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Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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Craig Seeman
Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 3:21:58 pm

Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . . I had some thoughts that might throw some concerns at some people.

Apple is moving to AV Foundation. It may be possible that at some point . . .
That will give FCPX an advantage on Mac
That Avid and Adobe may also have to go through a major change if they need to support it.
That Apple, which controls Quicktime, may muck with that in ways that impact Avid and Adobe negatively.

Of course there's no way to know the likelihood of the above but if some you think Apple is somehow "sinister'" or has an industry wide shift as its ulterior motive one might wonder about other moves they may make regarding Quicktime and AV Foundation.

Just very wild speculation . . . but Apple moves to Apple's advantage.



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Paul Dickin
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 3:25:48 pm

Hi
Isn't Quicktime EOL'd since v7.*?



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 3:47:51 pm

[Paul Dickin] "Isn't Quicktime EOL'd since v7.*?"

And think about where that might lead as far as impact on other NLEs.
I honestly don't know where it will lead . . . but at this point there's no Quicktime 10 on Windows either. I think Apple has a plan.

If one observes how Apple acts as a business you have to wonder if there's a bigger impact they are working towards. FCPX is a piece of the puzzle as is Lion and AV Foundation. I think there's also reasons that they dumped nearly all products that were built from outside acquisitions. I think there's stuff that's been in the works for some long time and it's why ProApps development slowed since 2007. They tend to start projects and experiment long in advance of releases such as making an OS work on Intel long before they publicly announced that move, for example.



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Eugene Lehnert
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 3:53:46 pm

But why did they release this version without basics everyday needs like XML, EDL, OMF and tape control support? Why didn't they just call this Final Cut X Express and tell us Final Cut Pro X is coming?



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:10:50 pm

I think this, FCPX already includes the foundation even though it's incomplete in many if not most other aspects. I think Apple's thinking long range and they are in a situation where they can take a short term "hit" to get there.

I also don't think Apple pulled FCS2009 because they thought FCPX was an adequate replacement in its current state. I don't think they are that badly managed as a company. Personally I think there may have been financial, contractual, licensing obligations they wanted to exit from as quickly as possible. Again, I believe this is tied to the fact that Motion and Compressor, which continue, are "in house" products as is the new FCPX. They dumped nearly everything that had acquired code.

I also think that AV Foundation replacing Quicktime is a big part of the puzzle. I'm speculating that Apple's leverage on Quicktime may impact the rest of the Post industry. I think AV Foundation will play into this as well.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:23:46 pm

[Eugene Lehnert] "But why did they release this version without basics everyday needs like XML, EDL, OMF and tape control support? "

Good question. They could have waited until they had more features developed. They could have allowed a longer transition time which actually had been their history in both OS9 to OSX and PPC to Intel transition.

Just speculation but I think there is a reason they pulled FCS so quickly an released a very incomplete FCPX and I don't think they expected people to move from FCS to FCPX at this point. I'm guessing, only guessing, that in the game of "business" chess, the pawn is being sacrificed at this point for a motive not yet clear to us.

I will hold that this was done with significant forethought though. I also believe it's more complex than simply dumping the "pros."

I can speculate why this happened as it did and some of my other posts include some thoughts. For all we know it can be a deliberate "paid" beta so they can observe things that may impact some of their future decisions.

I'm just looking at pieces of the puzzle. I don't have them connected yet.

I also don't think all of Apple's moves will be quick. I think we're going to see some things that may play out over a year or two.

I can speculate that there seems to be underlying extensibility in FCPX, metadata, APIs that Apple needed to get out the door sooner rather than later to have impact on developers that might utilize that.

Another puzzle piece might be to push third party developers by pulling FCS from the market. I'm not sure of that at all. It's one more thing to consider. Certainly some developers are working to support FCPX as part of their own business survival.

Again this may be another aspect of the dependencies that Apple has created on their technologies.



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Eugene Lehnert
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:32:17 pm

It does seem kind of crazy to abandon the pro market when they have something like this now:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/H5187VC/A/Thunderbolt?fnode=MTY1NDA0Nw&mc...

You can edit uncompressed 2K on your laptop. And FCP X is 64-bit. It's such overkill for the prosumer market.

I wish they just called this thing Final Cut X Express.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 6:32:57 pm

[Eugene Lehnert] "I wish they just called this thing Final Cut X Express."

It will be Pro, eventually, just not yet. Of course how the industry takes to it . . . in that possible future, remains to be seen. One could say that not only is FCPX missing things, it seems almost "uneven" as to what is and isn't' in the program at the moment. I think there's a mix of priority and ease of implementation. Some "pro" features were easy to implement and some fundamental stuff was apparently not. That's why I don't think this is "Express" so much as a work in progress. In some sense that's why some may say it's even more "beta" than "1.0" because it seems the feature set itself isn't complete on any level. For example, these days multicam is something that wedding videographers use as well as teens shooting their friend's music video. It's basically a bit of an immature hodgepodge. It'll be interesting watching it grow up. It'll take some time until the feature is even let alone "pro." I think Apple's long range plan is that it'll be "pro."



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Rocco Forte
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 6:50:20 pm

"It does seem kind of crazy to abandon the pro market when... "

It's obvious - they're building 2K video cameras!


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:16:23 pm

[Rocco Forte] "It's obvious - they're building 2K video cameras!"

Not Apple but they are looking to support them. JVC has something in the works that looks to be in an "affordable" price range. 4K. They were displaying this. Canon has been toying around with 4K (or was it 2K) also and were displaying a concept camera last year.

It may well be that Apple sees 4K happening in a bigger way than 3D and it's why you see support for 2K and 4K in FCPX but not 3D.



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:21:49 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It may well be that Apple sees 4K happening in a bigger way than 3D and it's why you see support for 2K and 4K in FCPX but not 3D."

I seriously hope you're right that Apple have all the foresight necessary to anticipate the death of stereoscopic - it can't come too soon!

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:58:42 pm

Their biggest piece of acquired code- iTunes!


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 6:44:27 pm

[Bret Williams] "Their biggest piece of acquired code- iTunes!"

And let's see how that plays into all this. Note that while others are thinking of Apple being a "consumer" company, I'm postulating a "media" company. I think they are trying to extend their tendrils throughout the market, not just distribution, consumption. In fact it may be that in spite of FCS's market share, Apple felt they needed to make a major shift in content creation (and ultimately not just the mid level consumer, my guess) and are in a position to take the short term hit as they make adjustments on that end of the business. I think they are looking at both vertical and horizontal market penetration.



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Bill Davis
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:02:12 pm

Will be very interesting if someday, I can create my special interest video in FCP X v3, drop it to iCloud - and anyone with an Apple branded TV, an iPad or suitable box can access it via iTunes WITH the capability to drive pay per use revenue to my PayPal account.

That would kinda change everything, huh?

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:24:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "Will be very interesting if someday, I can create my special interest video in FCP X v3, drop it to iCloud - and anyone with an Apple branded TV, an iPad or suitable box can access it via iTunes WITH the capability to drive pay per use revenue to my PayPal account.

That would kinda change everything, huh?"


Have you wondered why Compressor 4 has presets for HTTP live streaming?

The missing Apple controlled link is HTTP live streaming distribution. Perhaps iCloud and/or the vast amount of server space Apple has put together.

Watch Apple's land and real estate acquisitions and I don't mean places to put Apple Stores either.



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Scott Sheriff
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 10:36:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "Will be very interesting if someday, I can create my special interest video in FCP X v3, drop it to iCloud - and anyone with an Apple branded TV, an iPad or suitable box can access it via iTunes WITH the capability to drive pay per use revenue to my PayPal account."

Until high speed internet reaches all of America, you'll only have access to about 40% of the market. There is no foreseeable future where broadband will reach the penetration levels of television, which is in the high 90's.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Bill Davis
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 8, 2011 at 6:23:57 am

I think I would be just fine with 40% of 250 million potential customers - particularly since that represents the entire populations of virtually ALL of the major cities in the country.

If you couldn't drive business sustaining revenue in a situation like that with essentially NO cost of goods sold outside initial development. - it would be entirely about the lack of a successful marketing strategy - not in any way shape or form the dearth of a viable market.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Tim Wilson
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:14:03 pm

[Bret Williams] "Their biggest piece of acquired code- iTunes!"

Hmmm, I'm thinking the biggest piece of acquired code might be OS X. :-)


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:51:39 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Hmmm, I'm thinking the biggest piece of acquired code might be OS X. :-)"

From Steve Jobs failed Next Computer venture?
I remember Apple choosing that over BeOS I think it was.



