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Noah Kadner
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 24, 2016 at 8:54:37 pm

I never understood why Sony was in the NLE business in the first place.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops


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David Roth Weiss
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 24, 2016 at 10:01:10 pm

Neither did the execs at Sony... Not one of their attempts to create an NLE ever really took off, and many were just outright failures. Just ask Mads Nybo Jorgensen, a Cow member who paid through the nose for Sony's worst NLE failure, the name of which now escapes me - it simply never worked properly.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 24, 2016 at 11:03:06 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Just ask Mads Nybo Jorgensen, a Cow member who paid through the nose for Sony's worst NLE failure, the name of which now escapes me - it simply never worked properly."

XPRI?

Did Socratto ever make it out of beta?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Scott Thomas
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 8:08:44 am

I remember seeing Xpri in the trades, back in the day.

Lots of physical panels with buttons and knobs. Seemed like they were going after Quantel in a way.

Never saw one in real life.


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Keith Koby
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 20, 2016 at 7:02:59 pm

I saw an XPRI in real life. Creative Group in NYC had one. They were a big Sony linear edit house and they got one pretty early on. I kind of think it was a demo unit... It was very limited. We had to jump through hoops to get footage on and off of it IIRC.


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Shawn Miller
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 24, 2016 at 9:32:05 pm

Wow, that's a bit of a shocker. I wonder if Resolve played any role in Sony's decision to get out of the NLE business.



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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 24, 2016 at 10:05:06 pm
Last Edited By Tim Wilson on May 24, 2016 at 11:42:37 pm

[Noah Kadner] "I never understood why Sony was in the NLE business in the first place"

They've been in it a lot longer than you might remember. (Although maybe you do!) At the high end, editing was part of their SONAPS ingest-editing-playout-nearline-archive end-to-end broadcast TV production system. A Grass Valley-ish sort of enterprise, optimized around XDCAM. The editing component was XPRI. Remember that bag of dripping goo?

At the low end, remember Circuit City? Back in the 90s, there was a huge burst of people trying to scoop up the nascent home digital video business with boxes of $99 software for Windows. When I say "people" I mean companies that should have known better, like Sony and Pinnacle. LOL

This kicked up a couple of notches with DV, which removed pesky I/O issues. This was a smarter play for Sony than a lot of others, because of their camera business. Needless to say, as with XPRI and XDCAM, Sony was getting a slice of DV licensing and selling Sony DV cameras, and later HDV cameras, so editing software that was optimized for those Sony formats (including yeah, XDCAM) was a synergistic play that reinforced the value of the platform for capture, editing, and distribution/archiving via DVD.

At the low end, this wasn't a joke. There was real money here. I don't know about Vegas, but I know that Pinnacle Studio had 10 million customers. TEN MILLION! At $100/box, plus an upgrade or two along the way, it was well over a billion dollars gross across the life of that product. And talk about low-hanging fruit! It was built on just a few gleanings from high-end products whose tech was just as easily applicable to the low end.

But even Pinnacle Studio was too high-falutin'. Sony Screenblast Movie Studio was positioned against Windows Movie Maker and Ulead VideoStudio. Believe it or not, I recently stumbled across a review of this swath of the market, and while specifically nodding to the power of Pinnacle Studio, they also pointed out that it wasn't included in the review because you really needed some more experience to take advantage of it. Take a look if you dare.

It turns out that the Screenblast tech was licensed from Sonic Foundry. Their audio stuff in particular was amazing. The price/performance for Sound Forge was off the charts, and ACID was a wall-to-wall blast. Sony had a whale of a time staying afloat vs. Adobe and Apple (and to a MUCH lesser extent, Avid...although in fact Sound Forge had the most compelling Pro Tools-like feature set out there), sold for seriously short money to Sony ($18 million!!!) who saw an opportunity to fill in the gap between Screenblast and XPRI. With audio and DVD tools up and down the line, they had an end-to-end solution in every price range and in virtually every market.

Vegas offered a lot of other features that were useful much higher up the product line than we typically talk about around here. Easy support for high-end formats, scriptability that made it right at home inside high-end environments, 3D DVE and compositing toolsets that tied into broadcast CG, etc. Frankly, not unlike FCPX or (dare I say it) FCP Legend. Looks like one thing, but can do lots of 'em.

Certainly played well against Pinnacle's Liquid product line for sure, and helped Sony keep a straight face in the lower end of the broadcast market for a lot more years than you'd think. And both Sony and Liquid were doing vastly more business in other parts of the world than the US, so the value proposition for them was hidden from the plain view of American and far-western European eyes.


So the acquisition of Sonic Foundry was an actual strategy, tied to a strategy being executed across the entire company.

Any number of moderately well-educated chimps can tell you that there was a countdown clock attached to this strategy, but I think every one of said chimps would have said that the clock would have run out a long time before it actually has. It turns out that there's actual money in the consumer electronics market, and the consumer software adjacent to it. Who knew?

Perhaps a longer answer than the question warrants, but I know you expect nothing less from me.

FWIW, our friend John Rofrano had posted this in the COW's Vegas forum last night. He was one of the true giants in those circles, but transitioned his own work onto FCPX a while back. Hopefully he'll weigh in with some insights that will outweigh mine. :-)




[Shawn Miller] "I wonder if Resolve played any role in Sony's decision to get out of the NLE business."

Probably not, because even at a price of $0, the markets were different.

I'm going to say that the biggest bite was taken by FCPX. You can see it in the product that was in the process of supplanting Vegas, Sony Catalyst. Their strategy was identical to the one suggested here many times: send out the new thing in its current state -- amply usable, but feature incomplete -- while leaving the Legacy product in place for people who need the "full" feature set of the "real" product.

The problem is that the "real" product's customers kept hanging on, demanding development that was never going to happen, because Sony was investing its energies into the new thing. The outcome: Sony could NEVER EVER EVER make money with this strategy, because they were the vampire sucking their own blood. Eventually, there was no blood left.

Apple knew this from the beginning, so they never insulted their users by pretending that there was ANY future for FCP Legend. In fact, they did this in reverse, by essentially freezing development at 2007 or so, with no more than maintenance features after the introduction of Pro Res, which wasn't exactly a feature...leaving the last major FEATURE development at FCP 5 and multicam.

So there was your glidepath: 4+ years of no more than maintenance development, while the new thing was about to emerge.

You can (and many of you do) argue that Apple could have extended its glidepath forward, but I continue to maintain that this strategy would have cratered Apple's business for both products. Sony's experience isn't exactly proof, but it's certainly a perfect case study that this strategy is unsustainable.

I don't know what MAGIX is planning, but you already know what my advice to them would be. Pick one horse and ride it.

I like Catalyst a lot. Just as Vegas (and Screenblast) was first optimized for Sony DV, Catalyst has been optimized for consumer 4K+ (think Go Pro) and Sony RAW, and is stupidly powerful for the money. I wouldn't go so far as to say it looks like FCPX...but it doesn't look entirely un-X like, and any longtime Sonic Foundry user will tell you that Sony's approach to tracks has been ahead of the game...even if some folks now consider tracks to be by definition behind the game.

But it's wholly legit, and more than capable for building a business on for MAGIX...but only if they commit to it. Otherwise, they're in for the same self-vampiring that killed the product line at Sony.

Or heck, maybe the thing was making a mint and Sony decided to get out of the mint business. But I'm guessing it was more like the problem of sucking their own blood until there was none left.


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Noah Kadner
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 24, 2016 at 11:55:56 pm

Anyone ever see Vegas in use outside of a home project studio?

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops


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Michael Gissing
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 25, 2016 at 12:13:55 am

It made sense to take a pro audio acquisition like Sound Forge and add video editing to a well featured DAW. After all Sony have been in the video game longer than anyone.

Staying in the NLE game now makes little sense however so I am not surprised that Vegas is no longer palatable to them. I think Resolve has had an influence as it offers yet another alternative on the PC platform. To be fair Edius, Lightworks, Premiere and Avid do too but non Mac NLEs are getting more not less. Hitfilm is also cross platform so the market for WIN based NLEs is much more crowded now.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 26, 2016 at 12:55:59 pm

[Noah Kadner] "Anyone ever see Vegas in use outside of a home project studio?"

There very same question could have been asked of FCP X until some brave and smart people including yourself bucked popular wisdom and made it happen.

But I do think "Why should I switch to Vegas?" would make an interesting question.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 26, 2016 at 4:25:05 pm

[Walter Soyka] "There very same question could have been asked of FCP X until some brave and smart people including yourself bucked popular wisdom and made it happen."

fwiw, Vegas has typically been one of our very top forums at the COW. The only reason it has dropped out of the top 3 is because of increased traffic in Resolve, Premiere Pro, After Effects and this here forum.

Quite a bit of the work using Vegas is taking place at a level very similar to non-broadcast work edited with other products here, but yes, like FCPX, the feature set is ample for just about any kind of work. More than a few of Vegas's long suits aren't natively available in most NLEs, including robust scripting, motion tracking and more.

I'll also add that I've never seen a more passionate user base than Vegas. Not FCP, not FCPX, not After Effects -- nobody can hold a candle to those folks.


[Walter Soyka] "But I do think "Why should I switch to Vegas?" would make an interesting question.
"


Of course, a number of high-profile Vegas users (including our own John Rofrano) have migrated from Vegas to FCPX. :-)

To a point I've made many times over the years, Sony's attention has been divided with trying to develop both Vegas and Catalyst, and Vegas has paid the price. That MAGIX has bought Vegas and NOT bought Catalyst (which will stay at Sony) has already pumped up the enthusiasm in that community beyond anything I've seen in years. I've already been seeing a number of profoundly disheartened users remind themselves of what they've loved for years, with great hope for what's to come.

