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Ricardo Marty
quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 2:56:49 am
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on Apr 21, 2016 at 3:13:42 am

All cc systens are compromised. Apple will not fix it and adobe hasnt offered a clue. Of course not being on the internet could mitigate posible damage but the creative cloud is internet

http://fortune.com/2016/04/19/adobe-quicktime-windows-apple/?xid=yahoo_fort...


Ricardo Marty


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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 4:41:30 am

[Ricardo Marty] "All cc systens are compromised."

No they are not. Only Windows systems running QT are potentially compromised (the vulnerabilities were found in a lab, not in the wild). If you are using on a Mac you don't have to worry because Apple only left the Windows users out to dry. Using/not using CC has nothing to do with this.

[Ricardo Marty] " adobe hasnt offered a clue."

Have any other companies that make video software offered a clue? From what I've read Avid is in a worse bind than Adobe. I'm not sure how dependent Resolve, Lightworks, etc., are on QT. But is it really their responsibility to offer a clue when it comes to patching another company's software?

[Ricardo Marty] " Of course not being on the internet could mitigate posible damage but the creative cloud is internet"

CC only has to phone home once every 99 days so I'd say putting the machine on the Interent for a few seconds every three months is pretty low risk.


If anything this situation underscores Walter Soyka's point, which he has brought up many times, that the industry needs to adopt open standards because you never know when the owner of the proprietary tech is going to disappear or just decide to pick up their ball and go home.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 4:53:00 am

Im only talking about windows and specialy cc. Might be once every 99 days but it takes very little to screwup a system. But thats not the only problem. How do they substitue codecs that use qt? How do they rework all that has to be worked mostly all their window stuff. Its becoming a poison cloud.

Ricardo Marty


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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 8:16:36 am

[Ricardo Marty] "How do they substitue codecs that use qt? How do they rework all that has to be worked mostly all their window stuff."

That's what they are working on. As is Avid. As Resolve and Lightworks and every other company that got bit in the butt by Apple deciding to only support QT on OS X but not on Windows. It's not an Adobe-centric problem.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 10:52:42 am

Well, it's a simple fix. Adobe and Avid must stop developing for the PC and work with Macs only. Simple, right?

;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Ricardo Marty
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 12:01:35 pm
Last Edited By Ricardo Marty on Apr 21, 2016 at 12:04:08 pm

For a company that has placesed its future on the on the internet its a major situation. And no your our risk is not every 99 days. Its every time me need to internet access.

Ricardo Marty


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Gary Huff
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 2:32:17 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "For a company that has placesed its future on the on the internet its a major situation. "

No it's not. You act like simply being on the Internet is going to blow up your machine. That's simply fear-mongering. I flew by the seat of my pants on Windows for years (and it's much better now than it used to be even), and did not have a problem.

Why?

Because I'm not ignorant. I don't just click around like I'm machine-gunning the mouse, accepting every thing that wants to download while I blindly click around Google search results of a dubiously legal nature.

If you keep Windows updated, use Security Essentials, and don't just automatically click every DOC, RAR, and EXE sent your way by people you don't even know, then you're going to avoid a lot of that.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 5:59:50 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "For a company that has placesed its future on the on the internet its a major situation. And no your our risk is not every 99 days. Its every time me need to internet access."

You seem to be trying really hard to blame Adobe for security holes in Apple's software. A Windows machine with QT installed is potentially at risk even if there's not a single piece of Adobe software in sight.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 6:26:08 pm

No where have i been blaming adobe at all. Just saying how vulnerable it is. And how somethig like this can potencialy affect its business model if not its image. Not saying that it will. But adobe has not commented on this. This by itself can be more damaging.

Ricardo Marty


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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 6:39:32 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "No where have i been blaming adobe at all. Just saying how vulnerable it is. And how somethig like this can potencialy affect its business model if not its image. Not saying that it will. But adobe has not commented on this. This by itself can be more damaging.
"


How is Adobe any more or less vulnerable than any other piece of software running on Windows that utilizes QT? It's just odd that you keep singling out Adobe over and over and over again.

And Adobe *has* commented on this. To be the best of my knowledge Avid, BM, Lightworks, etc., have not. Go to the official Avid boards and you'll see users asking Avid to officially comment on it like Adobe already has.

