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Steve Connor
New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 12, 2016 at 6:54:12 pm

At least that's how long it took a certain company to catch up

https://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-artpc-pulse/preview/


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David Roth Weiss
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 12, 2016 at 7:36:16 pm

I love the design, it's about as good as this:

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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David Mathis
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 12, 2016 at 7:37:42 pm

Looks like a high tech outdoor speaker. By the way, what is with that blue light? Perhaps it could be featured in a K Mart commercial?


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Oliver Peters
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 13, 2016 at 12:08:59 am

But will it burst into flames?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 13, 2016 at 2:56:59 am

Yes...and the color of the flames can be changed via an iPhone app.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 13, 2016 at 3:49:08 am

I just bought a trash can MacPro for a new series and I must say that there is absolutely nothing about the cylindrical design that is helpful in anyway. Too small to reach the "power on" button when placed on the floor, impossible to mount in a rack, a vipers nest of wires sticking out when placed on a desktop. It's good to see Samsung following up it's disastrous handling of the Note by copycatting one of the worst designs in modern technology. Hey maybe Samsung can get theirs to blow up the graphics card as well.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Claude Lyneis
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 13, 2016 at 6:22:21 am

Herb, tell us how you really feel.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 13, 2016 at 11:48:01 am

[Claude Lyneis] "Herb, tell us how you really feel."

AS long as your asking ...

The trash can's performance can't be faulted. I bought a 6 core, 32 gig, D700 on ebay and while I haven't done any direct tests against my beefed up tower, it feels a bit faster. Plus Thunderbolt raids are cheaper and easier to build without need for controller cards. I intend to do some rendering tests soon and will post my results.

Now if only I could rip out the guts and put the whole thing in a tower case with a DVD burner and add some PCIe slots, I'd be a happy guy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 13, 2016 at 12:06:37 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I just bought a trash can MacPro for a new series"

I should also add that the Ebay nMpro cost about 2K more than a beefed up used tower at this point, but the savings on the Raid side, due to Thunderbolt, pretty much balanced that out. If I didn't need the raid, I would have bought another cheese grater. I would have gladly paid an additional 1-2K for a nMpro in a tower config with PCIe slots - but Apple wasn't offering.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Mark Suszko
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 13, 2016 at 3:57:40 pm

There is an inexpensive ring-shaped adapter that lets you mount the "trashcan" on it's side, in a standard equipment rack, if you're so inclined.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 14, 2016 at 4:06:39 am

[Mark Suszko] "There is an inexpensive ring-shaped adapter that lets you mount the "trashcan" on it's side, in a standard equipment rack, if you're so inclined."

It might almost be worth the $500 to get it off my desk, but for now I think I'll just leave it there with a label on it with a quote from that high-water mark of American cinema "The Towering Inferno" --

"I don't know. Maybe they just oughta leave it the way it is. Kind of a shrine to all the bullshit in the world."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bob Woodhead
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 15, 2016 at 11:41:27 am

And you do have to give props to the thermal design... I think that's the real brilliance in the Trashcan.

"Constituo, ergo sum"

Bob Woodhead / Atlanta
CMX-Quantel-Avid-Premiere-FCPX-AFX-Crayola
"What a long strange trip it's been...."


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Gary Huff
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 3:35:36 am

[Bob Woodhead] "And you do have to give props to the thermal design"

The thermal design that keeps burning up the graphics cards?


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Bill Davis
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 4:03:41 am

I haven't heard of anyone burning up any machines en masse except that one instance of David Fincher's team working on Gone Girl - and IIRC they had Adobe staff involved to "optimize" the Premiere Pro software performance - so who knows what they were doing under the hood.

Since those stories, I haven't read of anyone running NLE operations on ANY software complaining of on-going "burn up" situations on MacPros.

Or have I missed something?

If not, it's a bit of a stretch to blame a hardware design for a problem that may not actually be happening.

Are there legions of burnt up machines out there that nobody's talking about?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 4:47:42 am

[Bill Davis] "I haven't heard of anyone burning up any machines en masse except that one instance of David Fincher's team working on Gone Girl - and IIRC they had Adobe staff involved to "optimize" the Premiere Pro software performance - so who knows what they were doing under the hood."

They lost FIVE of these tubes on DEADPOOL. Again, Adobe Premiere Pro.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 1:49:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "they had Adobe staff involved to "optimize" the Premiere Pro software performance - so who knows what they were doing under the hood."

