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Tom Sefton
wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 7:05:05 pm

Ummmm.....

It's the first time I've really taken note, but can someone with more experience say whether all major announcements come in the first keynote address, because some updates to messaging, photos, watch and tv wasn't really what I was hoping for....

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Craig Seeman
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 7:29:34 pm

No hardware or technologies that would impact ProApps it would seem.
Siri integration into FCPX might be interesting though.



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Tom Sefton
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 7:47:44 pm

Really very disappointing for pro users then - can't say the ability to add easily searchable emojis or written messages is going to help with work.

I suppose Siri with fcpx could work - asking for automation of imports etc.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 7:54:37 pm

[Tom Sefton] "some updates to messaging, photos, watch and tv wasn't really what I was hoping for...."

WWDC is the Worldwide Developers Conference, and the real audience is ostensibly people who write software that runs in Apple's ecosystem. It's a nice peek at the technologies that will be under the hood in future OS releases, but I don't think we ever expect updates relating to pro hardware (unless it's going to be radically different) or pro apps from this conference.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Lance Moody
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 8:06:40 pm
Last Edited By Lance Moody on Jun 13, 2016 at 8:08:13 pm

Just wanted to add in a big FU to Apple. That Pro computer? Hasn't been updated in 3 years!
And is still the same price as 3 years ago!

I call that getting swindled and pimped. I call that getting tricked by business.

With Final Cut X, Apple invited Pro video users to exit the platform. Some of us have been hanging on but this looks like a sillier decision every day.


Lance



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Tom Sefton
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 8:36:36 pm

Ok - I must have been paying too much attention to Mac rumours and similar sites - seemed like a new MacBook Pro was coming soon.

I thought it was wwdc when the last Mac Pro update came though? Maybe not.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 8:40:33 pm

[Tom Sefton] "I thought it was wwdc when the last Mac Pro update came though? Maybe not."

It was. But did that ever really make sense? What does a refreshed pro computer have to do with developers?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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Tom Sefton
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 8:52:18 pm

I Suppose when you put it like that it doesn't make too much sense really. I think the rumour sites haven't helped and overdue updates make people expect something to come. Is it September when hardware is announced usually then?

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 9:40:10 pm

[Tom Sefton] "I Suppose when you put it like that it doesn't make too much sense really. I think the rumour sites haven't helped and overdue updates make people expect something to come. Is it September when hardware is announced usually then?"

Moore's law has slowed to a crawl and there haven't been significant enough GPU updates until now. I think that's what the holdup was.


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Noah Kadner
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 9:56:46 pm
Last Edited By Noah Kadner on Jun 13, 2016 at 9:58:05 pm

The "Memories" feature folded into iOS was kinda intriguing... basically content aware auto-edit. Wonder if that tech will ever trickle up (or is it down) to FCPX?

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops
XinTwo - FCPX Training


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 10:49:23 pm

In case no one noticed, it appears macOS Sierra will require 2010 machines and newer. This excludes those on 2009 or earlier Mac Pros. I wonder if the next version of X will require Sierra.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 11:09:49 pm

Hi Oliver -
I did NOT see this - can you show the URL that you saw this ? This means 5,1 machines or later(6,1 cylinder). Wow.
I am still freaking out that SMB networking is so screwed up in OS X 10.11.5

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 11:12:10 pm

wow Oliver - you are correct -
if you have a 3,1 2008 or 4,1 2009 Mac Pro - say bye bye !

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/06/psa-macos-sierra-drops-support-for-man...

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 11:46:18 pm

[Bob Zelin] "if you have a 3,1 2008 or 4,1 2009 Mac Pro - say bye bye"

I believe 2009 MacBooks and iMacs are also OK, based on one article I saw.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mitch Ives
Re: wwdc
on Jun 24, 2016 at 6:24:44 pm

[Bob Zelin] "if you have a 3,1 2008 or 4,1 2009 Mac Pro - say bye bye !"

saw that and groaned... the MacPro tower gets left behind now... sure as hell not buying anymore nMP's to replace it...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jimmy Holcomb
Re: wwdc
on Jun 14, 2016 at 1:30:12 am

Does this press release address the SMB problem?

https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/content/documentation/FileMa...


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 11:22:59 pm

[Oliver Peters] "In case no one noticed, it appears macOS Sierra will require 2010 machines and newer. This excludes those on 2009 or earlier Mac Pros. I wonder if the next version of X will require Sierra."

That's unlikely the case. They no longer support the 2009 Mac Pros, but a firmware 'workaround' allows you to make them into a 2010 model.

It should work fine.


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 13, 2016 at 11:45:31 pm

[Darren Roark] " but a firmware 'workaround' allows you to make them into a 2010 model"

What's the workaround?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 14, 2016 at 12:08:13 am

[Oliver Peters] "What's the workaround?"

There is a "3rd party" (hack) firmware installer that allows it to run the faster CPUs and RAM.

There isn't much difference between a 2009 and a 2012 model once they have the same CPUs and RAM installed.


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 14, 2016 at 12:13:26 am

[Darren Roark] "There is a "3rd party" (hack) firmware installer"

Thanks. Yes, I've been poking around and have seen a few links and the general process.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Pale
Re: wwdc
on Jun 14, 2016 at 12:54:27 am

It's an easy firmware install to make a 4,1 into a 5,1. Takes 2 minutes. Yes, it's a hack, but the computers are basically identical, so the 5,1 firmware works fine.

My Mac Pro is a 2009 (4,1) that was a 2.23 GHZ 8 core which is now a 2010 2.93 GHZ 12 core (5,1).
The actual processor upgrade is challenging, but no need to do that if your goal is merely to run macOS Sierra.


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 14, 2016 at 1:01:19 am

I've upgraded several 2009s to the 12c 2.93 chips that make it faster than my maxed out 2013.

No Thunderbolt and very limiting what you can add once two double wide GPUs are installed, but for a seven year old computer, wow.

I still like the 2013 better as it doesn't sound like a wind turbine is in the room with me.


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 14, 2016 at 10:06:31 pm

[Tom Sefton] "I Suppose when you put it like that it doesn't make too much sense really."

Some hardware makes sense to show at a developer conference. You could argue the nMP was to get everyone on board with GPU acceleration.


[Tom Sefton] "Is it September when hardware is announced usually then?"

IMHO, *the* place to announce a new pro computer would be NAB, but of course I am biased. I suspect that we'll see future hardware announcements when they're good and ready to announce, rather than on any kind of predictable schedule.

Computers hardware might just not be that special anymore.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 15, 2016 at 11:06:20 pm

And rubbing some salt in the wound...

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3083827/hardware/apples-old-mac-pro-has-to-g...

