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Is anyone using Motion?

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Oliver Peters
Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 5:25:01 pm

I'm curious. I see a lot of wonderful work being done in Motion from time to time, as well as to create FCPX templates. But is anyone seriously using it for motion graphics? In the entire existence of Motion, I've only encountered 1 or 2 people who have delivered graphics to me that were created in Motion. Almost everything I encounter was created in After Effects. What are others seeing?

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 5:35:21 pm

As an Editor I use it a lot for straightforward work, but I don't know any Graphic Artists who use it, it's all AE


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Bret Williams
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 6:28:29 pm

As an editor that's been doing his own AE work for 20 years, I switched when Adobe started being a ...

For my work, mostly communications, it's easily more capable than AE, especially for creating X templates and plugs. But I still use AE when I have to. I try to use my CS5 version first. When Adobe recently had a sale on subscriptions I got an AE only subscription. But I STILL use CS5 if I can. I like to open my projects down the road without shelling out cash.


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John Rofrano
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 8:17:50 pm

[Bret Williams] "As an editor that's been doing his own AE work for 20 years, I switched when Adobe started being a ..."
+1

I switched from AE CS6 after Adobe went subscription so I use Motion 5 now and I find it a lot easier to use and the integration with FCP X templates makes it a far better choice for video editors that also do motion graphics.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Oliver Peters
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 8:22:09 pm

[John Rofrano] "I switched from AE CS6 after Adobe went subscription so I use Motion 5 now"

That's easy to do when you operate self-contained. Next to impossible when you have to interchange with outside designers if you are actually exchanging project files.

I have regular designer who ends up working on a lot of projects that I work on. A big AE guy and he was trying to hold at CS6. He found it impossible to do, because the rest of the world that he has to interact with has moved on and embraced (willingly or not) CC.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Rofrano
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 3:11:18 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I have regular designer who ends up working on a lot of projects that I work on. A big AE guy and he was trying to hold at CS6. He found it impossible to do, because the rest of the world that he has to interact with has moved on and embraced (willingly or not) CC."
...and it's even worse if you are in the Graphic Design world like my son is. You flat out can't find a job if you don't use Photoshop and Illustrator. I don't believe the subscription model would work without Adobe having the monopoly that they do. You really don't have a choice in some industries.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Oliver Peters
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 3:53:48 pm

[John Rofrano] " I don't believe the subscription model would work without Adobe having the monopoly that they do"

I think it's a bit unfair to call that a monopoly. De facto, yes. Actual, no. They make superior tools that industries have standardized on. Same for Microsoft and Word/Excel or Avid with Media Composer/Pro Tools. Until someone comes up with better products that ALSO achieve critical mass, that won't change.

But compare that to Aperture and Lightroom. Apple effectively created the genre and GAVE AWAY the lead to Adobe.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Rofrano
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 4:24:45 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Until someone comes up with better products that ALSO achieve critical mass, that won't change."
Fair enough... Affinity sure has come up with some very good competition to Photoshop and Illustrator with Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer (of which I've purchased both) but it's the "critical mass" part that's really hard to achieve. Adobe hasn't had any real competition in that space in years so we'll have to wait and see if Affinity can get a foothold into that market.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Oliver Peters
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 4:38:09 pm

[John Rofrano] "so we'll have to wait and see if Affinity can get a foothold into that marke"

All Mac-only applications are going to have difficulty achieving critical mass. While creative industries skew heavily toward Mac, that isn't a given. I've run into plenty of corporate environments and individuals running PCs with Adobe software.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 7:01:08 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[John Rofrano] "so we'll have to wait and see if Affinity can get a foothold into that marke"

All Mac-only applications are going to have difficulty achieving critical mass. While creative industries skew heavily toward Mac, that isn't a given. I've run into plenty of corporate environments and individuals running PCs with Adobe software."


I think this might depend on which segment(s) of the creative industry you're looking at. In my experience, designers and editors tend to favor Macs, while 3D/VFX and motion designers seem to be more platform agnostic, with more folks leaning towards PCs when looking to replace their aging Mac Pros. But I agree with your larger point, Oliver. Real alternatives to Photoshop and Illustrator will have to be cross platform if they want to make a serious dent in Adobe's market share.



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 16, 2016 at 9:26:39 am

[Oliver Peters] "All Mac-only applications are going to have difficulty achieving critical mass."

https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/windows/

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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John Rofrano
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 17, 2016 at 12:40:16 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/windows/"
The plot thickens!!! :-D

(I love it when a plan to crush the dominant player that is abusing their power comes together...) lol

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 10, 2016 at 4:41:07 pm

[John Rofrano] "Affinity sure has come up with some very good competition to Photoshop and Illustrator with Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer"

+1!