Yes, what were those nefarious Adobians doing "under the hood?" - ritual sacrifice of little bunny rabbits, playing majang with marked tiles, smoking ether infused crack - Ooooooooh - so spooky and mysterious. And best of all they were -- wait for it-- "optomizing" and probably without a license. Damn those Adobians, no wonder the poor little trash can melted down, what chance did it have against all that evil.

As a public service and as a recent parent of my own cute little trash can I offer myself up to those Adobi-ites who are practicing ritualized under-the-hood un-licensed optomizing - Take Me. Take me and set all the rest of those little black tubes free. (And while your at it fix the stupid inability to delete multiple transitions.) TAKE MEEEEeeeeeee!

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Alan Okey
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 6:59:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "Are there legions of burnt up machines out there that nobody's talking about?"

Take a stroll over to Lift Gamma Gain's Resolve forum and ask people there what they think of the 2013 Mac Pro...


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Darren Roark
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 4:38:08 am

[Gary Huff] "The thermal design that keeps burning up the graphics cards?"

Using FCP X I've transcoded around 400 hours of Red footage with my 'trashcan'.

No problems.

Must be some 3rd party machinations.


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 10:09:40 am

[Bill Davis] " haven't heard of anyone burning up any machines en masse except that one instance of David Fincher's team working on Gone Girl - and IIRC they had Adobe staff involved to "optimize" the Premiere Pro software performance - so who knows what they were doing under the hood."

[Shane Ross] "They lost FIVE of these tubes on DEADPOOL. Again, Adobe Premiere Pro."

[Darren Roark] "Using FCP X I've transcoded around 400 hours of Red footage with my 'trashcan'. No problems. Must be some 3rd party machinations."

Good hardware design means preventing software from ever causing physical damage. But don't take my word for it (and you obviously don't, since we've had this exact discussion before); listen to a hardware engineer:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/88655#88853


[Bill Davis] "Are there legions of burnt up machines out there that nobody's talking about?"

Maybe not, but there are legions of glitchy renders that seem to be mitigated by external cool or running the fan at full-tilt. Go to any Resolve forum and search for D700. Here's a typical example:
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=51944

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 6:29:56 pm

Fair enough.

It's just puzzling to me because I'm fairly to VERY active on lots of FCP X boards internationally.

And melt down problems with X are simply not a thing you read about AT ALL in the FCP X world.

If it was an actual hardware design issue - and not some specific interaction between the hardware and the only program experiencing the issues - I'd be more interested.

Basically, if X can run "full out" on a trashcan without issues - and Premiere Pro can run fine as well under "normal circumstances" it just seems clear to me that the issue back then was them wasn't hardware, but hardware/software interaction in a specific edge-case use.

Seems quite simple to me, but maybe I'm being unreasonable.

As I often say. I'm not a hardware guy. Just someone grateful that with a couple hundred delivered X programs under my belt, I haven't had a single project over the past few years (even those with significant motion graphics, multi-cam and higher raster content) that have had problems outside those I've caused for myself via momentary personal stupidity.

Oh well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 6:43:30 pm

Since there has been an official Apple recall/repair solution in place, there clearly is some level of hardware issue, at least related to GPU-caused render corruption and system lock-up.

https://9to5mac.com/2016/02/06/apple-mac-pro-repair-program-graphics-video/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 8:35:02 pm

From their published recall limitations - (machines shipped during 3 specific months ONLY) seems to me that was a specific batch of cards in the life cycle of a product sold since Dec 2013.

Not a particularly strong case, IMO, for in arguing that the machine has "known problems."

Seems to me they temporarily got a bad batch of parts - and recalled the problem machines to fix it.

Just saying'

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 1:21:50 am

[Bill Davis] "From their published recall limitations - (machines shipped during 3 specific months ONLY) seems to me that was a specific batch of cards in the life cycle of a product sold since Dec 2013.

Not a particularly strong case, IMO, for in arguing that the machine has "known problems."

Seems to me they temporarily got a bad batch of parts - and recalled the problem machines to fix it."


The melt downs vs the bad renders I think are separate problems. I remember a number of Resolve users reporting that if that they booted their nMPs into Windows and ran Resolve they didn't get the same problem as if they were running Resolve under OS X. IMO this points to a driver/software/firmware issue on the OS X side.


[Darren Roark] "Every MacBook Pro I've had since 2006 the GPU has fried at least once. My two cheese graters both had the GPU die, the trashcan is the only one I haven't been able to kill. I have been having freezing issues since installing Sierra however.
"


GPU centric-problems seem to be common issues with Macs. Three of the five Mac's I've owned over the last decade have had GPU related problems.