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Tim Wilson
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:23:36 pm

[Craig Seeman] "[Tim Wilson] "Hmmm, I'm thinking the biggest piece of acquired code might be OS X. :-)"

From Steve Jobs failed Next Computer venture?"


Well, I don't know about failed: Steve sold the company for $429 million and 1.5 million shares of Apple stock.

And yes, BeOS was in line to be Apple's next OS, but talks stalled over money. Jean-Louis Gassee wanted $200 million, but Apple didn't want to go over $125m if I recall. It worked out for the best, for Apple anyway. Nexstep, Openstep, and Web Objects...oh yeah, and that Jobs kid...seems like a pretty good deal.


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Bill Davis
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 6:58:32 pm

Because those are only "basics" to a very narrow slice of the overall programs user base.

XML, EDL, and Tape are the tools of the centralized, monolithic studio video processing model that is aging rapidly - and that production model has been under siege for well over a decade. (I can't remember what year was it that the Academy Awards broadcast graphics package was first done by a guy in his garage rather than at a post house but I think it was around 2004!)

Only work done in the "traditional workflow" model necessitates the tools you mention.

I suspect that the vast majority of the videos made for money today are done by one-man bands and smaller, distributed teams and and they simply do not require such legacy tools to succeed.

For what it's worth.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Herb Sevush
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:36:08 pm

Because those are only "basics" to a very narrow slice of the overall programs user base.

But it is that narrow slice that is here on the Cow. We are that user base, and because there are others like us we can exchange information. And the information we are exchanging is that Apple is no longer interested in creating products for us.

Only work done in the "traditional workflow" model necessitates the tools you mention.

Correct again. And since that model will still be dominating the broadcast and film industries for at least the next 2 years, any product that doesn't take that into account is by the definition of this small slice, not "pro." Whether you can make money with it or not.

I'm sure there are many video forums around where the users are thrilled all to pieces with FCPX. It's just that the editors on those forums are not producing network and cable tv shows and theatrically released features. No one is saying FCPX sucks, we're saying it sucks for us.

(Actually some people are saying it sucks, but it flowed better the other way.)

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:15:41 pm

[Herb Sevush] "
But it is that narrow slice that is here on the Cow. We are that user base, and because there are others like us we can exchange information. And the information we are exchanging is that Apple is no longer interested in creating products for us."


I think they have keen interest. They're starting over though in many respects. Do you use Pro Res or Quicktime?

Apple is a media company IMHO and that is not limited to distribution and playback. They are looking to dominate content creation as well. I don't know if they'll succeed but they did this, I think, because they are in the financial position to start over so the development is more in line with the rest of their enterprise and entry into both horizontal and vertical markets.

[Herb Sevush] "Correct again. And since that model will still be dominating the broadcast and film industries for at least the next 2 years"

Apple may be thinking beyond the next 2 years though. Thunderbolt is also part of that long range for broadcast support. Not everything is progressing in sync though.

Apple is in a position to take a risk, take a hit, they aren't stupid though. It's a calculated gamble probably being well managed (at least I suspect that would be their opinion).



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Scott Sheriff
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 10:40:09 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Correct again. And since that model will still be dominating the broadcast and film industries for at least the next 2 years, any product that doesn't take that into account is by the definition of this small slice, not "pro." Whether you can make money with it or not."

I'd say your two year timeframe is conservative at best. Five is more likely, and ten wouldn't be unthinkable by any stretch of the imagination.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 3:55:48 pm

Apple is moving to AV Foundation. It may be possible that at some point . . . Avid and Adobe may also have to go through a major change if they need to support it.

Avid's ONLY business is "pro" video - news, broadcast and film. What are the chances they will design an AV Foundation NLE that will alienate their entire user base? None.

That isn't quite as true for Adobe, but I think the chances are very low there as well.

Your whole Apple-centric post misses the point, and here I'm going to quote something Simon Ubsdell wrote a few days ago -

Contrari-wise we look at Apple (now) and we see a business that only happens by chance to be traveling the same path as we are. Somehow we have chosen to ignore this for a number of years - suddenly the truth of it is inescapable. We have everything to lose, they have virtually nothing. Whether or not they are committed to carrying on along the same path as us, we have been made aware of how precarious the relationship is on our side. We have been very lucky so far, but now we realize that it was indeed luck all along.

(http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/8894)

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:15:36 pm

What I've been wondering is the implications of AV Foundation in the bigger picture. I wonder how AV Foundation will be supported in the PC world? I can remember not too many years ago when quicktime was very difficult to deploy to the broader market due to integration problems with PC's. As there are so many iGadgets that are tied to PC's, I wonder what Apple's solution is for that? Lion's release this month should be quite telling. I truly hope they don't decide to EOL QT support for the bigger world of PC.

Aside from that, I think a pretty fair segment of the "professional" market will be migrating from the Apple platform altogether after this FCP(su)X release. At least, a fair segment of the folks I've talked too and read post from.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33:09 pm

[Marvin Holdman] "Aside from that, I think a pretty fair segment of the "professional" market will be migrating from the Apple platform "

Short term maybe depending on what Apple does. How many Post professionals on Windows use Apple's Quicktime?

[Marvin Holdman] "I wonder how AV Foundation will be supported in the PC world?"

That's actually a key question.

Notice how ProRes is being handled. Apple just recently started licensing it on software encoders on Windows. One might wonder the path that's taking and why is that happening now as opposed to why not sooner. Note the hardware products that rely on ProRes as well.

Between Quicktime and ProRes Apple is developing/had developed things that a lot of the post industry is dependent on.

I can't help but thin Quicktime, ProRes, AV Foundation are key to some of Apple's decisions and the impact may be felt across the industry.



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Matt Callac
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:18:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Your whole Apple-centric post misses the point -"

I think Craig's point is that if you're going to switch, you might as well think about a full platform switch as well. Apple is effectively killing quicktime as a format (for AV Foundation). Adobe and Avid if they decide to continue releasing their software on Mac will eventually have to shift to AV Foundation as well.

-mattyc


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Herb Sevush
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:35:55 pm

Matt -

At this point I'm definitely thinking of a platform switch, the idea of investing any money into Mac Pro's seems very risky indeed.

On the other hand I have no doubt that if either Adobe or Avid get involved in AV Foundation products, those will be designed with pro editors in mind. This false notion that AV Foundation is the reason for the magnetic timeline or the lack of pro features is ridiculous.

Apple was switching to AV Foundation and they CHOSE that point to re-target their video products. One didn't cause the other, but the fact that it happened simultaneously blinds people into believing a false causality.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:46:51 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Apple was switching to AV Foundation and they CHOSE that point to re-target their video products. One didn't cause the other"

Keep in mind widespread use attracts developer support. Targeting the "vast middle" may actually be their "Trojan" back into the high end. It may take a couple of years though.

If, for example, Avid and Adobe eventually support AV Foundation, it may be possible to import those projects into FCPX two or three years down the road when FCPX is looking quite different with wide spread developer support.

Alternately there may be motive to advance technologies on the Windows side so Avid and Adobe aren't dependent on either Quicktime or AV Foundation.

It does point towards some potential changes beyond FCPX.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:41:37 pm

That's a reasonable possibility.

One possibly path this can take is another Mac vs Windows battle. I don't know how it will play out but it can range from Avid and Adobe dropping Mac support for their NLEs to the other end and making them relay on Apple resources for their development to yet a third way which is some competing technology.

In one/some of the many analysis I've read there was speculation on how Apple likes to destabilize things (obviously in an attempt to gain some advantage).

Whatever comes, I suspect we're just seeing the beginning . . . and it might be tumultuous . . . and I don't know if it will eventually turn out to Apple's advantage . . . but I think they'll try. Seeing Apple take on Adobe Flash might just be a small indicator.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:27:29 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Avid's ONLY business is "pro" video - news, broadcast and film. What are the chances they will design an AV Foundation NLE that will alienate their entire user base? None. "

Does Avid depend on Apple Quicktime at all?

Re: Simon Ubsdell's comment
"Contrari-wise we look at Apple (now) and we see a business that only happens by chance to be traveling the same path as we are."

Apple has been known to try to steer people down a path. They may not succeed but that's been part of their recent DNA. Apple, in many respects, seems to steering into becoming a media conglomerate of sorts (amongst it's many paths) and I think they are looking at dominating in various areas and are working in the long view of things.

