatever you're keying in?

What an ABSOLUTELY CRAZY idea.

Whoops, I forget - this is the internet. So disliking something you've never touched and few people have ANY experience with - particularly as soon as it's released - is how things are supposed to work.

Wouldn't want to reserve any judgement until we see what people can do with the new thing, would we?

; )

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 19, 2016 at 6:53:41 am

[Bill Davis] "Whoops, I forget - this is the internet. So disliking something you've never touched and few people have ANY experience with - particularly as soon as it's released - is how things are supposed to work."

I'm not against the touchbar but in the configuration we saw in the video we should be allowed to draw our conclusion based on that compared to other hardware/software features. If I have dedicated knobs for saturation, contrast and hue they are quicker to use with a panel or a mouse than to go in a menu, change the value, go back, choose the other item, change the value etc.


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Dominic Deacon
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 19, 2016 at 7:12:52 am

Why do you have to have tried something to know it would be no use to you? Everyone knows their own workflows no? It's just a touch screen. We already use those to interact with computers so it's hard to imagine there's massive surprises in store. That video was a good example. High on the cool factor but did it show anything there that couldn't be achieved more quickly and easily with a keyboard by someone who knows what they're doing?

These days I'm more of a photoshop guy than an editor and I can't ever see myself using one of these touch bars because to use it I would have to take my eyes off the screen. I use a gamepad programmed with macros for every tool I use and it's an incredibly fast way to work because my eyes never leave the screen. I know where everything is by feel. There's no feel with a touchbar and so it would be no use for me.

OTOH I haven't used Microsofts Surface Studio yet- and the odds are I never will- but that dial looks incredibly useful. I have no idea how it's being implemented but I can see a million uses for that. If you could, for example, dial in brush pressure with it while you're drawing I could see it making the mouse as useful as a stylus. Again I haven't used it so maybe it's junk but I can say it looks to have utility that's unique to it.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 19, 2016 at 7:17:22 am
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Dec 19, 2016 at 7:18:38 am

If you reread my ENTIRE post Bill you'll see how I think the TouchBar can be useful even though the example in the video is horribly slow compared to using a keyboard and mouse/trackpad/wacom tablet, etc.,.

Funny you make a piano analogy because when trying to describe to people the advantages of using color panels when grading I'll say it's like the difference between playing a piano with all ten fingers vs one finger. To follow your example, Mr. Jones is using all 10 fingers, plus his feet, to play. Now imagine he is on a computer using a mouse and can only click one key at a time. Now imagine he is on a computer using the TouchBar and has to linearly scroll through ALL of the keys to find the one he wants, then select it, then play the key, then hit "done", then scroll, scroll, scroll to the next key, select it, play it, hit "done", then scroll, scroll, scroll... See where I'm going with this?

Just because you *can* do it on the TouchBar doesn't mean it's *better* doing it on the TouchBar. Someone hacked the TouchBar so it could play Doom but I really, really, really doubt it provides a superior experience than playing it on a computer or a console. 😉

I think the kitchen sink approach shown in the video is a poor use of the TouchBar. Why put all those tools in there and force the user to scroll, scroll, scroll when accessing them via the GUI (not to mention a color panel) is infinitely faster? Especially when something like grading is a constant back and forth of balancing multiple adjustments? I think my idea of how I could use the TouchBar in PPro is a much better example than the Resolve demo in the video.

The TouchBar should allow users to quickly and easily do something that they weren't able to do as quickly and/or easily as before. Those criteria aren't going to be the same for everyone which is why user customization is paramount, IMO.

EDIT: Spelling/grammar (at least the ones I caught).


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Herb Sevush
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 20, 2016 at 3:12:18 pm

Bill, first of all let me thank you for posting Booker T. -- nothing like a little Green Onions for breakfast before I start my day. And I learned something -- he was till in high school when he wrote it, and must have been under 20 when he was touring and backing all those great bands. Fantastic.

As to the rest ... the Touch Bar is nice, I'm sure it will be useful to some people, but it's hardly earth shattering. If you really like "touch" interfaces you should try Microsoft - not only a touch "bar" but you can touch the entire screen. But I forgot, you are restricted in your choices because ... well, because you are.

I happen to have short stubby fingers, one of them damaged in an old accident, and have no interest in "touch" technology of any kind, but I realize that a generation brought up on "touch" texting will adapt differently.

On the other hand (see what i did there), editing is not organ playing -- it does not go faster if you use two hands independently. Two brains would be a help, but that's called having an AE, and your not allowed to touch them.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 20, 2016 at 7:24:58 pm

[Herb Sevush] "If you really like "touch" interfaces you should try Microsoft - not only a touch "bar" but you can touch the entire screen. "

I've been using the Surface Book with Creative Cloud for about 10 months now, and in effect it's still a mouse because tapping the screen is what a mouse does, only now it's your finger, and all the little dropdown twirlys in After Effects for example are very tiny and they are hard to "tap." It's still much mo' bettuh to use the short cut keyboard commands.

The touchbar appears to be a different concept altogether because it's (at least in theory) contextual. For me, the question is, will we be able to customize the contextual-ness (aka mapping shortcuts).