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Darren Roark
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 9:23:53 pm

Strange that the chips in question for the recall were made in spring of 2015.

Every MacBook Pro I've had since 2006 the GPU has fried at least once. My two cheese graters both had the GPU die, the trashcan is the only one I haven't been able to kill. I have been having freezing issues since installing Sierra however.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 11:38:14 pm

Darren,

Trust me, I'm certainly no Apple fanboy, and even more so, I'm not at all a fan of the trashcan MacPro, however, I will say that you my friend have had some really bad luck. In fact, I've never heard of any one person having as many catastrophic hardware failures as you've listed above with Apple computers. While nothing surprises me any longer about Apple (they won't fool me ever again), I just have to say that your number was up for some reason, so rather than blaming Apple in your case, you may want to have your karma evaluated, because you have beat the odds in a negative sense. I would not recommend any trips to Vegas or Monte Carlo until you get this karma thing sorted out, and, if you've been considering scaling Everest any time soon, you might want to reconsider.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Darren Roark
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 12:33:06 am

[David Roth Weiss] "I've never heard of any one person having as many catastrophic hardware failures as you've listed above with Apple computers. "

Funny story, the models I had for MacBook Pros:

The late 2006, killed it by using it too much.

The 2006 Mac Pro GPU - recall.

The 2009 Mac Pro GPU - fried, AppleCare took care of it.

The 2011 Thunderbolt model MBP, recall still in effect.

Then I bought the 2012 Retina, you guessed it, recall. This one is still my current portable machine.

I've only paid $300 on the flat rate repair in total which was for the 2006 MBP so that's pretty lucky.

[David Roth Weiss] "if you've been considering scaling Everest any time soon, you might want to reconsider."

Not a chance in hell.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 1:13:42 am

I'm with you brother Darren, and I'm not going anywhere near a parachute or any open door on any aircraft in flight (unless it's a camera copter).

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Joe Marler
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 10:04:34 pm

Note that recall was for a specific defective batch of AMD GPU cards, manufactured from February 8, 2015 to April 11, 2015. The repair process consists of replacing these cards, not redesigning the nMP cooling system.

If it were an inherent thermal design problem OR a problem with Premiere or any other software, the nMPs which failed in a specific heavy workload would keep burning up after the GPUs were replaced, repetitively and without end. Deadpool would be the last feature film that could be edited on a nMP.

Just because the reported failures happened on Premiere or Resolve does not mean it's a software problem. Different software exercises different load paths. In general it is the hardware's responsibility to handle this, no matter what the software does. This is especially so with workstation-class hardware.


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Oliver Peters
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 11:31:52 pm

[Joe Marler] "Deadpool would be the last feature film that could be edited on a nMP. "

Why do you say that? Do you mean because of the timeframe or something else?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Joe Marler
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 11:06:44 am

[Oliver Peters] "[Joe Marler] "Deadpool would be the last feature film that could be edited on a nMP. "

Why do you say that? Do you mean because of the timeframe or something else?"


I should have said last feature film of that type which required those compute resources. My point was post production is constantly expanding and pushing the limit. If the nMP hardware was somehow fundamentally flawed regarding thermal management in high-end workloads, this would imply that Deadpool's workload is the end of the line -- they reached the limit and nMPs will just burn out like overloaded fuses at that load factor -- no matter how many GPUs are replaced.

In fact it is unlikely that the nMP thermal design or Premiere's use of the hardware is flawed. It was more likely just a bad batch of GPU cards. If it was something deeper, the nMPs would keep burning out under that workload or any future post-production workload of similar type.

The nMP is widely used in many industries. Surely (after three years) if unsafe thermal margins existed at high workloads OR if some software "no man's land" existed where an app could burn it up, we would know that.


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Oliver Peters
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 3:06:12 pm

[Joe Marler] "I should have said last feature film of that type which required those compute resources. ...
In fact it is unlikely that the nMP thermal design or Premiere's use of the hardware is flawed....
The nMP is widely used in many industries. Surely (after three years) if unsafe thermal margins existed at high workloads OR if some software "no man's land" existed where an app could burn it up, we would know that."