I think Quicktime (it's decline) and AV Foundation may play a role in that. One can observer the "Flash" battle with Adobe to see that. Some superficial hints may also be in the presets in Compressor 4 for http live streaming.

If Apple controls Quicktime and other NLEs are using it, they have leverage.
Apple's Pro Res has also moved into a point of leverage as well, not that there aren't alternatives . . . but you really have to watch how Apple moves long term. Look at the hardware now dependent on ProRes and that Apple is now licensing it on the encoding side on Windows.

I've always thought one of the most important games I learned as a kid was Connect the Dots. In this case the Dots may not be numbered so we may connect them differently and, thus, have different pictures. I'm simply offering this as mine.

Look at what Apple can leverage and see where that might lead. Again it doesn't mean they'll succeed but one should observe the Dots and try connecting them in different ways.

Some might say Apple has become a consumer company but some might say they are becoming a media company as well.



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:45:19 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Apple has been known to try to steer people down a path."

In terms of their larger, consumer-facing business, this is undeniable.

But how true is it to say that Apple have ever steered the pro-editing (or the pro-audio or the pro-anything) community down a path that wasn't already quite well trodden by others? If that is their plan now, which it clearly appears to be, it surely represents a departure in terms of the pro-apps, doesn't it? But it's not as if they have a track record of doing this within this particular market sector.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:55:12 pm

In many respects it is unchartered territory for Apple but so was the iPod and iPhone at one point. Apple does venture into new turf.

I can't help but think that ProRes, Quicktime's decline and AV Foundation will result in another major shift. Of course Apple's leverage may give them advantage or it may be a protracted battle with a very uncertain shift.

FCP did result in major changes over the long haul both in technology and market.

BTW I've never thought of Apple as an originator so much as a brilliant aggregator of what pre exists. Apple didn't invent the NLE, the music player, the smart phone, the tablet. They looked at the market and mixed pre-existing stuff together in new ways.

Other pieces in the puzzle of predicators might be how Webkit was handled or Apple's original statements about the technology behind FaceTime. I honestly don't know how those technologies work as predictors of Apple's behavior. I can't connect those dots yet. I'm just pondering.

I just think things going on are a bit deeper, long range, greater impact than many have been looking at. I certainly do NOT think it's as simple as "abandoning the Pro market" nor do I think Apple's behavior is any guarantee of business success. Giants do wane and fall. I do think there's more afoot though.



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Bret Williams
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:45:58 am

I'm really starting to think the old rumor that they sold the Pro Apps division may be true. But as a public company shouldn't it be of record. Sure would explain lots of stuff, especially recent discussion of legal ramifications if they were to start selling FCP 7 again.

I do think we're digging too deep. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. Follow the money. Between those two concepts I think lies the answer. I don't think they can plan as deeply and as long term as is being discussed. Too much can happen. Their options need to be broader and more open.

It's becoming obvious that FCP X was prematurely released because they had to. And it's becoming obvious that there is no FCP 7 import because they were not permitted to do so. They could do it of course. They have 65 billion to throw at the problem. They could fix it if they wanted to or were allowed to legally. There is something going on and all will be revealed I'm sure. Very interesting stuff.

Another conspiracy theory I saw on the Avid forum. Apple has made this new paradigm and low price to get it in the hands of the next wave of users. Those that have never used an Avid or FCP 7 or Premiere and their standard paradigm. The reason? It will only be available for the mac. FCP 7 was too standard. Users could switch to MC or Adobe and get their hardware elsewhere. So - students use FCP X. They have to get macs. Over the years it's the new thing. But nobody can "switch" because it's so darn different. Just a theory but a simple one. And the point to keep people on mac hardware. Apple is a hardware company so they say. And the numbers still show that. They're not making tons of money on selling apps or renting videos. They are making bazillions (just a guess) on hardware. http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/01/21/chart-where-apple-makes-its-money - and it's part of the company mission statement. They make all this great interconnecting clouds and app stores and .macs etc. because it makes their hardware ecosystem better and more attractive and lucrative.

Whatever they're doing, they doing it to sell more iPads, phones, macs, devicex's, etc.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:56:13 pm

Does Avid depend on Apple Quicktime at all?

They use it, I don't think they depend on it.


You do realize that their is a lot more to our business than editing - you know all those cameras, recorders, sound equipment thingies - The ONLY place in Broadcast /Film that Apple even has a presence is in post, and there they have just left the arena. Apple could disappear tomorrow and the Broadcast / Film industry would hiccup once and then move on.

This whole take that Apple is the master of broadcast / film media is laughable. It was only by playing up to, servicing and yes even fawning on the Film / Broadcast media that enabled Apple to get a foothold. Their ability to "steer" the industry ended when they just took a dump on it.

And yet this is all beside the point - you started this post by suggesting that those of us switching platforms should have second thoughts. Why? Nothing you have insinuated is going to happen for years. FCPX needs a year just to catch up with where it should have been, while the other "A's" are moving forward. Even if your wildest imaginings are true it will take years to play out. Why then should someone trying to earn a dollar take that into consideration now, especially considering it's mostly idle speculation.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:09:54 pm

[Herb Sevush] "you know all those cameras, recorders, sound equipment thingies"

You mean the ones the ones that use Apple ProRes?
Obviously not all but some do and some are major and reach into the upper end of the industry.
Of course they can shift to something else. I'm not saying the destabilization will work to Apple's advantage but it's their business model to try. Look at the battle they have with Adobe over Flash.

[Herb Sevush] "And yet this is all beside the point - you started this post by suggesting that those of us switching platforms should have second thoughts. Why?"

Not at all. In fact it's quite possible that Avid and Premiere may eventually have to leave the Apple platform entirely. It may be that Apple will force the decision. It may also be that they may become dependent on Apple's technology. Who knows. It's speculation.

If you think Apple isn't attempting something larger than FCPX you may be underestimating them. It may well be Apple becoming the next Next computer for all we know. They aren't beyond the attempt to leverage control. That has been their recent history and I expect that the underlying technologies are going to be a factor.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:14:00 pm

If you think Apple isn't attempting something larger than FCPX you may be underestimating them.

I'm not underrating them, you may be entirely right about this. It's just that it has nothing to do with my decision making in the next year. If Apple takes over the world, I'll deal with it. I just hope they implement a nice multi-cam feature when they do.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:52:43 pm

[Herb Sevush] "It's just that it has nothing to do with my decision making in the next year."

It shouldn't. Currently FCPX has severely limited use for many professional purposes. FCP7 is aged to say the least compared to some of the things Avid or Premiere are currently capable of.

[Herb Sevush] "If Apple takes over the world, I'll deal with it. I just hope they implement a nice multi-cam feature when they do."

I think as part of my perception that Apple is willing to "sacrifice the pawn" for a longer range outcome is that they think that most switchers are going to remain on Mac base Premiere and Avid for the time being.

The good thing is that switching NLEs is not longer the expense that it was 10 years ago, not that there aren't many costs involved.

I really think FCPX is just a "learning tool" at this point anyway . . . for what will be a stronger feature set over time. Of course Avid and Adobe aren't going to be standing still either. BTW that's why I think AV Foundation may play a role in this. It may well be that Apple isn't' so concerned that Pros use FCPX so much as AV Foundation eventually becomes a reason people stick with Macs regardless of NLE. It may be that FCPX is just the "concept car" that the rest of the industry might pull the good things from. Apple benefits if it keeps you buying Macs.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:20:45 pm

[Craig Seeman] "If you think Apple isn't attempting something larger than FCPX you may be underestimating them."

I keep hearing this Craig from everyone except Apple. Honestly, if it were any company in the world except Apple I doubt anyone would still be even remotely interested at this point without a clear message and path.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
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POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 6:00:05 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "if it were any company in the world except Apple I doubt anyone would still be even remotely interested at this point without a clear message and path."

But it is Apple and sometimes their odd paths work. That doesn't mean this will. Jobs also brought us the Next computer. It's just an interesting thing to observe.

I can't connect at all the cause for the secretive nature Apple is about where they're heading with this because some things seem to be beyond "competitive advantage" motives.

I do think Apple has ulterior motives though. I don't mean to imply anything sinister. Probably more amoral than anything although we humans love to anthropomorphize things.

Good or bad, Apple has mindshare and the discourse in this forum shows that. I'm curious how Apple will use that mindshare as they leverage their technologies though.



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Scott Sheriff
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 10:46:38 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "I keep hearing this Craig from everyone except Apple. Honestly, if it were any company in the world except Apple I doubt anyone would still be even remotely interested at this point without a clear message and path."

