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Bill Davis
More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 5:19:24 am

https://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=6355

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Bret Williams
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 5:57:14 am

Hmm, he doesn't mention FCPX or Motion. I can get an out of memory error on my iMac (32gigs) with 10-15 layers all doing a push slide out while another 10 are doing a push slide in. Especially if many of those layers are compound clips made up of plugins from ripple and motionvfx. Yeah, it's extreme, and I've had to reboot just to have enough memory available to export or render. But THATs what pros are putting their machines through. There's no paging that out. But even when you're doing some mundane stuff like scrubbing templates in the browser, (especially 3D ones with motion blur), you can just watch your available ram (I monitor with memory clean) go from 22gigs available to 5 gigs available. And if you happen to have other apps open like Motion or AE rendering, forget it, 32gigs isn't that much. My OS takes up 5 gigs on boot and quickly ramps to 8. On a 16gig machine will I be left with 8 gigs for FCPX, Motion, Safari, Mail, messages, etc? I ask because darn it I have one on order. I'll report back in mid-December when I finally get it. :)

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com FCP X Plugins & Templates for Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 6:28:32 am

There is a thread on this on a FCP X FB page and most of the responses seemed to be split between 16 is good enough and 16 is too low of a ceiling. From the article though, "I am sure there are some genuinely heavy users who will undoubtedly chew down more than 16GB of RAM, and this is by no means an attempt to minimize their concerns. Working with video and audio production is one area I can see this becoming a reality, but I don’t own Final Cut Pro or Logic Pro to demonstrate."

Since we are throwing out fodder, the recommended amount of RAM for OS X (2gig), FCP X (8gig) and Photoshop (8gig). The least amount of RAM you can get on a 6-core nMP is 16gig and I don't remember anyone saying "Man, why would I upgrade to 32 or 64 when it already ships with 16"? I already max out the 16gig in my MBP on a routine basis (and come close to the 24gig on my tower) so when the new mobile chips from Intel are available next year hopefully we'll see a MBP refresh that has a higher RAM ceiling. Considering the RAM is no longer user replaceable I'm sure Apple wouldn't mind the extra margins on the up-sell. ;)


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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 6:44:41 am

The guy also notes that with a fast SSD, disc swaps go lightening fast so RAM isn't hammered as much as it was when a file cached on a spinning disc that took a lot longer to read in.

I was actually wondering why I've never had any delay cutting longer projects on my 2015 rMBP - and I wonder if it's the Apple 1TB SSD doing it's stuff.

Thomas Grove Carter noted specifically that he's spent the week hammering 5k ProRes files on his Touch Bar unit and said nothing about any RAM issues at all. Just "butter" smooth editing.

Could the pure specs obsession some folks focus on be a little bit of an artifact of an era when the hardware always struggled to push frames around fast enough? Maybe with the modern machines it's just not as much a thing that holds back editing performance anymore?

I suppose time will tell.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 7:59:12 am

I'm sure for some it's spec thing and for others it's not. Just like some workflows are pretty hardware intensive and some are not. For me, the more RAM I have, just like the more storage I have, the more I seem to find ways to use it. Effortlessly hop between PPro, PS, and an AE RAM preview at full quality while exporting/transcoding via AME? Yes please.

I'm not up on the latest SSD but the ones I use for boot drives will hit about 420MB/s write and 480MB/s read according to the BM speed test utility. Certainly faster than the spinning HDDs they replaced but I don't know how they compare to the SSD in the new MBP. Computer speeds are certainly getting faster, but the files we are working with are getting more intensive as well. Maybe 16gig is still a comfortable number for most today but will it be in a few years? I don't really see a downside to allowing more than 16gig of RAM (other a battery life hit since Apple put a 25% smaller battery in the new MBPs).

Is 16gig the new 640k? ;)


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Dennis Radeke
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 19, 2016 at 12:21:37 pm

Hi All,

I still poke my head in here to read and keep abreast of things but don't respond or post as I used to. Hope you are all well and as impassioned about your particular NLE choices as always and yes, that is a rhetorical statement - of course you are!

Is 16GB adequate today? Yes, but barely for any video creative professional.
Is making a professional laptop with 16GB as max config wise? Time will tell, but I am a tad skeptical.

Personally, I am looking at switching my day to day laptop to a PC for some of these reasons.

Dennis
Adobe Stock


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Steve Connor
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 20, 2016 at 7:34:45 pm

This piece in "The Register" resonates a little http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/18/why_i_bought_macbook_air_instead_of...