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/quicktime-on-windows/


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Walter Soyka
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 28, 2016 at 10:07:01 am

[Andrew Kimery] " To be the best of my knowledge Avid, BM, Lightworks, etc., have not. Go to the official Avid boards and you'll see users asking Avid to officially comment on it like Adobe already has.
"


Update: Avid just commented the day before yesterday.

http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/How_To/QuickTime-Support-and-Secur...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Christian Schumacher
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 28, 2016 at 4:17:34 pm

I wonder what kind of gremlins will rise up on dual platform media software when the Win side has no quicktime any longer, but at the same time, that software on the Mac side remains quicktime dependant?


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 28, 2016 at 4:28:25 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "I wonder what kind of gremlins will rise up on dual platform media software when the Win side has no quicktime any longer, but at the same time, that software on the Mac side remains quicktime dependant?"

Actually neither side will be QT-dependant. Apple already has moved off of QT in its Pro Apps. That's been so for several years now. Avid and Adobe are working to replace QT components across the board so there won't be any dependencies there. Just because a media file is wrapped in a .mov container does not mean that it can't be accessed or modified by other applications without being QT-dependent.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Christian Schumacher
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 28, 2016 at 4:39:44 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Actually neither side will be QT-dependant. Apple already has moved off of QT in its Pro Apps. That's been so for several years now. Avid and Adobe are working to replace QT components across the board so there won't be any dependencies there. Just because a media file is wrapped in a .mov container does not mean that it can't be accessed or modified by other applications without being QT-dependent."


Thanks, Oliver. But what about software like Nuke, Smoke/Maya or Resolve/Fusion? Is it the same reasoning?


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 28, 2016 at 4:43:16 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "But what about software like Nuke, Smoke/Maya or Resolve/Fusion? Is it the same reasoning?"

There have all known this for years, so yes, each must modify their software - if they haven't already - to deal with this.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 6:19:54 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "You seem to be trying really hard to blame Adobe for security holes in Apple's software. A Windows machine with QT installed is potentially at risk even if there's not a single piece of Adobe software in sight."

Wait, wasn't the "security vulnerability" outside Quicktime per se - the flaw was in how the software interacts with the Windows OS? It's been years since Apple migrated from QT to Core/AVFoundation, its not like anybody should have been surprised that moth holes were appearing in the older systems.

I'm not smart enough to understand whether the vulnerability was in the work Apple did, or a flaw in the underlying Windows OS that allowed the breech, but QT is pretty pervasive and the breech is ONLY relative to that platform. So I think it's far to question whether the code flaw is totally Apple's fault. After all, it stood for decades without much vulnerability. And suddenly after all those years, it's the problem?

Given that the freeking FBI just asked Apple to build in a backdoor to the MacOS - and Apple refused - it's pretty obvious that they consider security issues to be completely "mission critical."

So wouldn't YOU have deprecated Quicktime for Windows just the same if it was your call?

The risk/reward thing seems obviously not about video editing, or even Quicktime per se. It's about the entire Apple software brand.

It sucks that the exposed flaw results in this type of impact to a sub class of a sub class of users that we all belong to. But on balance, I'd sure rather they made sure the whole freekin' OS is secure - than just make it easier for me to share files with Windows folk.

Or am I getting this somehow wrong and Apple should be raked over the coals for not seeing this coming back 15 years when they designed QT?

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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 6:35:04 pm

[Bill Davis] "Or am I getting this somehow wrong and Apple should be raked over the coals for not seeing this coming back 15 years when they designed QT?"

Okay. I was just questioning why Ricardo kept pointing the finger at Adobe. There are security holes in Apple's software and the only fix is to uninstall said software. Is that info inaccurate? Maybe it's all Apples fault. Maybe it's all MS's fault. Maybe it's both their faults. If you want to speculate about why, and float conspiracy theories, isn't it convenient that the security flaws only impact Apple's competitors and not Apple?

Regardless, I can't see how Adobe is at fault for any of this which was my only point.


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Ricardo Marty
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 9:26:50 pm

I was pointing a finger towards adobe because i was taking about adobe even though i know most if not all win nle use qt as far as i know.

Ricardo Marty


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Bill Davis
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 23, 2016 at 12:48:24 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Regardless, I can't see how Adobe is at fault for any of this which was my only point."

And your point is well taken.

It's not Adobe's fault.

And it's not Apple's fault.

The reason I know this is that the whole thing is currently a massive tempest in a teapot since the ENTIRE debate revolves around a theoretical vulnerability that nobody's encountered in the wild yet. AFAIK nobody has lost a SINGLE pixel of data based on this whole thing.

Yet people are talking about it like it's the coming apocalypse and that the ONLY THING TO DO TO REMAIN SAFE - is to start de-installing everything right down to your aunts wedding pictures.

The whole thing makes me think of THIS.