And when's the last time you could characterize an entire user base as energized and hopeful? Maybe Resolve? Maybe, but not like this. It's gonna be fun to see what comes to pass.


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 25, 2016 at 10:07:22 am

[Tim Wilson] "Apple knew this from the beginning, so they never insulted their users by pretending that there was ANY future for FCP Legend. In fact, they did this in reverse, by essentially freezing development at 2007 or so, with no more than maintenance features after the introduction of Pro Res, which wasn't exactly a feature...leaving the last major FEATURE development at FCP 5 and multicam."

I think this is cutting Apple a bit short. There was Final Cut Studio 2 in 2007 (which included FCP6), that not only had Prores, but also had Color (first affordable grading program!), Smoothcam, Optical Flow, 5.1 support, open timeline format, Editing Motion 3 templates without leaving FCP (the whole send to... stuff), ...
Which I think, was a huge and important release.
In 2009 they had Final Cut Studio 3, which included FCP 7, and this were only pretty minor feature improvements (although they were welcome), where everyone was kind of disappointed and looking out to what was going to come next.

https://mathieughekiere.wordpress.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 25, 2016 at 4:02:32 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "In 2009 they had Final Cut Studio 3, which included FCP 7, and this were only pretty minor feature improvements (although they were welcome), where everyone was kind of disappointed and looking out to what was going to come next."

You are actually agreeing with me. People were disappointed in 2009 because development had largely stopped after 2007. 2009 was merely a maintenance release. Apple's priorities had already shifted.

My point about 2007 is that the boldest headline feature was Pro Res. It was an odd duck. Released four years AFTER Avid had introduced DNxHD, based on the very same technology, with the very same intent. Pro Res didn't take off until support for hardware encoding from companies like AJA was widely available...at which point Pro Res was understood to be one of FCP's most important features yet...

...but go back and look through the Creative COW archive. There was widespread disappointment for Apple's 2007 release as well. This is in strong contrast to every year before then, when enthusiasm was quite high.

Again, even if we disagree that Apple's last major EDITING feature was multicam in 2005, we completely agree that Apple was coasting after 2007, leading to only a minor update in 2009.

It turns out that they were working very hard indeed on their 2011 release. Ironically, it's most like the 2007 release. Initial disappointment gave way to an understanding that FCPX was a much more compelling release than it first appeared.

Noting again that I was among the handful of people who was IMMEDIATELY enthralled by X. I just happen to be honest that it was no more than a handful of us. :-)

And in fairness to those initially disappointed, it took awhile for Apple to deliver the much-awaited features that made it a compelling replacement.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 26, 2016 at 4:36:36 am

[Tim Wilson] "You can (and many of you do) argue that Apple could have extended its glidepath forward, but I continue to maintain that this strategy would have cratered Apple's business for both products. Sony's experience isn't exactly proof, but it's certainly a perfect case study that this strategy is unsustainable. "

Apple continuing to sell FCP Legend for a few months after the launch of X wouldn't have harmed the uptick of X, and that's all that people basically wanted (a heads up and a chance to grab another license of 7 if they needed it). Apple eventually let you order it via phone for a time and I think they learned their lessons which is why they gave Aperture users a warning six months in advance before they pulled the plug.


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 12:48:08 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Apple continuing to sell FCP Legend for a few months after the launch of X wouldn't have harmed the uptick of X, and that's all that people basically wanted"

I don't think that that last point is true at all, for a bunch of reasons.

Chief among them is that it's still available today. Here it is on Amazon, $669 with Prime shipping. You can have it Saturday (on Memorial Day weekend no less!) with free shipping. If you can wait a couple of extra days for it used, you can get it for about half that.

So at the very least, let's end the myth that it's no longer available, because it is. Thirteen boxes in stock at this one link alone.

Let's say that it was actually gone forever. (Let me emphasize again: NOT TRUE.)

People had 3 months to see what X was about, based on a rare, incredibly widely distributed NAB presentation from Apple themselves. There was wall-to-wall coverage here in the COW, including this very forum (which sprung into being DURING the NAB presentation as the conversation overwhelmed the original FCP forum). Calling it well-discussed on the internet at large is a colossal understatement.

As a result, there was no doubt whatsoever that this was coming. For three months, anybody who wanted to squirrel away a few boxes of Final Cut Studio for their fallout shelters beside the jerky and powdered milk could easily have done so.

Apple never made any suggestion that there would be parallel development between X and Legacy. None. NO suggestion that ANYTHING resembling Legend even a little would ever see the light of day again. Anybody who failed to act in those three months has only themselves to blame.

(But honestly, is somebody arguing that there was some urgent need to buy boxes for seats that hadn't existed in April 2011? Maybe here and there, but the evidence that this can't possibly be true on any wide scale is that fact that Legend remains relatively abundant at a discount, rather than rare at a premium.)

The fact that Apple briefly relented rather than dump the leftover boxes in a landfill doesn't change that. Three months warning. That's plenty of time for anyone who's not cruising for a fight.

And let's be honest. It's clear that, mixed in with plenty of well-earned good-faith consternation, there were also scazillions of people who were just looking to vent, and were happy to point their quivering outrage wherever they could.

Perhaps so busy quivering in their outrage that they failed to notice that, five years later, they can have a box of Legend on their doorstep with free two-day shipping.

Now then....

....to my point about it being impossible to sustain two divergent development paths with one set of resources, and the folly of assigning two sets of resources to competing goals, knowing in advance which of them will win and which will lose, I note that Sony ONLY sold Vegas, the equivalent of FCP Legend. They're KEEPING Catalyst, the equivalent of FCPX, for themselves.

Which raises an interesting what if. What if Apple had done like Sony: kept the shiny new thing (FCPX), and sold the neglected old thing (FCP) to somebody else?

Who might they have sold it to? What might it have become? Discuss. :-)

I've been thinking about this a lot in the last day or two. I've called FCP 7 zombie-ware on many occasions (still shuffling along, but with neither heartbeat nor breath), and will do again on many more. I truly believe that Apple bestowed a mercy upon both FCP and its ever-awaiting fans by putting a shovel in the zombie's head and ending the charade.

But I've never let my enthusiasm for X or my enthusiastic support for Apple's perfectly executed launch take away my belief that SOMEBODY could have been developing FCP Legend since some point soon after 2007 and far into the future from now. Just not Apple.

The fact is that Vegas itself had taken on some of the traits of zombieware. Just last month, someone in the COW's Vegas forum started a "Sony Vegas RIP" thread, saying that it was time for Vegas users to come to terms with the fact that this thing was in fact dead.

I think some of the same dynamic was afoot at Sony as Apple. Sony had shifted resources to Catalyst, but the framework of Vegas was such that it could keep going for a long time without further development -- but rather than take Apple's course, they chose to sell it somebody who CAN breathe new life into it, and fulfill its still untapped potential.

So I think in addition to Sony shifting resources, there was some thought of well, let's let the new guys invest in it, since we're not going to be around to monetize any efforts of our own. This kind of purchase doesn't happen overnight, and it honestly would have made no sense whatever for Sony to do work that could never be paid for, since they were never gonna be selling that product themselves.

Apple knew this about FCP Legend of course. No point in developing it if you can't pay for that development with sales, since they knew that they were never going to sell that product again.

And indeed, one of the hazards of funding development via sales is that you can ONLY pay for development in arrears. This makes forward-facing development impossible.

Contrast this with subscription-funded development, which is all about funding forward-looking development TODAY. Subscription-funded development HAS to be forward-facing to justify its own value over the life of each and every subscription. That's the theory, and both Adobe and Avid have amply demonstrated that it works exactly that way in each of their variations on the theme.

Anyway, I do think that the parallels and contrasts between Apple and Sony are interesting on this front.

I mentioned in another post on this thread that it has been exciting for me to see the industry's most fervent fan base regain its fervor over just the past couple of days. I really, truly hope they see this effort bear the fruit they anticipate when the new version of Vegas launches in September.

I also think a lot of the developers on the MAGIX team, some of whom have been working on Vegas since the Sonic Foundry days, are chomping at the bit to do the work they'd been wanting to do for a very long time. I'm happy for them too. I've known some of those guys since my days at Boris FX around the turn of the century, and enjoyed developing the first major third-party plug-in for Vegas with them.

In any case, for a bunch of armchair yakkers like us, this is going to be a fun summer as we watch all this unfold.


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Herb Sevush
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 11:20:05 am

Tim, we are going to disagree about this for eternity aren't we. Oh well, let's proceed.

[Tim Wilson] "People had 3 months to see what X was about"

Other than the few hundred folks in attendance at the nab event all the rest of us heard were rumors, and of all the rumors, none of us heard that Apple would be releasing a program that A) couldn't open FCP7 files under any circumstances B) was missing a host of essential features for many workflows and C) was discontinuing all sales of FCP7 on the day of X's release.

It is demonstrable that Apple screwed up this release because they then proceeded to "step back" from some of these problems -they began to, very quietly (almost secretly some might say) release copies of FCP7 thru the retail chain and then issued a unique (in my Apple "x"periance) white paper outlining their future plans for X (plans they would meet with great accuracy.) If the release was such a success why did they have to change their minds in mid stream? Why the white paper, something that hasn't been matched in the following 5 years, if all was going to plan?

[Tim Wilson] "Three months warning. That's plenty of time for anyone who's not cruising for a fight."