And even then, it appears that there's many loosing interest in apple faster than they can get something workable out the door.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 11:51:04 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "And even then, it appears that there's many loosing interest in apple faster than they can get something workable out the door."

But sometimes interest is won by force not by pleasantry.
You'd also be surprised how short people''s memories are when they being to look at other factors.
There's a slew of companies the P.O'd people in the Post industry and had significant comebacks. Avid is one of them for example. People still buy Autodesk Flames despite what they did with Edit* and Combustion and Cleaner.

A lot of people are speaking out of anger and while the impact can be long lasting it can just as easily not be depending on what happens down the road. My own opinion is that Apple did think this through.



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Brandon Kraemer
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:23:10 pm

"That Apple, which controls Quicktime, may muck with that in ways that impact Avid and Adobe negatively."

They already have... Apple mandated Adobe use an updated QT API when they went to develop CS4, the result is you can't render over an AFP or SMB network if your resulting file is a QT over 2.15 GB. This has thrown a huge wrench into a lot of peoples pipelines. I am well familiar with the recommend work arounds, the fact is this worked for over a decade and now is broken and the workarounds are not convenient for a lot of people. Apple acknowledges this bug and Adobe has publicly stated the two companies are trying to work together but it's Apple's issue to fix.

So yea, hopefully there isn't a repeat of this kind of thing, but this bug certainly took people by surprise.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:57:18 pm

I speculate that Quicktime's future (or lack thereof) may have even greater impact and it may be deliberate. It's just speculation though.



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Jeff Bernstein
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:41:11 pm

As one who helped create QuickTime in the early years, I can tell you that Avid and Adobe have well-placed fears of entrusting the core of their products to Apple. Believe me, Apple tried to do just that. There were many meetings. Ultimately, it was Apple who did not step up to the plate.

As a prime example, QuickTime on Windows is single-threaded whereas it is multi-threaded on the Mac. As a result, performance under QuickTime on Windows is hampered. This was by design to encourage development on Mac.

As Brandon pointed out, there has been a bug in a QuickTime API that helps bridge the 32-bit to 64-bit worlds. It affects ALL 64-bit apps that call on QuickTime, not just Adobe apps. If actions speak louder than words, and as we all know, Apple doesn't like using words, Apple's response has been effectively, "this is not important to us." How else do you describe a known bug that has lasted nearly 2 years?

While AV Foundation represents the rewrite of QuickTime 64-bit, it is not a direct replacement. Moreover, the rewrite of QuickTime in whatever form and whatever name, has been mismanaged and not delivered in a timely fashion. Had it been in capable hands, it would have been delivered 2 years ago. Apple killing Carbon64, on the other hand, has a lot to do with this. But, that is a whole other post.

Many, if not all, of the entertainment powerhouses, have adopted a file-based workflow for this new world of digital delivery. As such, many have adopted QuickTime. But they have found, like many of you, that QuickTime is EOL'd. In addition, many attempted to get Apple to fix the various issues in QuickTime, such as Gamma, and also asked Apple to enhance QuickTime for today's needs. Apple's response... "We don't care."

As a result, Disney, along with SMPTE, have embarked on a replacement for QuickTime, yet it emulates many of the core features of QuickTime, but brings it to the next level. The key here is that industry begged Apple, Apple said no, then the industry said we better make sure this is an open standard so we don't find ourselves in this position again.

Will software manufacturers embrace this new standard? It is too early to tell. The hope is that it will become an industry standard with support on as many OS platforms as possible.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 6:38:28 pm

Thanks for that insight Jeff.

I do think there's a battle in the works over this. I'm not sure where it'll go. It might have some elements of the old Windows Media vs Quicktime vs MPEG implementation.



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Noah Kadner
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:33:19 pm

The challenge for the bigger FCP pro houses, broadcasters and post-production facilities is going into a holding pattern while waiting on FCP X to mature. Sure they can look to the Apple FAQ page and take comfort knowing that many of the features they need are on Apple's roadmap for the future. And they can experiment and learn with X while still doing work that requires specific features using their existing FCP 7 licenses.

But what happens when they need to add more workstations with FCP 7 right now because the features they need to expand operations are not available yet in X? No more new FCP 7 licenses are being offered by Apple. Sure, these customers can look to eBay or find old stock or whatever. But doing that for 100 seats at a time may be more of a challenge than they want to deal with and thus, they may be forced to switch for no other good reason.

Apple bringing back FCP 7 for sale, at least until X is a few more updates down the road would make a successful transition from 7 to X a lot more plausible. Especially for the high-end professional customers Apple seems to be targeting in their marketing and NAB visit. Just like they kept OS 9 on the market for a good time after the initial release of OS X and same with iMovie 08 leading to a re-release of iMovie HD to smooth the seams of transition. Because as all good editors (pros and otherwise) know, the key to a good project is a graceful transition.

Noah

Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Panasonic GH2 and GoPro HD Hero.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:08:24 pm

[Noah Kadner] "The challenge for the bigger FCP pro houses, broadcasters and post-production facilities is going into a holding pattern while waiting on FCP X to mature."

The cost of moving to a new NLE has never been lower although it's still an unforeseen expense. It ain't like it was in 2000 and certainly not like 1990.

I really don't think Apple expects anyone to wait. As I mentioned I think they're sacrificing the pawn in a bigger chess game.

[Noah Kadner] "Apple bringing back FCP 7 for sale, at least until X is a few more updates down the road would make a successful transition from 7 to X a lot more plausible."

I think Apple's reasons for pulling go beyond FCPX because I think they know very well FCPX is not currently a replacement. I suspect there are business reasons around contracts and licenses and other obligations that Apple wants to exit from quickly. At the most superficial they don't want the support responsibility but I think it runs deeper than that. I think the "cost of the hit" is lower for them this way, at least in the long run . . . at least I think they believe so. This was a calculated business decision on their part and the think the complexities of that include things we can't know about (at the moment at least).



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Tim Wilson
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:32:07 pm

[Jeff Bernstein] "As one who helped create QuickTime in the early years, I can tell you that Avid and Adobe have well-placed fears of entrusting the core of their products to Apple."

I think that many people at Adobe and Avid would agree with you. :-)

As for Avid's dependence on QuickTime, I can't speak for today, but it's easy to forget how long Avid has been at this. The first version of Media Composer shipped in 1989 -- QuickTime wasn't even released for two more years!

Also, QuickTime didn't support timecode until 1995 -- SEVEN years after Media Composer shipped. And those of us who were around at the time can testify that the word "support" is generous. It was a mess. Avid NOT using QuickTime as a foundation is a big reason why sync was so rock solid for Avid when that simply wasn't the case for QT-based systems.

(And in the category of "been at this a long time," Avid won a technical Oscar for Film Composer in 1998 -- a nearly 10-year-old, Mac-only product, back when Final Cut was still running on Windows at Macromedia!)

Like I said, I don't know about how Media Composer works with QuickTime today, but it's important to understand how long Avid had been in the game as a Mac-only company before QuickTime was even vaguely useful.


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Don Walker
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:40:25 pm

As an editor, I am more a former hardware guy, (Big switchers, CMX, ADO D-2 etc.) So i still struggle with the nuances of Quicktime and such. Is AV Foundation just another container (like quicktime) or is it something bigger. Any web articles that you could point to, that a non-programer could embrace? FYI, I did do a Google search, and still came away confused.....

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:44:04 pm

For the geek who likes to find a lot to read.
http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#DOCUMENTATION/AVFoundation/Referenc...

This explains the fundamentals.
http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/AudioVideo/Conceptual...

I believe there's stuff here if you're willing to register as a developer.
https://developer.apple.com/videos/wwdc/2011/#working-with-media-in-av-foun...

Philip Hodgetts addressing it nearly a year ago in something closer to English
http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2010/08/introduction-to-av-foundation/

and a slide show
http://www.slideshare.net/invalidname/introductino-to-av-foundation



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Hector berrebi
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:29:39 pm

this whole thread and not a word on MXF?

Avid is MXF based, that's how Avid writes and likes its media. this comes after years of their previous, proprietary, SD only OMF.

if i'm not completely wrong about it, MXF is rather open standard with much simpler licensing than QT.

