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A depressing visit to the Apple Store

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Claude Lyneis
A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 1, 2016 at 5:16:41 pm

I stopped by to see the newly remodeled Apple Store in Emeryville yesterday and while the store looks beautiful and there was a line of customers (presumably waiting to get an iPhone 7), there wasn't much for someone wanting a new Mac for editing. Out of about 25 tables, there was one 3' by 8' table with a 21 inch iMac, a 27 inch imac, a Mac Pro connected to a non working monitor and a mac mini. 27 inch iMac had FCPX and all of 8 GB of memory. There were lots of iPad, mac Books, watch bands etc on the other hand.

They say judge a person (company) by what the do, not what they say. Apple isn't saying much about future Mac's anyway and by the look of this store, desk top computers are hardly even a niche in corporate Apple.

As a long term mac user, I will hope for one more round of new hardware before "real" computers go the way of 5 1/4 floppies, dvd drives, FCP 7 etc.

Claude Lyneis


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 1, 2016 at 5:54:21 pm

As a friend of mine likes to say, "Apple is a bling company now."

Doug D


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Bill Davis
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 1, 2016 at 5:56:02 pm

In other news, your local Jiffy Lube probably isn't the right place to get your Helicopter lubricated.

I'm teasing, of course.

I suspect the Apple Store plan-o-grams (or whatever Apple calls their flooring layouts) will change as products are refreshed and introduced. Right now, Watch 2 and Phone 7 get the prime table space cuz that's what people want to touch in the stores.

Desktop computers and laptops will likely get more play when they're "news."

That's how retail always works.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Steve Connor
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 1, 2016 at 6:56:29 pm

[Bill Davis] "Desktop computers and laptops will likely get more play when they're "news."
"

Hopefully this month :)


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Noah Kadner
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 1, 2016 at 7:08:59 pm

Bright side: less competition for those edit gigs.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops
XinTwo - FCPX Training


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Michael Gissing
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 1, 2016 at 11:45:51 pm

So glad I unhitched from the bling wagon.


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James Culbertson
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 2, 2016 at 1:19:13 am

How many pros buy their Apple products at an Apple Store versus online? My guess would be that they put in an Apple Store what people actually purchase at an Apple Store.

I always buy online because I always custom order, but even if I bought a stock MacPro I would still buy it online. Why waste my time driving to an Apple Store?


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Claude Lyneis
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 2, 2016 at 1:55:40 am

I certainly agree that most macs are bought on line, if Apple continues to develop them, its all good. Still, I like to see for myself, what the 5 k or retina screen looks like. At some level the death of Moore's law has altered the whole computer business. There is not much incentive to buy a new one. Apple is still convincing their customers to buy new iPhone every few years so that is where the money is being made.


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John Rofrano
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 3, 2016 at 12:21:06 pm

[Claude Lyneis] "Still, I like to see for myself, what the 5 k or retina screen looks like."
It is incredibly gorgeous!!! I stopped by my local Apple Store at the Danbury Mall and they had an iMac 5K Retina with FCP X running loaded with 4K footage. The display was unbelievable. Then when you realize that the PREVIEW window was full 4K resolution (because the while display is 5K) it just blew me way. The 4K footage edited effortlessly. If I was working in 4K I would have definitely bought the iMac 5K right then and there.

They also had a new Mac Pro on display connected to a 27" Thunderbolt Display. I'm guessing that your Apple Store is different because I got to see the two thing I stopped by to see (Mac Pro and iMac 5K) and wasn't disappointed at all and it certainly wasn't depressing. I'm still considering buying an iMac 5K based on that trip to the Apple Store. Quite effective.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Oliver Peters
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 2, 2016 at 12:36:17 pm

[James Culbertson] "How many pros buy their Apple products at an Apple Store versus online? My guess would be that they put in an Apple Store what people actually purchase at an Apple Store."

Actually I know quite a few. The Apple Stores all have a business rep and you can set yourself up as a business account. Regardless of what's on the floor, you can place a custom order through the business rep and often get a slight discount. The bigger the item, the greater the discount, though generally not more than 5% in my experience.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 2, 2016 at 11:11:37 pm

this is typical of my BS rant, and it doesn't mean anything really, but it's Sunday evening.
You expect to go to the Apple store in the shopping mall, and expect to see AJA and Blackmagic cards, 8 bay RAID arrays, networking equipment, broadcast monitors, etc? Is a shopping mall. It's a miracle that there is an Apple store in the shopping mall. They sell consumer toys. When you go to an Apple store, do you expect to ask the 25 year old genius "I am looking for the fastest possible renders with Adobe After Effects and Cinema 4D, and possibly Autodesk Smoke - what do you recommend" - are you kidding me. Do you think that even ONE employee in the ENTIRE store has any idea of what these applications are.