I also have them both, am amazed at the overall performance and glad that I could finally ban both PS and Illu from my machine thanks to them. Whether they reach "critical mass" is fairly irrelevant for me, since the exchange with the "real" apps has been flawless so far. Both in and out. But they aren't a major part of my core business either, as I would assume is the same for the VAST majority of people in this business.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Mitch Ives
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 6, 2016 at 6:45:29 pm

[John Rofrano] "Affinity sure has come up with some very good competition to Photoshop and Illustrator with Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer (of which I've purchased both) but it's the "critical mass" part that's really hard to achieve. "

Agreed. The speed of Affinity products should have Adobe embarrassed. Since I am mostly self-contained I have the luxury of choosing superior tools over Adobe.

To answer Oliver's question, I used Motion a lot more back when we had round-tripping. Now I see it as sort of a plugin to FCP X. There are plenty of pre-made plugins that I find more useful.

I don't want to whine, but Apple's lack of interest in FCP X, Motion, Aperture (or some decent replacement) has been a real PITA. I wish someone else would run Apple. Someone with enough passion to say:

"We make $200 Billion a year, we can afford to not act like accountants all the damn time and do some really great stuff, just to remind people how special we are as a company"...

Time to adjust the meds... oh wait I don't take any...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Mitch Ives
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 4:20:16 am

[Oliver Peters] "Until someone comes up with better products that ALSO achieve critical mass, that won't change."

Agreed. I've been exploring Affinity products. Affinity Photo is a true 64 bit screamer and it's faster than other image editing programs I own.

I intend to look at Affinity Designer... an Illustrator replacement when I get some time.

Without CC, I don't think companies like Affinity could find a market...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 7:35:21 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Feb 28, 2016 at 7:35:13 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But is anyone seriously using it for motion graphics?"

Yes, I've come across dozens of professional users scattered across the world who are doing fairly high level motion graphics work with Motion so they do exist, though I suspect they are mostly small operations who can choose their own workflows. I also think I've "met" more serious Motion users outside North America for what that's worth. I know of almost nobody using it professionally in my own market of the UK.

[Oliver Peters] "Almost everything I encounter was created in After Effects."

I think this is probably the sticking point for a lot of situations. If you have to cope with interchange, then it makes no sense not to use the industry standard. I've had situations where I've built something in Motion not expecting to have to share it and then been faced with having to rebuild it in After Effects when I discover that I am being asked to do just that.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 7:58:48 pm

Apple certainly isn't doing anything to promote it. There's not even an "In Action" page on their own website page for it. An that page lives as a subset of FCPX's page.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 8:08:13 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Apple certainly isn't doing anything to promote it."

It's becoming increasingly hard to argue that Motion exists as a product in its own right rather than merely as a necessary adjunct to FCP X of which it forms an integral part.

And I say that as someone who would really like this not to be the case.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 8:18:33 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "It's becoming increasingly hard to argue that Motion exists as a product in its own right"

Clearly Motion has become something completely different than what seemed to be intended when it was originally created. FCPX could clearly live without Motion as a standalone app. However, in the Adobe world, AE could easily thrive without the existence of Premiere Pro.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 8:23:18 pm

As a side-note, does anyone see Fusion as having more substantial success than Motion as an AE alternative in the larger world?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 8:45:13 pm

I don't really know a lot of people using it. But if not, who are all these companies dedicated to Motion/FCP X selling to? Ripple, MotionVFX, Pixel Film Studios, and countless others seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 8:50:33 pm

[Bret Williams] "I don't really know a lot of people using it. But if not, who are all these companies dedicated to Motion/FCP X selling to? Ripple, MotionVFX, Pixel Film Studios, and countless others seem to be doing pretty well for themselves."

They're selling to FCP X users, not Motion users. Motion is a necessary wrapper for FCP X plug-ins but there is barely any market at all for Motion specific plug-ins ... as far as I know.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 8:54:50 pm

Maybe not plugins, with the exceptions of mObject, but Ripple is selling huge training courses in Motion and MoitonVFX is completely Motion templates now, with plugins that work for both. You really can't use a template right in FCP X without making some changes in motion or just using it in motion.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 9:06:34 pm

[Bret Williams] "Maybe not plugins, with the exceptions of mObject"

mObject is a plug-in for FCP X that you can also use in Motion, but I bet that they sell 1000 units to FCP X-only customers to every one that they sell to someone who will only use it in Motion.

[Bret Williams] "Ripple is selling huge training courses in Motion"

Fair enough, Mark Spencer must feel there's enough of a market there.

[Bret Williams] "MoitonVFX is completely Motion templates now, with plugins that work for both."

Again, I would guess that their market is massively more FCP X than Motion exclusive.

[Bret Williams] "You really can't use a template right in FCP X without making some changes in motion or just using it in motion."

You're a relatively rare Motion power user, I think.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Tony West
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 9:59:30 pm

I use it quite a bit and really like it.

I remember when X came out and the reviews on Apples site where pretty bad. I looked up the reviews on the new Motion and they were really good. I found that curious.

I don't really hand anything off to anybody who would start making changes to my motion project.

I'm either the editor or someone else is.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 10:30:24 pm

I think it's a progression Oliver.