I'm concerned about Apple now, hopefully they'll get back on track next year. If it wasn't for FCPX I might consider Windows for the first time in over a decade!


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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 20, 2016 at 10:42:47 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Is 16GB adequate today? Yes, but barely for any video creative professional.
Is making a professional laptop with 16GB as max config wise? Time will tell, but I am a tad skeptical."


I"m a little more confident, Dennis.

My Retina MacBook Pro (late 2015) is maxed out at 16Gb - and I haven't had a single project where I've felt the need for more performance. Back in the day, pushing bigger data streams and drive I/O was a significant bottleneck.

Today I have completely dependable proxy workflows and hardware accelerated H.264 encoding and a host of other advancements that let me work on lean libraries and virtual files - and when it's time to go "full rez" for output - I just flip the switch.

Also, in the old days, it seems like I couldn't judge things like color or effects when working with less than full rez files. Now, when I park on a frame of anything, X gives me a fully realized preview plenty good enough to make critical decisions.

I'm sure if I was doing "virtual worlds wireframe" stuff or the like I'd feel different. But I don't.

So maybe the eternal hardware chase is slowing down a bit. That would be awesome. Particularly looking back at all the career hardware I've had to finance and pay for over the years - stuff that cost zillions of bucks back in the day - but isn't worth a dime now.

My 2 cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 20, 2016 at 10:54:15 pm

[Bill Davis] "Today I have completely dependable proxy workflows and hardware accelerated H.264 encoding and a host of other advancements that let me work on lean libraries and virtual files - and when it's time to go "full rez" for output - I just flip the switch. "

But isn't that really just a workaround? And today more and more media is 4K, not SD or HD, thus taxing laptops more than ever. Of course, really fast media is probably more important.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 21, 2016 at 10:08:32 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But isn't that really just a workaround? And today more and more media is 4K, not SD or HD, thus taxing laptops more than ever. Of course, really fast media is probably more important."

Probably, Oliver.

But today's work arounds become tomorrows built-ins.

I still have a closet full of "best in class" gear - that rapidly became virtually useless over time. So I see folks debating stuff like the vanished SD card slot or the MagSafe port - and I just chuckle.

I think my dead gear closet still has an early era pen style bar-code reader I bought back in the 80s when I was starting out in production. The idea was that I could bar-code my gear going out on shoots and then quickly check each piece in as it returned - making sure I I'd never leave anything behind on a shoot.

I never actually used it even once.

It's my gold standard of asking myself if a thing is something that I "actually" need - verses something I just "think" I need based on reading about somethings capabilities.

I can do 4k right this second. Is it as perfectly as fast as it could be? Nope. But the first client that comes to me demanding end to end 4k, I'll re-evaluate that.

Until then, the bar code reader lesson will stand. I want it when I actually need it. Not just when I suspect I will some day.

Jumping early is often dumb. Jumping in late is as well.

The magic is in trying to get things just right.

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 21, 2016 at 2:53:45 am

[Bill Davis] "So maybe the eternal hardware chase is slowing down a bit. That would be awesome."

If anything it is going faster but the cost has come down. And as the cost comes down there is absolutely no incentive to slow things. The consumer and professional is now more than ever, pushed to update and upgrade more often both software and hardware. Doesn't matter who makes the hardware, they need churn more than ever.

It might be pertinent then that a laptop lean on RAM now and possibly unusable in 5 years when we are all happily crunching 8k doesn't matter as it is no longer designed for that length of use. Maybe laptops will be an annual purchase by then.


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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 21, 2016 at 10:14:53 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Doesn't matter who makes the hardware, they need churn more than ever.
"


I largely agree.

But the production slowdown isn't as much in the access to more capable gear these days - it's in the time we all need to spend trying to constantly accommodate the changes required to maximize the utility in the evolving systems.

The Touch Bar is, perhaps, a fascinating case in point.

IF it provides an improved editing experience (unproven yet, but possible) - is your personal knowledge delta more enhanced by learning the concept early - and then having to only ADAPT to it's increasing potential as it evolves - or is it smarter to let things settle down and jump in as the technology itself settles down.

Interesting questions.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 2, 2016 at 6:53:30 am

[Michael Gissing] "Maybe laptops will be an annual purchase by then.