:)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 15, 2016 at 11:56:45 pm

I think it's hilarious that he rebuilt the old MacPro.

I don't think Apple needs any help in deciding what parts are available for a computer.

It would make 'more sense' for Apple to license an OS to a hardware partner, but that's not going to happen either.


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David Mathis
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 12:50:57 am

I wish Apple would do that. I would rather build a custom desktop then wait for another expensive trash can model.

Tetris is my favorite video game unless tracks are involved.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 6:49:07 am

[David Mathis] "I wish Apple would do that. I would rather build a custom desktop then wait for another expensive trash can model."

Why would Apple license out its OS to another hardware maker that would most likely undercut Apple on price? That doesn't sound like it would sell more Apple hardware and selling Apple hardware is why keeps the lights on up in Cupertino.


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 12:59:33 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't think Apple needs any help in deciding what parts are available for a computer."

Oh, I don't know. It would be nice if there didn't melt down.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 1:11:35 am

I don't know what you mean, so I googled it.

Didn't find anything except for old MacPros and old MBP batteries (of the expanding variety). Seems like if it was such a wide problem, people would be up in arms about it.

Did yours melt?


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 1:48:21 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Didn't find anything"

The Deadpool guys burnt through about 10 of them. The GPUs had heat problems. I asked AMD about that at NAB and they told me that had no control over how Apple integrated the chips into the Mac Pros.

A couple of references:

http://lfhd.net/2016/02/15/premiere-pro-weapon-of-choice-for-deadpool/

http://jonnyelwyn.co.uk/film-and-video-editing/editing-deadpool-and-hail-ca...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 2:02:38 am

Also:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/02/06/apple-offers-free-repairs-for-201...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 2:19:09 am

"Apple has determined that graphics cards in some late 2013 Mac Pros, manufactured between February 8, 2015 and April 11, 2015, may cause distorted video, no video, system instability, freezing, restarts, shut downs, or may prevent system start up."

Sounds like a relatively small run of bad cards.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 2:15:09 am

Sounds like the problem has been identified and fixed?

"Deadpool" production burning out MacPros seems almost too serendipitous.


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 11:58:03 am

I don't doubt that the Deadpool team heavily stressed those machines because of the large frame sizes they were pushing through. By comparison, the Hail, Caeser! editors had not problems. OTOH, Vashi went with a beefy PC set-up on the current film he's cutting.

AMD implied to me that it was a heat issue due to poor airflow design for the top GPU chips. I have no idea, however, at NAB the custom enclosure folks (who stick a trash can into a box) place an additional fan in front of the intake of the trash can.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 1:37:04 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Sounds like the problem has been identified and fixed?"

Well... there are still apparently ongoing heat issues with D700 that cause glitchy Resolve renders:
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47918

We have had 3 service calls on our 4 nMPs of varying vintage.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 3:18:27 pm

I have no doubts that Apple hardware isn't perfect. What hardware does not have a mtbf, especially ones that generate considerable heat?

In the examples cited, GPUs manufactured in a certain 2 month timeframe (nearly two years after the initial release) had problems that seem to be addressed by Apple.

And the glitchy Resolve renders were from a beta version of resolve, and a few things fixed it including upgrading to the latest OS and software?

I am certainly not absolving Apple of doing weird things. 10 blown out MacPros in a production would be enough to switch to a beefy PC, but the sky is not falling quite yet.

The more interesting part of the Deadpool articles is the reliance of third parties to fix workflow holes, something that Apple gets tremendous sh*t for, for whatever reason. Adobe gets celebrated for having, nay, needing third party workflow helpers.


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 3:28:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The more interesting part of the Deadppol articles is the reliance of third parties to fix workflow holes,"

In an advanced post operation, you will always have third party products involved. NO ONE will ever place all of their eggs in one company's basket. Not to mention user preferences.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 3:50:24 pm

[Oliver Peters] "In an advanced post operation, you will always have third party products involved. "

I don't think your post operation needs to be that "advanced" in order to need third party products. Funny enough, a lot of the workflow holes centered around interchange.


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 4:03:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Funny enough, a lot of the workflow holes centered around interchange"

They always do. But was there something in particular that jumped out at you?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 3:39:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And the glitchy Resolve renders were from a beta version of resolve, and a few things fixed it including upgrading to the latest OS and software?"

That is but one thread of many, going back to January 2014. These render glitches have affected every single version of Resolve since the nMP launched, mostly with D700s, mostly under high load. Lots of those threads suggest that updating software, either OS or the app itself, has "fixed" the problem (and made Safari "snappier!"), yet the next week there will be another post with the same problem on the new version.

The fact that these glitches can be mitigated in some cases by running a third-party app that runs the fan at full tilt says something about the thermal engineering. Obviously that hasn't stopped us from buying these computers when they're the right tool for the job, but it seems Oliver is right to say they melt. Thinner/smaller/quieter is the enemy of cooler, and thus of performance.


[Jeremy Garchow] "The more interesting part of the Deadppol articles is the reliance of third parties to fix workflow holes, something that Apple gets tremendous sh*t for, for whatever reason. Adobe gets celebrated for having, nay, needing third party workflow helpers."

Double standards are twice as good as single ones?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 4:27:57 pm

[Walter Soyka] "That is but one thread of many, going back to January 2014. These render glitches have affected every single version of Resolve since the nMP launched, mostly with D700s, mostly under high load. Lots of those threads suggest that updating software, either OS or the app itself, has "fixed" the problem (and made Safari "snappier!"), yet the next week there will be another post with the same problem on the new version.
"


I have a Blackmagic box that crashes FCPX multiple times a day, but does not crash Resolve. Plugin an AJA box, and everything works very well in FCPX, but does not work in Resolve. It must be the Apple hardware causing all the issues?

Again, I am not denying Apple hardware is not perfect, clearly there are imperfections. Clearly, the new MacPro could look like the old MacPro. I'd be livid if 10 MacPros melted down during my giant VFX spectacular. I'd be even more livid if it melted down during one of my piddly 'VFX' shots that I render daily.


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 4:50:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have a Blackmagic box that crashes FCPX multiple times a day, but does not crash Resolve. Plugin an AJA box, and everything works very well in FCPX, but does not work in Resolve. It must be the Apple hardware causing all the issues?"

In your cases and in mine, I'd consistently blame the hardware/drivers. In your cases, BMD makes the hardware and writes the drivers. In mine, Apple does.

I'm not looking for a gotcha here. The nMP is still a pretty nice machine for its size. But isn't it weird that the Resolve problem is so prevalent on nMP D700 configurations, and so rare with all others?

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/88655 for more.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 5:01:14 pm

[Walter Soyka] "But isn't it weird that the Resolve problem is so prevalent on nMP D700 configurations, and so rare with all others?"