At $50 apiece, Motion and Compressor are often seen as simple "add on" products to X. But I was surprised and I think Mark Spencer was as well!) at the first Creative Summit when the number of people in the Motion sessions was as much or more than those in the general sessions.

It's not the same as the market for AE. But that's been growing for 20 years+.

And if you're deeply into motion graphics, the weight of that history will be hard to ignore. I think Motion will always attract X editors who don't want to mess with AE, rather than Motion Graphics Pros who are looking for something better/different.

On Richard Taylors Radio Show today, there was some talk about how there's now likely 3million plus X editors working out there. Each able to add Motion for a click- even if they don't use it rigouously. That's plenty of market for Motion templates, enhancements, plug-ins etc world wide.

Be interesting to see how many DEDICATED AE jockeys there are out there. Not just people who use it because they use the CC suite. And is that vertical big enough to service separately - or ONLY as a suite offering? We'll probably never know.

FWIW

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 28, 2016 at 11:40:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "On Richard Taylors Radio Show today, there was some talk about how there's now likely 3million plus X editors working out there. Each able to add Motion for a click- even if they don't use it rigouously. That's plenty of market for Motion templates, enhancements, plug-ins etc world wide. "

I'm curious about that number, because Apple hasn't even officially acknowledged 2 million FCPX owners yet. They announced 1 million separate installs in their 2014 news, but it's been silence since then AFAIK. I do agree it's possible, but I haven't actually seen anything official. Nor have I personally encountered a growth in users around the professional community. I see about the same users as has been the case for a few years now. However, I have seen visible shifts to Adobe from other platforms in that same time frame.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 8:13:45 am

Talking of numbers, I thought I'd have at look at the stats for my YouTube channel (which consists almost exclusively of Motion tutorials) which now has over 10,000 subscribers.

Obviously in terms of the installed user base for Motion that's going to be a tiny sample and to some extent self-selecting (and skewed towards those who can understand English to a sufficient level) so I'm not suggesting these figures are in any way scientific.

Anyway, here are the topline figures.

The top 10 locations in order are US, Germany, UK, France, Japan, Canada, Italy, India, Netherlands and South Korea. (Interesting that Germany is in second place despite the language issue.)

The US represents only 33% of the total which is perhaps surprising.

The demographic is consistently around 90% male.

The age ranges differ considerably between different territories, but in the US they break down as follows:

13-17 -5.8%
18-24 - 14%
25-34 - 27%
35-44 - 25%
45-54 - 18%
55-64 - 6.4%
65+ = 3.8%

The US has easily the highest proportion of under 18 year olds and, speaking anecdotally, many of these seem to have mastered Motion to a surprisingly high level.

25-34 seems to be the peak age group across most territories - this group is perhaps the likeliest to be using Motion in a work situation, though I would say again anecdotally that at least half of the adult users of Motion that I have come across on the channel are not video professionals and the number may well be a lot higher.

One of the most frequent comments is to express surprise at discovering what Motion can actually do. (Jason echoes this lower down this thread.) It would seem that Motion suffers from a perception problem generally and Apple don't seem to want to do much to correct this inasmuch as they market it exclusively as an adjunct to FCP X.

One other thing that I'd note is that of those 10,000+ subscribers only one that I know of is a regular here on the COW - not quite sure what that means but it may mean something.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 2:42:29 pm

[Bill Davis] "Be interesting to see how many DEDICATED AE jockeys there are out there. Not just people who use it because they use the CC suite. And is that vertical big enough to service separately - or ONLY as a suite offering? We'll probably never know."

No one knows precisely (more accurately, no one tells precisely), but there are enough dedicated users to support a good number of developers in the sizable ecosystem that has flourished around Ae.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jason Watson
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 4:37:33 am

I used it pretty heavily for probably 5 years or so exclusively for motion graphics, but eventually I reached the point where it lacked the capability to do what I wanted and needed, and so I sort of made a cold turkey switch over to Ae. I really liked Motion, and hoped it would turn into a major Ae competitor, but I eventually realized it was probably going to be more of an effects generator for FCPX and so I never looked back. After using Ae for the past 5 years, it would be almost impossible to go back, as there are workflow and functionality aspects for me that Motion either couldn't accommodate or would make harder to pull off. I'd love to see it developed more, but I don't think that's what Apple has in mind for it.

At any rate, I only know of a couple people in my circles that use Motion for motion graphics creation, and a lot of that is modifying pre-existing templates. I know that when I was using it I always got odd looks and people were surprised that I was able to make what I was making with it, which is hopefully a compliment to it.


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Doug Suiter
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 10:53:07 am

I am a long time Motion fan. I used it to re-create broadcast templates originally created in AE so that promo editors didn't have to book in time with designers in the Promo departments of Channel [V] and Disney Channel in Australia. At the time we were using FCP Studio.

I understand that AE is far more capable from a certain point onwards but Motion is far more accessible, better value and a sheer pleasure to use right up to that point where they veer off into their respective strengths.