The NAB demo did not constitute a warning.

The white paper showed that Apple could, when it was in their interest, communicate with their customers. I wasn't at the demo but did anyone there say all sales of FCP7 would end when X was released. did they explain that X was 100% incompatible with FCP7 as far as transferring timelines go? if so I must have missed that part of the discussion.

[Tim Wilson] "Which raises an interesting what if. What if Apple had done like Sony: kept the shiny new thing (FCPX), and sold the neglected old thing (FCP) to somebody else?

Who might they have sold it to? What might it have become? Discuss. :-)"


Why would Apple allow someone to offer another alternative to X? To be fair to their customers? That would be even more novel than the white paper.

A bit of history. When Autodesk/Discreet announced that they were EOLing edit* a number of the users gathered together to try to get management to sell the software so that we could still use it. Pinnacle back then was using the same i/o boards as edit* and seemed like a match, but Autodesk wouldn't sell to a competitor. Then the users tried to initiate a user base purchase direct from Autodesk, we went so far as to contact the development team to see if they would want a stake in it, but eventually Autodesk refused to deal with us because -- well, because why bother, they had already counted on writing it off their books and who give's a rats ass about some noisy customers anyway, business is business.

As for FCP Legacy, who would be interested in taking over software development for the fastest growing NLE, with somewhere around 2 million paying users - oh I don't know, maybe Black Magic, or some Chinese or Korean hardware company that wanted a bigger presence in the US market, or Boris, or Edit Share, or almost anyone who wanted to make a buck. It doesn't matter who was interested, or who would be interested, because Apple had zero, none, nada interest in competing with itself.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 4:20:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Other than the few hundred folks in attendance at the nab event all the rest of us heard were rumors, and of all the rumors, none of us heard that Apple would be releasing a program that A) couldn't open FCP7 files under any circumstances B) was missing a host of essential features for many workflows and C) was discontinuing all sales of FCP7 on the day of X's release."

I agree with Herb.

The NAB preview was just sold as just that, a preview of the new features coming in the new version of FCP. It wasn't until the launch that it was clear that the preview of new features was actually the preview of all the features and that the new, shipping version couldn't open existing FCP projects, couldn't do multi-cam, couldn't do video out, etc.,. That plus FCP 7 getting yanked from the retail outlet was all part of the perfect storm that created the massive blowback Apple got from users. Why would any 'stock up' on FCP 7 licenses after the NAB preview when you've ALWAYS been able to take projects from old versions of FCP and open them up in a newer version of FCP?

Apple saw the error of their ways and later put copies of FCP 7 back into the retail channel. They also changed their Mac App store policy to allow for a trail version of X to be downloaded. And later, like I mentioned before, they gave a six month warning that Aperture was going to be EOL'd and pulled from the Mac App store. Heck, even Adobe was paying attention which is why they didn't pull CS6 when the launched CC. Did some people with older copies of Adobe software buy CS6 instead of signing up for CC? Yeah, but that's a short term loss which is a drop in the bucket compared to the user revolt that would've happened if Adobe wouldn't pulled CS6 from store shelves when they launched CC.

Apple made a similar stumble prior to X and you'd think they would've learned from that. When Apple released iMovie '08 it was a total rebuild that had a new interface and lacked many of the features of the previous version of iMovie (iMovie HD 6). It was universally panned and users were pissed (sound familiar?). Apple's solution? They gave iMovie '08 users a free copy of iMovie HD 6. When iMovie '09 came out (which had restored many of the missing features) the iMovie HD 6 give way ended. I'm not saying Apple should've have given away FCP 7, but someone, somewhere in the company should've been smart enough to go, "Hey, remember when that iMovie re-boot blew up in our faces? Any ideas on how to avoid that when we launch X?"

It was a combination of decisions that resulted in a tone deaf launch by Apple which, 5yrs later, still reverberates among many long time FCP users. That it could've been so easily avoided is what's always going to stick in my mind, I think.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 5:12:27 pm

Sorry Tim, but Andrew's play by play resonates with me more than yours. You certainly know about about the inner workings of the manufacturers, developers, and marketers, but your take on the reason FCP users were so pissed- off sounds more like a reaction from an Apple insider than someone who understands the customer response, and you seem to have an "open market" mentality, that all is fair in business, not matter who gets hurt in the process. The reality is, Apple abandoned its customers with NO warning (not 3-weeks or 3-months), gave no thought to providing an interim solution to ease the pain of those who had invested long-term in the legacy product, and in fact, as you nicely pointed out, planned that long before springing it on their loyal customer base.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Shawn Miller
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 4:58:11 pm

[Herb Sevush] "...who would be interested in taking over software development for the fastest growing NLE, with somewhere around 2 million paying users - oh I don't know, maybe Black Magic, or some Chinese or Korean hardware company that wanted a bigger presence in the US market, or Boris, or Edit Share, or almost anyone who wanted to make a buck"

I bet Adobe would have been first in line for that sale. ;-)

Shawn



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David Roth Weiss
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 5:19:15 pm

Why Shawn? Adobe just made their 64-bit full rewrite of Premiere into a very FCP 8-like NLE with better support for migrating from FCP 7 than Apple's own replacement product. They had no need to purchase FCP and we're obviously already in progress on CC long before Apple gave them the big boost that FCPX handed over to them.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Shawn Miller
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:10:26 pm

All true David, but it's also true that PPro still had a huge stigma attached to the name at the very moment that FCP7 was EOL'd. I actually had two editors get angry with me for even suggesting that they try Premiere Pro as a possible replacement for FCP7 at the time. Ironically, they're both now PPro users after having decided that Avid didn't suit the way they preferred to work... go figure. I could see purchasing FCP7 more for the installed user base and the halo effect, than the actual technology.



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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:23:48 pm

[Shawn Miller] "All true David, but it's also true that PPro still had a huge stigma attached to the name at the very moment that FCP7 was EOL'd. I actually had two editors get angry with me for even suggesting that they try Premiere Pro as a possible replacement for FCP7 at the time."

It's pretty crazy to think that Premiere had been crapped/seen as an 'also ran' for nearly 25yrs before it finally started being taken seriously on higher profile projects. I used Premiere 6.5 in the late 90's/early 00's and even in the no/low budget world you would get ignore unless you had FCP (or magically had access to an Avid). A big reason I moved from Windows and Premiere to FCP and a Mac is because I couldn't find any work with Premiere.


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:34:11 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " A big reason I moved from Windows and Premiere to FCP and a Mac is because I couldn't find any work with Premiere."

Unlike me, you actually work for a living, so I'll ask you. Is it now easier to find a job in LA with Premiere than X?

I'm sure that this is a regional thing, and Hollywood is its own thing, but I know that Bob Zelin has reported that Orlando is virtually an all-Premiere town. Not even Avid is worth as much there anymore.

So while Avid obvs has some value where you are, what's the balance of work with Premiere vs X for you?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:50:18 pm

[Tim Wilson] " Is it now easier to find a job in LA with Premiere than X?"

While I have no official polling results, I can assure you, finding knowlegable Premiere editors is much, much easier here than finding knowledgable FCPX editors, . And, for those of you who think experience and expertise are overvalued, they certainly aren't considered so in the top markets, such as LA.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 8:23:12 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "finding knowlegable Premiere editors is much, much easier here than finding knowledgable FCPX editors"

No official polling results here, either, but I find the opposite: finding knowledgeable FCPX clients/facilities is much harder than finding Premiere clients/facilities.
I see lots of people who run facilities, or network operations, who made the leap to Premiere based mostly on FUD. And those of us who work for and with these folks now have to live with the consequences.

Unlike many of those who post here on the COW, those of us who work in LA usually don't get a say in the matter. If you do promo work for NBC, you use Avid, because NBC on-air promo uses Avid. And they do the finishing. ABC dropped FCP7 for Premiere. So if your'e a vendor for ABC promo, you better get used to Premiere. And so on.

I read, wistfully, of those on this board who are hired to produce, edit and deliver projects, without being told what platform to edit on. Every client I've worked with who sees me working with FCPX has expressed shock and delight at how quickly and smoothly the work gets done. But since just about everyone in Hollywood is an expert in everything, it often comes down to some know-nothing manager dictating the platform. "We need an Avid editor...we need a Premiere editor...we need an After Effects editor (what the hell is an AE editor, anyway? who edits in AE?)..."

PS - I just don't get the "Premiere is the FCP8 we really wanted" trope. I don't find Premiere to be anything like FCP Legacy. Other than having tracks. ;-)


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Chris Harlan
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 18, 2016 at 11:38:40 pm

[Jeff Markgraf] "PS - I just don't get the "Premiere is the FCP8 we really wanted" trope. I don't find Premiere to be anything like FCP Legacy. Other than having tracks. ;-)"

I suppose it depends on how you used it, but I find it to be true, not a "trope." Of course, now its more like FCP 9.7. There's a LOT more in common than having tracks. If you need some examples, try multiple open timelines, using timelines as bins, and an interface that can be arranged in a whole variety of configurations. Those things might not be of value to you personally, but they are very much like Legacy.