I think some of the issue might be related to how "Deadpool" was approached. Since Tim Miller is a VFX guy and post was handled in-house, as I remember it, there was interest in working with oversized raw files and live After Effects comps within the timeline. That's a pretty taxing approach on the hardware and software. By comparison, when Vashi (who consulted on "Deadpool") tackled "6 Below", he moved to a PC.

http://vashivisuals.com/6-below-editing-in-6k/

On the other hand, "Gone Girl" and "Hail Caesar" were also Premiere jobs with direct Adobe assistance. Each had pretty solid experiences, though "GG" definitely had some growing pains at the start. Both of these films were cutting on hot-rodded Mac Pro towers (not new MPs) and the Fincher team was partially on PCs for the heavier VFX lifting.

When you compare the workflow on "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot", they took a much easier approach, with 2K ProRes files and external VFX. Consequently they had a solid experience. I don't think any of these experiences necessarily relates to software, but rather the approach to workflow taken in post.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andy Edwards
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 18, 2016 at 10:07:23 pm

A class action lawsuit has been filed as well:

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/345533-apple-c...

We have had a bunch of them fail in our edit bays and even had the GPU cards replaced. Some still have issues after a repair by apple and will need additional parts changed out for a second time. Just watch the activity monitor when you export 4K from Premiere and see it pegged out and over heat. Then take the same project into FCPX and watch the activity monitor only hit half way and no heat issue.

Andy Edwards


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Darren Roark
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 4:58:30 pm

The D700s do not have ECC from what I understand, and the Adobe situation may have been from them running a hacked version of CUDA to run on AMD chips.

I've melted enough things by taking liberties with settings.


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Mark Suszko
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 16, 2016 at 5:53:21 pm

Was it maybe THESE guys that did it?







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John Pale
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 3:44:28 am

[Darren Roark] "The D700s do not have ECC from what I understand, and the Adobe situation may have been from them running a hacked version of CUDA to run on AMD chips.

I've melted enough things by taking liberties with settings."


Thats interesting. Can you provide a link where they mentioned using CUDA on AMD? Thats one hack I have never heard of.


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Darren Roark
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 4:06:40 am

I was just told this was possibly what happened.

http://techfrag.com/2016/03/11/nvidias-cuda-language-can-now-run-on-amd-int...


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 10:32:36 am

[Darren Roark] "The D700s do not have ECC from what I understand"

NVIDIA GTX-series GPUs use non-ECC RAM, and they don't suffer the glitch. Neither does the nMP/D700 running under Windows on Boot Camp. And lots of users worked around the problem by rendering in chunks or installing external cooling. It seems very clear that there's a problem with the Mac driver/D700 hardware combination, and the fact that the problem can be mitigated by reducing render loads or using external fans makes a thermal issue possible, if not likely. The bad run of GPUs is a separate issue.


[Darren Roark] "the Adobe situation may have been from them running a hacked version of CUDA to run on AMD chips. "

This is some serious FUD. Adobe's support for OpenCL goes back to 2012.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Darren Roark
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 10:08:07 pm

[Walter Soyka] "This is some serious FUD. Adobe's support for OpenCL goes back to 2012."

I didn't make it up, just sharing info. I was told by someone at AMD this was the case.

I could borrow a page out of politics of late. "There is something going on with Adobe and those AMD GPUs in those trashcans. I don't know what it is or what Adobe is doing to them but I'd really like to know what's going on with what Adobe is doing to those GPUs. Something isn't right!"

Their CUDA performance with certain tasks is still much higher than their OpenCL implementation. This is doubly true in Resolve.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 10:28:19 pm

And, taking Darren's good point a bit farther, Apple and Nvidia have been at odds with one another for a long, long time at this point, guaranteeing that all of us in the video business get inferior GPUs with inferior drivers and inferior performance when we purchase any new Mac computer. When those GPUs could be replaced with superior Nvidia cards no one complained too much, even if you had to eat brand new ATI/AMD cards. If Apple gave a lick about its customers (that's you guys, folks), they would have figured out a solution to their disagreement Nvidia a long time ago. Anyone care to debate that?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 18, 2016 at 7:21:08 am

[David Roth Weiss] " If Apple gave a lick about its customers (that's you guys, folks), they would have figured out a solution to their disagreement Nvidia a long time ago. Anyone care to debate that?
"


Maybe they have, let's see what cards the new machines have when they are announced ?


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Alan Okey
Re: New Mac Pro "three years ahead of it's time"
on Oct 17, 2016 at 7:03:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Go to any Resolve forum and search for D700."

I made a similar post before seeing yours. Agreed, the D700 Mac Pro seems particularly problematic for Resolve users.


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