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Tim Maloney
Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 14, 2016 at 8:18:09 am
Last Edited By Tim Maloney on Jun 14, 2016 at 8:32:22 am

From Ars Technica...

"APFS looks to be a major update over Appleā€™s old and creaky HFS+ file system, which has been around in one form or another for decades. It has been the subject of expansions and additions over the years, but HFS+ never approached the extensibility and flexibility of current next-generation file systems. Rather than continuing to bolt stuff onto the old code, we now (finally!) get a new file system that has some truly compelling features."

Does this mean much to to the way Final cut works?

TimMaloney

Tim Maloney
Managing Director
Axis Films Melbourne Australia
tim@axisfilms.com.au


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Oliver Peters
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 14, 2016 at 12:03:45 pm

Probably not. This has to do with drive formatting, so it might affect how libraries write to drives and therefore might introduce some compatibility issues with old and new libraries. It will also affect SANs and other shared operations.

But this is all usual Apple silliness. The "not developed in Cupertino" syndrome. They should simply adopt NTFS and be done with it.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 14, 2016 at 10:12:16 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But this is all usual Apple silliness. The "not developed in Cupertino" syndrome. They should simply adopt NTFS and be done with it."

This is bigger than hard drives. My guess is that APFS is a system that makes sense on phones, watches, music players, cars, and oh, maybe laptops and desktop computers, and further the killer app here is iCloud. That's why we have things like nanosecond timestamping, file-level encryption and snapshots.

But it's certainly also a validation of NTFS's design. Microsoft has offered APFS-like features for years.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Walter Soyka
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 14, 2016 at 10:13:59 pm

Here's the Ars Technica article on APFS:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/06/digging-into-the-dev-documentation-for...

Read the comments on that article for Case Sensitive Filesystems or Not: The Debate. It's Thunderdome.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 15, 2016 at 12:49:26 am

[Walter Soyka] "Read the comments on that article for Case Sensitive Filesystems or Not: The Debate. It's Thunderdome."

My guess is it's a tempest in a teapot. APFS isn't even close to being done. The beta is an Alpha. ya know, like FCP X "release" was a beta. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Tim Wilson
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 15, 2016 at 4:39:49 am

[Charlie Austin] "[Walter Soyka] "Read the comments on that article for Case Sensitive Filesystems or Not: The Debate. It's Thunderdome."

My guess is it's a tempest in a teapot. APFS isn't even close to being done. The beta is an Alpha. ya know, like FCP X "release" was a beta. ;-)"


A tempest in a teapot doesn't mean it's not Thunderdome.

There's also the distance between our version of a teapot and theirs. If you spend a career of 14 hour days writing code, case sensitivity is the exact definition of Thunderdome. That's full contact stuff. Somebody gon get hurt.

To most of us, though, there's not enough tempest in all that to fill a thimble, much less a teapot.

In general, that comment string supports my contention that even at its historical wooliest, I'd only have ranked the rancor here at about 2.4 on a scale of 10.

If you want some real fun, head on over to the Les Paul forum and start telling people you know the real story behind Jimmy Page's Number One. My suggestion is that you should have all the children you're planning to have before you do.

And certainly plenty of broken bleeding teeth to spit out of your mouth after a visit to any number of places at reddit.

What's interesting to me is that Apple really has transitioned WWDC to an actual developers conference. It started off as basically Macworld minus the obeisance to a magazine that hadn't been worth reading since the interregnum. New mice!

We're over here feeling not as much disappointed with this event as ennervated by an unbroken string of such disappointments, stretching back to what turns out to be the last unambiguously ambitious play out of the infinite loop:

(wait for it)

Final Cut Pro X.

I mean, Beats/Apple Music was bold-ish, but it was also desperate because there was no internally- developed plan arriving quickly enough to staunch the bleeding from Apple's music business.

(They also walked straight into Jimmy Iovine's wallet with this. As he said after the sale, the only reason to start that business in the first place was to sell it to Apple. Well played, sir. I think he's a genius, and that Apple is already giddy that they only had to pay $3 billion.)

Otherwise, it's been years of mostly disappointingly iterative almost- news for anyone not a developer, and for them, only a little better than that.