And lets just say that they did. Let's just say that MILLIONS of people knew how to use After Effects, Cinema 4D, Davinci Resolve and Autodesk Smoke. Do you think you would have the career that you have now ? Do you think that even the worst FCP-X editor on this forum doesn't know more than EVERY "Apple Genius" in the Apple store ?

And if I am wrong - well, then we will all be unemployed very soon, and I don't care how many awards you have.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Claude Lyneis
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 2, 2016 at 11:44:40 pm

Bob:
The answer to most of your questions is no I don't expect that. I was at the nearby Cineplex and just cruised through the Apple Store, something that used to be fun. Still it left me wondering if I was going to have to learn to edit on an iPhone or go to the dark side and use a Windows machine.
Hopefully, they will bring out an upgraded iMac, a new MacPro and a super duper version of FCPX. Then all my fear and loathing can return to worrying about the presidential election.
Claude


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Oliver Peters
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 3, 2016 at 12:41:59 am

[Claude Lyneis] "Hopefully, they will bring out an upgraded iMac, a new MacPro and a super duper version of FCPX. "

Even if Apple does do that, these tools would still only warrant a minority position within the Apple Store. These simply don't fit what most consumers buy. That tends to top out at a MacBook or bottom-of-the-line iMac.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 3, 2016 at 1:59:20 am

[Oliver Peters] "These simply don't fit what most consumers buy. That tends to top out at a MacBook or bottom-of-the-line iMac."

I agree totally.

But isn't it curious that whether you are a proponent of FCP X or not, it's hard to argue that they are at least trying to advance editing tools and techniques.

Maybe you all see other players doing research-based editorial ideas like the magnetic timeline or Roles as fresh ways to solve real-world editorial challenges (and yes, I know some believe they were solutions to problems perfectly and forever solved 20 years ago) but I still think it's great that at least one team is still investing money into fresh NLE thinking.

Maybe we'all see more on that later this month at the Apple thing in Curpertino.

Hope springs eternal!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 3, 2016 at 2:51:18 am

[Bill Davis] " I still think it's great that at least one team is still investing money into fresh NLE thinking."

How much money they are still investing is the question of the moment.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 3, 2016 at 7:51:39 am

[Bill Davis] "Maybe you all see other players doing research-based editorial ideas like the magnetic timeline or Roles as fresh ways to solve real-world editorial challenges"

You make a good point and it's true that Apple have done this, but I wish they would do it some more! Whatever some may say, FCPX is stagnating at the moment


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Craig Seeman
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 3, 2016 at 4:34:22 pm

[Steve Connor] "FCPX is stagnating at the moment"

This seems to be the modus operandi for Apple in "our market" (depending on how you want to define that).
They make great innovation and then it sits there for a long while with improvements but nothing that's radical new. Arguable this is even being proffered even in their consumer products.

With MacPro, as it is, there's not even interim speed bumps to the CPU or GPUs. If one buys at the beginning of the life cycle one gets at least a somewhat competitive piece of technology. A year, or even two later, not only have the not updated the technology, there's no significant drop in price either.

With FCPX there was some major innovation and, while there's been feature updates, some have been on our wish list for years. Of course a big update is coming (just as one might anticipate with the MacPro) but the pattern is frustrating.



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Bill Davis
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 12:45:37 am

[Craig Seeman] "With FCPX there was some major innovation and, while there's been feature updates, some have been on our wish list for years. Of course a big update is coming (just as one might anticipate with the MacPro) but the pattern is frustrating."

I guess its a "glass half full" or "glass half empty" thing.

I'm using the same FCP X everyone else is, and I just keep delivering project after project and watching my billings grow without a hitch.

So patience, for me, has been remarkably easy.

Basically, what it "isn't" pales in comparison to what it "is."

My two cents.

YMMV.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Bob Woodhead
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 12:57:59 am

It still would be nice to not even have the grounds for this discussion. If Apple were rolling out updates as often as Adobe, we'd wouldn't be talking about stagnant code. We'd be complaining about something else, of course. :D


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James Culbertson
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 2:24:33 am

[Bob Woodhead] "...we wouldn't be talking about stagnant code."