Those durn Christian Science Monitor knuckleheads with their "reasoning" and all...







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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 8:48:15 pm

[Bill Davis] "the whole thing is currently a massive tempest in a teapot "

That's the Internet in a nutshell. ;)


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Walter Soyka
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 26, 2016 at 10:54:01 am

[Bill Davis] "I'm not smart enough to understand whether the vulnerability was in the work Apple did, or a flaw in the underlying Windows OS that allowed the breech, but QT is pretty pervasive and the breech is ONLY relative to that platform. So I think it's far to question whether the code flaw is totally Apple's fault. After all, it stood for decades without much vulnerability. And suddenly after all those years, it's the problem? "

The flaw is totally Apple's fault.

1) They fixed an extremely similar flaw that existed in both Windows and OS X in July of last year:
https://blog.fortinet.com/post/fortiguard-labs-discloses-apple-quicktime-he...

2) If Apple is not responsible for this flaw because the OS allows it, then Apple would be responsible for every single Adobe Acrobat or Flash vulnerability on the Mac platform, by the same logic. And there are a great many of those...

It's entirely possible that this vulnerability has been there for years, undetected. Remember that at this point, this is purely security research and there is no known exploit of this vulnerability.


[Bill Davis] "Given that the freeking FBI just asked Apple to build in a backdoor to the MacOS - and Apple refused - it's pretty obvious that they consider security issues to be completely "mission critical." ... So wouldn't YOU have deprecated Quicktime for Windows just the same if it was your call? Or am I getting this somehow wrong and Apple should be raked over the coals for not seeing this coming back 15 years when they designed QT?"

Apple was first notified of this bug in November of 2015 by the security researchers. They quietly ended support [link] for QuickTime for Windows two months later when they released a security update that did not address this vulnerability. They just got around to redirecting [link] the main QuickTime download page to reflect this fact sometime in the last few days, after the Internet storm. Even then, the new "Where to get answers about QuickTime 7 or QuickTime 7 Pro" doesn't mention the unresolved security issues which Apple has known about for almost six months now.

Bugs happen. It's a vendors response that counts for me. And I do think the standard should be pretty high for "platforms" like QuickTime, Acrobat and Flash.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 26, 2016 at 5:53:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Bugs happen. It's a vendors response that counts for me. And I do think the standard should be pretty high for "platforms" like QuickTime, Acrobat and Flash."

Okay then.

All the virus issues that have ever plagued Windows over the past 30 years, are exclusively Microsoft's fault?

I'm being snarky, yes, but Apple very publicly jettisoned Quicktime as being the foundational core of their video systems half a decade ago.

If somebody is still operating on Win98, I'm not sure how much of any malware problems that user experiences can be laid EXCLUSIVELY at Microsofts feet.

At some point, you've GOT to modernize.

Again, so far as I've heard, not one user has lost one frame of data to this "huge security hole" that's being screamed about.

So people appear to have ample time to address these issues. Just as they have ample time to read and adapt to the issues on the PC side.

In this era, where both manufacturing and troubleshooting have migrated to a 24-7 thing from the days when a software update was perhaps a once every year or two thing. It's just something we all have to get used to.

Discovered vulnerabilities, performance bottlenecks, advances that both DO and DO NOT come with associated gotchas - that's the new order of things. Like it or not, software is now more of a JIT delivery thing.

Something we simply have to get used to on all sides.

Just my 2 cents.

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Walter Soyka
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 27, 2016 at 5:54:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "All the virus issues that have ever plagued Windows over the past 30 years, are exclusively Microsoft's fault?"

Yes, in fact they were. Windows used to be insecure because of poor system design. (I'd argue the term "plagued" is an outdated POV that has been massive overstatement for almost a decade now.)


[Bill Davis] "I'm being snarky, yes, but Apple very publicly jettisoned Quicktime as being the foundational core of their video systems half a decade ago. "

Most developers saw the writing on the wall and have been quietly replacing QuickTime with their own proprietary implementations. But Apple just officially jettisoned QuickTime on Windows three months ago, and even that only really became public knowledge when TrendMicro informed the world. Prior to that, QuickTime for Windows was very old and very creaky, but still maintained.

Of course, Apple is free to do as they see fit, and I can certainly understand why they wouldn't see fit to continue maintaining QuickTime on any platform, let alone the competition's.

But it's disheartening to see yet another Apple product that an industry was built on disappear without a suitable replacement. This is exactly why open standards exist.


[Bill Davis] "If somebody is still operating on Win98, I'm not sure how much of any malware problems that user experiences can be laid EXCLUSIVELY at Microsofts feet. At some point, you've GOT to modernize."