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Shawn Miller
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 8:04:42 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "
It's pretty crazy to think that Premiere had been crapped/seen as an 'also ran' for nearly 25yrs before it finally started being taken seriously on higher profile projects. I used Premiere 6.5 in the late 90's/early 00's and even in the no/low budget world you would get ignore unless you had FCP (or magically had access to an Avid). A big reason I moved from Windows and Premiere to FCP and a Mac is because I couldn't find any work with Premiere"


Definitely! I've been using Premiere since v4.0, and this was the perception for most of those years. I admit, it really was that bad for a while, but I think Premiere's reputation was more important than it's capabilities to a lot of people for a long time. I mostly worked in corporate production though, so Premiere skills on Windows was a lot more marketable... it paid well, but you were NOT getting cool points for that kind of work. :-)



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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:31:51 pm

[Shawn Miller] " I could see purchasing FCP7 more for the installed user base and the halo effect, than the actual technology."

We can argue whether it was state of the art in 2011 (which I'm obviously not convinced it entirely was, except in the most literal sense of the word), but state of the art anymore? Can you even run it on today's OS? I don't know. Just asking. I'm not sure why anyone would buy it today.

WHICH YOU CAN. BUY FCP 7 TODAY AND HAVE IT SUNDAY WITH FREE SHIPPING. Want it tomorrow? It's yours for $8.99 shipping.



Please please please, can we lay that to rest already? The fact that Apple doesn't sell it doesn't mean you can't buy it. Want it? BUY IT NOW.

Heck, get it gift-wrapped for $3.49. A bargain for a box that big.

[Steve Connor] (quoting Bill) "And as I have long argued, conserving knowledge about what has worked well in the past is always valid, UNLESS there there turns out to be significant new advantages to be gained by adapting to a new way of thinking.""

As enthusiastic as I've been about X, I don't think it's even a little self-evident that there are NECESSARILY advantages to adapting to it, or indeed that X NECESSARILY represents new thinking.

I also think that expertise and the craftsmanship that can only come with experience have a unique and irreplaceable value, no matter how much shiny new thinking blooms around it.

But I ESPECIALLY vigorously disagree with the contention that "Other than the few hundred folks in attendance at the nab event all the rest of us heard were rumors." That presentation was on YouTube, here in the COW, a bunch of blogs, and who all knows where else. A speedy glance at the MANY iterations on YouTube suggests tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of views in those three months. That information was as widely disseminated as any news to EVER come out of NAB. Arguably the most-widely disseminated news EVER to come out of NAB.

Let me note that I was as quick as anyone to argue that the paint wasn't fully dry on X. Even Apple admitted that. If it was me, I'd have at least had hired Wes Plate or Phil Hodgetts to whip me a project importer... but as a jillion people pointed out before me, it's not like 7 stopped working.

For most of the editing world, ie, everyone using everything else, X represents neither disruption nor innovation. It simply doesn't factor in.

And as noted earlier, you can buy FCP 7 today, have it tomorrow, for about half the price it cost in 2011.


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 8:28:43 pm

[Tim Wilson] "As enthusiastic as I've been about X, I don't think it's even a little self-evident that there are NECESSARILY advantages to adapting to it, or indeed that X NECESSARILY represents new thinking. "

Odd.

I edited for 11+ years straight in Legacy before X. After X, a truly significant percentage of my thinking about the most fundamental processes of editing operations had changed. Your contention must be that I could have done all the same transitional thinking about editing processes if I was using using AVID or PPro or Vegas? I actually don't think so. I doubt any of those would have involved me studying tagging and taxonomy the same way. Or considering new approaches to the processes of story construction as I have.

I'm kinda arguing that how X was designed was a fundamental trigger moving me away from how I used to conceptualize editing operations before X — and how I might conceptualize them differently going forward.

But that's just me - one guy who actually took that journey and made that change.

[Tim Wilson] "For most of the editing world, ie, everyone using everything else, X represents neither disruption nor innovation. It simply doesn't factor in."

Well, sure, but thats like saying that the introduction of the first iPods had little to no effect on people who were in the living rooms listening to LPs. It's accurate but kinda misses the larger point.

In that case, and in hindsight, it was a signal that EVERYTHING was changing.

As evidence, I'd note that we've already seen the pretty clear migration of X thinking into Premier Pro via "hover scrub" and the soon to arrive and much heralded "proxy workflow." and to BlackMagic via Resolves "X-like" features- so there MUST have been something seminal going on in the X elevation of these ideas - or the NLE evolution wouldn't have taken it's recent JOG into those so obviously "X-influenced" directions.

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Dennis Radeke
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 25, 2016 at 4:07:00 pm

So, I'm not on this forum anymore, but since I'm stuck at an airport on a Saturday, I'm chiming in cuz it's good fun. BTW - I've moved to the Adobe Stock team, so am no longer directly involved with Premiere Pro on a day to day basis. Miss it but also love the idea of building a content library for creatives around the world.

[Bill Davis] "Premier Pro"

Premiere Pro please. I freely admit this is my pet peeve, but I don't ever say fxpY do I?

[Bill Davis] "As evidence, I'd note that we've already seen the pretty clear migration of X thinking into Premier Pro via "hover scrub" and the soon to arrive and much heralded "proxy workflow.""

As has been stated multiple times by me and others over the last few years, Hover Scrub and the FCPX Skimming feature were developed in tandem and released at basically the same time. Great ideas can be thought of and explored by multiple people and companies at the same time. I think of Tesla and Edison with electricity. Many different people were working on early flight as well.... I could go on.

As for proxy workflows, lets give credit where it is due - Avid and other early NLEs not named Premiere Pro. For you to say FCPX birthed proxy workflows is a bit...interesting.

To say it again: ALL NLE's have something compelling, unique or valuable to users. It is the principle reason we have a very mature and robust NLE market today from which we ALL benefit.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 26, 2016 at 12:47:46 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jun 26, 2016 at 12:55:25 am

[Dennis Radeke] "Premiere Pro please. I freely admit this is my pet peeve, but I don't ever say fxpY do I?"

Oh man, my apologies. Thought I had broken that habit. My bad.

[Dennis Radeke] "To say it again: ALL NLE's have something compelling, unique or valuable to users. It is the principle reason we have a very mature and robust NLE market today from which we ALL benefit. "

Fair enough.

I'll revise my thinking regarding coincidence. The fact that something appears in one program - then 5 years later appears under a different name in another is clearly a sign of .... something, perhaps. But if you say its not about lifting ideas, I have no reason to dispute that.

Maybe it's just longer approval loops? Or slower, more careful coders? Or more likely just that the software team delivering the feature years later didn't realize the concepts full value until another team developed it further. Far be it for me to speculate. I'm just an end user. And as clueless about this stuff as I am about so much else.

You are right in the assertion that the more good programs out there the better.

And I wish your team nothing but the best with yours. Lots of people are feeding their families via it's mastery and use and that alone makes it valuable.

Oh and about the mistype the brand thing, I'm honestly apologetic. I TRY to be precise about things like that but even when I know things I find myself getting the form wrong. For example, I'm struggling right now with indexing my developing lesson base and since in some places Web IDs don't play well with spaces, I'm dealing with having to type _FCP_X_ over and over and over. Such a hassle, I find myself dropping the correct space in non-public facing uses (FCPX) just to avoid eternally typing the extra underscore over and over and over. These little things are so annoying!

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 26, 2016 at 12:59:52 am

[Dennis Radeke] "As for proxy workflows, lets give credit where it is due - Avid and other early NLEs not named Premiere Pro. For you to say FCPX birthed proxy workflows is a bit...interesting."

To my knowledge, though, FCP X is the first program that creates simultaneous optimized and proxy media in the background. And then provides a simple way to toggle back-and-forth between them, without the need to manually relink between media types. This certainly never existed in Media Composer. Even with the newest Premiere Pro update, it only covers the proxy half of the equation, not the optimized part.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 27, 2016 at 10:57:13 am

I think that FCP X's media management system is very similar to Smoke's:

FCPX native media = Smoke's soft-imported media
FCPX optimized media = Smoke's hard-imported, cached (or "stonified") media
FCPX proxy = Smoke's proxy

Smoke has had proxies since 2003 [link], and background processing (including background proxy generation) since 2006 [link]. Smoke/Flame proxies are like a setting or a mode, not separate media which needs to be relinked; FCPX proxies works much the same way.

Smoke/Flame have also had what FCP users used to call "picon scrubbing" as a major feature of daily workflow since dinosaurs roamed the earth. This is not quite the skimmer nor hover scrub, but it might well be their dad.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 27, 2016 at 1:54:18 pm

Also, not an NLE, but After Effects pioneered resolution independence and had proxies back in 1994. They were linked, but unmanaged, and a single click toggles the proxy on a footage item (clip) level.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 27, 2016 at 9:35:20 pm

It's official then. Elon Musk is nothing more than a crass copycat because Oxcarts had wheels in the 13th century.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Charlie Austin
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 27, 2016 at 10:21:53 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Jun 27, 2016 at 10:23:51 pm

[Bill Davis] "It's official then. Elon Musk is nothing more than a crass copycat because Oxcarts had wheels in the 13th century."

You can do better than that cheap straw man comeback Bill. Use facts. And while you're at it, google "Observational Selection." :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 27, 2016 at 11:21:37 pm

[Charlie Austin] "You can do better than that cheap straw man comeback Bill."

Dammit, THAT's what I should have renamed this forum. "Straw Man or Not: The Debate."

[Bill Davis] "It's official then. Elon Musk is nothing more than a crass copycat because Oxcarts had wheels in the 13th century."

The "crass copycat" part would only be if Elon insisted that HE invented wheels for oxcarts. But of course, he never claimed anything of the sort.

