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Bill Davis
Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 2, 2016 at 9:32:58 pm

Just read that the main reason the new Mac Laptops are limited to 16 gigs is because beyond that, the battery capacities needed to run them for modern uptime requirements run afoul of the battery capacity limits on commercial flights.

Seems Apples new laptop batteries are designed to come in .5 Milliamps UNDER the FAA/TSA limit.

More RAM, more draw, and the battery system risks sucking for everyone.

Clearly, my Apple laptop putting me in a similar situation to what the unfortunate Samsung Galaxy users currently are in, is unacceptable.

Oh well. Nothing's perfect.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 2, 2016 at 10:30:23 pm

From what I've read the legal limit is a battery with no more than a capacity of 100 watt hours. The 2015 15" MBP's battery was 99.5 watt hours. The 2016 15" MBP's battery is 76 watt hours.

https://www.cnet.com/news/macbook-pro-october-2016-battery-life/

Apple went with their usual MO of wanting to make things thinner and working backwards from there. Best way to make it thinner? Make the battery smaller. Best way to maintain battery life even though you are using a smaller battery? Use less power hungry components. As battery tech improves I'm sure Apple will be able to keep the battery the same physical size it is now and get back to the 99.5 watt hours of the older MBPs and then we'll get more RAM, better GPU, better CPU, etc.,.

If Apple kept the laptop size the same they could have kept the battery size the same and launched the 2016 MBP with max 32gig of RAM, a better GPU, etc.,.


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Bill Davis
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 2, 2016 at 10:48:10 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Nov 2, 2016 at 10:51:06 pm

Perhaps you are correct and Apple just dismisses pros as being fine with weak tea hardware that won't actually serve us very well.

Then again, when I got to actually edit on one of the the new MacBook Pros in Cupertino last week - it felt like they really, really did consider those of us who make out livings creating content - and had worked hard to build a stronger mobile (and perhaps even desktop editing on a portable) NLE system that could work really, really well for even high requirements editing.

I'm so confused.

You tell me they DON'T care about folks like me - because their machine stats track below what's possible - and they tell me they do care - and that the numbers they are delivering will properly let me do precisely what I want to do - edit on the road and in my studio with little or no compromises.

Now I guess I'll have to UPGRADE my laptop to see whose truth is the more compelling.

I'm mindful of the fact that the last time I got a new FCP X rig - the change in editing fluidity was literally IMMENSE.

I guess Editors in general will have to wait another three weeks to see what it's like this time.

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 2, 2016 at 11:20:35 pm

Or they could have used a comparable battery and you'd have less runtime when running only on battery. I think users would have been willing to make that choice as a purchase option.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 2, 2016 at 11:25:17 pm

[Bill Davis] "You tell me they DON'T care about folks like me"

No I didn't. I just told you how Apple achieved the form factor and battery life of the 2016 15" MBP. What you think works for you, or doesn't work for you, is up to you.

As you were fond of saying, YMMV.

I was literally watching the Apple presser with my credit card out and ready to buy because my 2011 MBP is getting a bit long in the tooth for what I need to do. The 2016 model I'm interested in came around $3500 which is about $1000 more than what I paid for my 2011. At that price the 2016 MBP just falls short on too many fronts for me. 10hr battery life isn't really a big deal to me because I'm usually hooked into power since I'm using my NLE, AE, external drives, etc.,. Being plugged takes up one USB-C port, my external drive takes up another which means in a typical use scenario I've only got two free ports to handle whatever else I might need such as monitor out, my G13 controller, ethernet, ingest from SD card or another drive, etc., (and I'm not even going to talk about the bag of dongles the 2016's will need until USB-C becomes more universal).

I'm now in the market for a 2015 MBP.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 2, 2016 at 11:28:08 pm

Maybe this is applicable:

https://www.cnet.com/news/new-macbook-pro-should-have-been-named-air/

?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 2, 2016 at 11:55:35 pm

And from the rumor mill:

http://www.macworld.com/article/3137243/components-processors/the-2017-macb...