Until this.

If it works right, as I suspect it will, this could be nearly the last time we speak of it. Soon, I'm betting we'll talk about it even less than we talk about NTFS today, because it will work the way that modern file structures SHOULD work, and in other development environments already do.

Maybe this is another case of Apple showing up late because they wanted to get it right. Maybe they're just plain late, but in the meantime, that comment string is mighty entertaining.

And maybe I just enjoy debates. LOL Nah, that ain't it. LOL


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Richard Herd
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 15, 2016 at 9:18:16 pm

They need the COW's five options to view the thread by.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 15, 2016 at 9:18:51 pm

Apple File System will be out spring 2017 for everyone and will be the default file system to use at that point. Apple will offer a migration solution to move a volume from HFS+ to APFS.

A few nice features for us video-folks:

- File Cloning. Duplicated files that are identical take virtually zero extra space. As I understand it the file system handles file changes on byte level so only changes take extra space not necessarily the entire new file.
- Snapshots. Roll-back to any given point in time.
- Per file or complete volume encryption.
- Much smarter handing of volumes and partions than HFS+.
- Very low latency file access. Fast user response and reliable app-respons.
- Very fast headachy indexing. Get file- and folder-info instantly.
- Much better handing of file read / write / over-writes.
- Truly 64-bit / multithreaded.

Basically it brings Apple back on par or possibly past the top-tier file-systems out there that also is far more future proof. HFS+ has solved a lot of the above with add-one such as TimeMachine (sort of ha does snapshots in a terrible way).

It supposed to be built for everything from tiny NAND drives in Apple Watches to multi-TB MacPro RAIDs and high performance PCIe storage.

How it turns out... We will see in about a year! :)


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Michael Gissing
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 15, 2016 at 10:51:34 pm

I hope the software folks at Macdrive can also write software so PCs can read write this format. I don't understand why pre existing formats like ext4 weren't adopted so a tiny bit of compatibility to the real world wasn't attempted ... but Apple???


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Walter Soyka
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 16, 2016 at 3:43:01 pm

[Michael Gissing] "I don't understand why pre existing formats like ext4 weren't adopted so a tiny bit of compatibility to the real world wasn't attempted ... but Apple???"

I am sure Apple has a plan here. They've designed a filesystem that includes the capabilities they need for future user-facing features across their ecosystem.

Why would compatibility be one of the things they need? Most users will be sharing files via iCloud -- if they think about an outdated concept like "files" at all. They will not be plugging in hard drives to PCs.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Erik Lindahl
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 16, 2016 at 4:41:45 pm

I think it's two sided but primarily Apple wants control. Be it they make things better or not. But with the control comes options. A goal, as I understand it, with APFS is to make it scalable from the get-go instead of the "add-hoc" solutions Apple has been forced to use with HFS+. This would in the future mean super feature X might come 2025 but in theory the APFS from that point should work fine to at least read from ANY APFS-compatible device.

It's also the whole scalable thing from the 512MB ARM-based Watch to the multi-terrabyte, super powerful Xeon machine they want to bake into "one modell that fits all". I could imagine most filesystems today aren't really built for that.

Encryption is also quite unique to APFS that it can be container, volume or file based - on the file system level. Things like "FileVault" in OSX are simply "add-ons" to HFS+, it's not actually part of the filesystem. You will also get things like a true "sparse" filesystem and a true atomic filesystem.

If it's better than something like ZFS it's hard to say. I also hope Apple is open in terms of letting others work with the filesystem so Apple devices don't become even more islands than they tend to be already.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 3:30:50 am

[Walter Soyka] "Why would compatibility be one of the things they need? Most users will be sharing files via iCloud -- if they think about an outdated concept like "files" at all. They will not be plugging in hard drives to PCs."

Perhaps in my archaic world where jobs are transfered by hard drive almost every day because no cloud based system is and can be fast enough to allow me to transfer and play 4k files full res in real time to grade and finish.