The thing is that so many people would be better off using Motion given what they actually use AE for. They under-estimate Motion's capabilities and over-estimate their need for AE's high end strengths. The result is this phenomenon of "Oh wow! I didn't know Motion could do that..." which is a combination of Motion's surprising power and their own over-estimation of what their own needs actually are. It's this whole "Industry standard" thing. I wonder how relevant it will remain the more things fragment?

Maybe instead of a "Professional vs Non-professional" paradigm we now have a "Specialised Professional vs Non-specialised Professional vs Non-professional"

For the Non-specialised Professional Motion is a powerful, affordable and effective motion GFX tool. I know that use it daily - and I know that I'm no specialist and I don't want to be. And there's probably a lot of non-specialised professionals out there just like myself. I imagine that trend is only going to continue.

The twist I think is how Motion works with FCPX as a Plugin and effects tool. There's nothing quite like it. In that sense it's even more advanced and than AE is to Premiere.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 11:09:32 am
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Feb 29, 2016 at 11:11:49 am

[Doug Suiter] "The thing is that so many people would be better off using Motion given what they actually use AE for. They under-estimate Motion's capabilities and over-estimate their need for AE's high end strengths. The result is this phenomenon of "Oh wow! I didn't know Motion could do that..." which is a combination of Motion's surprising power and their own over-estimation of what their own needs actually are."

Although I hesitate to prejudge the complexity of other people's workflows, my feeling is that this is very probably right on the money.

However, I have to reiterate that Apple really, really don't help the perception of Motion. Here's the headline text on the product page:

"An interface designed especially for editors. Smart templates for making changes on the fly during editing. And easy-to-use motion graphics tools for creating eye-catching titles, transitions and effects. Motion is the perfect companion to Final Cut Pro."

Note the emphasis on this being a tool for editors - not motion graphics artists.

Note that it is a companion to Final Cut Pro - not a product in its own right.

Note that its only suggested uses are for titles, transitions and effects. (Amazing!)

Talk about limiting your market!

If the company selling the product are happy to belittle it to this degree, it's small wonder that it's not taken as seriously as it might be.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Doug Suiter
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 11:46:35 am

"Although I hesitate to prejudge the complexity of other people's workflows" - well said.
"...my feeling is that this is very probably right on the money." - also well said ;)

"However, I have to reiterate that Apple really, really don't help the perception of Motion."

I also feel frustrated about this, however in a way I think it's smart of Apple to push Motion as a companion app. That truely is it's unique
strength. It is integrated into FCPX is a way that is much more fundamental than AE is to Premiere. Motion and FCPX are in a class of their own in that regard.

Note that its only suggested uses are for titles, transitions and effects.

I'd say it's because that's what Motion does uniquely, that's what they are pushing FCPX deep integration up front. It's probably a little harsh to say they're belittling Motion. But if you said they were underselling it, I'd be hard pressed to disagree.

I read today a thread where people were talking about what they'd like to see with the next FCPX released. Someone said "Better PR and Communication". In a heartbeat, I'd give back the last 12 months of FCPX releases for that.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 12:04:28 pm

Broadly speaking, I agree with what you're saying but ...

[Doug Suiter] "I also feel frustrated about this, however in a way I think it's smart of Apple to push Motion as a companion app."

Yes, their decision makes sense. I just think it's a great shame. If all you're using Motion for is as a helper to FCP X, then frankly you're barely using Motion at all. The fact is there is a vast constituency of Motion users, many of them young, who are doing great things with it - who don't even own a copy of FCP X. Apple seem to have no interest in speaking to them - for reasons which no doubt make commercial sense too. But that's a big wasted opportunity.

[Doug Suiter] "I'd say it's because that's what Motion does uniquely, that's what they are pushing FCPX deep integration up front."

It's not that they're pushing it "up front" - it's that they're not pushing anything else about Motion at all! Again, that's a crying shame. FCP X integration is cool - but it's just a tiny fraction of what you can do with Motion, as you know.

[Doug Suiter] "I read today a thread where people were talking about what they'd like to see with the next FCPX released. Someone said "Better PR and Communication". In a heartbeat, I'd give back the last 12 months of FCPX releases for that."

OK, so you wouldn't give very much at all then ;-) (Just kidding.)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Doug Suiter
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 12:07:11 pm

"The fact is there is a vast constituency of Motion users, many of them young, who are doing great things with it - who don't even own a copy of FCP X."

Wow that's interesting. I actually didn't realise that.

"OK, so you wouldn't give very much at all then ;-) (Just kidding.)

Yeah I thought that as I typed it ;)


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 12:16:23 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Feb 29, 2016 at 12:19:08 pm

[Doug Suiter] ""The fact is there is a vast constituency of Motion users, many of them young, who are doing great things with it - who don't even own a copy of FCP X."

Wow that's interesting. I actually didn't realise that."


I know that probably sounds like a random claim, like so many that get bandied around here, but actually it's based on hundreds of interactions with subscribers to my YT channel.