Isn't "stagnant code" a bit of an exaggeration? I'm still making good money very efficiently using FCPX even without the hoped for upgrades.

On the other hand, the only bit of After Effects since the 2014 version that I find myself really wanting is entirely too buggy to use most of the time (realtime playback). So, yes, they are providing upgrades more often, but at the cost of being buggy over multiple revision cycles. I still have to go back to AE 2014 for some things due to the bugginess.


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Herb Sevush
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 2:56:05 am

[James Culbertson] "Isn't "stagnant code" a bit of an exaggeration? I'm still making good money very efficiently using FCPX even without the hoped for upgrades."

And some people are making good money cutting with FCP7. And others are using old versions of Avid so they can still use ScriptSync. Both are situations where "stagnant code" and "still making money" are not mutually exclusive; but that doesn't change the fact that they are examples of "stagnant code." FCPX is not quite in the same category but this mini-thread was based on the following quote from Bill Davis:

" ... whether you are a proponent of FCP X or not, it's hard to argue that they are at least trying to advance editing tools and techniques ... but I still think it's great that at least one team is still investing money into fresh NLE thinking."

The question is whether Apple is STILL putting money, and therefore effort, into innovating with FCPX or are they coasting on the innovations they made five years ago.

Stay tuned.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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John Rofrano
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 11:31:38 am

[Bob Woodhead] " If Apple were rolling out updates as often as Adobe, we'd wouldn't be talking about stagnant code."
They are on two completely different delivery models.

Adobe claims that they had to move to a subscription model so that they could get small changes out quicker. They now feel compelled to ship something every month because they are collecting your money every month.

Apple is on a different release train. They wait until they have enough features to make a big announcement and they don't charge you a penny for the upgrades. I'll take Apple's model over Adobe's model any day of the week.

Like others have said, FCP X is working fine. I'm not "waiting" for anything new so whatever Apple comes up with is icing on an already solid cake that, for me, is still lightyears ahead of track-based NLEs for editing workflow.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Steve Connor
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 2:12:19 pm

[John Rofrano] "They wait until they have enough features to make a big announcement and they don't charge you a penny for the upgrades. "

We're all assuming the upgrades will be free, have Apple said they will?


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John Rofrano
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 6:41:43 pm

[Steve Connor] "We're all assuming the upgrades will be free, have Apple said they will?"
I have not heard them say this. I'm just going by 5 years of historical data. ?

...and if it wasn't I wouldn't complain. (as if 5 upgrades for free wasn't enough?)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Scott Witthaus
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 3:31:31 pm

[John Rofrano] " They now feel compelled to ship something every month because they are collecting your money every month."

Exactly. I just wonder when the inevitable rate increase is going to happen? Who goes first, Avid or Adobe?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Steve Connor
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 7:04:36 am

[Bill Davis] "I guess its a "glass half full" or "glass half empty" thing.

I'm using the same FCP X everyone else is, and I just keep delivering project after project and watching my billings grow without a hitch."


No one is saying it isn't very good as it it stands, no one is saying that you can't make money with it, however you did say

"But isn't it curious that whether you are a proponent of FCP X or not, it's hard to argue that they are at least trying to advance editing tools and techniques."

and the fact is, based on their updates over the last few years, the advances haven't been continuing.


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James Culbertson
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 4:52:06 pm

In the end, what feels stagnant is kind of a personal preference isn't it?

What has Premiere added since CC2014 that substantially improves your editing experience? AVID still feels like I am editing on a 1990s application.

For me, nothing that makes Premiere less stagnant than FCPX. But I personally feel that tracks are much more stagnant than the magnetic timeline. Premiere feels like I am still working in FCP Legacy.

I guess it is good to have a choice of which stagnant application to use.


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Herb Sevush
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 5:33:12 pm

[James Culbertson] "In the end, what feels stagnant is kind of a personal preference isn't it?"

What "feels" stagnant might well be personal but what "is" stagnant is a matter of fact.

[James Culbertson] " AVID still feels like I am editing on a 1990s application."

And for those who won't upgrade it is a 1990s application. Which is fine for some, and why I said "stagnant" and "money making" are not necessarily opposites. Many film editors stayed with upright moviolas for decades past the invention of flatbeds; for them stagnant = proven = safe. Being on the leading edge can be a recipe for bankruptcy.