MXF (Material eXchange Format) supports metadata and a myriad of codecs. P2 and XDCAM use it as wrapper ( shooting 80%+ of the world's television, unlike QT cameras and recorders which are very good but still much less popular)

from wiki : "MXF has been designed to address a number of problems with non-professional formats. MXF has full timecode and metadata support, and is intended as a platform-agnostic stable standard for future professional video and audio applications"

just recently, my company assisted in a large network transition to FCP7. as part of the requirements we had to practically rape 20 FCP stations to read and write MXF in a server environment, due to the broadcast pipeline they had decided on.

it was a little rough, but it worked... even in tight schedules of sport and news broadcasting.
(in that specific case, i do believe it would have worked better with QT)

for a good, professional and sane future, a dominant video file format shouldn't belong to a company like Apple. it should be as open as possible.


about Avid's dependency on QT, i'm not sure about the inside of the software code, but i don't believe its a catholic wedding

of course there is AMA, which is a newer module that can natively read and edit QT among other formats... but that's recent.

and there is export to QT and a whole export module for it, but you can run Avid on a PC without QT pro on your system, and even using QT alternatives. (i think protools needs QT in some way, but that may be outdated, i'm not an audio guy)

i think Avid depend very little on QT,
(and on a side note, i also think Avid is responsible for quite a lot of MacPro sales)

and if Adobe is smart (and i believe they are) they shouldn't depend on anything Apple too

you draw an interesting future Craig.
in my opinion, why switch at all? at this price...just for nostalgia we will all still run FCPX on our Macs, iPhones and iPads alongside anything else we choose to work with for at least the next two years :)

Hector Berrebi
prePost Consulting


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Geert van den Berg
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:02:12 pm

I completely agree.

AV Foundation is just a framework at the moment, part of what in combination with other frameworks makes FCPX. It's not a container format like Quicktime or MXF, or is it?

It could be that Apple will create another container format in the future, but then there's still MXF. Almost every broadcasting company that we supply content to asks for mxf files, and some ask for mpeg transport streams but that's the minority.

I am not sure what engine Avid is using, but Adobe has the Mercury Engine. Premiere plays what is at moment the most common mxf format, D10. (mind you I don't know nothing about it other than that I run a demo and having read about it on the internet, the demo runs swifty though!). So I don't see why it would need Quicktime or AV Foundation to work as it does now.

Does Adobe need Quicktime to be installed on a PC to run?

And as been said Avid has its own file container format too. It's called MXF but's it's proprietary, so in my opinion it's confusing that it's called MXF. But then again, not every other MXF is the same thing either.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 1:51:43 am

[Geert van den Berg] "AV Foundation is just a framework at the moment, part of what in combination with other frameworks makes FCPX. It's not a container format like Quicktime or MXF, or is it?
"


QuickTime was both a framework and a container format. AV Foundation is just a framework. It works with multiple container formats, including the QuickTime container format.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:02:40 pm

Actually you draw some of the battle lines and I suspect their will be battle lines.

It's not just Quicktime either. Look at AJA's use of ProRes. Look at Apple's licensing for ProRes on Windows which just started.

Apple holds a few keys and there will be efforts to work around those by Adobe and Avid for sure. I strongly suspect Apple is positioning themselves for a future battle.



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Geert van den Berg
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 10:00:51 pm

You're right Apple has created a great codec and it's getting used more and more.

But Avid could also create new variances of DNxHD and offer a 4k 4:4:4 version.

It appears that DNxHD is a bit more open. But then again probably not so open that Adobe can use it directly in Premiere. It's possible to encode or decode that codec with ffmpeg or ffmbc though.

DNxHD can be wrapped in MXF. Since Apple's ProRes license is either very difficult to obtain or expensive, we probably never going to see a ProRes MXF.

As far as codecs are concerned I think the big players are Apple, Avid and Sony (which we shouldn't forget, with the tapeless workflow they're losing some ground, but they're very established in file based workflows with IMX/XDCAM codecs and now expanding with HDCAM codec).


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Hector berrebi
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 7:39:29 pm

[Jeff Bernstein] "As a result, Disney, along with SMPTE, have embarked on a replacement for QuickTime, yet it emulates many of the core features of QuickTime, but brings it to the next level. The key here is that industry begged Apple, Apple said no, then the industry said we better make sure this is an open standard so we don't find ourselves in this position again.

Will software manufacturers embrace this new standard? It is too early to tell. The hope is that it will become an industry standard with support on as many OS platforms as possible.
"


interesting post Jeff... thanks

the questions i would have asked you over the years.... lol
damn QT has always been such a mess, and yet so brilliant, QT is way beyond just being a player or a video container... it sometimes seems as deep as a mini OS... and then there's stuff like QTVR or the editing features... or just being able to open multiple players simultaneously...

and just like you say... its not an open standard. so it comes with chains...

any info i can read on this new SMPTE/Disney file format?

it sounds quite interesting.



hector

Hector Berrebi
prePost Consulting


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:16:58 pm

And I think Apple is making moves now because of the ensuing challenge over the next standard. That's why I think there's a lot more to this than FCPX.



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David Cherniack
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:23:06 pm

As I read the tea leaves I see a post industry aghast, furious, and fed up with Apple. That in itself may have many more far reaching consequences than whether Adobe or Avid have to dance to Apple's AV Foundation tune. MacPros, if they continue to exist in a useful form, may not look so shiny with Apple-sheen when the company is sending a profound "We really don't give a flying fillintheblanks" message to an entire industry.

Could be the next round of hardware upgrades for a lot of companies shows a lot of HP workstations being sold. Truth is they're nicely designed, work well, you get on-site service, and no my-way-or-no-way attitude.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:31:04 pm

[David Cherniack] "As I read the tea leaves I see a post industry aghast, furious, and fed up with Apple. That in itself may have many more far reaching consequences than whether Adobe or Avid have to dance to Apple's AV Foundation tune. "

Not if Apple has leverage. Apple's a business. They probably don't care who is aghast if they have leverage over decisions that might be made to their benefit.

The result may well be competition over a new "media foundation" which Apple may be positioning itself to its advantage (at least Apple may believe so).

Sometimes you win with a PR game. Sometimes you win with a Power game. Obviously Apple isn't looking to win the PR game with this.

I wouldn't over simplify Apple's machinations.



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David Cherniack
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:37:23 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Not if Apple has leverage. Apple's a business. They probably don't care who is aghast if they have leverage over decisions that might be made to their benefit."

Craig, as this list clearly demonstrates, leverage is a rapiply fleeting quantity when you piss off people enough.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:08:05 pm

[David Cherniack] "Craig, as this list clearly demonstrates, leverage is a rapiply fleeting quantity when you piss off people enough."

Licensing technology often has more power than pissing people off. In fact some can get quite pissed about having to license from an entity they don't like.

You think the iTunes store and even iBooks was all loveydovey on all sides? One doesn't have to be nice when it comes to power plays.

People are looking to much with the emotions and not seeing why Apple may be doing the maneuvers they're doing. Business war can be an ugly thing.

I think Apple is setting up for a future power play. It doesn't mean they'll win it but that's what I see when I connect the dots.



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David Cherniack
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:11:08 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think Apple is setting up for a future power play. It doesn't mean they'll win it but that's what I see when I connect the dots."

You may well be right, but then again your dots are rather fuzzy :)

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:33:42 pm

[David Cherniack] "You may well be right, but then again your dots are rather fuzzy"

I'm just suggesting people think many moves ahead before they get blindsided. Of course some of this may be unavoidable. look at Apple's battle with Flash. There's no "winner" per se but people are in the midst of dealing with this.



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Gary Pollard
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 10:46:30 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Not if Apple has leverage. Apple's a business. They probably don't care who is aghast if they have leverage over decisions that might be made to their benefit."

We've seen how Apple behave when they feel they dominate. I've always felt the one thing that has protected users is they do not have majority market share.

Apart from short term questions of usability, many users should also consider the long view, and ask themselves: "Should I buy into their plans for world domination"?

If your suggestions of their long term strategy are correct, you would be entrusting your future to people who make good business decisions but poor ethical ones, or at least ones that do not consider your interests.

Your theory may not be wrong, but it gives me more reasons to question my Apple usage. Not fewer.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 11:29:58 pm

[Gary Pollard] "Your theory may not be wrong, but it gives me more reasons to question my Apple usage. Not fewer."

I have no intention to paint a rosy picture. I'm just connect some dots and they can certainly be connected in other ways.

It's not just Mac and Windows either.
It's HP saying no to Thunderbolt
It's Sony saying yes to Thunderbolt but with a USB connector rather than miniDisplay.
How will Intel play this if at all going forward.
We're also seeing nVidia CUDA vs OpenCL.
There's going to be some fierce competition over some media technologies that underly NLEs, I think too. I can't help but think media server development is going to play into this at some point.