That would really burn your toast if you just shelled out $4600 by the end of this year. Wouldn't it? ?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 3, 2016 at 4:45:49 pm

[Bill Davis] "Just read that the main reason the new Mac Laptops are limited to 16 gigs is because beyond that, the battery capacities needed to run them for modern uptime requirements run afoul of the battery capacity limits on commercial flights."

While that may contribute, the reason that MBPs are limited in their RAM is because Apple is favoring portable design + battery life over raw power.

There are processors that allow 32GBs of RAM, but Apple does not want to use them because the laptop wouldn't be thin and/or light enough. The new processors that would fit in to Apple's design ethos aren't ready yet.

SO while it's easy to point fingers, I think we can point fingers at Apple design, and Intel's tardy technology.

John Gruber thinks that Apple now HAS to design their own processors moving forward, in order to deliver the products they want to deliver: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/10/31/intel-mbp-ram


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Bill Davis
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 3, 2016 at 10:31:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "SO while it's easy to point fingers, I think we can point fingers at Apple design, and Intel's tardy technology.

John Gruber thinks that Apple now HAS to design their own processors moving forward, in order to deliver the products they want to deliver: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2016/10/31/intel-mbp-ram"


Point taken.

Link saved - I hope I can find the time to read it this month. ; )

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 3, 2016 at 10:41:53 pm

As the article mentions, the Dell XPS 15 supports up to 32GB RAM. The tradeoff is lower battery life.

That's what options are about. Make YOUR choice, based on YOUR priorities. I typically only REALLY need a couple of hours on battery, since I'm rarely far from a plug....but this is also reflective of Apple's tendency over time, to reduce choices.

That's fine as a business model, but it's important to understand that, typically, almost nothing HAS to be one way or the other. Once again, other people are getting this figured out just fine, and customers are choosing options as they see fit.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 4, 2016 at 12:53:24 am

Schiller quoted from AppleInsider:

When asked about the lack of an SD card slot, Schiller noted that while Apple would have preferred a more universal solution, the company picked the one card format because most of the users had it, and that early Apple implementations of the slot as being "cumbersome" and a "trade-off." The card was excised because of the "path forward" with more generic physical card readers, or the growing implementation of wireless transfer.

Regardless of complaints by users alleging that the new MacBook Pro isn't "pro" enough, Schiller says that the 3.5mm headphone jack was retained for professionals with audio gear that do not have wireless solutions, and still need the jack for macOS.


http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/11/02/phil-schiller-new-macbook-pro-has...

Funny. An SD slot wasn't cumbersome in the last version of the MBP. The truth is that Apple sees photography as only the iPhone, therefore no need for an SD slot. It's also nice to know that the 3.5mm headphone jack defines professionals. ?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Joe Marler
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 4, 2016 at 11:26:24 am

[Oliver Peters] "Funny. An SD slot wasn't cumbersome in the last version of the MBP. The truth is that Apple sees photography as only the iPhone, therefore no need for an SD slot. It's also nice to know that the 3.5mm headphone jack defines professionals. "

Exactly right. This is nothing like eliminating the optical drive years ago. In that case it was obvious optical media would be declining, the drive mechanism itself took up a huge amount of internal space.

With high-megapixel cameras like the Sony A7RII, Canon 5DS and Nikon D810, SD is by far the best way to transfer thousands of raw stills. My doc team uses only the fastest available high-capacity SD cards -- not because the camera needs them but because they transfer faster to the laptop. The newest, fastest cards have a 150 megabyte/sec read rate. There is no wireless camera transfer protocol that can remotely match that.

There is a valid argument this is a pro scenario and most people don't need that. But a $4300 15" MacBook PRO is not something most casual users would purchase.

Re Schiller's statement about camera wireless transfer being "very useful" vs the SD slot being "cumbersome" -- for who? An SD slot is definitely not cumbersome for the pro users it would benefit. He apparently means Apple's designers view it as *aesthetically* cumbersome. That is a topsy-turvy view of things. These products should be practically designed for the end user -- not for the personal gratification of a multi-millionaire designer who envisions his product on a little satin pillow illuminated by a spotlight.