Microsoft is actually a great example of a company that supports their ecosystem. You don't have to continue using Windows 98, because Microsoft has been developing the Windows platform and modernizing continuously.


[Bill Davis] "In this era, where both manufacturing and troubleshooting have migrated to a 24-7 thing from the days when a software update was perhaps a once every year or two thing. It's just something we all have to get used to... Like it or not, software is now more of a JIT delivery thing. Something we simply have to get used to on all sides. "

It is something YOU have to get used to, because you're committed to the Apple ecosystem. Other vendors value stability (as in frameworks that don't change behavior often, not as in whether applications crash or not).

Good software architecture should permit new innovation without excluding continuity from the past.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Tim Wilson
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 27, 2016 at 8:25:18 pm
Last Edited By Tim Wilson on Apr 27, 2016 at 8:28:48 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Good software architecture should permit new innovation without excluding continuity from the past."

This is something Microsoft sticks the landing on, as well as anybody in any software sector, and better than most. They publish a very long-sighted road map, have long public betas, include dates for when products will be discontinuing development, and at which later subsequent date Msft will discontinue support. Typically 2-3 years after EOL, but depending on product line, can go further.

That's not to say that you'll like their stuff any more as a result, or that they're free of other issues. But everything I've ever heard anybody say about the way they wish Apple would behave, Microsoft is actually doing in spades.

But really, anybody who crawls in bed with Apple has to expect unpleasant surprises on a regular basis. Apple doesn't even bother to say "But this has never happened to me before!" because everyone knows it happens all the damn time. LOL


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Walter Soyka
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 6:12:11 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "For a company that has placesed its future on the on the internet its a major situation. And no your our risk is not every 99 days. Its every time me need to internet access."

I think you misunderstand the nature of the vulnerability. It does not rely on Internet access. A completely air-gapped machine could be compromised by simply playing a malformed QuickTime movie in Apple's QuickTime Player 7 software on Windows.

I think it would also be helpful here to note the three things that "QuickTime" commonly refers to: 1) a media framework, 2) a movie file format, and 3) a media player.

It seems that the vulnerability is in the player, not the framework. As others have noted, you can install the QuickTime components, necessary for a great many media applications, without installing the vulnerable QuickTime Player application itself.

That said... wouldn't it be nice if our entire industry didn't rely on proprietary standards, closely held by a seemingly capricious vendor?

Remember, friends don't let friends spec ProRes for mastering.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Herb Sevush
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 23, 2016 at 3:43:30 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Remember, friends don't let friends spec ProRes for mastering."

Tell that to PBS.

My entire post workflow is now dominated by the need to deliver ProRes for broadcast. If that changed I'd be off OSX and busy researching which new PC workstation I was buying along with planing my future infrastructure for the next 5 years. As it is I'm delaying everything, making do with what I can and spending as little as possible waiting for a workable solution to arise. Apple won't build what I want, won't license what I need to others, and still has a stranglehold on my deliverables.

Hopefully Apple's NDA only meetings at NAB revealed answer's to all my problems that I am simply to lowly to be allowed to know.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 23, 2016 at 3:52:03 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Hopefully Apple's NDA only meetings at NAB revealed answer's to all my problems that I am simply to lowly to be allowed to know."

Lowly? All you had to do was be there. The only requirement was being awake at 9am to get in line. In Vegas, i guess that's a tough one actually...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 23, 2016 at 6:35:24 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Lowly? All you had to do was be there. The only requirement was being awake at 9am to get in line. In Vegas, i guess that's a tough one actually..."

EXACTLY this.

The only qualification needed to have seen what was shown in the Apple presentation was wanting to be there and agreeing to sign the NDA. Period.

As I noted before, you didn't even need an NAB attendees badge.

BTW, everyone reading this should look for Charlie's FCPeXchange suite demo when it goes up (hopefully this week) - it's awesome!

The way he works "versioning" via Share for his trailer stems and exports alone really reveals why the X workflow is so singular.

I suspect it's gonna be eye opening for a lot of editors.

FWIW.

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Steve Connor
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 11:44:05 am

[Bill Davis] "[Charlie Austin] "Lowly? All you had to do was be there. The only requirement was being awake at 9am to get in line. In Vegas, i guess that's a tough one actually..."

EXACTLY this.

The only qualification needed to have seen what was shown in the Apple presentation was wanting to be there and agreeing to sign the NDA. Period."


Apart from the overwhelming majority of us FCPX users that WEREN'T in Vegas, it's nice that you all got a sneak look though.