File transfer via hard drives is absolutely the only way any hi res work flow for me and many others can operate. Cloud and fast internet access will not in the conceivable future keep up with required bandwidth for me. I sometimes wish it was but even for audio it doesn't have that ability. Drive compatability across platforms cannot be dismissed for many years. the big question is why in this day and age do we not have a cross platform drive format that works?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 3:22:32 pm

[Michael Gissing] "File transfer via hard drives is absolutely the only way any hi res work flow for me and many others can operate."

I get that. That's me, too. I spoke above in hyperbole, but I do believe that our use case is not high on the APFS priority list.


[Michael Gissing] "Drive compatability across platforms cannot be dismissed for many years. the big question is why in this day and age do we not have a cross platform drive format that works?"

Does exFAT not work for you?

I probably do the same thing you do -- MacDrive on my PCs (thanks, Jeff!) and Tuxera-NTFS on my Macs.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 4:19:07 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Does exFAT not work for you?"

I've found ExFAT to be a bit unreliable. It works well until it doesn't. I was on a job recently were one brand of drives worked cross-platform and another only on the PCs (editors had Macs, client had PCs). All were ExFAT.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Darren Roark
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 4:54:37 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I've found ExFAT to be a bit unreliable. "

My understanding is that format was to make flash drives and cards cross platform compatible, that it wasn't meant to be used on hard drives.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 6:17:14 pm

[Darren Roark] "My understanding is that format was to make flash drives and cards cross platform compatible, that it wasn't meant to be used on hard drives."

Hmm... Well, if that's the case, I don't think anyone is aware of it.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 6:22:48 pm

[Oliver Peters] " I don't think anyone is aware of it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT True. Also MS has a bunch of Patents on it.

On a related subject (why not just standardize on NTFS?) We have this... "Like NTFS and HFS+, exFAT is a proprietary file system. Microsoft asserts that exFAT is covered by US Patent 8583708,[6] awarded on November 27, 2013"

Maybe Apple will follow through and open up APfs?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 6:31:04 pm

[Charlie Austin] "True. Also MS has a bunch of Patents on it. "

However, folks like BMD are using it for their SSDs on the HyperDecks.

[Charlie Austin] "Maybe Apple will follow through and open up APfs?"

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 6:38:01 pm

[Oliver Peters] "However, folks like BMD are using it for their SSDs on the HyperDecks."

Of course, lot's of vendors use it. But, if you read the article, it's not exactly an open "standard"

[Oliver Peters] "Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! "

Yeah, I know, cats dogs etc....

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Darren Roark
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 6:42:23 pm

[Oliver Peters] "However, folks like BMD are using it for their SSDs on the HyperDecks."

Exactly, in BMD devices the SSD drives are being used as flash drives.

It's a great lean data capturing bridge format file system, it wasn't meant for editing video.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/06/review-is-microsofts-...


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Shawn Miller
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 7:35:35 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Charlie Austin] "Maybe Apple will follow through and open up APfs?"

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!"


You stole my reply! :-)



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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 7:42:23 pm

[Shawn Miller] "[Oliver Peters] "[Charlie Austin] "Maybe Apple will follow through and open up APfs?"

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!"

You stole my reply! :-)
"


Hey, it'll be at least as open as all the others, which is to say, not open. :-) Oh, except OpenZFS right? Lets all use that! I'll call Apple, you guys call MS. What could possibly go wrong?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 8:05:20 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Hey, it'll be at least as open as all the others, which is to say, not open. :-) Oh, except OpenZFS right? Lets all use that! I'll call Apple, you guys call MS. What could possibly go wrong?"

Yeah... I think Apple is a bit less interested in cross-platform compatibility than Microsoft though. :-)



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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 8:09:42 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Yeah... I think Apple is a bit less interested in cross-platform compatibility than Microsoft though. :-)"

Well, I think all the OS vendors are interested in cross-platform compatibility, at least to the extent where by providing it they enable you to stay mainly on their platform. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 8:35:43 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Shawn Miller] "Yeah... I think Apple is a bit less interested in cross-platform compatibility than Microsoft though. :-)"

Well, I think all the OS vendors are interested in cross-platform compatibility, at least to the extent where by providing it they enable you to stay mainly on their platform. ;-)"


You're right - now, I'm just going to boot into my OSX partition and fire up FCPX on my HP workstation... oh, wait. :-P



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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 8:42:04 pm

[Shawn Miller] "You're right - now, I'm just going to boot into my OSX partition and fire up FCPX on my HP workstation... oh, wait. :-P"

You win, FCP X will not run in Windows without VMware or some such voodoo. I dunno if even that'll work.