What's "cumbersome" is current camera wireless transfer techniques. By contrast an SD card slot in an expensive Pro laptop is "useful".


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Tim Wilson
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 4, 2016 at 7:30:48 pm
Last Edited By Tim Wilson on Nov 4, 2016 at 7:35:13 pm

[Joe Marler] "What's "cumbersome" is current camera wireless transfer techniques. By contrast an SD card slot in an expensive Pro laptop is "useful"."

This is classic Apple-think to me. When they get things right, it's because they think big. When they get things wrong, it's because they think small.

It's conceivable to me that not one person there has ever tried to transfer even as few as1000 pictures with a couple of movies off an SD card. To THEM, that probably sounds insanely high. To ME, it sounds like a moderately busy weekend, and I don't even do this for a living.

The "thinking small" part is that wireless transfer is designed for doing a couple of pictures at a time to a phone so you can post to Instagram, or to a laptop or tablet so that you can do whatever -- real Photoshop, put into a story, post to a company website, etc.

For all I know, the guys in charge maybe just HEARD about that, saw a demo, and said, that's great. Problem solved....without seeing that welp, actually, it's kind of a PITA for even a couple of pictures, but for anything big, it's nowhere near ready to replace an SD card just from a workflow standpoint, much less talking about speed.

I've never been an Apple doesn't love pros guy, and frankly, keeping the 3.5mm headphone jack on the MBP shows that they DO get pros LOL -- at least some pros, for some things...but this apparently random dropping of features and interfaces is the kind of thing that drives people nuts...

....including yes, even some X's most enthusiastically outspoken proponents NOW, who had to wait for 3rd parties to fill in the features Apple dropped.

Which, noting again, I personally called a feature, not a bug. I want Apple dropping MORE features, and MORE third parties to have opportunities...

...but with physical interfaces, this just becomes another THING to carry. Unlike some of the other adapters you'll need for the new MBP, at least the SD card-USB C adapter actually exists, and looks pretty badass:



But really, that makes a solid half-dozen adapters, cables, etc. that most pros will have to carry.

Of course, one thing that Apple knows about pros. They carry BAGS. Just throw one more thing in the bag, right? No big deal. Problem solved.


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David Mathis
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 4, 2016 at 7:56:26 pm

I prefer to install whatever port I need with a drill. It is a bit of work to do but gets the job done. ?

Just could not resist making this reply. ??


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 4, 2016 at 8:04:14 pm

[Tim Wilson] "But really, that makes a solid half-dozen adapters, cables, etc. that most pros will have to carry."

The nice thing about Thunderbolt is that it can be anything, and is not a point to point system. An SD card reader is only an SD card reader, it does nothing more.

Conceivably, someone could make an adapter with everything on it, including power adapters, and then you throw one extra box in your bag and away you go. That box is now your power adapter AND connection hub.

I have Thunderbolt breakout boxes on almost every computer we have. It allows me to put the ports where I want, regardless of where the computer is, or what it's in, or how accessible it is. Sure, on the surface, it seems like Apple is cheating customers, but in practice, having an extendable cable that can turn in to nearly every single connection or port you could want is not a bad thing. Yes, you have to buy another object. So what.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 4, 2016 at 8:32:16 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Nov 4, 2016 at 8:36:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Sure, on the surface, it seems like Apple is cheating customers, but in practice, having an extendable cable that can turn in to nearly every single connection or port you could want is not a bad thing"

I agree, but unfortunately Apple only gave us 4 ports (and if you get the 13" model only 2 of the ports are full speed). On the previous gen model you had 4 ports for I/O, a power port, an SD card slot, and audio in. Plug in a monitor, external storage and power (which you'll want since you are running a second monitor and external storage) and you have 1 USB-C port free. This thing should come with 6 USB-C ports, not 4.

It's not the dropping of legacy ports that bugs me, it's the reduction of functionality in conjunction with the dropping of legacy ports (and the 16gig RAM limit, and the older CPU, and the lower-end AMD GPU and the removal of the optical audio out...) that bugs me. For a flagship machine that comes with a price hike it's pretty a 'meh' package, IMO.