[James Culbertson] "What has Premiere added since CC2014 that substantially improves your editing experience?"

Morphing transitions, lumetri color engine, automatic music editing, auto scratch track -- I tend to forget what's new with each iteration but there's plenty new, a lot of which helps in the day to day.

[James Culbertson] "But I personally feel that tracks are much more stagnant than the magnetic timeline. Premiere feels like I am still working in FCP Legacy."

Five years ago FCPX came out with a slew of bigtime changes in NLE design. And they followed it up with about 2 years of improvements off that new design. But we are playing the game of "what have you done for me lately" and if you didn't like X 3 years ago, what have they done to improve their proposition since?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Culbertson
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 5:53:08 pm

[Herb Sevush] "What "feels" stagnant might well be personal but what "is" stagnant is a matter of fact."

Herb, how do we resolve what each of us considers to be "facts"?

Most of what folks portray as facts on this discussion board are actually personal opinions and preferences; yours are no different.

I'm merely trying to acknowledge that reality.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 6:30:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] "a lot of which helps in the day to day."

Automatic music editing? Please. How about a title tool upgrade...at least into this century?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Herb Sevush
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 4, 2016 at 6:52:43 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Automatic music editing? Please. How about a title tool upgrade...at least into this century?"

Surprisingly enough the auto-music editing sometimes helps, especially under time constraints.

As for a better title tool - probably at the top of my request list along with saveable presets for transitions just like they now have for effects.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Neumann
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 5, 2016 at 4:41:00 pm

Herb you can save transition presets, but I think it's only with 3rd party ones. Haven't seen any native transitions with more than rudimentary adjustment controls.



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Herb Sevush
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 5, 2016 at 5:10:32 pm

[Paul Neumann] "Haven't seen any native transitions with more than rudimentary adjustment controls."

The PPro "Page Turn" transition default is to a ridiculous direction and since I use about 6 per episode having to manually fidget with it is a minor PITA. It's good to know that third party transitions have presets but it's bad design that you don't have the same ease of control over native transitions that you do over effects.

I have pleaded my case with Adobe but my requests have been unanswered. Or maybe, as is often said about the big guy, maybe they hear me and the answer is no.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David McGavran
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 10, 2016 at 10:27:27 pm

Hi Herb,

We do listen. We basically have transitions written to an older API and transitions written to a newer API. The older ones don't support presets the new ones do. Cross Dissolve is one we support that is written to the new API. Most third party ones are as well. We update them based on need from customers so we have added your voice to the list. Another person above asked about what features we add... We keep wikipedia up to date:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Premiere_Pro

Cheers

Dave

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Director of Engineering, Professional Audio and Video
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Herb Sevush
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 10, 2016 at 11:11:41 pm

[David McGavran] " We basically have transitions written to an older API and transitions written to a newer API. The older ones don't support presets the new ones do. Cross Dissolve is one we support that is written to the new API. Most third party ones are as well. We update them based on need from customers so we have added your voice to the list"

As long as my voice is being listened to ...

There needs to be some keyboard shortcut to highlight the nearest, or next, or previous, transition. Trying to mouse click on a small transition tag when zoomed out on a timeline is frustrating and time wasting. I mutter very bad things about the parentage of Adobe software designers every time I'm forced to zoom in and enlarge a track just so I can click on a transition tag to change the parameters - this is not a good thing, I feel very bad about myself later. And there needs to be a simple way to remove transitions without mouse clicking them one at a time and deleting - transitions need to be treated the same way you treat EFX.

And thanks for listening.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bret Williams
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 13, 2016 at 10:12:20 pm

Surely you can reverse marquee like avid, or use an index like FCP X or something?

_______________________________________________________________________
http://BretFX.com Plugins & Templates for FCP X Editors & Motion Graphics Artists


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Herb Sevush
Re: A depressing visit to the Apple Store
on Oct 14, 2016 at 3:53:03 am

[Bret Williams] "Surely you can reverse marquee like avid, or use an index like FCP X or something?"

Silly and surprising I know, but there is currently no way to delete multiple transitions in Ppro. There is also no way to delete single transitions without clicking on the timeline transition marker with your mouse. Sad but true.

There is an inexpensive controller surface - palletegear - that will allow you to do this with ease - for $200. "Surely if a third party can do this then Adobe can and will fix this oversight before I have to lay out the cash," I think to myself every time a new release comes out. And every time I am wrong.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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