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Herb Sevush
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 3:11:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "The only qualification needed to have seen what was shown in the Apple presentation was wanting to be there and agreeing to sign the NDA."

And knowing the meeting existed and where and when it was being held and who could attend. Maybe I'm totally to blame and it was written up in NAB Today or any of the other guides that were being handed out all over the place - then it's my bad.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 3:40:46 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Apr 24, 2016 at 3:42:54 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Maybe I'm totally to blame and it was written up in NAB Today or any of the other guides that were being handed out all over the place - then it's my bad"

You would have had to have been keeping tabs with FCP Works on the FCP Exchange workshop and registered (free) for their sessions. It was listed on their session agenda for each of the two days. Since FCP Exchange is not an official NAB event, there wouldn't really be any coverage through NAB. Although some folks, like me, mentioned it in NAB Preview articles.

http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.com/news/shoot/2016-nab-show-product-previ...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 3:45:47 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Apr 24, 2016 at 3:47:21 pm

[Herb Sevush] "And knowing the meeting existed and where and when it was being held and who could attend."

You're right, and I'm not sure why the FCP Works schedule wasn't posted here, it's on the usual FCP sites of course as Oliver mentioned. I should have probably posted the schedule here, as I was "presenting".... but I wasn't really sure what I was gonna "present" so I didn't.

I did get to see the Apple presentation and learned that they are working on stuff and appear to be listening to user feedback. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 6:58:26 pm

[Herb Sevush] "And knowing the meeting existed and where and when it was being held and who could attend. Maybe I'm totally to blame and it was written up in NAB Today or any of the other guides that were being handed out all over the place - then it's my bad."

Well....

IIRC, I posted in a thread right here on Monday - soon after the first Apple presentation - the fact that the entire audience had been put under NDA.

I think that was a pretty decent signal that something unusual had happened.

This is a heavily read board. And I think it's fair to say one of the focal points for info about these NLEs on the entire web.

There were under 50 seats for each of the Apple Exchange presentations - not because they were trying to exclude anyone, but because FCPWorks is a private company and snagging a demo space next door to the big show is likely both difficult and extremely costly.

Both Apple demos were SRO packed to the gills - to the point we had to turn people away at the risk of Fire Code violations.

So again, the issue was honestly ONLY whether or not you wanted to be there and how much. If you did - you could be. If you were iffy or didn't - nope. The seats got filled by those who DID want to be there more than you did. Simple as that.

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Herb Sevush
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 7:46:12 pm

[Bill Davis] "The seats got filled by those who DID want to be there more than you did. Simple as that."

No argument.

Just the same, every other NLE maker actually wanted my attention, they sent me e-mails for months before NAB and provided all sorts of information and opportunities to learn what's new with their products. But Apple is not like other companies so if I wanted to learn what they are up to I would have to research it on the web, then wait in line to beat out other interested parties, and then sign a NDA.

I am not worthy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 7:50:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Just the same, every other NLE maker actually wanted my attention, they sent me e-mails for months before NAB and provided all sorts of information and opportunities to learn what's new with their products. But Apple is not like other companies so if I wanted to learn what they are up to I would have to research it on the web, then wait in line to beat out other interested parties, and then sign a NDA.

I am not worthy."


Bazinga!


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 8:18:56 pm

Isn't this discussion getting a bit silly? For any company of size, mounting a booth at NAB costs millions of dollars and consumes a lot of the staff for 4-6 months. Apple has chosen not to play that game. Now that's a shame for those of us who go, but you can certainly understand why they don't do it. Doing is big keynote at some off-site hotel isn't cheap or less time consuming either.

In past years Apple held closed door briefings in a hotel room with press, some customers, and partners. This year they took a slightly different and a bit more open approach. Isn't that a good thing? Avid, Adobe, Autodesk and others all have private briefings - usually online - in the weeks leading up to NAB or other releases. These are all under embargo until the time is right. This really isn't that much different.

In the grand scheme of things none of it matters. When an update to FCPX comes, you'll know about it and can decide what to do. At least now you know some activity has been going on.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 24, 2016 at 10:25:13 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Isn't this discussion getting a bit silly?"

It's been quite silly since it started.

[Oliver Peters] " For any company of size, mounting a booth at NAB costs millions of dollars and consumes a lot of the staff for 4-6 months. Apple has chosen not to play that game. Now that's a shame for those of us who go, but you can certainly understand why they don't do it."

Apple can spend their money any way they see fit, and from their stock price it appears they've been spending it in the right way and I don't expect them to start asking my opinion on what to do any time in the near future.