Of course sometimes the end user benefits from competition. Sometimes it can make things more complex and costly. I have no idea which way it will go and in what combination of good or bad for "us."

Apple is a business and as they've grown they actually been playing "harder" hard ball then they ever have before. On the other hand I don't hate my iPhone or iPad because of it. I just recognize that they're part of Apple's ecosystem. Certainly Google's part of that battle also coming from another angle. Who knows if they have something up their sleeves with WebM and web video distribution vs the ubiquitous H.264. Throw in Apple vs Adobe on Flash and even the "indirect" stuff will splatter on us.

I don't have any less trust in Apple than in any other company though.
Move to Windows, trust Microsoft?
Avid announcing the end of Mac support and then backpedaling?
Adobe ending Mac support for a time when they rewrote Premiere?
Autodesk ending Edit*, Combustion, Cleaner?
Remember Matrox's first round of FCP support and ending that?
I'm sure there's a slew of other companies I'm overlooking. Some really raise people's dander and yet short of folding, they tend to come back even if it takes a few years.


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Gary Pollard
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 12:03:45 am

[Craig Seeman] "Apple is a business and as they've grown they actually been playing "harder" hard ball then they ever have before.

Hardball with competitors is fine. But hardball with customers who have built their working life on your product is a different issue. And I think Apple have ALWAYS played hardball whenever they felt they could. As I said, only the dip in market share modified that behaviour for a while. But only for a while.

[Craig Seeman] On the other hand I don't hate my iPhone or iPad because of it.

Me neither. But while they are nice to have, they are not central to my experience of my computing or my career. I can change my phone, or drop my iPad tomorrow (I'd miss two apps on my iPad but that's about it).

[Craig Seeman] Move to Windows, trust Microsoft?

I don't trust anyone 100%. That's why I use two systems. That's why I save my docs in RTF format in case I decide to wave goodbye to Office. (I held on to Word Perfect a long time before throwing in the towel).

But, Microsoft and PCs are not one. And because it's a more open framework, and despite having had dominant market share for so long, I don't think they have ever been as ruthless about killing the competition, or controlling users, or simply saying "fudge you" to users. Even if they wanted to be, it's tougher for them to do so.

You buy into the benefits of a closed system at a price. As many are now discovering.

The fact that my Apple products don't play nice with Flash, suits Steve Jobs' ego, but it does nothing for me as a web user. I have to find third party workarounds. I don't believe one software provider should be in the business of trying to destroy another.

[Craig Seeman] Adobe ending Mac support for a time when they rewrote Premiere? Autodesk ending Edit*, Combustion, Cleaner?"

Unfortunately, it seems that as a software developer you are always in a weak bargaining position with Apple unless you do it this way.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 12:21:55 am

[Gary Pollard] "Hardball with competitors is fine. But hardball with customers who have built their working life on your product is a different issue."

See Autodesk.

You think Avid was "nice" when they announced they were dropping Mac support?

[Gary Pollard] "Unfortunately, it seems that as a software developer you are always in a weak bargaining position with Apple unless you do it this way."

Certainly being nice is good but for a business winning is even better. Nice is just one means to a win but some companies (not just Apple) jettison that for other strategies and tactics.



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Gary Pollard
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 12:30:38 am

[Craig Seeman] "See Autodesk."

Most people here right now aren't trying to make a decision about Autodesk. However, they are trying to make a decision about Apple.

I suspect "Someone else did it" isn't likely to factor much.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 12:49:06 am

The point is that many if not most people will buy the product they feel best meets their needs even regarding a company's past history.

Right now FCPX can't possibly meet the needs of most professionals. A year or two may be a very different story and if (only if) Apple's workflow excels in the cost benefit ROI departments, a lot of people will buy
. . . at that point in time.



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Tim Wilson
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 12:59:08 am

[Craig Seeman] "You think Avid was "nice" when they announced they were dropping Mac support?"

But it never actually happened. A guy rattled his saber, he's long gone, everybody he worked for is long gone, and Avid never stopped making Media Composer for Mac.

I'm not saying that the development history had absolutely feature parity. It didn't, but neither has Adobe's path with Premiere. Of course, both Media Composer and Premiere Pro are virtually identical across platforms today.

A big difference, though. Adobe DID drop Mac support when Premiere Pro was introduced in 2003. BOOM, gone, no Mac support for what used to be a Mac-only product. No warning. Gone, overnight. No path forward except on Windows. For FOUR YEARS.

This is of course no longer the case. I'm a fan of Premiere. I think that many FCP folks should have been using Premiere all along. It's simply better suited to what they're doing.

Let's just be clear on the history. Media Composer: never dropped on Mac. Premiere: dropped on Mac for FOUR YEARS.

I still say full steam ahead. Premiere deserves your full attention as an outstanding alternative among several as you evaluate your next steps. So does Media Composer. But it would be unfortunate to let a misremembering of history be part of your decision-making process.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 1:44:38 am

[Tim Wilson] "Let's just be clear on the history. Media Composer: never dropped on Mac."

I did say "announced" which is all they did and is accurate on that point.

[Tim Wilson] "Premiere: dropped on Mac for FOUR YEARS. "

I suspect that at that point they felt they couldn't or didn't' want to compete with FCP for various reasons.

FCP really wasn't anything close to a competitor to Avid when they made that announcement which was around 2000.

At this point though Premiere seems to be the most practical solution to open old FCP projects. It seems clear from the additional info Apple is disseminating that, despite clarify bits of the roadmap, FCP import into FCPX is not going to happen or even be encouraged on their part. I do think Apple is pointing towards and enterprise level solution.



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Dennis Radeke
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 11:29:33 am

[Tim Wilson] "A big difference, though. Adobe DID drop Mac support when Premiere Pro was introduced in 2003. BOOM, gone, no Mac support for what used to be a Mac-only product. No warning. Gone, overnight. No path forward except on Windows. For FOUR YEARS."

While I wasn't at Adobe at the time I can say that part of the reason that they didn't immediately move to Mac was that they were doing a complete re-write of Premiere at the time which became Premiere Pro 1.0. The enormity of that task coupled with FCP's rise may have accounted for Adobe initially being Windows only.

By Premiere Pro 2.0, we were hearing loud and clear that Mac people wanted in on the action and beginning with Premiere Pro CS3, we once again became cross platform and have no intention of moving from that position moving forward. With CS5, Adobe did another complete rewrite and ported Premiere Pro and After Effects to 64-bit on both platforms, so we have a solid foundation from which to build on for years to come.

Sorry for the mild history lesson,
Dennis - Adobe


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Tim Wilson
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 5:08:08 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "part of the reason that they didn't immediately move to Mac was that they were doing a complete re-write of Premiere at the time which became Premiere Pro 1.0....."

I hoped I didn't imply any disrespect to Adobe. It was the right call.

I was working at Boris FX at the time, making plug-ins to support Premiere Pro and nearly two dozen other NLEs, including Final Cut Pro and Media Composer. Before that, I built my Mac-only business on...Macs. I was Mac-only, going back to February of 1984. I bought Premiere back when it was Mac-only.

But when I saw what Premiere Pro was doing on Windows, I had to admit that I simply couldn't imagine that kind of performance on Mac. There was nothing, from any vendor, to suggest that it was even vaguely possible any time in the forseeable future.

And you know what? There WASN'T any way to get that kind of performance on Mac anytime soon. That's why nobody else did it. It wasn't possible.

And you know what else? There's still not another NLE on Mac that offers that kind of raw performance.

I wasn't Mac-only by the end of 2001, partly because of what I saw in Premiere Pro. I bought the exact laptop that Adobe used for the Premiere Pro demo I saw at Boris FX. Same color and everything.


Okay, an observational tangent.

The fact is that, as a platform, Mac has not been well optimized for third-party power. Now THAT may have been a factor for Adobe, and maybe Avid...but in the end, there are soooo many examples of cross-platform software performing better on Windows. It's not because vendors "like" Windows better. It's that Microsoft and their hardware partners for CPUs and GPUs aggressively support third-party power...because for them, there are pretty much ONLY third parties.

Again, speaking personally, my guess is that every hardware and software partner that Apple has ever had is waiting for the other anvil to drop, because they've seen it again and again.



Aaaaand, we're back.

The turns in Premiere's path couldn't possibly have worked out better for Mac customers.