It could well be that Apple underestimated the heat-related design criteria associated with this chip running at full-blast. FWIW - my son runs a mid-tier nMP primarily for Logic Pro X and he's been very happy. No issues to speak of.

It's also quite interesting that many folks find the top-of-the-line iMac a superior machine, even though it shouldn't be on paper.

The ultimate irony is that 6 and 7 year-old machines seem to hold their own, with hardware upgrades. Whoda thunk it?!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 6:10:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "It's also quite interesting that many folks find the top-of-the-line iMac a superior machine, even though it shouldn't be on paper."

It makes sense, though. Different specs matter to different applications. Apple's support for Intel's QuickSync on the i7 helps it stomp the nMP for H.264, for example.


[Oliver Peters] "The ultimate irony is that 6 and 7 year-old machines seem to hold their own, with hardware upgrades. Whoda thunk it?!"

Again, depends on the app. Look at a shiny new HP Z-something or BOXX APEXX-whatever for 3D rendering (CPU) or Flame (OpenGL) -- there's a big performance difference over those 7 years.

Desktop NLEs don't need the relative power they used to. Good throughput to fast-ish storage and a reasonable GPU offers plenty of performance for editorial, and you don't need a workstation for that anymore.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 5:48:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "In your cases and in mine, I'd consistently blame the hardware/drivers. In your cases, BMD makes the hardware and writes the drivers. In mine, Apple does.

I'm not looking for a gotcha here. The nMP is still a pretty nice machine for its size. But isn't it weird that the Resolve problem is so prevalent on nMP D700 configurations, and so rare with all others?

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/88655 for more."


From that thread: https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/88655#88831

I really don't know what to believe other than Apple is replacing a very limited set of what seems to be, defective or near defective AMD boards. That, to me, exemplifies the issue.


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 6:01:07 pm

Userland software should not be able to damage hardware, ever. The hardware itself, or the hardware/driver package, should prevent that by design.

Apple knows what's wrong with its boards better than I do, and I certainly believe them that the specific defect in the recall is limited to that production run. All I'm saying is that there are a number of users pushing this hardware in the real world, seeing reliability issues, who believe that this is not the only defect in the nMP line.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 5:44:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have no doubts that Apple hardware isn't perfect. What hardware does not have a mtbf, especially ones that generate considerable heat?"

I think the rub with the nMP is the target audience is the least likely of Apple's user base to say, "Hey, please nerf this thing to make it as small and quiet as possible because I'm more concerned about that than getting the most out of the dual GPUs you ship placed inside of it." Yet for a machine with two "workstation class GPUs" (Apple's words) the cooling seems to be subpar if you want to use as a workstation for no reason other than aesthetics (I've even read that the GPUs in the nMP are underclocked to try to keep heat in check).

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am certainly not absolving Apple of doing weird things. 10 blown out MacPros in a production would be enough to switch to a beefy PC, but the sky is not falling quite yet."

In other threads I've read the glitchy Resolve renders were solved by running Windows instead of OS X which points to maybe a software/driver issue and instead of hardware. Along the same lines there are a number of people (including myself) that have/had issues in PPro when running certain versions of OS X (10.9.x and 10.10.x IIRC) with Nvidia GPUs with CUDA turned on (the problems go away when using OpenCL). Adobe says it's a driver problem and Nvida says it's an Apple problem. So far the only fix seems to be doing a clean install of OS X 10.11.x (which implies it's an bad driver from Apple that doesn't get replaced unless you do a ground up install of OS X).

There is also the manufacturing defect on all MBP from 2010-2013 (off the top of my head I think that's the range) which eventually bricks them because the GPU fries from improperly applied thermal paste.


Overall I think the negative reaction is the other edge of Apple's "we control it all in order to provide a better user experience" stance. When it works they get high fives for being awesome, when it doesn't work they get all the blame (which usually is compounded by their silence/secrecy). For example, it took years for Apple to admit that the first gen cMP shipped a faulty GPU and by the time they issued a recall most of those faulty GPUs had already failed and been replaced (Apple just seems to have a history of GPU related problems for some reason).


And just to prove I'm not just ragging on Apple, in my personal experience Blackmagic typically over-promises and under-delivers with their hardware. Many times disabling BM Mini Monitor will resolve any 'weirdness' I might have in PPro and a friends BM Ultra Studio Express has new life as a paperweight.


[Jeremy Garchow] "The more interesting part of the Deadpool articles is the reliance of third parties to fix workflow holes, something that Apple gets tremendous sh*t for, for whatever reason. Adobe gets celebrated for having, nay, needing third party workflow helpers."

IMO the difference stems in large part from differing approaches by Apple and Adobe. Adobe, like most of us are used it, applies a lot of first party changes to PPro where as Apple, in a departure from what most of us are used to, relies much more on third parties to expand functionality in X. For example, and since we are already talking about interchange between apps, Wes Plate goes to Adobe and helps create some solid round tripping between PPro, AE and SG. Wes then exists and creates Xsend-Motion which is a $100, third party plugin that gives users functionality similar to the Send to Motion feature that used to exist between FCP and Motion. 3D text is another example. Apple added rather basic functionality to X, but it was third parties that really leveraged it to its full potential.

As someone who is just starting to get into X, I think it's harder to see the full scope of what X can do because you have to be much more in tune with the third party devs than you do for Adobe or Avid (or even FCP Legend). That leads to the feeling that Apple is disinterested in X but, disinterested or not, does it matter in the end as long as someone (first or third party) provides the functionality you are looking for at a reasonable price?


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Charlie Austin
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 11:12:44 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Jun 16, 2016 at 11:24:55 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "That leads to the feeling that Apple is disinterested in X but, disinterested or not, does it matter in the end as long as someone (first or third party) provides the functionality you are looking for at a reasonable price?"

I agree that some people come to that conclusion. In my experience having 3'rd parties provide the non-core functionality is great. They can (and do) push out fixes faster when needed, you can actually reach them with concerns, and they are specialists in whatever function they're providing.

Using Adobe hiring Wes again as an example, he went there, bolted the AD stuff into Pr, and then he left. Now, If something goes wrong with their AAF export, how longs it gonna take to fix it? Will they fix it? Who knows? I can remember waiting a ridiculously long time for issues with EDL's/OMF to get sorted out in FCP 7. Now, I just email the developers and, if it's a real problem and not me screwing something up, it get's fixed pretty quickly.

I think by adding the ability to truly extend the app, it shows that Apple is actually more interested in getting added functions into X. And the functions 3rd parties add to FCP X are pretty extensive. There was a real 3D environment available for FCP X long before 3D text. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 11:37:09 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Now, I just email the developers and, if it's a real problem and not me screwing something up, it get's fixed pretty quickly."