Actually, I was just thinking about Elon the other day, as I tend to do, and realizing that, rather than the futurist that other people claim on his behalf, he's an old-school industrialist. The heart of what he's doing -- cars, batteries, rocket ships -- has been around since before any of us were born. Even geezers as old as us! LOL

Elon's innovations are mostly along the lines of fit and finish, economies of scale, and business acumen profound enough to merit being called revolutionary -- but an inventor? Not so far. Has he claimed that he is? Not that I can remember.

For that matter, he made his first fortune on a way for people to exchange money. Been going on since long before the 13th century. So was taking a slice for facilitating the transfer of funds.

Anyway, with every function that Walter notes above, he's not refuting any of Apple's claims. Apple didn't make any claims about getting there first.

See also: multicam, MP3 players, phones, using phones for payment, watches, cars, streaming music, multimedia appliances, personal computers with graphic interfaces. Apple didn't get there first with any of this, and didn't claim to. Apple's customers claim it, brandishing torches, pitchforks, and adrenaline in comments strings across the interwebs.

Not to say that Apple hasn't iterated some stuff in such a way that honestly does deserve to be called revolutionary over the years. Of course they have. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Or of Apple.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 28, 2016 at 10:41:00 am

[Bill Davis] "It's official then. Elon Musk is nothing more than a crass copycat because Oxcarts had wheels in the 13th century."

There is plenty in FCP X that is innovative. Proxy workflows aren't. I know that great artists steal and all that, but laying claim to a proxy workflow that might well have been originated by Discreet, branding it "X thinking," and then accusing Adobe of being a great artist vis-a-vis Apple strikes me as a bit disingenuous.

I see this "only Apple innovates" fallacy pop up here from time to time. Innovation is not exclusive to any one individual or company. Recognizing someone else's innovation, as I'm trying to do here, in no way diminishes Apple's -- FCP X has a lot that makes it unique -- and vice versa. Borrowing your analogy above, Discreet, ever ahead of their time, invented electric carts in 1203.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 29, 2016 at 7:58:24 pm

Heading off on a business trip on Monday, I knock out, in ten seconds, some planetary size hyperbole - including what is likely the only reference to freaking OXCARTS you will read this decade - and people suddenly treat the post with the gravity of a Papal Encyclical?

Hint: It was just a silly toss off post folks, not a manifesto.

If it twisted your sensibilities, sorry.

Wouldn't wish to do that!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 6:29:38 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I bet Adobe would have been first in line for that sale. ;-)"

Ironically enough, Apple had tried to license Premiere tech (not buying Premiere itself, as has often been reported) as a consumer app to be included on the shiny new bubble(gum) iMacs. Adobe declined, so Apple went shopping for this thing they'd heard about from the guy who originally developed Premiere, now working at Macromedia.

It turns out that flipping Macromedia Final Cut into Apple Final Cut Pro was pretty easy work, so I don't think it's any accident that Randy Ubillos spent most of his heavy lifting at Apple working on iMovie. That was the product Steve had first been looking for, which is why I also think that X was the first pro-focused NLE that Steve was really excited by. Not because it's iMovie Pro (an old joke that I don't think is true), but because it's actually Mac-like, which FCP never was imo.

Which certainly would have made it easier on anyone who was looking to adapt it to their own look and feel. :-)


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 6:45:46 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Tim, we are going to disagree about this for eternity aren't we. Oh well, let's proceed.

[Tim Wilson] "People had 3 months to see what X was about"

Other than the few hundred folks in attendance at the nab event all the rest of us heard were rumors, and of all the rumors, none of us heard that Apple would be releasing a program that A) couldn't open FCP7 files under any circumstances B) was missing a host of essential features for many workflows and C) was discontinuing all sales of FCP7 on the day of X's release.
"


I'd parse that argument as essentially this...

THIS (insert topic) is what I currently have developed expertise about.

If you devalue my EXPERTISE, you devalue me. Whatever else you do - don't devalue my expertise, because that means that going forward, I have to complete not on what I have already learned - but what I have to learn anew, and how fast I can learn it.

THAT, IMO is what actually pissed (and is still pissing people off) about the 2011 X introduction today.

And as I have long argued, conserving knowledge about what has worked well in the past is always valid, UNLESS there there turns out to be significant new advantages to be gained by adapting to a new way of thinking.

If you want to play the traditional games as well as you can, have fun. But if you want to be relevant playing the games that evolve going forward - NOT changing is going to be the larger mistake. I'm more convinced of that today than ever.

Play out the old game. Or learn and participate in the new one.

No right answer - no wrong one.

Just the game best for you.

But it's a hoot that 5 years on, we're still embroiled in this and folks are still using FCP Legacy 5 years on.I just had a business acquaintance send me some FCP 7 screen caps to describe a problem he wanted help with - and it was so weird going back visually into that world. Kinda seemed like looking at my childhood photos peppered with boxy, gas-guzzling cars.

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Steve Connor
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:03:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'd parse that argument as essentially this...

THIS (insert topic) is what I currently have developed expertise about.

If you devalue my EXPERTISE, you devalue me. Whatever else you do - don't devalue my expertise, because that means that going forward, I have to complete not on what I have already learned - but what I have to learn anew, and how fast I can learn it.

THAT, IMO is what actually pissed (and is still pissing people off) about the 2011 X introduction today.

And as I have long argued, conserving knowledge about what has worked well in the past is always valid, UNLESS there there turns out to be significant new advantages to be gained by adapting to a new way of thinking."


I'm pretty sure that's NOT it.


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:32:57 pm

[Steve Connor] "I'm pretty sure that's NOT it."

Well, thanks so much for articulating your reasoning behind the opinion so we can all likewise evaluate your thought process.

(insert sardonic emoji here)

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Steve Connor
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:56:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "[Steve Connor] "I'm pretty sure that's NOT it."

Well, thanks so much for articulating your reasoning behind the opinion so we can all likewise evaluate your thought process.

(insert sardonic emoji here)"


I was in the middle of expanding on my reasoning when Andrew did it for me.

Exactly what he said :)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 7:47:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "If you devalue my EXPERTISE, you devalue me. Whatever else you do - don't devalue my expertise, because that means that going forward, I have to complete not on what I have already learned - but what I have to learn anew, and how fast I can learn it.
"


That was certainly part of it, but certainly not all of it (or even most of it, IMO). When OS X first came out it was bare bones and Apple kept OS 9 around and once OS 9 went away there was OS 9 compatibility w/in OS X for years. If Apple had dropped OS 9 cold turkey there would have been hell to pay. When iMovie '08 dropped, customers weren't pissed because their home movie editing expertise had been devalued, they were pissed because the new version of iMovie had far few features than the existing version of iMovie (and Apple started giving the old version of iMovie away for free as a way to stem the blow back).

With the X launch, if you add up all the parts such as the cold turkey approach to pulling FCP 7 (and most of rest of the suite), the lack of features in X, the inability to go from 7 to X, the lack of a trial version, and the fundamental changes in X you get the nasty fur ball that was the launch of X. The EOLing and removal from the Mac App store of Aperture, by comparison, went smoothly. Was there grumbling? Yes. Was there hurt feelings? Sure. Did the user base go ballistic? Nope. Is anyone going to still be talking about the exact day it happened 5yrs down the road? I highly doubt it.


[Tim Wilson] "But I ESPECIALLY vigorously disagree with the contention that "Other than the few hundred folks in attendance at the nab event all the rest of us heard were rumors." "

It's the information that *wasn't* in the NAB presentation that became the bomb though, Tim. The lack of some pretty standard features at launch, the lack of support for FCP projects, and lack of info that the FCP suite (plus Final Cut Server) would be pulled from store shelves the moment X was launched. Adjust any one of those three things and the X launch goes a lot smoother. It wasn't just one thing, it was the culmination of many things.

Even Adobe going fully subscription (which obviously pissed a lot of people off) would've gone worse if they yanked CS6 from the store the moment they went CC only. When Avid shifted it's business model starting with MC 8, if you bought an MC 8 license it also worked with MC 6 and MC 7. Everyone seemed to look at the X launch and said, "Well, that went poorly" and has tried to avoid that experience. Even Apple.


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 8:18:22 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "lack of info that the FCP suite (plus Final Cut Server) would be pulled from store shelves the moment X was launched."

You.

Can.

Buy.

It.

Today.

Right now. Today. You can have it with free shipping by Sunday, which is miraculous to me. A Sunday in the middle of a three day holiday weekend, for free with your Amazon Prime membership.

For only $8.95, you can have it tomorrow.

For another $3.95, you can have it gift wrapped.

Object to anything and everything you want to. Object to Apple pulling it off shelves. But the idea that it was EVER not available, for a single second, is simply not the case.

It's available now, five years later.


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Herb Sevush
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 8:46:21 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Object to anything and everything you want to. Object to Apple pulling it off shelves. But the idea that it was EVER not available, for a single second, is simply not the case."

When Apple announced the EOL it was not clear that this was going to be true. it was so much more than not clear, it was one of the biggest issues at the time. From our perspective NOW it is clear - but would it have been this way had Apple not done an about face, under pressure from it's larger and more influential user's, and re-instituted sales into the retail chain after stating that there would be -
NO
MORE
AUTHORIZED
SALES
OF
FCP7.
EVER.

Large companies with multiple seats of FCP7 that were planning on adding many more seats in the near future were freaking out. They did not want grey market under the counter versions - they wanted authorized, legal, warrantied versions - and it was not clear for over a month after the EOL that they would be able to get them.

It was also not at all clear that unsupported FCP Legacy would continue to run on subsequent versions of OSX.

From where we stand now it is clear that those fears were unfounded - but that's why hindsight is so much better than 20/20.