Which is exactly my point. Look at the product, and weigh it against your needs. Ignore the misinformation and fuzzy memories, and even accurate but irrelevant ones. There are no good reasons to make bad choices.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 5:25:53 pm

The usual disclosures. Everybody I've mentioned is a COW advertiser. I do not speak for Creative COW here.

I have bought all 3 NLEs I discuss. My primary NLE as the owner of a video production company was Media 100. My time as a third-party software partner with Adobe and Apple extended to my time working at Avid. In the context of trying to be historically accurate about complicated pasts, I was only talking here about Premiere Pro, and not its relevance as a choice for any particular customer.

I prefer chocolate shakes to be made with vanilla ice cream and chocolate sauce, rather than with chocolate ice cream. I'm not sure why, but that just seems wrong.

I like them both a lot, but evaluated from a distance, I prefer Dick Sargent, who it turns out was offered the gig even before Elizabeth Montgomery.

Julie Newmar IS Catwoman. Sorry, she just is.

Anything else you'd like me to disclose, just ask.


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Don Walker
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 5:43:59 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Anything else you'd like me to disclose, just ask."
Kirk or Picard?

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Tim Wilson
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:04:13 pm

[Don Walker] "[Tim Wilson] "Anything else you'd like me to disclose, just ask."
Kirk or Picard?"


Dude. C'mon.




Seriously.




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Matt Callac
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 12:26:58 am

[Gary Pollard] "That's why I save my docs in RTF format in case I decide to wave goodbye to Office. (I held on to Word Perfect a long time before throwing in the towel)."

I wasn't as smart as you and now I have lots of unusable old documents in Appleworks format.

-mattyc


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Walter Soyka
Re: Before you get too comfy staying . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 1:14:41 am

[Craig Seeman] "Avid announcing the end of Mac support and then backpedaling?"

Avid "backpedaling" here meant they were actually listening to their customers, and that was absolutely the right thing to do. Look at all the people here clamoring for Apple to do a little backpedaling themselves now!

And since I can't turn down a chance to take a cheap dig at Apple for being stingy on expansion slots -- one the key reasons Avid cited when they looked to step away from the Mac platform was the release of the beige G3, which offered only 3 PCI slots. The 9600 (which preceded the Power Macintosh G3) rocked 6 slots.

My pedantry aside, though, I very much agree with your overall point that this is only the dawn of a new generation of frameworks and applications which will continue to evolve and mature. I'm not sure that Apple's plans necessarily include us, though -- I think another way of connecting the same dots could be that professional editorial is just collateral damage in their larger plan.

In times of change, fortune favors the nimble, not the faithful. Let's all stay on our toes.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Hector berrebi
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:38:05 pm

[David Cherniack] "Could be the next round of hardware upgrades for a lot of companies shows a lot of HP workstations being sold. Truth is they're nicely designed, work well, you get on-site service, and no my-way-or-no-way attitude.
"


i must agree with you David.
HP workstations are a pleasure to work with, not as good looking as Macpros, and tend to be more expensive, but a better workstation, and good service.

now if it wasn't that damn windows OSing them...

Hector Berrebi
prePost Consulting


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David Cherniack
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:45:16 pm

[Hector berrebi] ""

Hector, I must admit I'm rather perplexed at your negative take on Windows (I'm assuming we're talking 7). Across a number of systems I find it rock solid, very tune-able, and working smoothly. To each his own, I guess.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Hector berrebi
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:52:35 pm

[David Cherniack] "Hector, I must admit I'm rather perplexed at your negative take on Windows (I'm assuming we're talking 7). Across a number of systems I find it rock solid, very tune-able, and working smoothly. To each his own, I guess.
"


yup...

i agree with you again, windows 7 is rock solid and a HUGE improvement. i don't miss XP at all...

and yet. it is just not an elegant system.

these past weeks i walk around hoping for something new to emerge... a modern, open, simple and wonderful platform, it seems like apple is going mobile on us and Microsoft... they're so.... microsoft...

can you trust a company with Steve Balmer as its CEO?

maybe Google... lol

Hector Berrebi
prePost Consulting


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David Cherniack
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:27:11 pm

[Hector berrebi] "can you trust a company with Steve Balmer as its CEO?"

I'm only sure that I can't trust any company...long term.

[Hector berrebi] "and yet. it is just not an elegant system."

I love elegance, but I prefer functionality. Besides, cutesy isn't elegant for me - and I haven't seen a completely elegant piece of software since Framework running on MSDOS.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:28:32 pm

Windows 8?



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:38:45 pm

[David Cherniack] "Could be the next round of hardware upgrades for a lot of companies shows a lot of HP workstations being sold. "

I should add this also relates to Thunderbolt. HP has said they won't be using it.

At some point people putting together workstations may have to consider whether Thunderbolt offers them an advantage over USB3.

I think the ensuing "battles" will be multifaceted.



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Hector berrebi
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:42:43 pm

[Craig Seeman] "
I should add this also relates to Thunderbolt. HP has said they won't be using it."


so what if they said it...? :)

they can say something else tomorrow...

apparently they can even wrap it in USB and call it light peak ...
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20110629/192972/

Hector Berrebi
prePost Consulting


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:11:44 pm

[Hector berrebi] "they can say something else tomorrow..."

As long as they're willing to pay for it.
I can't begin to guess what the full extent of the contractual relationship between Intel and Apple is on this.

Note that Sony is supporting Thunderbolt but will be using a USB3 like connector rather than miniDisplay like connector.

There's a lot of maneuvering going on.



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Hector berrebi
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 3:51:50 am

[Craig Seeman] "Note that Sony is supporting Thunderbolt but will be using a USB3 like connector rather than miniDisplay like connector."

Yup, it was in the second sentence in the post you just replied to. :)

The passion Craig, you probably overlooked it...

BTW, i think that as of 2012 apple will have no exclusivity over TB.

Hector Berrebi
prePost Consulting


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 4:34:31 am

[Hector berrebi] "BTW, i think that as of 2012 apple will have no exclusivity over TB."

They don't. Sony is implementing it. But you know this already. I assume Sony isn't announcing for 2012.
A point is that even if one chooses Windows there are pending complications.
If it's between HP and Mac, some may edge toward Mac if Thunderbolt is important.
It may well open the door for Sony if they can put together a workstation competitive to HPZ series for example.



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Hector berrebi
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:44:17 am

[Craig Seeman] "It may well open the door for Sony if they can put together a workstation competitive to HPZ series for example."

That would be the day... Lol
A Vaio workstation :) optimized for Vegas.

It's hard for me to believe they ever will... And if they ever do, hard to believe it would be anything close to HPZ series.

Hector Berrebi
prePost Consulting


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Greg Burke
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:26:26 pm

Craig, I appreciate your outlook at X-FCP, your hopeful and that’s fine, but apple has made it perfectly clear that there phasing out of the industry, I mean I feel that the goal of the X-FCP designer was to make a program that could eventually go on the ipad. I feel that’s where X-FCP is heading and were the majority of the Developers are working on this as we speak, that would be amazing to do but it would make editing seem like a joke I mean if its so easy why pay me? Right? But I digress. To release a program with such a lack of basic functions is awful. The program itself is neat and has some really great concepts, but we wanted these in FCP7. It’s typical apple “My way or the Highway” attitude. Tomorrow apple could decide that using a mouse on a desktop is no longer “the future” and they would drop all support for mice (just joking of course), But Its what they do, and if they happen to be ever be wrong (god forbid) they just sweep it under a rug and remain quiet. I have 3 upcoming projects and after messing with X-FCP the last 2 weeks, I’ve realized I can’t use it with any of the upcoming gigs, Its not That I won’t use it, I literally can’t use it, it would take longer and hinder my clients patience, and its not because I don’t understand or know the program I’ve been using it non stop since release, It just FAILS at every point on my check list for what I need. I’m not an Amateur by any means, nor am I a Professional editor yet, but one day I’d like to be, SO I’ll learn FCP X in all its gimmicky greatness, But I’m turning to avid and Premier for future High Paid gigs and jobs, Apple really messed up on this one I’m not about to wait around for 5 years to get apple to put in all the missing features to get it on the FCP7 level and I’m not going to put my Faith into 3rd party Developers to fix this either. FCP X in like Putting a V12 in a pinto, it does have a lot of power and ability, but they need to change the body. Just my 2 cents. ☺

I wear many hats.
http://www.gregburkepost.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 8:58:27 pm

[Greg Burke] "Craig, I appreciate your outlook at X-FCP, your hopeful and that’s fine, but apple has made it perfectly clear that there phasing out of the industry,"

I fundamentally disagree with that. They're gone for the moment in some respects but Thunderbolt is a Video Post tool and Apple's history is complete control without reliance on third party software in as many places as possible FCPX will be a Pro tool in a year or two and I expect there will be server related software to go with it.