Good point. And I wonder if 3rd parties feel more comfortable developing for X than PPro since they are less likely to have Apple one up them with a first party feature. For example, I'm much less likely to use Colorista II now given what Adobe has done with the Lumetri Color feature inside PPro. Does that make Red Giant less likely to keep developing Colorista for PPro, or is it the normal push and pull where Red Giant will look to up it's game/add some unique functionality to keep Colorista viable? Of course with that being said I was reminded by a dev the other day that FCP Legend had hundreds of 3rd party plugins so I guess even with first party upgrades there is still lots of room for 3rd parties to fill in niches.

For being so developer dependent you'd Apple would loosen up the reigns more on X to 3rd parties even more flexibility. For example, I'm loving the Frame.io panel in PPro but to the best of my layman-level knowledge it's not currently possible to build the same functionality inside of X.

[Charlie Austin] "There was a real 3D environment available for FCP X long before 3D text. ;-)"

I did not realize that. What did Apple's additions of 3D text bring to the table if a 3D environment was already available inside of X?


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Charlie Austin
Re: wwdc
on Jun 16, 2016 at 11:55:02 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Jun 16, 2016 at 11:58:12 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "For being so developer dependent you'd Apple would loosen up the reigns more on X to 3rd parties even more flexibility. For example, I'm loving the Frame.io panel in PPro but to the best of my layman-level knowledge it's not currently possible to build the same functionality inside of X."

Frame.io works pretty seamlessly in X, And they've stated they're working to integrate it even more. I have it, but don't really use it, maybe someone who does will chime in..

[Andrew Kimery] "I did not realize that. What did Apple's additions of 3D text bring to the table if a 3D environment was already available inside of X?"
Honestly I think just the ability to make real 3D titles which, despot the railing against the function, is super useful for what i do. The fact that you can "trick" it into using glyphs as objects to do al sorts of crazy things is a side effect. Honestly, it's way more useful in Motion because you have much more control over cameras. lighting etc. mObject, which is the plugin I was referring to, has been around for quite a while, is much more full featured.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 12:05:56 am

[Charlie Austin] "Frame.io works pretty seamlessly in X, And they've stated they're working to integrate it even more. I have it, but don't really use it, maybe someone who does will chime in.."

The key difference is that Apple won't allow the kind of panel concept the way Adobe does. They do allow the floating HUDs, but somehow that seems to be a loophole that developers have smartly capitalized on. I suspect Apple is not really wild about the aesthetics of that.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 1:44:58 am

[Oliver Peters] "They do allow the floating HUDs, but somehow that seems to be a loophole that developers have smartly capitalized on. I suspect Apple is not really wild about the aesthetics of that."

It's not a "loophole" Oliver, it's a documented feature for FxPlug UI elements.

https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/content/documentation/FinalC...

FCP X does not provide hooks in the host app to actual HUD's (Motion does) but that could change.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 12:09:33 am

[Charlie Austin] "And they've stated they're working to integrate it even more. I have it, but don't really use it, maybe someone who does will chime in..
"


It's nice in PP, it allows you to download and import footage into PP in one go, essentially it's a web browser window inside PP that allows some interaction with the NLE.

The FCP X helper app does what I need it to which is give me a 'set and forget' upload cue.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 4:09:31 pm

[Darren Roark] "It's nice in PP, it allows you to download and import footage into PP in one go, essentially it's a web browser window inside PP that allows some interaction with the NLE.

The FCP X helper app does what I need it to which is give me a 'set and forget' upload cue."


Yeah, it's pretty impressive that almost everything you can do via the Frame.io website you can do in the Frame.io panel in PPro. I think the account management features are they only things in the panel that redirect you back to the site.

Being able to link exported sequences to a timeline in PPro is a great feature and has streamlined and improved my workflow on the two projects I've used it with. I certainly would not find Frame.io as helpful w/o the PPro panel.


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 5:15:29 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Being able to link exported sequences to a timeline in PPro is a great feature and has streamlined and improved my workflow on the two projects I've used it with. I certainly would not find Frame.io as helpful w/o the PPro panel."

Andrew, would you mind expanding on this a bit? How are you using Frame.io in your workflow overall, and what are you doing directly in the panel that has made such a difference?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 6:52:12 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Andrew, would you mind expanding on this a bit? How are you using Frame.io in your workflow overall, and what are you doing directly in the panel that has made such a difference?"

Sure.

For example, say I finish Rough Cut v2 and I want to upload it to Frame.io so my director can make notes. I just go to my Frame.io project w/in the Frame.io panel (assuming I'm not already in it), hit "upload", select "active sequence" (or choose my seq if the one I want to upload is currently the active one) and it will automatically launch Media Encoder, compress my sequence and upload it to Frame.io (all of this progress I can see in the Frame.io panel). Similar functionality I think to what you get with the FCP X helper app.

Once it's uploaded to Frame.io it will show up in my panel (as Darren mentioned the Frame.io panel is pretty much a perfect copy of what you see if you are logged into Frame.io via a web browser). My director will then make comments on Rough Cut v2 in Frame.io (the comments act basically like markers). With the Rough Cut v2 movie open in my Frame.io panel I can click on one of the director's comments and it will snap the playhead in my Rough Cut v2 sequence to the exact same frame. This one way link from the export in Frame.io to the timeline is automatic, but you can manually set it (or turn it off) as well.

You can also upload bins or the entire PPro project file but I haven't tried those out yet.

Frame.io, by itself, is much better than the vimeo/dropbox + email method that I had been using before, and Frame.io in a PPro Panel just doubles down on the good because it puts 99% of Frame.io's functionality directly in my NLE. The team at Frame.io has just done an amazing job with the panel and hopefully they'll be able to bring the same level of functionality to other NLEs too.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 1:28:46 am

[Andrew Kimery] "That leads to the feeling that Apple is disinterested in X but, disinterested or not, does it matter in the end as long as someone (first or third party) provides the functionality you are looking for at a reasonable price?
"


Sure. Every piece of interchange developed by third party depends on one thing, Fcpxml. That one document allows a ton of possibility. With literally the same document I can go to audio, color, vfx, graphics, media management and organization, as well as other nle's and systems via differing interchange formats. In a relatively short time Apple built a brand new language to let other people extend capability to however they see fit. Apple, who 'doesn't care about professional workflows or what professionals need' seems to care somewhat about the outside ecosystem and wants interested developers to interact with FCPX in some fashion.