It often surprises me when I recommend using FCP X only to discover they don't have it - and in some cases can't afford it!

You'd have thought that Apple would eagerly seize on a committed young demographic like this but they don't want to. Instead those young users of Motion will be graduating to Ae pretty soon and will be lost to the pro apps ecosystem ... They're unlikely to stick around using a product that shows very little sign of ongoing development and which Apple itself is only too happy to stigmatise.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 12:59:35 pm

A couple years ago I thought for sure Adobe was going to add full publishing (they already have rigging- albeit more complicated) to keep up with Motion's integration. They quickly implemented text publishing which brought them up to FCP legacy and Motion 4 standards. But then seemed to have dropped it. Motion didn't turn out to be a threat and I guess the pressure was off so they don't feel the need to develop that integration any further.


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Jason Watson
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 2:15:11 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "It's not that they're pushing it "up front" - it's that they're not pushing anything else about Motion at all! Again, that's a crying shame. FCP X integration is cool - but it's just a tiny fraction of what you can do with Motion, as you know."

I'd definitely agree with this, and it was one of the most frustrating and disappointing things for me back when I was heavily using Motion. To me the feature set bump from Motion 3 to Motion 4 was pretty significant, and at the time I thought it portended more in regards to how Apple would be developing it. But when Motion 5 came out and the biggest update (from what I remember) was the rigging, I thought it was cool, but not being an FCPX user it seemed like the app was going in a direction other than I was.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 2:31:52 pm

[Jason Watson] "To me the feature set bump from Motion 3 to Motion 4 was pretty significant, and at the time I thought it portended more in regards to how Apple would be developing it. But when Motion 5 came out and the biggest update (from what I remember) was the rigging, I thought it was cool, but not being an FCPX user it seemed like the app was going in a direction other than I was."

That's an interesting point.

If you were a long time user of Motion, M5 was not the exciting leap forward that so many others seem to have seen it as. It was a disappointment in that it didn't keep up the trajectory that we'd been expecting. And in many ways what it did was consign Motion to a much more secondary role. Subsequent Motion updates have been hugely underwhelming in terms of moving Motion forward as a product in its own right.

That's not to underestimate the value of the whole rigging and publishing thing - it's been a lot of fun. But rigging and publishing is primarily designed to get you into FCP X - it's primary purpose is not to expand what you can do inside Motion. (Although, yes, it's occasionally useful for that ... very occasionally.)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Brett Sherman
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 2:32:18 pm

[Oliver Peters] " I see a lot of wonderful work being done in Motion from time to time, as well as to create FCPX templates. But is anyone seriously using it for motion graphics?"

I dabble in Motion to make Templates. But for heavy FX work I use After Effects. The reason is simply I know AE well and I'd need more time in Motion to get to the same level. And time is not something I have a lot of these days. The other thing is that without round tripping, I'm not sure what the great advantage is of using Motion over AE. The only thing I can think is that it would make me better at making Templates, which is not a direct benefit.

I also get the sense that if I start using Motion in the same way as I use AE, I will run into roadblocks. "What do you mean Motion can't do this or that." or "Boy, I wish I had Optical Flares".

Bottom-line. If Motion had round-tripping and more robust development, I could easily see it becoming my main VFX software. But until then probably not.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 2:49:43 pm

[Brett Sherman] "I also get the sense that if I start using Motion in the same way as I use AE, I will run into roadblocks. "What do you mean Motion can't do this or that." or "Boy, I wish I had Optical Flares"."

It's only fair to mention that mFlare is a very decent flare package that compares to Optical Flares and works well inside Motion.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Daniel McClintock
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 6:10:58 pm

I know I'm probably gonna get heat for this, but I only bought Motion so I could have a inexpensive way to receive the ProRes codec.

---------------------------

"Sometimes Life Needs a Cmd-Z!"


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 7:55:45 pm

I've been using Motion pretty much exclusively for about 5 years- to the extent which I'm actually going to be dropping my CC account, and switching over to the photographers plan for Photoshop. I just don't use the other apps...

The only time Ive used AE in the last few years has been for 3D Camera tracking, a feature which I'd very much like to see make it's way into Motion- natively or as a plug-in.

And I think that (to me) is Motion's real achilles heel. As great as Ae is, a lot of the most advanced functionality comes from 3rd party support from Trapcode, Mocha, Video Copilot ect... and while Motion does have great support from companies like Motion VFX and Tokyo Productions, the above guys are missed.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 8:14:05 pm

[Marcus Moore] "And I think that (to me) is Motion's real achilles heel. As great as Ae is, a lot of the most advanced functionality comes from 3rd party support from Trapcode, Mocha, Video Copilot ect..."

You're quite right about third party support for Motion - I think it's very hard for developers to justify Motion-specific products, sadly. However I should point out that Mocha is available for Motion:

https://www.imagineersystems.com/videos/motion-tracking-tutorial-for-apple-...

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 9:09:25 pm

[Marcus Moore] "
The only time Ive used AE in the last few years has been for 3D Camera tracking, a feature which I'd very much like to see make it's way into Motion- natively or as a plug-in."