I'm sure Apple would love $3-4,000 laptops to be an annual purchase, of course they'd have to actually release new hardware every 12 months to make that happen. 😉

I think for the rank and file I think computer-based gear has a longer useable lifespan now than ever. With that being said, I still think that the 16gig RAM limit on the 2016's will cut it's usable lifespan compared to if it could max out at 32gigs.

I've talked a lot about hardware recently and if anyone cares to know, I decided on getting a MId-2015 MBP instead of a 2016. I hemmed and hawed a lot and was ready to buy one or the other multiple times over the last week or so. For reasons I talked about in another thread, I just didn't think the 2016 was worth it at that price point ($500-$700 cheaper and I might have pulled the trigger on it).

For me it basically boiled down to this:

Worst case scenario of buying the 2016 (and all the new cables, adapters, and/or hubs I must buy in order to get it workflow-functional) is that I'll forever kick myself for spending $4k (if not more) on a piece of gear that I didn't think was worth that price but bought it anyway.

Worst case scenario of buying the 2015 is that maybe I'll end up on a gig where it's woefully underpowered and I'm forced to buy a 2016. If I'm on a gig like that though I'm making enough that the 2016 will pay for itself in short order (and selling the 2015 will get me 2/3 of the cash I'll need for the 2016).

Also, since eGPUs have been brought up before (and was one of the things I was really excited about when I first heard about LightPeak) here's a less than rosy picture of the state of eGPUs if you live in the Mac world.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/12/01/the-thunderbolt-3-equipped-macboo...


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Erik Lindahl
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 12:23:09 pm

I think having "buttery smooth" editing with 5K is in the grand scheme of things quite easy with the insanely fast SSD the new machines have. I think RAM will be more of a problem when you have to compute or cache things, such as say 10 layers of 5K media with a bunch of effects or similar.

Being the MacBooks top out at 4-cores I'd say 16GB is "decent" but on the low end of the spectrum. 32GB would make far more sense. My MacPro 8-core now running After Effects and Premiere is eating 42GB of RAM so yeah… I'd say 16GB is really low for a lot of normal post-workflows.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 12:29:59 pm

A fast SSD will make life better for sure but at 3GB/s it's still something like 1/10th or 1/20th of the speed of modern RAM.


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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 3:39:15 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Nov 11, 2016 at 4:32:26 pm

As I posted right after I got my new laptop a while ago, the SSDs in even last years MBPros are a wee bit faster than 3Mbps...



Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Steve Connor
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 5:30:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "As I posted right after I got my new laptop a while ago, the SSDs in even last years MBPros are a wee bit faster than 3Mbps...
"


He said 3Gbs NOT Mbs


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 6:04:25 pm

3GigaBYTES, not bits. That's 3000 MB/sec and that is also READ speed.

Write speed is slower at 2.2GB/sec

This why I think you cannot judge this laptop on a CPU spec or lack there of. You can add an external GPU and accelerate to your heart's content:

https://bizon-tech.com/us/bizonbox3_design


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Erik Lindahl
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 7:39:32 pm

Yeah. I think it's along the lines of:

HDD = 1X or 150 MB/s
SSD = 15X or 2 000 MB/s
RAM = 400X or 60 000 MB/s
VRAM = 3000X or 500 000 MB/s

Above has to be taken with a grain of salt and it doesn't take into context latency or other things that impact different stages of cache.

Intels new memory tech being released next year might bridge the gap between RAM and and SSD but I don't think we are there yet. And VRAM vs caching to disk, even an SSD, is a huge difference.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 8:04:53 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "And VRAM vs caching to disk, even an SSD, is a huge difference."

No question.


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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 11, 2016 at 10:33:17 pm

[Steve Connor] "He said 3Gbs NOT Mbs"

Shoot. And I can't even claim I was sleepy since I got 5 full hours the night before I posted that.

Brain dead from too much work is more like it.

Sorry.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 15, 2016 at 2:39:52 am

More fodder

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/14/13616404/apple-macbook-pro-touch-bar-rev...

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Ricardo Marty
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 15, 2016 at 4:21:12 pm

I still think that the postioning of the touch bar makes it awkward to use. I would have placed it at the bottom of the key board.

RM


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Eric Santiago
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 15, 2016 at 8:17:10 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "I still think that the postioning of the touch bar makes it awkward to use. I would have placed it at the bottom of the key board.
"


No that would drive me nuts since Im always palming the touch pad at times :P


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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 16, 2016 at 12:51:16 am

I *think* they might have improved the "palm signal rejection" on the new larger trackpads. I still occasionally have my 2015 MBPro read a double touch drag as a triple touch command if my left palm drops too near the trackpad.