As far as the hardware, certainly Apple is pushing it. We've talked about thin clients here, Bob Z started a thread about it, and as easy it would be for Apple to assemble the parts needed for a $25,000 MacPro, I just don't see the point. The technology is going to change too fast to keep up, and as well as and for as long as Apple supports their machines, getting in to an endless matrix of user configurable parts wouldn't make for easy reparability or customer service.

I enjoy that I can access the same speed and quality of devices via my laptop or my desktop via Thunderbolt. It has given me more capability in more places, including being able to bring a desktop machine with me if necessary in a light roll away case.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 2:42:30 am

[Jeremy Garchow] " Apple to assemble the parts needed for a $25,000 MacPro, I just don't see the point. The technology is going to change too fast to keep up, and as well as and for as long as Apple supports their machines, getting in to an endless matrix of user configurable parts wouldn't make for easy reparability or customer service. "

Apple, king of desktop revolution, has never played in the realm of highest of high end computers and I don't expect to start now. What would be nice though is if the Mac Pro wasn't full of tech that was cutting edge in 2012 and if it could decisively outperform the computer line that is one tier below it. I don't think that's too much to ask of what's supposed to be a flagship machine. A refresh, or at least a price drop, every 12 months or so would be nice too since the tech is changing fast and the ability to upgrade the newer Macs is much less than what you can do with a cMP.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 2:55:56 am

[Andrew Kimery] "A refresh, or at least a price drop, every 12 months or so would be nice too since the tech is changing fast and the ability to upgrade the newer Macs is much less than what you can do with a cMP."



If I bought a new MacPro and the price dropped in 12 months, why would I ever buy a new MacPro when I could get a year old one for cheaper?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 6:22:57 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "If I bought a new MacPro and the price dropped in 12 months, why would I ever buy a new MacPro when I could get a year old one for cheaper?"

With that line of thinking you'd never buy a computer (or a car, or a TV or an video game system, or a smart phone, etc.,) because it will always be cheaper/faster/better 'tomorrow'. My GF made fun of me for this because for like 5yrs I was aways 'just about to buy' an iPod but never did because I knew if I waited I'd get more bang for my buck. I never did buy an iPod, but the boss got everyone in the office got iPods for Christmas one year so I still managed to end up with one. Work computers are different though because I use them to generate income (as opposed to an iPod which was just frivolous).

People pull the trigger when the system gets features they need/want now. Or it's already been years since their last upgrade and they can't keep waiting 'another year' indefinitely. And Macs hold their resale value very well so even those trying to score a used one won't save a ton of money. It's only been recently that Apple's desktops and laptops have drifted away from a 12 month-ish update cycle. The iDevices get update every year and Apple doesn't seem to have much of a problem selling those.

Why would I pay top dollar for a 2013 nMP in mid-2016? A refresh is imminent or the product line is dead, either way it's still top dollar for old tech. Let's say Apple has moved the nMP to a three year product cycle. Why would anyone buy one in the 'refresh year' when it's never seen a price drop? Now if there had been price drops then that keeps the value proposition of an aging system alive. Do I pay less now for older hardware or do I wait and pay more for upgraded hardware (this is of course assuming the next nMP won't come with a price hike). Or do I save a fair amount of money and just get a 5K iMac. The price/performance on the 2013 nMP right now just doesn't make sense to me.

Of course give the choice I'd much rather have annual refreshes at the same price point than annual price drops on aging hardware.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 3:33:40 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "With that line of thinking you'd never buy a computer (or a car, or a TV or an video game system, or a smart phone, etc.,) because it will always be cheaper/faster/better 'tomorrow'."

If I knew that MacPro prices would drop in a year, I'd just wait. My point is that Apple isn't going to drop the prices, not by a significant amount anyway, in 12 months time.

[Andrew Kimery] "The iDevices get update every year and Apple doesn't seem to have much of a problem selling those."

Except now, you have to subscribe to your phone payment (or outlay a bunch of cash if you want to own it outright) and in return you get a new phone whenever the new model comes out. Is that's what's going to happen to computer hardware?

[Andrew Kimery] "Why would I pay top dollar for a 2013 nMP in mid-2016? A refresh is imminent or the product line is dead, either way it's still top dollar for old tech. Let's say Apple has moved the nMP to a three year product cycle. Why would anyone buy one in the 'refresh year' when it's never seen a price drop? Now if there had been price drops then that keeps the value proposition of an aging system alive. Do I pay less now for older hardware or do I wait and pay more for upgraded hardware (this is of course assuming the next nMP won't come with a price hike). Or do I save a fair amount of money and just get a 5K iMac. The price/performance on the 2013 nMP right now just doesn't make sense to me."

The product line is not dead. They would pull the MacPro if it was dead. Remember when Apple kept the cheesegrater on sale despite it being old technology?

How much would Apple have to drop the price in order to make it relevant? There was a lot of this discussion with the Tubes first came out, about waiting to buy. We didn't wait, and our performance improved, and now, three years later, the computers have more than paid for themselves. My guess is that the next one will be Thunderbolt 3, and Apple is waiting for the parts to make that viable. Remember before the Tube was announced, people though that a MacPro with Thunderbolt was impossible because there was going to be no easy way to separate the data and display operations? I do, and then Apple made dual GPUs standard, got rid of a bunch of clunky display interfaces, standardized around USB3 and Thunderbolt and made using any external devices between any Mac computer a possibility.

Have you regularly used new Macs? Can you honestly say the old cheesegrater is still a better computer?


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 4:10:30 pm

My wild guess as to why the Mac Pro hasn't been updated yet, aside from the fact that Moore's law is slowing rapidly:

- AMD just recently released chips that would be a significant upgrade to the D700s.

- If the nMP was announced in June of 2013 with then previous gen CPUs, it's most likely the fact they were designing the new form factor when those chips were brand new. There will probably be less RnD to work out for an updated model so my guess is it will have the current gen CPUs.

- Most folks who preordered didn't get their hands on them until April 2014, just over two years ago.

- Thunderbolt 3 isn't out yet.

- Apple is hurt that people call it the "Trash Can". They are waiting to release an updated model until people start calling it the "Little Black Keg" dammit!

Calling it the 'trash can' is why we can't have nice things.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 6:38:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If I knew that MacPro prices would drop in a year, I'd just wait. My point is that Apple isn't going to drop the prices, not by a significant amount anyway, in 12 months time. "

But how many years would you wait? 1? 2? 3? But then a new model comes out and the waiting cycle starts all over again. You couldn't wait indefinitely because at some point you have to buy it. That's my point. Better/faster/cheaper is always around the corner yet people (especially when it's business related) have to buy at some point.

I guess where I'm sorta confused is that many products work on 12-18 month product cycles (cars, consumer electronics, camping gear, etc.,) and many people still buy the current model year, as opposed to waiting for a 'year end clearance sale', yet you make it sound like it's an unsustainable business model.