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Walter Soyka
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 20, 2016 at 8:24:08 pm

[Richard Herd] "I've been using the Surface Book with Creative Cloud for about 10 months now, and in effect it's still a mouse because tapping the screen is what a mouse does, only now it's your finger"

Although Adobe has made their applications more touch-friendly, they're still clearly not designed for touch.

Contrast that with Microsoft Office 365 -- especially OneNote -- which treats mouse, pen and touch separately for a surprisingly good UX on a computer with a touch screen.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 20, 2016 at 9:46:00 pm

Adobe did well with "tablet mode" also especially in Illustrator (haven't tried AE but that's because I need lots of monitor real estate [but maybe I don't...hmm]) when I'm actually using the pen. They far outpace "palm muting" compared to Wacom.

I'll have to check out OneNote for real. THanks!


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Steve Connor
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 18, 2016 at 10:34:55 am

[Bill Davis] "It couldn't be that Apple is taking their time conceptualizing how their own new track bar system might work within the entire X magnetic timeline concept can they? "

Because obviously they wouldn't have had ANY time to do this before the launch of it, because presumably as they are part of Apple then they would have access to it much earlier than the Resolve team.

I think the touch bar is a nice addition, but I don't think it's going to revolutionise editing


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Don Walker
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 18, 2016 at 9:39:58 pm

[Steve Connor] "I think the touch bar is a nice addition, but I don't think it's going to revolutionise editing"

What I do think is revolutionary (albeit, at a very high price point) is having a 2TB high speed SSD inside the computer.
Very few of my libraries are over 1 TB in size, and I can see having a modest capability RAID at home, and another at work, but keeping the library I'm working with, on the internal drive of the laptop, and doing my editing all from within the machine. Meaning that anywhere that laptop is, my project is, and it doesn't have to be just proxies.

The touch bar would not make me want to buy that laptop. The 2TB SSD does.

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Bret Williams
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 21, 2016 at 1:31:04 pm

The guy at the Apple demo in FCP.co demonstrates the touch bar and can be quoted as saying FCPX has DEEP touch bar integration. So it appears that Apoke thinks they have put quite a lot of time and effort into thinking about it. They just have a different vision possibly.

Also in the video I noted that they use events as I have used them. One event called media, one event called projects. But an additional event for selects which is interesting.

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCP X Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 19, 2016 at 7:25:09 pm

[Bill Davis] "Apple is taking their time to THINK ABOUT how to best program for it "

However, IMO, I do not believe Apple is necessarily thinking about it as much as they are waiting for actual user feedback--which is a very good thing, so here's mine: why do we need a keyboard? It's really just an "app" type of thing. Screen/monitor here, and a flexible input device doo-dad there -- or maybe better than that, where we "program" how much screen real estate is monitor and how much is input device -- like the messaging app interface.

However, as always, I believe price point is a real concern. Those little screens as input device are expensive. So as a comparison, put your iPhone 7 on top of the keyboard -- who needs a keyboard (except when posting here of course)? -- imagine that as the input device.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 21, 2016 at 4:14:17 pm

[Richard Herd] "so here's mine: why do we need a keyboard? "

I think as long as you are looking at a monitor and using something else to control the interaction on the said monitor, the tactile feedback is crucial.

Unless they can figure out some way to have tactile feedback in a programmable Touch Bar type of setting (or 7 rows of Touch Bars) I think a keyboard will still win. Otherwise, you are looking down at the controls a lot instead of looking at the monitor.

Although, the things that Apple (and other companies, of course) are doing in haptics, in that they are emulating a surface or button or sound, through haptics, holds a lot of potential, and the technology is here and now.


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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 21, 2016 at 9:24:31 pm

Regarding tactile feedback, I keep meaning to try palletegear.com, and I recall a similar conversation when camera lenses moved to servo motors.

Haptics is the fancy word I learned, but that's exactly the concept!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 23, 2016 at 8:59:38 pm

[Richard Herd] "Regarding tactile feedback, I keep meaning to try palletegear.com, and I recall a similar conversation when camera lenses moved to servo motors.

Haptics is the fancy word I learned, but that's exactly the concept!"


When I think haptic, I think more of vibration feedback that mimics friction. Like this:







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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 27, 2016 at 6:28:09 pm

WOW! That is fancy, so clever. I hope the price is competitive enough so it can get in the market.


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Charlie Austin
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 19, 2016 at 9:31:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "It couldn't be that Apple is taking their time conceptualizing how their own new track bar system might work within the entire X magnetic timeline concept can they? "

I thought we were talking about Resolve?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 21, 2016 at 1:31:18 am

Resolve is trying to innovate and they are often quicker than Apple to leverage Apple hardware. Obviously they would like you to buy their turnkey Linux system with dedicated controllers. But if you insist on driving their software on a laptop then why not give you a hand to make it less painful.

I can see that the touchbar is just an extension of the touchscreen with slightly better ergonomics. Having used dedicated controllers most of my career for DAWs and now use Tangent devices for Resolve, I know the touchbar is not my cup of tea.