EDIT:
Just saw that Apple has applied some hefty price cuts to the all the USB-C dongles they sell as well as the 4k and 5k LG monitors they announced along side the new MBP.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 4, 2016 at 9:37:32 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "For a flagship machine that comes with a price hike it's pretty a 'meh' package, IMO."

Exactly. I have no idea how I said that it seemed like a bad idea to me to remove the SD slot could become interpreted as saying that Apple is cheating its customers.



[Andrew Kimery] "Just saw that Apple has applied some hefty price cuts to the all the USB-C dongles they sell as well as the 4k and 5k LG monitors they announced along side the new MBP."

The monitor cuts are nice. The dongle cuts are essential. Not that their engineering choices on the MBP are on the same order as their decision to ship the iPhone 4 with what they knew to be a faulty antenna (their reasoning: nobody uses an iPhone for phone calls) and needing to issue $1.5 billion worth of free cases/bumpers to forestall a recall....

....but I do think it reflects an awareness that the overwhelming reaction to the MBP is "To make this work with other Apple products, I have to buy WHAT?"

Because that really is the thing for me. Apple makes their choices for whatever reasons, that's life -- but this time it feels like they didn't even look at their own product line before making these choices, or didn't care about things like some of the connectors necessary to make these Apple products fit together aren't even on the market yet. Did they think we wouldn't notice?

That's not cheating. It's just....weak.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 5, 2016 at 2:18:51 am

I think you may be misunderstanding,

If you a one box that's full of dongles AND power, you will have three Ports left plus the daisy chain, so four total. Haven't lost anything.

I have two Thunderbolt 2 ports on my laptop now, as long as everything has a pass through, I am not short ports.

For instance, we have TB2 monitors on our MacPros that have passthough, , usb3, and audio ports (as well as HDMI and DisplayPort in), so at the monitor, I can add drives, more monitors, and speakers.

So what capability have I lost, and how many ports am I missing? If you get out of the mjnstate of one adapter per function, Thunderbolt is a boon, and since USB-C has the potential to power the laptop, that breakout box also becomes your power source. So tell me again, what is it that we are missing?

I am disappointed that the new laptop isn't as powerful spec wise as we would have liked, and Apple made a choice to not make a bigger thicker laptop to use more power hungry processors to have 32GB of ram, but Thunderbolt3 is certainly not the bottleneck. As a matter of fact TB3 may allow external GPUs, then the game does change a bit but I'm getting ahead of myself.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 5, 2016 at 5:00:23 pm

Obligatory:







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Tim Wilson
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 6, 2016 at 1:03:37 am
Last Edited By Tim Wilson on Nov 6, 2016 at 1:08:17 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "So what capability have I lost, and how many ports am I missing?"

Nobody said (or at least I didn't say) that any ports were missing. No SD card is a big deal, though. Insurmountable? Of course not. I already posted a picture of a gorgeous adapter that was introduced in January when Apple dropped SD out of the Air.

No USB is kind of a drag, because of the millions of USB thumb drives I've been using over the years. Insurmountable? Of course not.

It becomes a bigger drag because the only wired connection on the cameras I currently own is....you guessed it...USB. Have I lost capability because I need a micro-USB to USB-C cable? No. But I've had to add a cable that I didn't want to add, for no good reason.

If they kept the 3.5mm jack because audio pros need it, it's not too big a stretch to imagine that they might have considered what photography pros need. But even more than video, photography pros have been upset with Apple for a while now.

The exasperating thing is just the extent to which Apple appears to not know what's going on at Apple. So, they held the FCPX release to sync with the MBP? Fine. Great idea.

But did they not notice that the new iPhone was on the calendar for the same timeframe, and there's no way to "natively" connect them without another cable or adapter? Well, I'm sure they did, but I guess they assume that pros don't connect their phones to their computers, or that pros already have a pile of adapters on hand because of the pile of adapters it takes to use a Mac in the real world.