Have you considered using Syntheyes for tracking? I believe it has an export module for Motion - for $299.00, I don't think you could do better.



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 9:13:03 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Have you considered using Syntheyes for tracking? I believe it has an export module for Motion - for $299.00, I don't think you could do better."

Totally agree - it's one of the very best 3D trackers there is.

Included exporters for After Effects (2- & 3-D, with plugin effects matching SynthEyes's distortion model for AE CC/CS6; PixelBenders for AE CS5.x); Alembic ABC (1.5 Ogawa format); AutoCAD DXF; Bentley Microstation; Biovision BVH (import also); Blender (various ongoing versions); Carrara; Cinema 4D; COLLADA; Combustion (2- & 3-D); Electric Image; Filmbox FBX; FLAIR motion control cameras; Flame (2- & 3-D); Fusion 5 (2- & 3-D); Fusion 7 (very full-featured 3-D & 2-D planar corner pin); Hash Animation:Master; Houdini; Inferno (2- & 3-D); Lidar XYZ; Lightwave; MAXscript (3ds max, 3D Studio VIZ); Maya; Mistika; MDD animated mesh vertices; Modo; Motion(2- & 3-D); Nuke (3-D & 2-D planar corner pin); OBJ meshes; Particle Illusion; PC2 Point Caches; PhotoScan; Poser; Realsoft 3D; Shake (2- & 3-D); Smoke2008 (2- & 3-D); Softimage dotXSI; toxik (pre2009); trueSpace; Vue 5 & 6 Infinite;

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Nicholas Zimmerman
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 6:46:25 pm

I've been fighting with getting 3D tracking into Motion, and SynthEyes is currently the way to go. At the moment Mocha Pro (which I'm a huge fan of) only supports limited shapes and corner pins, about 1/4 of the output available to AE.

________________________________________

NickZimmerman.net
________________________________________


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Jason Watson
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Feb 29, 2016 at 11:25:49 pm

[Marcus Moore] "And I think that (to me) is Motion's real achilles heel. As great as Ae is, a lot of the most advanced functionality comes from 3rd party support from Trapcode, Mocha, Video Copilot ect... and while Motion does have great support from companies like Motion VFX and Tokyo Productions, the above guys are missed."

For me this is a crucial aspect of Ae. When I originally moved from Motion to Ae, it didn't seem like that big of a leap; for what I was doing at least the core functionality seemed fairly interchangeable (although I eventually realized this wasn't really true). But once I started understanding just how extensible Ae was through the sheer amount of 3rd party plugins, scripts, training, tutorials, etc., I realized that much of its value is precisely in that, at least for me.

For me at least it's beyond just effects and such; there are scripts and the like (as an example) that make the actual workflow easier and more efficient for me to manage that Motion doesn't have, at least as of the last time I was working heavily in it. I think that it's because of this that even if Motion suddenly got feature and functionality parity with Ae, it still probably wouldn't cause me to switch back; I'd love to see Apple give it a go, although I'm doubtful they have that sort of scenario in mind for Motion.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 2:14:25 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But is anyone seriously using it for motion graphics?"

Define "motion graphics."

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 3:40:49 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Define "motion graphics.""

All manner of moving graphics or video. Low-level VFX. So, animatics, flying logos, heavy graphics-based composites, green screens, window inserts, simple multi-image composites, composites that require layering over several tracks or layers. IOW - the genre that is largely defined by AE.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 7:04:07 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Walter Soyka] "Define "motion graphics.""

All manner of moving graphics or video. Low-level VFX. So, animatics, flying logos, heavy graphics-based composites, green screens, window inserts, simple multi-image composites, composites that require layering over several tracks or layers. IOW - the genre that is largely defined by AE."


I feel as if this might be harder to define now than it was say, ten years ago. The HUD animations you see in movies like Oblivion or The Avengers, are those VFX or motion graphics? The VFX shots in shows like The Flash or Agents of Shield, are they low end or high end? The HUD graphics in Ironman, are those low end VFX or high end motion graphics? Even 3D camera and object tracking is used in motion graphics projects now, projects that would have been considered VFX work 15 years ago. I'm not saying there aren't lines between VFX and motion graphics, high end and low end post production... but I don't think the lines are as clear as they used to be.



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 7:17:02 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I feel as if this might be harder to define now than it was say, ten years ago."

I think everything you say there is exactly right - "motion graphics" is a much wider and more sophisticated category than it's ever been and only becoming more so all the time.

However, it's important to stress (and you of course know this) that the gulf between even the highest end motion graphics and "true" VFX is getting wider as well. High end VFX shots are vastly more complicated in every sense than the kind of thing we're talking about here and the complexity keeps getting significantly greater. Unfortunately there has been a general blurring of definitions that is quite confusing and often misleading - so you get movies with pretty basic "motion graphics type" effects shots claiming 1000+ VFX in a bid to claim parity with genuine VFX heavy shows. It helps with the marketing buzz but it's a bit cheeky some of the time ...