However I won't bad mouth either Blackmagic or Apple for adding functionality that is ergonomically better than a touch screen. The Microsoft surface seems like an attempt to improve touchscreen ergonomics but with typical overhead lighting in studios it won't suit me. Also I really hate the smudge marks of touch screens. Even on my 8" NVIDIA shield tablet I use a stylus.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 21, 2016 at 5:34:31 pm

[Michael Gissing] " But if you insist on driving their software on a laptop then why not give you a hand to make it less painful."

My point is the implementation shown in the video does not look less painful than just using the keyboard and trackpad (we'll stick with the out-of-the-box equipment since obviously you can use a Wacom or Tangent panel on a laptop just like you can a desktop).

Scroll
Scroll
Scroll
Select Highlights
Adjust slider
Hit "done"
Scroll
Scroll
Scroll
Select Shadows
Adjust Slider
Hit "done"

"Hmm...I don't think I quite like the highlights now that I've adjust the Shadows"

Scroll
Scroll
Scroll
Select Highlights
Adjust slider
Hit "done"

Scroll
Scroll
Scroll
Select Tint
Adjust slider
Hit "done"

Scroll
Scroll
Scroll
Select Temp
Adjust slider
Hit "done"


I just don't see that as a step above using the keyboard and trackpad in Resolve given that you'll have all of those adjustments available at the same time in the GUI. I think the TouchBar can be useful, I just don't think how Resolve uses it (at least how it looks in the demo video) is useful.


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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 21, 2016 at 10:33:31 pm

I will attempt to make the point ad nauseam: the difference between touchscreen and touchbar is the contextualizing. It's an important difference, imo. Touchscreen is just a mousey thing in general, what is on the screen is on the screen and you tap it, click, Wacom it -- even if it was really fancy and followed your eye movement, it's still Cartesian X,Y stuffs. Contextualizing is much different.

In After Effects, select a layer and it displays changes to the interface-display: click down the twirly and the display changes, and so on.

Contextualizing is different because the interface device (touchbar in this case but not necessarily) itself transforms based on what the display is doing also. After Effects (and Adobe really) sort of break down here because they have done such a fantastic job of making GUI inside GUI inside GUI inside GUI ... it's turtles all the way down. LOL. So at this moment, After Effects interface is hard to describe contextually. "I shall try nonetheless," he said with his finger pointing at the falling sky.

Even though I am setting a keyframe for scale, ALL of the other commands (even the ones that won't work) are right there on the keyboard (like CTRL+ALT+Shift+\ and it takes me two hands to execute.

Contextual is the name for the idea that, when I am setting keyframes for scale ALT-SHIFT-S, the command for setting a keyframe for Opacity (ALT-SHIFT-T) should disappear, and other commands should show up: CTRL-ALT-+. So the question is:

Why is the input-device showing the stuff I'm not using (in fact it's showing everything!) and not pointing out the next command. Here's a silly example: Launch After Effects, CONTROL-N, [enter], CTRL-Y, [enter], ALT-SHIFT-T, ALT-SHIFT-J, 15, ENTER, CTRL-SHIFT-O, 0, ENTER.

In practice, I find it much more efficient to use my Wacom with touch-on, at my right hand, and the keyboard on my left. I tried using the touch screen to replace the wacom but the problem was ergonomic, my right hand was not resting on anything and my shoulder started to hurt. Wimpy video nerd that I am.

I said all that to repeat myself: touchscreen mousy stuff is different than Contextualizing. IMO, we should demand much more from the touchbar than simply it being mousy-stuff. So, in AE, I should be able to program it/customize it so that when I hit "T" (for opacity) the touchbar shows the icons representing ALT-SHIFT-T etc. mentioned above. Then when I hit "S," the touchbar switches to the stuff for Scale.

But wait, why even have a keyboard?


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Walter Soyka
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 22, 2016 at 1:16:21 am

[Richard Herd] "the difference between touchscreen and touchbar is the contextualizing"

There's nothing stopping touchscreens from being contextual. I'd argue a different point: there's a major difference between a UI that was built for touch and a UI that has touch bolted on.

The After Effects UI is not even a little contextual, but the decades-old, pen-based Flame UI is highly contextual.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 22, 2016 at 5:45:13 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Flame UI is highly contextual"

I'll have to look up some videos, since I don't use Flame -- though I'd like to.


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Michael Gissing
Re: At least one NLE is making great use of the new Touch Bar
on Dec 22, 2016 at 11:43:16 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "My point is the implementation shown in the video does not look less painful than just using the keyboard and trackpad.."

Good point. I hope this beta implementation develops better layouts over time. Personally I hate trackpads and turn mine off on my office laptop as it mucks up typing on the keyboard. Good multi button mouse is preferred. So a touchbar isn't exciting or particularly ergonomic to me.

As this is a newish idea I am not surprised early layouts will be software engineer driven not user but at least Blackmagic does respond to feedback and requests. Much better idea might be the ability to customise like they do for keyboard layouts or enable macros to be expressed on the taskbar. For me though, editing on a laptop isn't preferred and I have no reason to use Mac hardware or OS anymore.


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