[Oliver Peters] "In past years Apple held closed door briefings in a hotel room with press, some customers, and partners. This year they took a slightly different and a bit more open approach. Isn't that a good thing?"

I have no idea if it was a good thing or not, I wasn't there. While Apple has every right to do things as they wish I don't think I'm alone in feeling excluded - they have the right not to care how I feel, I have the right to be annoyed. In my case I have to make some spending decisions by June 1st and it would be helpful to have some idea of what Apple is up to before then. As it stands I have no way of knowing what I will know or when. This is not new, Apple is famous for it's secrecy, it part of the brand etc., but the obvious comparison between every other NLE maker and Apple becomes even more pointed at NAB.

[Oliver Peters] "In the grand scheme of things none of it matters. When an update to FCPX comes, you'll know about it and can decide what to do."

In the grand scheme of things I'm ending this post right here.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 6:22:35 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "How do they substitue codecs that use qt? How do they rework all that has to be worked mostly all their window stuff."

Adobe has been developing their own media-handling framework (MediaCore) for some time.

It's probably important to discuss this:
http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/quicktime-on-windows/

Notably:
"Adobe has worked extensively on removing dependencies on QuickTime in its professional video, audio and digital imaging applications and native decoding of many .mov formats is available today (including uncompressed, DV, IMX, MPEG2, XDCAM, h264, JPEG, DNxHD, DNxHR, AVCI and Cineform). Native export support is also possible for DV and Cineform in .mov wrappers."

Animation codec is currently a problem, but hopefully that one's an easy fix; RLE compression is so simple you can do it in your head. DNxHD/HR export is a problem, too, as are growing files, but there's always MXF.

The real problem in abandoning QuickTime is dealing with that closed, proprietary Apple ProRes codec. We can do better!

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Walter Soyka
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on May 26, 2016 at 12:50:36 pm

Update:

"Today we’re pleased to announce that Adobe has been able to accelerate work that was already in progress to support native reading of ProRes. This new capability is fully licensed and certified by Apple, and barring any unforeseen issues during pre-release, these fixes will be included into an update to the relevant products in Creative Cloud shortly... When these fixes are released most Windows users will have a seamless workflow for virtually all popular codecs even with QuickTime removed from the computer."

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/apple-quicktime-on-windows-update/

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Shawn Miller
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on May 26, 2016 at 5:30:43 pm

That's great news... I just wish it weren't necessary. It would be nice if Adobe also added support for 3:1 and 4:1 compressed raw Cinema DNG, while they were at it.

I'm counting down the days until Blackmagic adds DNxHR recording to the Ursa Mini. :-)

Shawn



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Craig Seeman
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 12:53:11 pm

Developers can build in their own decode for playback in the apps.
Telestream Switch, Episode, Wirecast for Windows all handle ProRes playback within the respective app.

BTW if you need a professional cross platform player with Quicktime Pro like features and more, you may want to look at Switch.

I don't doubt Adobe will build in internal decoding for certain Quicktime codecs in short order.



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Eric Santiago
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 1:05:38 pm

Funny after all these years Ive been in the business no one has stepped up and created their own codec/container that could surpass QT.
I've lived in a PC only video world for two summers and survived with the Perception PVR using sequential TGAs.
If I had to go back I can probably live with it since Im used to that workflow with Maya and at times CinemaDNG.
DNxHD/HR is also in my workflow to date but can that ultimately replace QT on the Windows side?
If a mfg refuses to support something then dont support them.
I live in an Apple world so I can deal with it on my terms.


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Craig Seeman
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 1:23:54 pm

[Eric Santiago] "DNxHD/HR is also in my workflow to date but can that ultimately replace QT on the Windows side?"

That's a codec and can certainly exist in a .mov (Quicktime) container (as well as .mxf of course). Whereas ProRes only exists in .mov container. Just making sure people understand the difference between codecs and containers. BTW .mov container is not limited to use in Quicktime. H.264 .mov files play just fine in Windows Media Player.

I'd also add that Quicktime Frameworks is deprecated on Mac as well. You can't sell anything in the Mac App store that depends on it. Apps have to use AVFoundation (Core Media). Regarding codecs, try opening an Animation .mov in Quicktime X and it'll convert it to ProRes 4444 (to preserve alpha channel) for playback.

For whatever reason there's no news about Quicktime 7 vulnerabilities on Mac OS though.

It's really about building decoders in the programs rather than external dependancies.



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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 3:21:12 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Whereas ProRes only exists in .mov container"

ProRes can also live in an MXF container.