And it's exactly what how Apple worked until recently. 12 month-ish product cycles which meant improvements and/or price drops. It used to be that they'd roll out a new the top end unit w/a spec bump and everything else would get bumped down a notch. Ex. Good, Better, Best 2013 MP and then 2014 comes and and we get a new Best which makes the old Best the new Better, the old Better the new Good and the old Good goes away (and usually ends up in the refurb section for a limited time at a decent discount).


[Jeremy Garchow] "Except now, you have to subscribe to your phone payment (or outlay a bunch of cash if you want to own it outright) and in return you get a new phone whenever the new model comes out. Is that's what's going to happen to computer hardware?"

Isn't laying out cash up front to buy your computer outright always what we've done with computer hardware (assuming you didn't rent/lease it from a VAR)? Yet Apple's recent lag time on laptop and desktop hardware cycles is unusual for them and unheard of in the industry. Hell, in the G4/G5 days it was a 6mo cycle (big upgrades coming every 12 months and a speed bump halfway in between). Not that I expect that to return, but you can't tell me better CPUs and GPUs haven't come out between now and June 2013 when the nMP was announced. Maybe the R&D costs are too high compared to the cMPs, which used more standardized parts, and that's why Apple hasn't given us a speed bumped nMP?

FWIW I think cell phones have largely been decoupled from cellphone plans as all the major carriers have stopped going with the traditional 2yr contract with subsidized phone. The options now seem to be leasing (which lets you trade it it after 12 months for a new model) or buying outright (either all up front or on a zero interested, 24mo installment plan).

[Jeremy Garchow] "Have you regularly used new Macs? Can you honestly say the old cheesegrater is still a better computer?"

Yes (mid range, D500 models) and I expected my socks to be blown off since I usually work on a 2009 MP (upgraded) but my overall impression was 'meh'. I didn't sit there with a stopwatch, but working mainly with camera native HD (multicam) and exporting to H.264 and ProRes the nMP didn't feel appreciable faster like I assumed it would (using PPro FWIW).

On the flip side I was very surprised at how well the 5K iMac performed (it had been a long time since I last used an iMac and it was much more 'consumer' in terms of performance back then).

In mid-2016 a 2009 cMP with non-stock upgrades like SSDs, USB 3, modern GPUs, etc., is still a viable machine for many people. I doubt the 2013 nMP will age as well when 2020 rolls around. In terms of value and longevity I think the cMP is certainly the better computer (and maybe that's a bottom line problem Apple is trying to correct?). If was looking to buy something new today (wait, I am looking to buy something new today ;)) I'd have a hard time picking anything comfortably. I already have the '09 cMP and I might just keep buffing it for a little while longer. The 5K iMac seems like the safest bet, but going with a single, mobile GPU just doesn't sit right with me from a longevity standpoint. The nMP (as I've lamented many times) just isn't a good value at this time (especially with ThB 3 and a new generation of GPUs hopefully finding their way into a new, nMP later this year).

I just think it's disappointing that the in mid-2016 the nMP, an iMac and a cMP can even been mentioned in the same breath. Yes, Apple made dual GPUs standard yet an iMac with a mobile GPU, according to the barefeats tests I've seen, usually beats the D300 model, usually ties the D500 model and only typically loses to the D700 (but even the losing is close enough that it makes you think long and hard and price vs performance).


[Darren Roark] "My wild guess as to why the Mac Pro hasn't been updated yet, aside from the fact that Moore's law is slowing rapidly: "

I agree that Apple is probably waiting for milestone-type changes but there are still ways they could have buffed the nMP as opposed to keeping it stagnant. I mean, I can certainly buy a GPU today that's better than the GPU I bought in 2013. That's the main point of this being a bur under my saddle. If Apple made a user upgradeable machine I would be fine with longer durations between upgrades because I wouldn't be solely dependent on Apple to when it came to improvements. If I am solely dependent on Apple when it comes to improvements then I'm not going to be happy with long durations between upgrades (especially if the price the same for years on end). As users, especially users that are in the market for Apple's flag ship computer, I think we deserve better. Who knows, maybe with ThB 3 the external GPU performance will be at a 'good enough' point that going that route will meet the needs of majority of users that don't need bleeding edge speed.


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 6:44:38 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "And it's exactly what how Apple worked until recently. 12 month-ish product cycles which meant improvements and/or price drops."

Look at it this way. Apple is looking out for your best interests. They know you can't upgrade the nMP much, so they want you to get as many years out of it as possible :)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 10:46:40 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Look at it this way. Apple is looking out for your best interests. They know you can't upgrade the nMP much, so they want you to get as many years out of it as possible :)"

All I want is a bone, just throw me a bone Apple. haha


[Darren Roark] "This is the grey area, the GPUs, RAM, and SSD are considered 'user serviceable' but as of yet there are no 3rd party GPUs or Apple upgrades available.

I'm hoping they offer upgrade kits as they have in the past for the cgMP™. That will say a lot if that happens or not."


I know the GPUs are replaceable, but are they intended to be user upgradeable the same way the RAM and SSD are?

I think Apple's money is in external GPU expansion via ThB even if it's still not yet as fast as a 16x slot. AFAIK the Mac versions of GPUs that fit inside cMP are the same as the Windows versions but w/just different firmware(?) and a price hike which is why you can flash a Windows card and make it a Mac card. Starting w/10.8 (I think) Apple started supporting pretty much every card, but only official Mac versions give you the grey boot up screen. Maybe when the new, nMP come out Apple will offer the new GPUs will be backwards compatible with the 2013 nMP and Apple will offer them as stand alone purchase for those that want to upgrade, but that just seems very unlike Apple these days.

It all depends on the performance hit of course, but I'd bet most people would go with an external solution where they could pick their card vs paying a premium for Apple's custom designed, AMD-based GPUs that only work in a nMP.


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Charlie Austin
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 10:52:09 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe when the new, nMP come out Apple will offer the new GPUs will be backwards compatible with the 2013 nMP and Apple will offer them as stand alone purchase for those that want to upgrade, but that just seems very unlike Apple these days.

It all depends on the performance hit of course, but I'd bet most people would go with an external solution where they could pick their card vs paying a premium for Apple's custom designed, AMD-based GPUs that only work in a nMP."


This may offer a clue.... http://www.macvidcards.com/blog/macos-sierra-had-native-egpu-support

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 11:02:29 pm

[Charlie Austin] "This may offer a clue.... http://www.macvidcards.com/blog/macos-sierra-had-native-egpu-support
"


Gracias, you are a wealth of information Mr. Austin.


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 11:16:58 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Gracias, you are a wealth of information Mr. Austin."