So yes, it turns out to be the case that Legacy has always been available and it continues to run, year after year, on the latest OSX upgrades. However the furor about this at the time was reasonable, Apple's initial handling of this issue was deplorable, and because of Apple's tone deaf PR ineptness the lingering hostility to FCPX was inevitable.

Again I ask, if the X role out was so good why are we still having this discussion five years later when the product has matured to the point where it can hold it's own against any other NLE out there?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 8:59:55 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Again I ask, if the X role out was so good why are we still having this discussion five years later when the product has matured to the point where it can hold it's own against any other NLE out there?"

I know a guy who's wife left him 30 years ago - and he still hasn't gotten over it.

He's spent the rest of his life pining for her.

He's a perfectly rational, perfectly attractive guy with all his hair and money in the bank and a steady job (to use a silly trope) and yet he's let THAT largely define his personal life.

At some point, you shrug and move on - or you don't. If you don't and end up on a web forum re-litigating the original hurt multiple years down the road (!).

Isn't this exactly what the internet was built for?

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Herb Sevush
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 9:18:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "I know a guy who's wife left him 30 years ago - and he still hasn't gotten over it.

He's spent the rest of his life pining for her."


You've just described the central thesis of the majority of novels ever written. It's called the human condition. I'm sure he thinks that everyone who wants him to "move on" has simply never been in love.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Roth Weiss
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 9:32:17 pm
Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on May 27, 2016 at 9:46:18 pm

Bingo Herb!!!

Had Apple handled the migration with even a modicum of dignity and respect for their customers, the same love that users still have for their legacy product would still be bestowed on the entire company and its other products. But, I'd bet Apple lost just as many fanboys and fangirls in one day as they've gained in the five years since. (***One need only compare the FCP Forum, both past and present, with this place to see how the level of Apple excitement went from many individuals to just a few - of course that could also be attributed to the relative coolness of the forum leaders on FCP Legacy Forum.)



David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 8:43:45 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "When iMovie '08 dropped, customers weren't pissed because their home movie editing expertise had been devalued, they were pissed because the new version of iMovie had far few features than the existing version of iMovie (and Apple started giving the old version of iMovie away for free as a way to stem the blow back)."

Or they were't pissed AT ALL. A subclass of those with significant video editing expertise limited EXCLUSIVELY to those with iMovie expertise were pissed.

Everyone else on the planet not.

Exactly like the FCP Legacy issue.

A hurt subset of a subset of a subset. Loud,, angry and unwilling to forgive - no matter what may change later. Join the Hatfields or the McCoys - carry the grudge - nobody else really cares? And so it goes.

[Andrew Kimery] "Adjust any one of those three things and the X launch goes a lot smoother. It wasn't just one thing, it was the culmination of many things.
"


I believe Tim's contention has always been that making sticking with Legacy "smoother" would have been a MUCH worse call.

In that, I tend to agree with him.

I'm following a 20something young lady who does nice X tutorials in cyberspace. The idea she'd be doing that if her learning curve had been "grok Legacy or Premiere fully before you can get your ideas on the web... kinda makes me smile.

She's succeeding clearly because she has "enjoyed" editing from day one.

Exactly as the magnetic timeline imagined. Remove friction from between the person with the ideas and being able to competently express them. For her, it's about video creation for her peers wishing to aggregate YouTube channel subscribers. And it's some younger person in a Dean Witter office someplace else vlogging to his clients about "sustainable investing." or something similar. Or not.

We can all conceptualize THAT as taking your job, or see it as perhaps displacing a mailed circular pasteup artists job, or even as creating a job that was never there before.

Who knows.

And so it goes.

New signature under construction and coming soon. Please stand by...


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 28, 2016 at 1:28:25 am

Skimmed the thread and just a drive-by posting (for now). ;)

[Tim Wilson] "Unlike me, you actually work for a living, so I'll ask you. Is it now easier to find a job in LA with Premiere than X?"

Based just on job postings I've seen there is much more work for PPro in LA and NYC than X (FWIW I mainly look in the doc/unscripted sections though scripted in LA is still almost exclusively Avid). FCP Legend seems to have finally dropped off the map and I think most of those places have gone to PPro. Avid is still being used at bigger places, but the mid-sized and smaller places seem to have mainly shifted over to PPro. To be totally honest (and I'm sure I'm going to incur somebody's wrath with this), I've seen more posts for spanish or mandarin speaking editors (for Avid or PPro) than I have for X editors over the past few months.

X job postings seemed to start picking up last fall/winter but I've been seeing fewer and fewer of them since then.


[Tim Wilson] "You.

Can.

Buy.

It.

Today."


[Bill Davis] "I believe Tim's contention has always been that making sticking with Legacy "smoother" would have been a MUCH worse call.

In that, I tend to agree with him."


Bill and Tim, you guys are proving my point. :)

1. Apple yanked FCP 7 overnight w/o warning from all official retail channels when X launched, and that is one the things that made people mad.

2. After 2-3 months Apple back tracked and whatever copies were sitting in warehouses became available again (though that change couldn't undo the fact that they pulled it in the first place).

3. To Tim's point, FCP 7 has been for sale along side X for almost 100% of X's existence.

4. Has this nearly 100% co-existence negatively impacted the adoption of X? I'm going to say no. What do you guys say?

5. If this nearly 100% co-existence has not negatively impacted the adoption of X then what did Apple gain by yanking FCP 7 overnight w/o warning other than bad PR? If Apple had left FCP 7 available for purchase, the same way Adobe left C6 available for purchase, the launch of X would've gone smoother than it did, the adaption of X would not have been hampered, and it would've been a win/win for Apple.

[Bill Davis] "Or they were't pissed AT ALL. A subclass of those with significant video editing expertise limited EXCLUSIVELY to those with iMovie expertise were pissed."

Or people actually were upset because basic things like importing from DV and being able to play footage in reverse were gone. iMovie '08 got dinged in reviews and by users because it dropped so many features (most of which were brought back in iMovie '09). I've been a member of MR for a long time and a lot people weren't happy about how many features that version of iMovie lacked.

Whether or not you agree with my assessment of the how many people were upset though is beside the point though because ultimately it was enough to make Apple react to it. Apple should have learned from the iMovie '08 release and changed their approach, but they basically did the same thing with the X launch and got the same result (user backlash they then had to quell). Apple finally changed tactics with the Aperture/Photos hand-off and that went much smoother than the iMovie or X hand-offs. Are Aperture users just not as invested in their tools as iMovie or FCP users? Or could it be that users react more positively when they don't get the rug pulled out from under them?


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 28, 2016 at 4:09:57 am

Hey for now, all I'm going to say is that I apologize for my tone. Reading it back now, I was a lot more of a dick than I meant to be. You all deserve better than that from me.

So I'm going to put myself in a time out, and I'll be back tomorrow to engage in a more appropriate manner.

Im the meantime, I'm reading along. :-)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 21, 2016 at 4:58:08 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " Apple should have learned from the iMovie '08 release and changed their approach, but they basically did the same thing with the X launch and got the same result (user backlash they then had to quell)."

I'm just gonna quote myself here (hope nobody minds)... Apparently someone learned from the iMovie '08 release but was unsuccessful in convincing others at Apple that history would repeat itself.

From an new interview with Randy Ubillios:

"My idea was that Final Cut 7 should stay exactly as it was for about a year, and every time you bought a copy of X you got a copy of 7. They didn’t want to hear it. I knew 16 months before the launch that I was going to have a bunch of arrows in my back. I was going to be blamed for this big transition.
.
.
.
... Steve caught me at home: “What the heck is going on with this Final Cut X thing?” I said “We knew this was coming, we knew that people were going to freak out when we changed everything out from under them. We could have done this better. We should have. Final Cut 7 should be back on the market. We should have an FAQ that lists what this is all about.” He said “Yeah, let’s get out and fund this thing, let’s make sure we get on top of this thing, move quickly with releases…” and he finished by asking: “Do you believe in this?” I said “Yes.” He said “then I do too.”

http://alex4d.com/notes/item/back-to-1-0-randy-ubillos-interview


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Tony West
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 28, 2016 at 3:27:26 pm

It wasn't all Apple.

Most people were not in that room for the sneak peek and the ones that I saw were clapping.

One of the main things that hurt this product were one-sided reviews that only talked about what the program couldn't do, and none of what it could do.

It was missing features but it was better than 7 in other ways.

It's 64 bit made things faster.
The skimmer made things faster
The organization made things faster
The connected clips made swapping things faster.
Having all those audio tools inside the program made things faster.
Being able to hover over effects before you applied them made things faster.

It had a lot going for it but people didn't hear any of that. All they heard was one-sided. Not to mention people giving their "reviews" online who flat-out didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

All I did was go to work and tell people what the program could do. They liked what they heard and decided to try it and never looked back. Some didn't like it and went to Pr

What Apple should have done was have their people out there day one to counter those people with what the program "could" do, instead of relying on people like me to do their job for them.

People didn't have all the information to make an objective decision. They just had part of it.

Most people I spoke with had never opened the program because they didn't hear anything positive about it.

If everybody had tried it and didn't like it, that would be one thing. But it didn't go down like that.

I have a good memory.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 28, 2016 at 5:32:08 pm
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on May 28, 2016 at 6:03:33 pm

soory erased comment. had many tabs open and placed comment in wrong forum.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 30, 2016 at 6:35:17 am

[Herb Sevush] "It's called the human condition"

And that's what Apple, under Jobs, was so masterful at manipulating (which adds to the glaring nature of how rough the X launch went). I mean, with a straight face and sincerity Jobs called the iPad "magical" and the tech community just swooned in response, preorders flooded store.apple.com and people prepared to campout in front of their Apple store. That emotional door swings two ways though.