During the brief time I was able to test drive a Touch Bar laptop at Apple, I didn't notice that happening at all - even though the new trackpads are significantly bigger than the prior ones.

Just a quick impression.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 16, 2016 at 12:38:40 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Nov 16, 2016 at 12:42:22 am

On the bottom makes no sense. It's a virtual slider in many important modes. If you drop your right hand to slide a volume or color adjustment down (to the left) your right hand runs into your left hand on the keyboard. The Touch Bar being on top means the hand operating it slides back and forth OVER the hand resting on the keyboard. Track pad below. Keyboard center. TouchBar above. Correctly designed.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 16, 2016 at 4:52:57 am

Maybe under the keys and above the pad.

RM


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 16, 2016 at 5:04:12 am

Under the keys though and it's going to be covered by one or both of your hands most of the time. Having it at the top makes the most sense, IMO.


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Oliver Peters
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 21, 2016 at 6:11:46 pm

FCPco's review:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1891-a-week-editing-with-the-new-m...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 21, 2016 at 8:14:25 pm

[Oliver Peters] "FCPco's review:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1891-a-week-editing-with-the-new-m.....

- Oliver"


Complete with a comment and 2 minute video about how the Surface Studio is too reflective and hurts the reviewer's finger... for some reason.

Shawn



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Bill Davis
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Nov 21, 2016 at 10:17:46 pm

[Shawn Miller] " Surface Studio is too reflective"

Great opportunity for Anker or Newer to market a cheap pop-up ambient light shield?

Just asking.

; )

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Mitch Ives
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 8, 2016 at 8:03:29 pm

Interesting... I didn't think there would be that many people with the same thought. We were talking about this at the cigar bar the other night. I guy that does a lot of internet based campaigns was looking to buy 12 new laptops, but changed his mind when he realized they were still stuck at 16gb. I was planning on two more but sat it out for the same reason. We should be past 16gb at this point, and at those prices...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Ricardo Marty
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 8, 2016 at 11:02:52 pm

This must be an apple thing. I just purchased an asus laptop with 32 gigs expandable to 64. I don't want to create any anxiety but could it be that apple wants to shift pros out of the laptops?

Ricardo Marty


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Oliver Peters
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 8, 2016 at 11:08:11 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "I don't want to create any anxiety but could it be that apple wants to shift pros out of the laptops?"

If anything, I think the opposite is more likely.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 8, 2016 at 11:21:57 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "This must be an apple thing. I just purchased an asus laptop with 32 gigs expandable to 64. I don't want to create any anxiety but could it be that apple wants to shift pros out of the laptops?"

Apple is choosing to use a certain type of processor to hit a certain battery life and size of computer. The next size processor would reduce battery life, and/or increase computer size. If you buy a PC with the same or similar processor, you will only be able to get 16GBs of RAM. This is not an Apple limitation. PCs allow you to buy other processors that will get you 32GBs of RAM, just not low power RAM. More here: https://macdaddy.io/macbook-pro-limited-16gb-ram/

The next generation of processors from intel that will allow 32GBs of RAM at Apple's energy specifications (low power RAM) will probably be released in 2018.

I can't imagine that Apple waits that long, and perhaps Apple's and Intel's ideals are drifting.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 8, 2016 at 11:49:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The next generation of processors from intel that will allow 32GBs of RAM at Apple's energy specifications (low power RAM) will probably be released in 2018."

I thought the new Intel CPU was supposed to land mid-2017? Or are you accounting for Intel usually being late? 18 months between computer updates is now well within 'normal' for Apple, so it could be 2018 before the next MBP rolls out.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 9, 2016 at 1:29:34 am

[Andrew Kimery] "18 months between computer updates is now well within 'normal' for Apple, so it could be 2018 before the next MBP rolls out."


I think they are scheduled for second half of 2017, which probably translates to 2018 release for Apple. I think that's without any delay.


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Tangier Clarke
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 9, 2016 at 7:18:54 pm

Even more:

http://macdailynews.com/2016/11/30/why-you-can-edit-a-250gb-file-on-a-macbo...


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Tangier Clarke
Re: More debate fodder about the 16gig limit on the new laptops...
on Dec 9, 2016 at 7:20:30 pm

Better Link:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-you-can-edit-a-250gb-file-on-a-16gb-notebo...


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