This is some other food for thought, interesting how some tests do almost as well over TBolt2 as they do in a PCI slot in a cgMP.

http://barefeats.com/tube21.html


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 11:06:14 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I know the GPUs are replaceable, but are they intended to be user upgradeable the same way the RAM and SSD are?"

They are easy to remove and Apple hasn't they aren't. They have said the memory and the SSD are.

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe when the new, nMP come out Apple will offer the new GPUs will be backwards compatible with the 2013 nMP and Apple will offer them as stand alone purchase for those that want to upgrade, but that just seems very unlike Apple these days."

They did release a 7950 for the cgMP not long ago and the upgrade kits were always few and far between. There haven't been next gen GPU updates until a couple months ago so I'm hoping there is a way to upgrade soon.


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 7:02:12 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "If Apple made a user upgradeable machine I would be fine with longer durations between upgrades because I wouldn't be solely dependent on Apple to when it came to improvements. "

This is the grey area, the GPUs, RAM, and SSD are considered 'user serviceable' but as of yet there are no 3rd party GPUs or Apple upgrades available.

I'm hoping they offer upgrade kits as they have in the past for the cgMP™. That will say a lot if that happens or not.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 17, 2016 at 11:32:48 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I guess where I'm sorta confused is that many products work on 12-18 month product cycles (cars, consumer electronics, camping gear, etc.,) and many people still buy the current model year, as opposed to waiting for a 'year end clearance sale', yet you make it sound like it's an unsustainable business model."

I'm not saying it's unsustainable, I'm just saying it might not be logical anymore, for Apple to be in the speed wars.

The straightfoward CPU/GPU math doesn't always add up to what is fastest.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 18, 2016 at 2:32:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm not saying it's unsustainable, I'm just saying it might not be logical anymore, for Apple to be in the speed wars."

I'm not saying Apple should get into an speed war with HP. I just want Apple to get into an speed war with itself. Have the expensive, flagship line get buffed more than once every three years, make it fast enough that the 'consumer' machine with the single mobile GPU gets left in the dust, etc.,


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 18, 2016 at 2:44:22 am

[Andrew Kimery] "make it fast enough that the 'consumer' machine with the single mobile GPU gets left in the dust, etc.,"

On many tasks and general editing this is true but for large outputs and Red footage transcoding the maxed out Mac Pro is still much faster in FCP X.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 18, 2016 at 3:46:46 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I'm not saying Apple should get into an speed war with HP. I just want Apple to get into an speed war with itself. Have the expensive, flagship line get buffed more than once every three years, make it fast enough that the 'consumer' machine with the single mobile GPU gets left in the dust, etc.,
"


I guess it depends on what you need to do, and as I was trying to say earlier, there are things that don't add up.

Intel QuickSync allows fast h264 encode/decide on smaller, cheaper, less powerful processors, when you'd think that a faster (larger core number/more powerful) processor would simply overpower it.

Even comparing GPUS, sometimes the cheap ones outperform the expensive ones. It's hard to justify a big cost increase to buy the parts.

The reason your socks aren't getting blown off is becuase the difference isn't all that great in editing operations. Sure, big 3D renders, lots of compositing with edge blends, rays, glows, prediction will favor some juice, but that doesn't necessarily translate in a mathematical correlation. Double the cores rarely means twice as fast.

Just as the old MacPro hung around for a while, Apple kept it on sale. If the MacPro line was dead, they would kill it. Apple still makes very nice machines, and the MacPro might not be the best value at the moment, and my guess is Apple knows it, so why would they buy the most expensive pieces for no return?


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 18, 2016 at 8:50:31 pm

On a different note, some more info here about WWDC in general:



- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 4:24:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " If the MacPro line was dead, they would kill it."

Everything is alive until it's dead. ;) I think the Pod Classic was in suspended animation about five years before Apple pulled the plug. I'm not saying I think the MP pro line is dead (yet) and I hope it's not because it would be a shame if the iMac became the top of the line desktop offering from Apple. I want to replace my '09 MP (I've been wanting to replace it for a while now) and I want to replace it w/a nMP, but I just can't justify the price for a machine announced in 2013 containing GPUs that were new in 2012.

[Jeremy Garchow] "the MacPro might not be the best value at the moment, and my guess is Apple knows it, so why would they buy the most expensive pieces for no return?"

I don't follow. Wouldn't what I'm suggesting (a price drop or a speed bump) improve the value of the nMP? Apple always has healthy margins on their hardware (and it's gotta be really healthy by now with how old the nMP hardware is) so it's not like I'm saying they should take a hit on each nMP sold I'd just like the upgrades to come sooner than once every three years. Besides Apple just doing this because they can, the only thing I can think of is that the custom GPUs in the nMP are so expensive to design and build for such a limited production run that it's not cost effective to upgrade them as often as normal graphics cards get updated.


I'm just trying to understand what advantages there are, from a user's perspective, of such an unusually long product cycle with no speed bumps and no price adjustments.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 4:53:32 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Wouldn't what I'm suggesting (a price drop or a speed bump) improve the value of the nMP?"

I don't know. Would it? How would a machine that's still old be any more valuable at 10% less the price? Does intel give Apple a discount on the Xeons because they are 'old'?

Here's an article about architects saying Apple is screwing up because they don't put i7s in the MacPros: http://architosh.com/2016/06/if-jobs-failed-twice-why-would-ives-team-succe...

The i7s perform better than the Xeons for their applications, and in some cases, that is true with video applications as well, unless you need processor power for transcoding/rendering in a CPU based architecture. Do you need a ton of CPU to playback a multicam edit? No.

The article wants to "Scale up" to the cheaper, cooler, smaller, more efficient and more powerful......i7. So why spend a lot time and effort (and a lot of money) to buy Xeons?


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Walter Soyka
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 5:14:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So why spend a lot time and effort (and a lot of money) to buy Xeons?"

There are two and half reasons to buy a Xeon over an i7:

1) Support for multiple processors.
2) Support for ECC RAM.
2.5) Designed for continuous operation under load. (Translation: clocked lower.)

Since the nMP is single-socket, I agree the i7 would have been a better choice for nearly all applications.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 6:17:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't know. Would it? How would a machine that's still old be any more valuable at 10% less the price? Does intel give Apple a discount on the Xeons because they are 'old'?"

Generally speaking old tech is less valuable because it has been surpassed by better, cheaper, faster tech so in order for the old tech to still be a good value to buyers (in terms of price/performance) it gets a price reduction. I think I paid around $2,500 for my MBP in 2011 but there is no way in hell in I would pay $2500 for a 2011 MBP today when I can get a 2015 MBP for around the same price. As far as Apple and Intel deal, I'm sure Apple got a good wholesale discount and I'd be surprised if component depreciation wasn't factored into the deal. If it was a regular seller/buyer, retail relationship then yes, I would have to say that generally speaking Intel, like other companies, does sell its older generation products at lower prices compared to its newer generation products (taking into considering that different product tiers have different price structures of course).