[Craig Seeman] " BTW .mov container is not limited to use in Quicktime. H.264 .mov files play just fine in Windows Media Player"

FWIW - this issue also affects H.264 wrapped as MP4.

[Craig Seeman] "It's really about building decoders in the programs rather than external dependancies."

In speaking with both Avid and Adobe developers here at the show, they both depend on having QT components installed. They are also looking into what they have to build themselves to fill in the gaps in the absence of QT. For example, which codecs are essential to support. That's not a quick fix.

So far, the theoretical vulnerability affects the player only, so you could have QT components installed, but not QT Player. There are plenty of alternatives to the player.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 3:43:59 pm

[Oliver Peters] "ProRes can also live in an MXF container."

Have you tested and found it viable at least on Windows in Avid and PProCC?
The issue I think is still the decoder rather than the container.

[Oliver Peters] "FWIW - this issue also affects H.264 wrapped as MP4."

Which shouldn't require Quicktime frameworks to decode though.

[Oliver Peters] "They are also looking into what they have to build themselves to fill in the gaps in the absence of QT. For example, which codecs are essential to support. That's not a quick fix."

ProRes should be a given. I think Animation may be a concern because some still use it. I'm not sure what other Apple specific codecs are in wide use for post production.



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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 3:51:00 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Have you tested and found it viable at least on Windows in Avid and PProCC?
The issue I think is still the decoder rather than the container."


I have not tested this on the Windows side. I was more referring to the fact that Avid MC on Macs can use ProRes as an option. When they do, the codec essentially a "closed box" to them, but they can rewrapped as MXF. I don't believe the same (recording) is available on Windows due to licensing. And yes, it's a decoder issue, which is why installed QT components are required. Those are the elements that have to be rebuilt in order to completely get away from QT.

[Craig Seeman] " I'm not sure what other Apple specific codecs are in wide use for post production."

Also 8-bit and 10-bit uncompressed in MOV containers. Especially with legacy masters.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 3:51:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Also 8-bit and 10-bit uncompressed in MOV containers. Especially with legacy masters."

PS - also things like QT reference files that RED cameras generate.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 3:44:30 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So far, the theoretical vulnerability affects the player only, so you could have QT components installed, but not QT Player. There are plenty of alternatives to the player."

That's the important point. For some reason, not many people are interested in pointing that out. Not scary enough I guess. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 9:31:48 pm

[Charlie Austin] "For some reason, not many people are interested in pointing that out."

Probably because of Apple's naming convention choice, where QuickTime can refer to the media player, the underlying media architecture and/or the actual media, can easily lead to confusion. ;)

Speaking of that, if the problem is only the QT Player then why aren't Adobe et al. just saying uninstall the player but leave the codecs? Adobe's response that Walter posted, and unofficial but knowledgable response I've seen on Avid's boards, make it sound like just uninstalling the QT Player won't remedy the problem. Can anyone shed light on this?


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Charlie Austin
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 9:40:12 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Probably because of Apple's naming convention choice, where QuickTime can refer to the media player, the underlying media architecture and/or the actual media, can easily lead to confusion. ;)"

Agreed...

[Andrew Kimery] "peaking of that, if the problem is only the QT Player then why aren't Adobe et al. just saying uninstall the player but leave the codecs?"

I've heard varying explanations as well, My guess is that Avid/Adobe don't want to license ProRes, as there are a number of other players on the PC that do and, from what i understand, aren't affected by this.

You want to hear screaming? Despite literally years of notice, wait till QTKit on the Mac gets shut off. Not too far away I'd guess.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 9:50:22 pm

[Charlie Austin] "You want to hear screaming? Despite literally years of notice, wait till QTKit on the Mac gets shut off. Not too far away I'd guess."

They should just release a new MacPro on the same day and no one will notice about QT.


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 10:46:37 pm

"My guess is that Avid/Adobe don't want to license ProRes"

Huh? Avid and Avid do license ProRes from Apple. That's how they can write ProRes media on the Macs.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Gary Huff
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 11:16:35 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Huh? Avid and Avid do license ProRes from Apple. That's how they can write ProRes media on the Macs."

I was under the impression that they use APIs under OSX to actually do this, previously through QTKit and now under AVFoundation. Resolve also will read/write ProRes on a Mac, but not under Windows.

I am also under the impression that most of the Windows products that write ProRes QuickTimes are reverse-engineered and in some gray area where they are not officially supported ProRes renders.