[Tim Wilson] "I was a lot more of a dick than I meant to be.

Emphatic, yes, but I didn't think you came off as a dick. Although it seems you wanted to come off at least somewhat like a dick but you dicked it up. ;)



[Tony West] "If everybody had tried it and didn't like it, that would be one thing. But it didn't go down like that. "

I agree that it's not all Apple's fault, but what you are describing is a given though and is applicable whether you are talking about NLEs, video game consoles, cars or power tools. Companies have to take that into consideration and do their best to mitigate it, and I just don't think Apple had a very good game plan in place. IMO the sudden takeover of the NAB Supermeet at the last minute was the first sign of trouble/disorganization within Apple. Now that I say that, it was more like the second sign of trouble. The first sign was the super weak update to the ProApps in 2009. Like many people I assumed FCP was coasting because Apple was busy doing a ground up rewrite since FCP was getting long in the tooth. And like many people I expected that ground up rewrite to be FCP 8, not FCP X. Many users had been waiting since 2007 for a meaningful update (Tim would say waiting since 2005 for a meaningful update) and that was just another facet that helped create the perfect storm of explosive conditions for the X launch.

I think that's what fascinates me about the launch is all the different factors that were in play and if even one of the factors wasn't present (or at least dramatically reduced) then I think the launch, while still rough, wouldn't have turned into the event that it did.


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Herb Sevush
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 27, 2016 at 9:13:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'd parse that argument as essentially this..."

Your parsing isn't pleasing ...

[Bill Davis] "If you devalue my EXPERTISE, you devalue me."

This particular thread isn't about me, my expertise, or my choice of deodorant. It's about the three main things the NAB demo didn't prepare anyone for - No compatibility with Legacy, missing features, immediate EOL of Legacy. These are facts, they fueled the anger because (unlike many of the other comments at the time) they were true and eventually Apple acted to address these concerns but they were a little late putting out the fire. Had Apple announced that Legacy sales would continue, even after development had stopped, that future versions of OSX would support Legacy and had they published the "white paper" outlining the timetable for returning missing features to FCPX on the day of the release and not a month later, the outcry would have been substantially less than it was. Legacy users who do not like the X paradigm would still have been upset, but they would have been reassured that they still had a way forward.

[Bill Davis] "If you want to play the traditional games as well as you can, have fun. But if you want to be relevant playing the games that evolve going forward - NOT changing is going to be the larger mistake. I'm more convinced of that today than ever."

I don't know what games you are playing Bill but I make video programming for people to watch. My work is not dependent on any particular piece of software or hardware, it is dependent on my understanding of story structure, a form that hasn't changed much since the Illiad. My last word on this subject comes from Godard who stated that "a story should have a beginning, a middle and an end, but not necessarily in that order."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 28, 2016 at 1:06:30 am

[Tim Wilson] "I'm sure that this is a regional thing, and Hollywood is its own thing, but I know that Bob Zelin has reported that Orlando is virtually an all-Premiere town. Not even Avid is worth as much there anymore."

At our semi-regular Orlando Post Pro meetings we have from time to time asked for a show of hands for FCPX users. The other night at our NAB Wrap-up meeting, that show of hands went from 1 or 2 to several. Not a huge leap, but actually a trend as it's been in the 1 or 2 range for most of the time until now.

There are actually a few places (not just individuals) that are set-up around FCPX. However, by and large the area is shifting to Premiere Pro CC more so than anything else. In some cases from FCP legacy and in other cases from Avid.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Rofrano
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 28, 2016 at 4:11:24 pm

[Tim Wilson] "FWIW, our friend John Rofrano had posted this in the COW's Vegas forum last night. He was one of the true giants in those circles, but transitioned his own work onto FCPX a while back. Hopefully he'll weigh in with some insights that will outweigh mine. :-)"
I'm not sure that I am worthy of that introduction but I humbly accept the invitation to comment. ;-)

For those of you who don’t know me, I am a long time Vegas Pro user from back when it was Sonic Foundry Vegas Video 3 on up to Sony Vegas Pro 13. I am also the developer who, along with Douglas Spotted Eagle, has created all of the plug-ins that VASST makes for Vegas Pro (e.g., Ultimate S Pro, Caption Assistant, ScatterShot 3D, GearShift, Fasst Apps. etc.). With VASST I also created DVD training for Vegas Pro and DVD Architect and ACID Pro. I create training for Boris FX's Boris TV Continuum Complete for Vegas Pro episodes. I also developed Vegas Pro Production Assistant which carries a Sony logo so, as you might imagine, VASST and Sony have a close partnership going back to the Sonic Foundry days so I’m more than a user, I am a Sony partner. (in the interest of full disclosure)

Sonic Foundry Vegas Video (as it was known before Sony acquired it) was the best "multi-media" editor bar none. I carefully used the term “multi-media” because calling it an NLE would be selling it short. Vegas Pro started out as a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) called Vegas Audio and for a while Vegas Audio and Vegas Video were two separate products until they were later joined. What that means is that to this day, Vegas Pro has audio capabilities equivalent to ProTools and some people still use it for live and studio multi-track recording. It has Audio Buses and Audio FX Sends and Automation with Touch, Latch, Write capabilities. Needless to say no other NLE can come close to this, so Vegas Pro editors do all of their audio work right in Vegas. I can route my tracks to buses for dialog, music, and sfx, and have complete control over the levels of each.

As an NLE it has a wide range of options for adding FX. You can add FX to the underlying media of a clip which affects all clips that use that media (great for initial color correcting/balancing). You can add FX to the clip itself. You can add FX to the track which affects all clips on the track, and you can add FX to the Master Video Bus which affects the whole project. So ensuring that a project is broadcast safe or adding timecode to a project to send to a customer to review is a simple matter of dropping an FX on the Master Video Bus and the entire project is instantly affected. Other NLE’s don’t even have this bus concept but because Vegas Pro was an audio editor at it’s core, and summing buses are at the core of all DAWs, it has these capabilities. This flexibility is what attracted me to Vegas Pro.

I called it a “multi-media” video editor also because I remember back in 2005 watching Douglas Spotted Eagle demo Vegas to a group here in NYC that included several Final Cut Pro editors. He had a timeline loop playing and he was throwing media of all different codecs, frame rates, and sizes at it and it just kept playing without missing beat. They were amazed that #1 it was playing native formats, and #2 they were different resolutions and Vegas simply resized them to fit the project, and #3 they were different frame rates and Vegas compensated on-the-fly and then… Then he placed an animated GIF on the timeline above a video track. An animated GIF! and it animated on the timeline with transparency!!! I think it was a flying bat or bird or something and when the bird was flapping it’s wings with the video playing behind it I think the FCP editors almost fainted. They were awe struck. They couldn’t approach anything like that in FCP which required them to conform and transform everything before they dare place anything on the timeline. Sorry but us Vegas Pro editors would chuckle when we saw other NLE’s announce new features like “plays native media”, or "now supports mixed frame rates" when Vegas Pro had been doing this since day 1.

What makes Vegas Pro so special, is that Sonic Foundry dared to "Think Different" from the beginning. Other NLE’s tried to make editing with a computer familiar so they implemented artifacts that resembled “real” editing artifacts from the days of celluloid, video tape, cutting blocks, razors, and film bins. By doing so, they severely limited the software’s capability to working within that mindset. If the first word processors were implemented the same way, our computer would ring a bell when we hit 80 characters on a line and we would have to press RETURN to go to the next line and reach for the white-out icon and rub it over the screen to fix our mistakes. Ridiculous as that might sound... That’s EXACTLY what every NLE manufacturer did!!! And we were all happy to see our familiar razors and bins and we were all doomed to never transcend the physical world into a world of what video editing *could* be on a computer.

Vegas Pro was the FCP X of it’s day. It did not follow the 3-Point Editing convention of other NLE’s (and this is one of the reasons why traditional editors snubbed their noses at it). You dropped stuff into the timeline and if you moved the end of one clip over the other it magically made a crossfade transition. You didn’t have to look for a menu item to get things done, you manipulated the media directly. It was organic. Like working with clay. This is why I loved it. (This is why I love FCP X!) Vegas Pro had a Media Manager that cataloged all of your media, added meta-tags, and made it queriable much like FCP X does today. Vegas Pro’s Media Manager even had a query that answered the question, “What other projects have I used this media with?” It was a true external database and could show you all the ways that you used that media (great for stock libraries). But very few editors took advantage of it. They couldn’t wrap their heads around the power of metadata. It was later demoted to an optional component that you didn't even need to install.

To me FCP X is what Vegas Pro could have been had Sony not bought Sonic Foundry and focused them more on supporting Sony hardware than adding editing features that their customers wanted.

Which brings me to the insights on the MAGIX acquisition that Tim was hoping for…

Sonic Foundry was very customer driven. They listened to the community and they built an NLE for everyone else that didn’t want the razor blades and bins paradigm. They were very responsive. Then Sony purchased them and the small Sonic Foundry team was suddenly part of a major corporation and someone else was pulling the strings. It seems to me that Sony Japan had their own agenda for the Sonic Foundry team and wanted their camera equipment and formats supported (which is understandable). So a lot of work went into that. Vegas Pro got support for XDCAM and other Sony formats. I was the first NLE to be 64-bit and to support HD and 4K which was a good thing. Unfortunately, I was also the first NLE to support 3D. Nobody asked for it. Nobody wanted it. There were plenty of bugs to be fixed in the core code and new features to be added but that’s not what we got. We got 3D. This was clearly not a customer driven decision. Sony was making 3D cameras and they needed a 3D editor. The community was upset.