But, uh, weren't we talking about file systems? ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 9:57:01 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Shawn Miller] "You're right - now, I'm just going to boot into my OSX partition and fire up FCPX on my HP workstation... oh, wait. :-P"

You win, FCP X will not run in Windows without VMware or some such voodoo. I dunno if even that'll work."


Someone much smarter than me (not hard to find BTW) would have to answer that question. Although, I was mostly eluding to the fact that Apple doesn't license OSX... subtly making my case that they are less interested in cross platform compatibility than Microsoft... which obviously licenses Windows to Apple. :-)


[Charlie Austin]"But, uh, weren't we talking about file systems? ;-)"

Yes, isn't Apple's willingness (or not) to license or openly document APfs fair game? I was just agreeing with Oliver that it probably isn't. :-)



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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 9:58:42 pm

[Shawn Miller] "which obviously licenses Windows to Apple. :-) "

Huh?... :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 10:08:28 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Shawn Miller] "which obviously licenses Windows to Apple. :-) "

Huh?... :-)"


Sorry, that was badly worded (really long week). Microsoft licenses Windows so it can run on a Mac.



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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 10:47:22 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Sorry, that was badly worded (really long week). Microsoft licenses Windows so it can run on a Mac"

gotcha... It's all very convoluted, maybe there should be just one OS that runs everything! :-D

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Walter Soyka
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 7:53:25 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Maybe Apple will follow through and open up APfs?"

[Oliver Peters] "Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! "

If Apple does open-source or at least thoroughly document APFS, they get cross-platform compatibility without having to develop or support it themselves.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Charlie Austin
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 8:03:25 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Jun 17, 2016 at 8:04:47 pm

[Walter Soyka] "If Apple does open-source or at least thoroughly document APFS, they get cross-platform compatibility without having to develop or support it themselves."

[Apple]"Volume Format Specification

A Developer Preview of Apple File System is included in OS X 10.12. The APFS on-disk volume format is pre-release and subject to change. Apple plans to document and publish the APFS volume format when Apple File System is released in 2017.

Open Source

An open source implementation is not available at this time. Apple plans to document and publish the APFS volume format when Apple File System is released in 2017."



Whatever we do though, we should not give them the benefit of the doubt. Because they're mean. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 11:41:31 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Does exFAT not work for you?"

I have not had a single client turn up with an exFAT drive. Most are HFS+ (FCP7 users are still my main source) and a few NTFS. I have the choice with my own footage shot on Blackmagic cameras to use exFAT and shoot DNx but most editors would prefer ProRes so I format the cards HFS+. My Resolve PC mostly has HFS+ drives plugged in.

That's why what Apple does is important to me if the keep their format to themselves. Thank god for Macdrive.


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Tim Maloney
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 16, 2016 at 12:27:20 am

Thanks Erik,

Nice summation of the pathway.

Tim

Tim Maloney
Managing Director
Axis Films Melbourne Australia
tim@axisfilms.com.au


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 16, 2016 at 1:14:11 am

Sounds terrible, Erik. Thanks for all the bad news.








I'm kidding by the way.


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Jeff Jorgensen
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 16, 2016 at 3:15:44 pm

Hi Erik-

We are looking into it!

Jeff Jorgensen
Mediafour


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Michael Gissing
Re: Wwdc intros APfs File system beta
on Jun 17, 2016 at 3:36:09 am

"We are looking into it!
Jeff Jorgensen
Mediafour"

thank goodness. There will be a lot of facilities like mine that run Mac, WIN and Linux for specific software that will need to read "island" formats like Apple and Microsoft specifics.

On that I should point out that even my gigabit network is slower at setting up shares and running fat files over ethernet than simply plugging the drive into a different machine. What hope has cloud and internet?


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