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 11:27:42 pm

With Adobe, Avid, AJA and BMD, they pay Apple a license fee regardless of how they do it. This makes it legal, spec-compliant, and gives them the right to use it in marketing literature. They have stated so publicly and are listed as partners in any official Apple marketing literature or slides.

On Windows, the people legally doing it, like Telestream, have also licensed it from Apple, but it's only used in the context of distributed network renders, such as with Vantage.

The origins of ProRes are claimed to have come from an open source codec, which then Apple adopted and modified. I don't know how true that is, but it's what these grey market versions are. There are also people who have used these and found they aren't completely compliant with Apple's specs. For example, they induce the "conforming" function when opened in QT Player X.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 11:32:37 pm

[Oliver Peters] "On Windows, the people legally doing it, like Telestream, have also licensed it from Apple, but it's only used in the context of distributed network renders, such as with Vantage."

Is this because Apple won't license to NLEs on Windows or is it because NLEs on Windows don't want to pay the license fee? Any idea? I know with Shake the cost was severely discounted for the Mac version, kinda discounted for the Linux version and not discounted at all for the Windows version (which Apple killed after a few years). I wonder if it's similar situation here.


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 11:40:18 pm

Apple will not license for "record" (encode) use on Windows. I think might also be true for Linux.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 12:24:31 am

[Oliver Peters] "Apple will not license for "record" (encode) use on Windows. I think might also be true for Linux."

Apple has started licensing niche products for ProRes encode off of OS X. Assimilate has a license; I've been using SCRATCH on Windows for official ProRes encodes. Flame on Linux writes official ProRes, too.

No major product off of OS X has an official ProRes license yet.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andy Edwards
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 8:21:08 pm

Telestream Vantage products allow for encoding or flipping files to ProRes flavors and it runs on Windows. Steep price, but one of the few Windows based encoders that can export ProRes.

Andy Edwards


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Craig Seeman
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 8:44:59 pm

Telestream Episode Engine as well but not the standard or Pro version.



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Charlie Austin
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 12:25:25 am

[Oliver Peters] "Huh? Avid and Avid do license ProRes from Apple. That's how they can write ProRes media on the Macs.
"


I stand corrected... I guess I don't understand the issue, assuming the codecs are installed. ProRes won't play without the player?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 1:10:08 am

"ProRes won't play without the player?"

I don't understand what this question means.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Eric Santiago
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 21, 2016 at 6:08:51 pm

[Oliver Peters] "There are plenty of alternatives to the player.
"


I for one avoid QT player on the Mac itself these days.

I use VLC or host NLE.

That converting option annoys me and I know I can fix it but again I dont use the player period.


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Gary Huff
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 12:45:41 am

[Eric Santiago] "I for one avoid QT player on the Mac itself these days. I use VLC or host NLE."

Same here.


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Christopher Sosa
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 12:21:24 am

Has anyone had luck with exporting DNxHD MXF with an alpha? Right now we use the .mov wrapper but I can't seem to get an alpha to come over in AME CC.


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Walter Soyka
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 12:27:33 am

[Christopher Sosa] "Has anyone had luck with exporting DNxHD MXF with an alpha? Right now we use the .mov wrapper but I can't seem to get an alpha to come over in AME CC."

Not a direct answer to your question, but we've been using CineForm/MOV as our mezzanine codec. Adobe apps write it directly without QuickTime, and it supports alpha.

MOX [link] is more important now than ever.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Michael Gissing
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 1:29:03 am

I use VLC to play media files on PC. Resolve can read ProRes on PC but not write. I am using DnxHD as the master file (must test Cineform Walter) and then I have Cinec free encoder to make a ProRes deliverable when asked. Interestingly drop that ProRes into FCP7 and it wants to render. Also Cinema Tools won't rewrite headers to change frame rate.

I would rather switch to mxf DNxHR for all my mastering and deliverbles but somehow Apple have managed to grab the attention as default codec. DNxHD in a QT wrapper sometimes seems to read with the wrong gamma in other software.


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Christopher Sosa
Re: quicktime problems for adobe cc
on Apr 22, 2016 at 9:16:31 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Not a direct answer to your question, but we've been using CineForm/MOV as our mezzanine codec. Adobe apps write it directly without QuickTime, and it supports alpha."

Thanks Walter, but with this QuickTime security issues my companies IT department is probably going to remove it from our systems. So ideally another container file that works with DNxHD would be best. MXF looked promising but I can't get that alpha to work.

Now I did read a post that stated you could uninstall QuickTime and reinstall just the codec by choosing "only 3rd party apps". I haven't tried it yet but it would be great if it's that easy.

here's the thread.
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/2/1072242#1072246


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