When I used to build gaming PCs as a hobby I never had the budget for bleeding edge speed which meant I either bought middle of the road components the year they came out or I wanted a year or so and bought former best in class components that had seen a price drop so their price/performance ratio was more in line with my budget and needs. Hell, even video game consoles typically see the first round of price drops about 18-24 months after launch, and thanks to decreased component costs and increased production efficiency their margins either stay the same or get better. Of course a video game console is going to have an economy of scale that the nMP could only dream of. Maybe that's the problem?

Maybe The nMPs are doing so poorly that Apple can't afford to upgrade them often and don't have the economy of scale that allows them to do a price cut w/o cutting to deeply into their margins. If that's the case then it does make wonder why Apple would keep making such a low performing product. Or maybe it's just Apple being Apple and they have more important things to focus on so they'll get to the nMP whenever they get to the nMP.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Here's an article about architects saying Apple is screwing up because they don't put i7s in the MacPros: http://architosh.com/2016/06/if-jobs-failed-twice-why-would-ives-team-succe....."

That article pretty much echoes my sentiments though it's much more damning of Apple's decisions than I've been in this thread. I'm just asking for a speed bump or a price drop but that article basically says the nMP is a fundamentally ill-conceived computer that, w/o a major course correction, is going to tank like the Cube. I didn't realize how poor of a choice going with the single Xeon vs a single i7 was. Apple also literally doubled down on GPU performance being the wave of the future yet that doesn't seem to have panned out either. We have more apps levering the GPU but it still seems like a lot more productivity, generally speaking, is tethered to the CPU. Add to that the other common complaints (excessive form of function, limited upgradeability, close competition from 5K i7 iMac, etc.,) and it sounds like Apple wasn't paying very close attention to how the nMP would actually perform in the wild.

[Jeremy Garchow] "So why spend a lot time and effort (and a lot of money) to buy Xeons?"

Where did I say that? I just want a faster MP more than once every 3+ years or a price drop since they are selling the same computer that was released in 2013 (w/GPUs that were new in 2012). If an i7 is faster in practical application than a Xeon then put an i7 in it. If AMD hasn't improved their GPUs since 2012 then Apple hitched their cart to the wrong horse. If they have improved their GPUs why haven't those improvements made their way into the nMP? Or is there no real logical explanation other than it's just Apple being Apple?

I came into this discussion mostly lamenting that the 2013 nMP was overpriced by 2016 standards, but now you have me thinking it's a very flawed machine born out of hubris and groupthink, thanks Jeremy. ;)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 6:40:13 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Generally speaking old tech is less valuable because it has been surpassed by better, cheaper, faster tech so in order for the old tech to still be a good value to buyers (in terms of price/performance) it gets a price reduction."

I'm not that much of an idiot. I know what you're talking about.

[Andrew Kimery] "I came into this discussion mostly lamenting that the 2013 nMP was overpriced by 2016 standards, but now you have me thinking it's a very flawed machine born out of hubris and groupthink, thanks Jeremy. ;)"

Hey, no problem. Apple did the same pattern with the Cheesegrater. Kept it on sale with "old" tech, didn't say anything about it, didn't kill it. With Thunderbolt 3 coming (but not quite "here" in Apple terms), I'd imagine we are in the same sort of waiting game.

In the meantime, keep your 2009 computer working, and skip right to Thunderbolt 3 when it's ready.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 21, 2016 at 9:39:36 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm not that much of an idiot. I know what you're talking about.
"


Didn't mean to imply you were an idiot, but it's so easy to accidentally talk past each other on line that sometimes I'm not sure when to keep going and when I've already belabored the point.

[Jeremy Garchow] "In the meantime, keep your 2009 computer working, and skip right to Thunderbolt 3 when it's ready."

That's my plan... as painfully long, and drawn out as it's becoming. hahaha. I'd be fine with an 5K iMac as a stop gap machine but I know as soon as I buy the a new MP will be announced and then I'll be in a new waiting mess. Do I sell the iMac I just bought for a loss and get the new MP or do I wait a couple of years for a better MP? If I decide wait how long will I have to wait? And suddenly it's 2019, my 5K iMac is old and creaky, the 2016 nMP hasn't seen a price change or spec bump in three years and I'm wondering if the MP line is dead or not! ;)

This is why my life would be easier if Apple just buffed the specs every 12-18 months like they used to! lol


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Oliver Peters
Re: wwdc
on Jun 22, 2016 at 11:48:12 pm

Good first look at Sierra

http://www.loopinsight.com/2016/06/22/first-look-macos-sierra/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 23, 2016 at 12:28:16 am

[Andrew Kimery] "This is why my life would be easier if Apple just buffed the specs every 12-18 months like they used to! "

That pesky intel went to a longer wait time between CPU refreshes. It's going to be even slower in the next few years.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 23, 2016 at 3:36:58 am

[Darren Roark] "That pesky intel went to a longer wait time between CPU refreshes. It's going to be even slower in the next few years."

Intel hasn't released a new CPU since 2013, AMD hasn't released a new GPU since 2012... Man, Apple has the toughest luck finding reliable partners. ;)


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 23, 2016 at 4:21:10 am
Last Edited By Darren Roark on Jun 23, 2016 at 4:28:27 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Intel hasn't released a new CPU since 2013, AMD hasn't released a new GPU since 2012... Man, Apple has the toughest luck finding reliable partners. ;)"

Well yeah, they did announce the nMP on a 'tock' year not a tick year. As for the AMDs, they have been pretty much been polishing their 2013 chips until this new gen was announced a couple months ago.

It's a lot better than when I finally got around to getting a B&W G3 tower and then the G4 came out a month later.

Thankfully nowadays Intel and AMD have at least provide roadmaps that make the guessing game a little more reliable.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: wwdc
on Jun 23, 2016 at 5:54:58 am

[Darren Roark] "It's a lot better than when I finally got around to getting a B&W G3 tower and then the G4 came out a month later. "

Yeah, my most irrational fear is probably of buying electronics and then having an better version come out right after my return window ends. lol


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Darren Roark
Re: wwdc
on Jun 23, 2016 at 6:06:45 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Yeah, my most irrational fear is probably of buying electronics and then having an better version come out right after my return window ends. lol"

I think we share the same techupgradeophobia condition.

I just buy the outgoing model refurbished when the new one comes out. That way I'm pre-disastered into having old tech. At least I saved enough money to feel like it was justified. ;)


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