I don't think Apple is concerned with what people migrate to right now. I think they're looking down the road.

Apple's going to make a mess of a lot of things, deliberately IMHO opinion and people will be revisiting this issue in a year or two.



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Greg Burke
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 9:02:28 pm

[Craig Seeman] "They're gone for the moment in some respects but Thunderbolt is a Video Post tool "

PCs survived without FireWire, They'll survive without Thunderbolt.

I wear many hats.
http://www.gregburkepost.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 10:23:38 pm

Actually firewire was key to Final Cut Pro's initial success and we see where that went as far as Mac in the Post workflow.

I think we'll be seeing something down the road with Lion, FCPX, Thunderbolt and Apple server type integration. This is not going to happen for some time but it looks like the pieces are being put in place and the development will become a bit more apparent in a year or so. Apple always works towards it's own ecosystem. They work towards technical hardware software dependancies to get that to work and drive sales along multiple products by doing that. Again I don't know if they'll succeed but it looks like that's what they're going to attempt.



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Jeff Bernstein
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:30:04 am

[Craig Seeman] " Thunderbolt is a Video Post tool"

Actually, it is not. It is a serialized version of PCI Express limited, currently, to just 4 lanes. If I were a betting man, I would bet that Apple is going to remove PCI Express slots from the next Mac Pro because Apple believes that everyone wants to throw out their investments in PCI Express cards and no one needs all that bandwidth that is currently in their Mac Pros.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:53:18 am

It's fast enough for Video I/O and throughput for storage.

What 8, 16 (or 32 lane for that mater) cards will suffer? GPU is still going to be built in in 16 lane slot. Granted adding a second one might be an issue with only 4 lane Thunderbolt

Currently Mac Pro has one 16 lane slot with GPU, an empty 16 lane slot (I believe which can allow for a second GPU) and two more 4 lane slots.



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Gary Pollard
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 10:33:33 pm

I just suspect that for many this is a question of "Your husband may be abusing you now, but he'll bring you flowers in the future", or '...he'll find a way to make your future spouse impotent".

For those who have made the decision to be half way out the door, neither of these is likely to make them feel better about that person.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 6, 2011 at 11:14:18 pm

[Gary Pollard] "For those who have made the decision to be half way out the door, neither of these is likely to make them feel better about that person."

Very true but sometimes power wins over nice. The relationship Apple has with Adobe over Flash plays out as hostile and yet Adobe hasn't abandoned the Mac over it.



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Gary Pollard
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 12:12:24 am

[Craig Seeman] "The relationship Apple has with Adobe over Flash plays out as hostile and yet Adobe hasn't abandoned the Mac over it."

I'm still curious as to why some Adobe products have less functionality on the Mac. Fewer transitions in Premiere Pro, and the inability to import from Elements (when you can on Windows) being two examples.

Adobe and Apple clearly still have a pretty touchy relationship. People are going to have to decide, particularly in the light of recent developments, who has their best interests at heart.

I've defended FCP X here, but I simply can't bring myself to throw all my eggs into the Apple basket.

For example, now I have the choice of getting Adobe Production Suite for Apple or Windows. Although I have Premiere alone on the Mac, it still plays nicer with Windows, and my long term views of how Apple regards me as a user is also going to have to be a factor. I think it's the same for many here.

As I said, your idea of where Apple is going may be wrong or right, but if right, it's as much a reason to leave as to stay.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Craig Seeman
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 12:27:57 am

[Gary Pollard] "For example, now I have the choice of getting Adobe Production Suite for Apple or Windows. Although I have Premiere alone on the Mac, it still plays nicer with Windows, and my long term views of how Apple regards me as a user is also going to have to be a factor. I think it's the same for many here.

As I said, your idea of where Apple is going may be wrong or right, but if right, it's as much a reason to leave as to stay."


There are lots of variables though. Lion on Apple's side. The upcoming Windows 8 on Microsoft. We can see where Apple is going with AV Foundation with respect to Lion. I'm not sure what's happening with any underlying media technology on Windows. We can speculate where Quicktime might go on Windows of course. Then there's Media Composer's move to 64 bits up ahead as well.



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Dennis Radeke
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 10:53:12 am

[Craig Seeman] "That Avid and Adobe may also have to go through a major change if they need to support it.
That Apple, which controls Quicktime, may muck with that in ways that impact Avid and Adobe negatively."


[Jeff Bernstein] "As one who helped create QuickTime in the early years, I can tell you that Avid and Adobe have well-placed fears of entrusting the core of their products to Apple."

These are good points and would be considerations if Adobe were dependent on Quicktime. Wherever possible we work around the QT libraries, primarily because of it's 32-bit limitation. This is how we achieved good performance with Canon 5Dmk2 .MOV files. The two key codecs that I think of where we have to use the QT libraries are ProRes and DNxHD. In the case of the former, ProRes seems pretty optimized for QT and so we play and edit it just as well as FCP 7. For DNxHD, the editing experience is okay but definitely not great.

The point is that Adobe, like any company doing business, wants to shield itself from future problems. As many have pointed out on this thread, Apple's practices can be harmful sometimes to other companies. Therefore, we do as much as we can to limit the dependencies of Adobe and our customers.

Moving forward to anticipate your next question - No, I do not know what Adobe will do with AV Foundation. ;-) Did I guess right? I will say that we have been working with Lion for a long time.


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Hector berrebi
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 3:00:49 pm

[Dennis Radeke] " For DNxHD, the editing experience is okay but definitely not great."

ok Dennis... no questions on AVF, (can we start calling it that?)

but Avid's DNX is actually optimized for MXF, is it so complicated for premiere to properly support it? (it does somehow, but less than satisfactory)

i thought MXF was rather open...
RED's free REDCINE-X does a great job writing them for one... and there are many other tools around to read and write these files..

for a short wonderful time it was even possible to open Avid's AAF in premiere and link to media... now its broken... last time i checked it worked only for DV files...

i know this lost connection to original thread... sorry :)

hector

Hector Berrebi
prePost Consulting


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Jeff Bernstein
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 9:15:47 pm

The problem with MXF is that is was too open and did not have a tighter spec. As a result, you see different implementations of MXF which are not compatible. Prime example would be how Sony and Panasonic did theirs. In addition, since typical MXF implementations break up files between different components such as audio and video and metadata, it becomes are royal mess to manage your files in a file-based workflow.

Unfortunately, MXF did not become the 'open standard' answer to the need to replace to supplement QuickTime.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 8, 2011 at 12:50:46 am

[Hector berrebi] "but Avid's DNX is actually optimized for MXF, is it so complicated for premiere to properly support it? (it does somehow, but less than satisfactory)"

Indeed you're right. Avid's DNX is simply a licensing issue and therein lies the challenge. Our support of it exists through Avid's Quicktime Avid Codecs LE pack which supports QT wrapped Avid files but not the native MXF.

[Hector berrebi] "i thought MXF was rather open...
RED's free REDCINE-X does a great job writing them for one... and there are many other tools around to read and write these files.."


You could say that MXF suffers from being TOO open. I actually sit on the AMWA board (Advanced Media Workgroup Association). This is what the AAF became (long story). Essentially, the mission of AMWA is to create useful specifications by putting constraints on what you put in your MXF.

[Hector berrebi] "for a short wonderful time it was even possible to open Avid's AAF in premiere and link to media... now its broken... last time i checked it worked only for DV files..."

This is true. When Avid introduced AMA to Media Composer 5.0, it broke our workflow. We've been evaluating the limitations and ways to provide a robust interchange between Avid and Adobe much as we have between FCP (XML) and Adobe.

Since we're talking MXF, Adobe outputs Panasonic P2 flavor MXF with associated file structure and Sony OP1a MXF. For editing, we support P2/AVC-Intra, XDCAM-HD.

Hope this helps.
Dennis


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Tom Babauta
Re: Before you get too comfy in your switch . . . .
on Jul 7, 2011 at 6:20:49 pm

Wow. You can cut through the fan-boyism in this room with a box cutter.

It's just like those May 21 doomsday followers. And when the end didn't come on the said date, they still blindly believed the same guy when he said that the end will come in October.



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