Actually, that latter is probably true. I'd imagine lots of people have USB C to Lightning cables already. But it certainly exposes the limitations of the Dream of A Single Cable for at least another generation of iPhones.

The other thing that struck me is, what was the biggest news out of the iPhone launch? No 3.5mm jack, right? I get that Apple might not have foreseen this, although I can't imagine how they'd have missed it. But related to that, they announced the nifty AirBuds, right? (Okay, okay, Lightning EarPods, TERRIBLE name).

There's currently no way to connect them to the new MBP. None. The current Lightning to 3.5mm adapter is misgendered for this setting. We'd need a female Lightning to 3.5mm audio plug or USB-C adapter, which doesn't exist. Nbd, since pros don't listen to music while they work, and if they do, they use the archaic but apparently intrinsically pro 3.5 mm jack.

NONE OF THIS IS HUGE. Please don't accuse me of accusing Apple of cheating customers because of an uncharacteristically out-of-sync release. It's just that. Nothing more, but in fact, also nothing less. This was not a great rollout.

(Unlike the FCPX rollout, which was FANTASTIC. ?)

You know what's funny to me? If Microsoft had rolled out multiple new products in a short timeframe that were this far out of sync, presenting this range of conflicting messaging, Mac users would be laughing their asses off about the ineptitude of Microsoft, this is why we use Macs, etc etc etc.

Again, no big deal. We won't be talking about any of this next year, any more than we talk about no optical drives in laptops anymore. But especially in the context of this thread, which started with the idea that Apple HAD to do things this way....when in fact that's simply not true, it's TOTALLY true that Apple didn't HAVE to trip up.



They're in charge of all the products. They could just as easily have made sure that the new iPhone could connect to the new MacBook Pro with the cables in the boxes, and at least had a connector for the new AirBuds in the store.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 6, 2016 at 3:16:22 am

[Tim Wilson] "NONE OF THIS IS HUGE. Please don't accuse me of accusing Apple of cheating customers because of an uncharacteristically out-of-sync release. "

I'm sorry, I didn't accuse YOU personally, I was taking about the greater internet backlash that Apple isn't including all the old ports on the computer and they are making you buy dongles/cables/whatevers that are unnecessary, the processors aren't the newest, 16GB limit, who needs a Touch Bar, the iPhone 7 headphones don't work, all for $400 more in starting price, and 20% less volume of an already slim and light machine.

The ironic thing about this laptop is that it seems there's constant pressure and expectation on Apple to create new things and innovate, yet there's also a sense that they can't change a thing and most things should remain the same.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 6, 2016 at 5:54:35 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have two Thunderbolt 2 ports on my laptop now, as long as everything has a pass through, I am not short ports. "

And I think that's the key thing. As long as everything has pass through you are fine, but not everything is going to have pass though. This will impact some people more than others.

As I said previous, my beef really isn't with USB-C or just the four ports (would three ports on each side really be so detrimental?). It's with the total package; the ports, the price, and the internal specs. I think the price cuts on the dongles and the LG monitors is a mea culpa from Apple. Give me a lower price, more ports or better internal specs and I would have pre-ordered day one.


[Jeremy Garchow] "The ironic thing about this laptop is that it seems there's constant pressure and expectation on Apple to create new things and innovate, yet there's also a sense that they can't change a thing and most things should remain the same."

Yes and no. Many people like Apple products because 'they just work' and Apple typically presents a more elegant solution than other companies which means Apple can get away with not being first to market. The last two big product releases (iPhone 7) and the new MBPs don't present elegant solutions (at least not with products that exist today). The staleness of so many of Apple's products doesn't help matters either.


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Steve Connor
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 6, 2016 at 10:44:50 am

I really would't have cared if the new Mac pro was any slimmer than the previous one


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Oliver Peters
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 6, 2016 at 1:05:30 pm

And then there's this:







- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 7, 2016 at 2:18:52 am

[Andrew Kimery] "And I think that's the key thing. As long as everything has pass through you are fine, but not everything is going to have pass though. This will impact some people more than others."