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 1, 2016 at 8:48:12 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Mar 1, 2016 at 8:51:13 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "
I think everything you say there is exactly right - "motion graphics" is a much wider and more sophisticated category than it's ever been and only becoming more so all the time.

However, it's important to stress (and you of course know this) that the gulf between even the highest end motion graphics and "true" VFX is getting wider as well. High end VFX shots are vastly more complicated in every sense than the kind of thing we're talking about here and the complexity keeps getting significantly greater. Unfortunately there has been a general blurring of definitions that is quite confusing and often misleading - so you get movies with pretty basic "motion graphics type" effects shots claiming 1000+ VFX in a bid to claim parity with genuine VFX heavy shows. It helps with the marketing buzz but it's a bit cheeky some of the time ..."


Yup, I completely agree. It's a fascinating industry that seems to be evolving on a daily basis. It's still mindblowing to me that it might take the efforts of a few hundred (or a thousand) people to deliver a single shot. I'm also fascinated by what's happening on the "low end"; 3D scanning with a DSLR or an inexpensive handheld device, panoramic HDR stills or SDR video capture with a sub $500 device, 3D camera and object tracking in sub $500 applications, 13 stop video cameras that can capture raw, 12bit images for $995, inexpensive to free node based compositing software, "blockbuster strength" 3D rendering software for under $1,000, online render services for $.16 per frame (in some cases), etc. I do agree that the difference between the high end and the low end is complexity (and required labor), but it's pretty cool to see where the ball has moved in terms of overall quality.

Lastly, I agree that part of the confusion about the term 'motion graphics' comes from marketing types... but that's par for the course, I think. :-)



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John Rofrano
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 3, 2016 at 12:33:10 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Even 3D camera and object tracking is used in motion graphics projects now, projects that would have been considered VFX work 15 years ago."
You could use a narrow definition based on the term "graphics". If you are superimposing a graphic on the screen, and it's "moving"... it's a Motion Graphic. If you are just tracking a background on a green screen shot, or adding smoke, that is a visual effect. To me, motion graphics requires a graphics designer or at least "a graphic". Everything else is a VFX.

I would say that tracking a 3D object that is "unnatural" such as 3D text over a moving landscape is considered motion graphics while tracking a 3D object that is supposed to look like it's naturally part of the scene (e.g., a car that wasn't originally there) is a VFX. The same skills and tools can be used to complete each task, but from the perspective of the audience, one is a moving graphic while the other is a visual effect meant to trick them into thinking that it is "real".

To me it all depends on whether you are adding text and logos, or smoke and fire. If someone asked me to add a motion graphic my first questions would be to send me the graphic and describe the motion. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Shawn Miller
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 4, 2016 at 12:14:27 am

[John Rofrano] "You could use a narrow definition based on the term "graphics". If you are superimposing a graphic on the screen, and it's "moving"... it's a Motion Graphic.."

If I create a graphic that looks like a bird in flight, superimpose it on a background plate, and animate it to move across the screen, is it a motion graphic or a visual effect? :-)

[John Rofrano] "If you are just tracking a background on a green screen shot, or adding smoke, that is a visual effect."

What about the moving graphics which were superimposed over an object tracked Robert Downey Jr in Iron Man, were those motion graphics or VFX shots? What if I design a shot where a moving logo catches fire and goes up in a puff of photorealistic smoke... would that be VFX or motion graphics... how about a photorealistic splash of CG water, washing over a dirty kitchen counter to reveal a shiny, clean logo? What if my intent is to have some graphics look real in a shot but not others...:-)

[John Rofrano] "To me, motion graphics requires a graphics designer or at least "a graphic". Everything else is a VFX."

There are a lot of VFX artists who are also graphic designers, and a lot of VFX shots require the creation of some sort of graphic element... where does that leave us? :-)

[John Rofrano] "I would say that tracking a 3D object that is "unnatural" such as 3D text over a moving landscape is considered motion graphics while tracking a 3D object that is supposed to look like it's naturally part of the scene (e.g., a car that wasn't originally there) is a VFX. The same skills and tools can be used to complete each task, but from the perspective of the audience, one is a moving graphic while the other is a visual effect meant to trick them into thinking that it is "real"."

I agree with this to a point - but I also think there are a lot of instances where there's enough cross over, that it might be tougher to classify a shot as one thing or the other. The opening sequences from Entourage, Person of Interest and Pacific Rim come to mind. :-)

Shawn



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John Rofrano
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 4, 2016 at 1:00:53 am

[Shawn Miller] "If I create a graphic that looks like a bird in flight, superimpose it on a background plate, and animate it to move across the screen, is it a motion graphic or a visual effect? :-)"
I guess it would depend on if the bird was a laden or unladen swallow and if it was of African or European descent? ;-)

My take is: If the bird looks real it's a visual effect... if it looks fake it's a motion graphic. lol

...but I get your point.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Shawn Miller
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 4, 2016 at 2:12:48 am

[John Rofrano] "I guess it would depend on if the bird was a laden or unladen swallow and if it was of African or European descent? ;-)

My take is: If the bird looks real it's a visual effect... if it looks fake it's a motion graphic. lol"


Fair enough. :-)



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Walter Soyka
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 3, 2016 at 5:17:27 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Define "motion graphics."