So… The sale to MAGIX is HUGE! MAGIX is a small company like Sonic Foundry was. Those Sonic Foundry employees that survived Sony and moved to MAGIX are going to get their spark back and I have confidence they are going to do wonderful things. MAGIX seems to be very customer focused. The Vegas Pro community (who is about the most loyal community that I have ever had the pleasure to be part of) is optimistic that MAGIX is going to continue to develop and support the most productive NLE that they have ever used with Gary Rebholz (from Sonic Foundry days) at the helm. This is a very positive development.

Vegas Pro was never meant to be used by Hollywood. (btw, it has been used on several indie films) It is designed for the lone-wolf editor. It is purposefully built to do-it-all. Need to mix 24 track audio… Vegas Pro can do that. Need to cut a 30 minute episode with 32 tracks of video, Vegas Pro can do that… need to add 3D compositing… Vegas Pro can do that too. There is pretty much no reason to leave Vegas Pro to use other tools which is why lone editors love it. An all-in-one tool for the all-in-one editor.

I edit with FCP X now not because anything is wrong with Vegas Pro. I edit with FCP X because several years ago I converted to Mac for other reasons (I develop technology for cloud computing and Windows is a horrible platform for open source developers) and I got tired of requiring a Windows VM to run Vegas Pro so I looked for a Mac native solution and tried FCP X and instantly fell in love with it because it is NOT like Premiere, Avid, or FCP 7. It is a LOT like Vegas Pro. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Steve Connor
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 28, 2016 at 5:06:40 pm

Great post John! I wonder if the new owners are considering a Mac version


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John Rofrano
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 30, 2016 at 2:11:24 pm

[Steve Connor] "I wonder if the new owners are considering a Mac version"
That would be interesting indeed.

Here is the problem: Two years ago Sony Creative Software started down a new path with the Catalyst Suite lineup. There is Catalyst Browse, Catalyst Prepare, and Catalyst Edit. All of them run on both Mac and PC. So we all thought that this would be the Mac re-write of Vegas Pro because Vegas Pro hasn't been updated in two years while this was going on. But SCS continues to deny this and holds fast to the statement that Catalyst is not a replacement for Vegas Pro. Now they have sold Vegas Pro but kept Catalyst Suite. Also Catalyst Suite just adopted a subscription model quite like Adobe. They chose the ransomware model. You stop paying... the software stops working. The Vegas Pro community would have none of that because that model doesn't work for hobbyists which make up a fair share the community. There are also a lot of editors using outdated versions who don't feel that there are any new features that they need and won't pay for upgrades. This is a big problem when software matures.

As it stands now, Vegas Pro is a poster child for Microsoft technology. They are deeply intrenched in Video for Windows (VFW), DirectShow, .Net Framework, C#, MS-SQL Express for media management. I mean you name a proprietary Microsoft technology and they have built on top of it. That doesn't speak well for a port to Mac. Had they chose more "open" technologies it might have been feasible. One good thing they did recently was move away from Direct X onto OpenFX and OpenCL. But a Mac version would need to be a complete re-write using more open technology. It will be interesting to see what MAGIX does with this codebase. Who knows, maybe they will re-write it for both Mac and PC.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Dennis Radeke
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 29, 2016 at 6:15:54 pm

[John Rofrano] "It has Audio Buses and Audio FX Sends and Automation with Touch, Latch, Write capabilities. Needless to say no other NLE can come close to this, so Vegas Pro editors do all of their audio work right in Vegas."

Certainly, Vegas has always had a strong reputation for doing audio and its heritage as a Sound Forge program certainly supports that. When I was a kid in the early days of audio software, sonic foundry was a real player for a while.

As it relates to the above quote, it wasn't the only one though... All of these things were in Premiere Pro 1.0 which was 2003 (or perhaps 1.5) and included 5.1 surround sound to boot.

Dennis - Adobe Guy


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Bill Davis
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on May 29, 2016 at 9:13:16 pm

Then according to the Transitive Property of Internet Discussions - Randy Ubillos created Sony Vegas!

Did not know that...

; )

New signature under construction and coming soon. Please stand by...


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 26, 2016 at 12:32:20 pm

Dennis, I'm not sure that Adobe (whose products I own and use on about 30% of my work) should be shouting too loudly about audio capabilities. A search for 'Premiere Pro audio drops out' will lead to long standing problems that they have.

Also the inability to store a preset for something as basic as a compressor should be an embarrassment.

I've never used Vegas in anger but the audio side of it has always been streets ahead of Adobe/Apple/Avid/Blackmagic/Autodesk/Quantel etc. Good luck to Magix in their endeavours.

70% of my work is Avid ( Baselight & Fusion plug-ins are keeping that interesting). Still keeping an open mind on FCPX but no sign of it in the wild for me.



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Herb Sevush
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 26, 2016 at 12:54:38 pm

[Trevor Asquerthian] "Also the inability to store a preset for something as basic as a compressor should be an embarrassment."

I store compressor presets in Ppro, what are you talking about?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 26, 2016 at 8:06:20 pm

[Herb Sevush] "
I store compressor presets in Ppro, what are you talking about?"


Audio Track Mixer | FX | Amplitude & Compression | Dynamics - I don't know anyway of storing a compressor setup once tweaked . I suspect you are talking about video file compression settings, but live in hope...



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Herb Sevush
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 28, 2016 at 3:41:51 pm

[Trevor Asquerthian] "Audio Track Mixer | FX | Amplitude & Compression | Dynamics - I don't know anyway of storing a compressor setup once tweaked"

Can't seem to do it with the effects that come with premiere, but can definitely do it with third party VST plug-ins. This company makes a batch of free audio plug-ins as a come on to get you to purchase their larger set of plug ins - their compressor is better than what comes with Ppro and you can save pre-sets inside of Ppro.

https://www.meldaproduction.com/product/keyword?keyword=free

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 28, 2016 at 4:24:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Can't seem to do it with the effects that come with premiere, but can definitely do it with third party VST plug-ins. This company makes a batch of free audio plug-ins as a come on to get you to purchase their larger set of plug ins"

The fact that one needs to rely on 3rd parties to get this type of function in an NLE is so unprofessional!

I'm KIDDING! :-)

Thanks for the link Herb, nice set of freebies and a nice addition to Pr. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 28, 2016 at 4:34:22 pm

[Charlie Austin] "The fact that one needs to rely on 3rd parties to get this type of function in an NLE is so unprofessional!"

I'll tell you what's a PITA in Ppro - that while you can save presets for EFX, especially video EFX, there is no way to save presets, or defaults, for video transitions. I have certain video transitions that are part of the look of the show and I have to go in and tweak every parameter every time -- grrrr, makes me think of switching to X ....

I'm KIDDING! :-)

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 28, 2016 at 5:22:06 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I have certain video transitions that are part of the look of the show and I have to go in and tweak every parameter every time -- grrrr, makes me think of switching to X ...."

lol... no need to switch, just use whatever works. :-) And while you can of course have a default transitions in X, the only way to save "custom" transitions is to create them in Motion. It's a very cool way of doing it, but do I miss the quick FCP 7 drag transition to favorites folder method when I'm in a hurry. Which is always...

Now saving Effects presets in X made from any combination of Video Effects and Transform Parameters? Very nice.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Tim Wilson
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 28, 2016 at 6:07:23 pm

[Charlie Austin] "lol... no need to switch, just use whatever works. :-) And while you can of course have a default transitions in X, the only way to save "custom" transitions is to create them in Motion. "

U ppl need to check out Boris FX, which comes in a big ol' pile of plugz or nifty little cheap slices, works great in scazillions of host applications including FCPX, Motion, After Effects, Premiere, Media Composer, and OFX applications like Resolve...and many others.

Which means that, Herb, the presets you make in Premiere will also work when you switch to FCPX, and Charlie, the presets you make in Motion will carry over to your work in Media Composer. LOL


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Charlie Austin
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 28, 2016 at 6:29:11 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Charlie, the presets you make in Motion will carry over to your work in Media Composer. LOL"

Perfect! Actually, I dig Boris's stuff, and did check them out. As usual, they look great but, well I'm no cheapskate (hell, I *bought* MC and I really never use it), but 700 (or 1200 so I can use them across NLE's) is... a bit much.

It sucks, but, -- For FCP X anyway -- many of the bits in there are available for free or pretty inexpensively. It would be totally worth it in a multi NLE environment, sorta like the Red Giant Universe pile of stuff.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 29, 2016 at 6:24:58 am

+1 for Boris. I am using OFX Continuum in Resolve and so many goodies in the program.


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John Rofrano
Re: OT Sony sells Vegas?
on Jun 29, 2016 at 12:25:11 pm

[Michael Gissing] "+1 for Boris"
+1

Boris just asked me to create some new training for BCC10 in FCP X which was just announced. Look for it soon. ;-)

If there is anything in Boris Continuum Complete that you'd like to see training for in FCP X just let me know and I'll ask Boris if I can produce it. I also create the BCC training for Vegas Pro for them. I've been using Boris FX for a long time and really like the power of these plug-ins. The new BCC Grunge is one of my personal favorites.

Here are two Boris TV episodes that I did for Vegas Pro using BCC Grunge (this is a Vegas Pro Thread after all) ;-)













I hope to produce something similar for FCP X.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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