But TB3 represents a step forward, and it seems to really just be beginning. Maybe I am making too much of this, but having power being able to run from nearly anywhere is huge. The TB2 products that don't have passthrough now are passive devices, meaning they do not have external power and rely on power from the TB cable, TB3 could potentially solve this since the power can be introduced almost anywhere in the chain, not just from your computer or computer's power source, which makes terminated devices irrelevant. Also, again, I have never run out of ports on my Thunderbolt 2 laptop, I can't imagine adding two more ports, each capable of more bandwidth and connectivity, is going to somehow be worse. Also, whenever the time comes, I won't buy Apple dongles, as they don't fit in a passthrough environment. Having one dongle per function is useless. You said the price drop is a mea culpa... mmm kinda, I think it's not an admission of error, but an encouragement to try it out, as controversial as it may seem.

It's understandable that a person might not want a huge entity to make these decisions for you, I get it.

This morning, I was frustrated with the people that are still clinging on to enabling daylight savings time in this time zone. Obviously, they don't have little children.

[Andrew Kimery] "The last two big product releases (iPhone 7) and the new MBPs don't present elegant solutions (at least not with products that exist today). The staleness of so many of Apple's products doesn't help matters either."

But isn't that the proof right there? The new solutions are 'inelegant' because they don't have an automatic connection to older technology, including Apple tech. So in order of them to be 'connectually' elegant (and still feel new), they need to have everything that your old computer has, plus anything new.

[Andrew Kimery] " Give me a lower price, more ports or better internal specs and I would have pre-ordered day one."

Price aside for a second, the new laptops are expensive, what spec wasn't hit besides what's on paper? What are you upgrading from? As much as I think I'd like the Touch Bar, I am not upgrading my laptop at this point. I have a 2013 rMBP, and it still does really well for what I need it to do. I edit everything I want on my laptop besides RAW. Do you need to do RAW on a laptop, hence the internal specs disappointment?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 7, 2016 at 6:14:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "But TB3 represents a step forward, and it seems to really just be beginning."

I agree, and maybe I'm not giving it enough credit. The total package, at first blush, is just a bit of a let down to me. In a year or two more USB-C devices will exist so the port thing will be less of an issue, but I'm looking for something that can hit the ground running for my workflows today.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Obviously, they don't have little children."

lol. Couldn't agree more.

[Jeremy Garchow] "But isn't that the proof right there? The new solutions are 'inelegant' because they don't have an automatic connection to older technology, including Apple tech. So in order of them to be 'connectually' elegant (and still feel new), they need to have everything that your old computer has, plus anything new."

It's certainly a tricky line to balance, but it's not like I'm mad at them for not having a FW800 port. Why not a mix of ports like on the previous models and the nMP? You said you never ran out of ThB 2 ports so with the increased bandwidth and flexibility of ThB 3 even just two sound like they would be a boon. In a year or two, once native USB-C devices became more common, Apple could go straight USB-C.

As a not-necessary-pro example, if you want to use your Lightening headphones with your iPhone 7 while charging it via the new MacBook Pro you need three adapters to make it happen. You also can't use the same headphones on the MBP and the iPhone 7 w/o an adapter. The mojo seems off, at least for this round.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Price aside for a second, the new laptops are expensive, what spec wasn't hit besides what's on paper? What are you upgrading from? As much as I think I'd like the Touch Bar, I am not upgrading my laptop at this point. I have a 2013 rMBP, and it still does really well for what I need it to do. I edit everything I want on my laptop besides RAW. Do you need to do RAW on a laptop, hence the internal specs disappointment?"

I'm coming from a 2011 MBP and the RAM capped at 16gig is probably my biggest single gripe on the new machines. I've had 16gig of RAM in my MBP for years and when running multiple apps I chew through it pretty fast. I wish Apple would have kept the thickness and battery the same size so they could've used better GPUs, CPUs and more RAM.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 7, 2016 at 11:16:17 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "[Jeremy Garchow] "The new solutions are 'inelegant' because they don't have an automatic connection to older technology, including Apple tech. So in order of them to be 'connectually' elegant (and still feel new), they need to have everything that your old computer has, plus anything new.""