[Oliver Peters] "All manner of moving graphics or video. Low-level VFX. So, animatics, flying logos, heavy graphics-based composites, green screens, window inserts, simple multi-image composites, composites that require layering over several tracks or layers. IOW - the genre that is largely defined by AE."

Personally, my primary use for Motion is what you might call mograph lite: the titling/identity work for integration in FCPX that Apple is pushing. Ae gets everything else that's design-led or remotely close to mograph: the explainers, conference opens and elements, C4D composites, etc.

Although I used to be a heavy Motion user back in the v1/2/early-3 days, my Motion usage has dropped off considerably as I transitioned from editor to designer. Now I only use Motion a couple times a year, while I use Ae nearly every day.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 2, 2016 at 2:33:54 am

[Walter Soyka] "Define "motion graphics.""



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Andre van Berlo
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 3, 2016 at 1:38:04 am

I use Motion quite regularly for making templates for FCPX. I also like to edit the templates I buy from Motion VFX. I'm not a very skilled user but I find my way around motion fairly well as I did a couple of courses from Ripple Training. I really like the integration of the 2 and for my work I've never really needed to have send to motion though it would have been handy once or twice.


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Winston A. Cely
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on Mar 4, 2016 at 7:04:58 pm

I've used it nearly exclusively since it was first released. Granted, most of the work was very simple titling, but my use has expanded. I now teach a high school level class how to use Motion, and don't even touch AE.

Winston A. Cely
Editor/Owner | Della St. Media, LLC

17" MacBook Pro | 2.3 GHz Intel Core i7
4 GB RAM | Final Cut Studio 3 | FCPX | Motion 5 | Compressor 4

"If you can talk brilliantly enough about a subject, you can create the consoling illusion it has been mastered." - Stanley Kubrick


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Djaka Dwiandi
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 5, 2016 at 3:35:09 am

I am considering to buy Motion but when checking the price I get upset as the price is now $79.99 in the app store. Did they upgrade the price when releasing the new version (5.2.3)?


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Michael Gissing
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 5, 2016 at 4:14:34 am

Try Blackmagic Fusion is you want something for free. But sub $80 for software is not expensive really.


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Djaka Dwiandi
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 5, 2016 at 9:22:54 am

Thank you for the tip. I mostly would do motion design, I'll research the capability of the software.


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Djaka Dwiandi
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 7, 2016 at 12:16:27 am

I tried the Fusion It blows my mind! feels like having a ferrari machine on a beetle!
at the end, the fusion blows my mind but the motion wins my pocket, eh I mean heart. LOL


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 5, 2016 at 10:34:43 am

[Djaka Dwiandi] "but when checking the price I get upset as the price is now $79.99 in the app store"

No idea which Store you're looking at (in foreign App Stores the exchange rate plays a big part!), but in the U.S. Store the price has not changed since day one. Nor in the european ones that I frequent.

And really... a measly $79 (if that were the case) for THAT powerful of an app? That's a problem? Seriously?

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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John Rofrano
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 5, 2016 at 12:26:21 pm

I just checked and the iTunes stores still shows $49.99 for me. Maybe there is a currency conversion happening depending on your location as Robin said. It's the deal of the century at anything less than $100 if you consider the power that Motion brings.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Djaka Dwiandi
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 7, 2016 at 12:20:28 am

Yeah right. that what make me confuse. But it turned out that in the Australian store they charged more for the item there... they think Aussies are more wealthy....


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 8, 2016 at 3:19:41 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on May 8, 2016 at 4:27:02 pm

[Djaka Dwiandi] "they think Aussies are more wealthy...."

Like I said... "exchange rate"?? $49 U.S. are roughly $67 AUS... plus tax and what not... bingo. Motion costs $55 U.S. or even more in the various Europe stores as well. It's not some "Australian thing".


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Djaka Dwiandi
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 9, 2016 at 1:25:57 am

You are right.
a bit old news
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/apple-defends-high-costs-technology...


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Michael Hancock
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 5, 2016 at 1:11:59 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "And really... a measly $79 (if that were the case) for THAT powerful of an app? That's a problem? Seriously?
"


Cost is relative. If you're making $3,000 a month it's less than 3% of your take home pay. If you're monthly income is $700, it's more than 11%.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Steve Connor
Re: Is anyone using Motion?
on May 5, 2016 at 4:32:19 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Cost is relative. If you're making $3,000 a month it's less than 3% of your take home pay. If you're monthly income is $700, it's more than 11%.
"


Maybe so but if you can pay for an asset that earns you money with just 11% of your income for ONE month then it's well worth it!


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