I hope you don't include me in that characterization. I'm the one who keeps encouraging companies to burn backward compatibility to the ground. ?

No, the Apple non-solutions are inelegant because the two newest flagship devices can't connect to each other with a cable included in either box, and there's currently no way for two of the three newest devices to connect AT ALL.

This will of course be solved in due time, but the whole point of "we're one company and we control the entire ecosystem" implies a commitment on Apple's part to make sure that their newest stuff DOES work together.

Of course, it's worth noting that Apple hasn't suggested anything of the sort. There's a reason why there's never been a commercial with a Mac and an iDevice in them at the same time.

There's a meaningful overlap between the intended audiences, but if you imagine them as a Venn diagram, the largest part of the iDevice audience does NOT coincide with the Mac audience. Associating them too closely would be a disaster, which is why Apple launched them at separate events. Apple isn't willing to gamble the largest source of its income against its smallest customer base, nor should they.

But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Apple to have made sure that the three hardware products (phone, buds, mbp) they introduce in the same fortnight would include interconnectivity in the box, if not also in the store at launch.

I don't think that this is especially controversial. It's certainly well within the mainstream of the response from Apple's paying customers. It's why Apple responded so quickly with unprecedented price reductions across their "suite" of adapters, of which I'll wager that many of the most popular will be for connecting new devices to new devices. The sale doesn't appear to have been part of the rollout at all, but a tacit acknowledgement by Apple that they tripped over their own ottoman.

Because if they HAD rolled out the sale at the same time as the products, AND included a yet-to-be-created adapter to connect two of their three newest products as part of that sale (can't; doesn't exist), that would have been almost as elegant as including a cable or adapter that would have connected the two most expensive ones in the box of at least one of 'em.

Almost. ?

But it again acknowledges that the unified Apple ecosystem is something of a myth. (Again not dinging Apple for this. They've never claimed it that I can recall.) Not enough iDevice users are using Macs, and I bet you a real pony that not enough Mac users are using iDevices* (or at least projected to buy new ones) to make this even vaguely justifiable financially, even if it would have offered more satisfying optics,

*That is, to try to restate an earlier point more clearly, of COURSE there's an overlap in the customer bases, but even a cursory look at the numbers makes obvious that plenty of Mac folks are using Androids, and plenty of Windows folks have iDevices. It's folly to treat them as the same market, which is why Apple doesn't.

Still doesn't change that they missed the chance to sync up their newest devices and connectors, and had to retreat into price cuts for accessories after getting publicly called on it.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 7, 2016 at 11:37:06 pm

[Tim Wilson] "here's a reason why there's never been a commercial with a Mac and an iDevice in them at the same time. "

Haven't you learned to never say never, Tim? ?







Apple's ecosystem is going wireless/to the Cloud, so maybe they just don't care as much if they wired connections get clunky as they get phased out?

For example, Apple's Continuity feature(s) is billed as allowing your to "move seamlessly between your devices with Handoff, Universal Clipboard, iPhone Cellular Calls, SMS/MMS messaging, Instant Hotspot, and Auto Unlock."

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204681

All of these features are Apple specific so you can't do them with an iPhone and Windows combo. The iDevices certainly don't require other Apple hardware to work, but there are some cherry-on-top features that only work in the Apple ecosystem.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 8, 2016 at 2:32:55 am

[Tim Wilson] "But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Apple to have made sure that the three hardware products (phone, buds, mbp) they introduce in the same fortnight would include interconnectivity in the box, if not also in the store at launch."

I know you've been out of the Apple game for a while, but I don't need my phone to hardwire to my computer anymore. They sync wirelessly without me having to do much of anything. If I need a USB3 to lighting cable, they are available right now, today. I just don't see it as that big of a deal as more now than ever, all Apple products feel like one big device, from my phone to my TV, and I can even share all of that really easily with my family without having to plug in a single cable to transfer anything. I have never used the Apple EarBuds, so it doesn't really bother me that the lightning versions won't fit in to a new MBP.

As far as work goes, we adapt everything to everything, a few more interconnects isn't going to harm, and in some cases it may help.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 8, 2016 at 1:56:32 am

[Andrew Kimery] " The total package, at first blush, is just a bit of a let down to me. In a year or two more USB-C devices will exist so the port thing will be less of an issue, but I'm looking for something that can hit the ground running for my workflows today."

Honestly, man, a 2011 MBP and a 2016 MBP will be entirely different machines. I have no idea what workflow you could not do on a 2016 MBP that you can do on a 2011 MBP. You have so many more options, so much more speed, and unless you are rendering 3D CG, and doing heavy RAW rendering, you will be good to go.

[Andrew Kimery] "As a not-necessary-pro example, if you want to use your Lightening headphones with your iPhone 7 while charging it via the new MacBook Pro you need three adapters to make it happen. You also can't use the same headphones on the MBP and the iPhone 7 w/o an adapter. The mojo seems off, at least for this round.
"


I don't think I have ever used my iPhone headphones on my laptop. This is really a non-issue unless you carry your laptop without a backpack of some sort? I carry around my trusty MDR7506s everywhere my laptop goes. I also plug them in to phone when I need it. I can't stand the Apple headphones and I am glad they made them obsolete on almost anything else because they aren't deserving of the port. There I said it! ?

[Andrew Kimery] "I'm coming from a 2011 MBP and the RAM capped at 16gig is probably my biggest single gripe on the new machines. I've had 16gig of RAM in my MBP for years and when running multiple apps I chew through it pretty fast. I wish Apple would have kept the thickness and battery the same size so they could've used better GPUs, CPUs and more RAM."

Again, it's going to be an entirely different machine. The ridiculous fast SSD will make up for any pageouts if you get that far, and as I inked to before, there's an eGPU case for TB3 already available for preorder. You can rack up more GPU than ever before on a laptop.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 8, 2016 at 2:28:15 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have no idea what workflow you could not do on a 2016 MBP that you can do on a 2011 MBP."

I could totally do it with a 2016 MBP. I could also do it with a mid-2015 MBP, save a bunch of money and then buy a 2017 (or 2018) MBP that will hopefully have more RAM, the next gen CPUs from Intel, and avoid the USB-C crossover mess as more USB-C devices will exist. The 2016 MBP feels like a 'tweener' machine to me and if I'm going to drop $3300-4100 on a laptop I need to feel more confident about that purchase than I currently do about the MBP.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't think I have ever used my iPhone headphones on my laptop."

Point is less about the headphones used and more about the adapter dance that is needed just to do something as basic wanting to charge your phone via your laptop and have the headphones (any headphones) plugged in at the same time.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 8, 2016 at 12:50:30 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "But TB3 represents a step forward, and it seems to really just be beginning. "

And so, we begin the beginning: https://bizon-tech.com/us/bizonbox3-egpu.html/


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Damn you TSA - the 16gig NewMacbook Pro limit is about battery capacity?
on Nov 4, 2016 at 2:02:27 pm

The comment from Schiller about Pro's needing the 3.5 mm jack because they have all these audio gear is even more bitter knowing that Optical Audio was removed from the jack... which is what some of those same pro's were using.

http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/04/new-macbook-pro-models-lack-optical-aud...

And then there is the news about the new ports on the Macbook Pro's not being compatible with some Thunderbolt 3 devices...
http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/03/new-macbook-pros-thunderbolt-3-compatib...

Happy about the FCPX update, but the laptops... Not so much. And I live in Europe, and Apple's prices have been getting *really* expensive the last 2 years, and this Macbook Pro confirms it x10. A couple of years ago if you wanted to buy a NEW model 15" MBP, base price was 1800 euros. Now it's 2700 euros, BASE price, without your 5 dongles that you have to buy or the extra power chord that doesn't come with it anymore. The prices are getting insane.

https://mathieughekiere.wordpress.com


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