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Why the vs 1.0 supporters?

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Sean Morton
Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 5:55:45 pm

I don't understand why everyone is saying this is just like vs1 of fcp and we should all be understanding. There is 10 years of history to build on. They have enough money and engineering dough to invest if they desired they could have made the thing run with a virtual editor in the help menu eliminating all of us from the process. They made a crappy product! They screwed all of those working with budgets that need to think through our yearly capital purchases and have time sensitive purchases. They promised a magical product and gave us a crap program. I have a lot of grace for a couple of dudes righting a shareware version 1 program. Not for apple.
Ridiculous


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 6:09:28 pm

[Sean Morton] "I don't understand why everyone is saying this is just like vs1 of fcp and we should all be understanding. There is 10 years of history to build on. They have enough money and engineering dough to invest if they desired they could have made the thing run with a virtual editor in the help menu eliminating all of us from the process. They made a crappy product! They screwed all of those working with budgets that need to think through our yearly capital purchases and have time sensitive purchases. They promised a magical product and gave us a crap program. I have a lot of grace for a couple of dudes righting a shareware version 1 program. Not for apple.
Ridiculous"


This is a point many have tried to make, but the answer is always to have faith in the second coming. Seems like a pretty weak answer for something that is being marketed as Final Cut Pro version ten, but is actually v1.0 of something else.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Bill Davis
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 7:08:49 pm

Look, it's very, very hard to change people's thinking.
You're thinking this should be FCP 8. Lose nothing, increment changes.
The development team skipped 8 and 9 and went directly to X.
Do you not understand this? Does the blazing sign embodied in the program name itself need to be even clearer?
This is NOT the FCP you knew last month. Get over it.

Neither you nor I are the great exemplar of understanding what editing software must become in order to succeed in the rapidly changing world of modern computing.

You, I, the dev team, it's quite possible for anyone to misunderstand a market - go in a wrong direction - or see something in the future that those not so closely involved inside the industry may not be able to clearly yet see.

Embrace what it is. Get stuck where you are and moan about what it isn't. But sorry, you simply can't convince me that this sucks simple because it isn't what YOU thought it should be.

I'm seeing things in it that i LOVE - and the more I use it, the more it smells like the future to me.

You think I have a rose shoved up against my nostrils and can't fathom the stink. And I think you have a cold and can't smell out the big fresh change on the wind.

One of us is dead wrong. Heck, maybe BOTH of us is wrong and this will end up being something neither of us can see this early.

But a "the sky is falling" rant such as yours had better be backed up with some compelling reasoning as to WHY this whole new foundational approach is off - or you're just nattering. And I don't see anything close to that in your post.

Is leveraging the Core Services built into the new OS a stupid concept? Why will moving from a linear to a more relational database structure in the code prove to be LESS useful? Is sripping down the old bloated code so that it can be distributed electronically rather than pressed onto plastic and boxed in dead trees a foolish choice?

A lot is changing here. But I don't think you can see the forest for the trees. And you probably think I'm just another fanboy. We'll see who's right eventually. Maybe.

Such is life.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 7:40:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "You're thinking this should be FCP 8. Lose nothing, increment changes.
The development team skipped 8 and 9 and went directly to X."


If that is the case, why does it have less functionality then v6? Shouldn't it logically have more?

[Bill Davis] "This is NOT the FCP you knew last month. Get over it."

So far no one has presented a compelling reason to "get over it".
Did you ever have a client that wants free work because in the future he will be doing so much business...yaddah yaddah? I tell them 'future work' can't be deposited in the bank, or put gas in my tank.
Apples promise of 'what the future is going to be' can't even open yesterdays project. Just like the promise of 'future work' doesn't pay today's bills, the promise of future development doesn't help me edit today's projects.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Bill Davis
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 8:16:48 pm

Scott,

It DOES have more. Much, much more. from background rendering to the new core database structure there's a whole new WORLD inside FCP X.

It's just not obvious to most people - and it is definitely NOT what they're used to.

So their reaction is to condem it. I understand that perfectly. I'm just not interested in playing that game. My history tells me it's a losing strategy.

Here's a story from my past that might explain the view.

When I was young man growing up out here in Arizona, I ran into legions of transplanted "back east" newbies who showed up wearing fancy suits and who constantly complained about our "lack of culture" - Where, they asked, are the great art museums, and the great symphonys? I'd politely mention that maybe they were stuck on EUROPEAN history - yeah, they weren't going to find the same resources for THAT out here. But if they could just change their perspective and embrace a different view of what history actually might be, they would find even older native american cultures and vast and different musical traditions like those from south america and mexico that had been around for just as long as the Bach and Brahams that they considered their former cultural touchstones.

Funny, but I'd often run into these types years and years later - wearing cut off shorts and cotton t-shirts, talking about hiking the Apache Trail, and spouting barely-understood native american lore - and - and I LOVED this - complaining about how too many newcomers were clogging the better restaurants and local events.

That is precisely where this debate is getting stuck.

It's largely about what FCP X lacks.

But seeing something that was there - but is now missing is SUPER EASY. What's much, MUCH more difficult is understanding something that's never before been on your radar - and actually SEEING what it might become.

As a writer's analogy it's the difference between stating with a blank sheet of paper and having to create the story - as opposed to copy-editing the story that already exists. Most of the people arguing against FCP X are trying to fit it into the story of their existing workflow. I get that. It's perfectly understandable. But that has little to do with what FCP X actually is. It's NOT an extension of FCP 7. Never was, and NEVER will be. And that's got a lot of people in a tizzy. But it's a reality that MUST be grasped if people want to move on to what might be better.

As to your kvetch about "editing today's work" what's stopping you? Has your FCP 7 stopped functioning? Mine hasn't. As I posted elsewhere here, it continues to percolate along - stable, capable and I know it inside and out. Will it be gone someday? Sure. Stuff changes. That's life.

You can be the guy who sits and rails against the change. Or you can take a deep breath - know that today does NOT equal tomorrow - particularly in a world where it's almost cliche to be an easterner today - move out west - and complain for a while -right up to the point where you discover that everything you hated about moving to the new territory is precisely what you find yourself defending in the next iteration.

Such is life.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Joe Moya
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 8:40:13 pm

FCPX does not offer significantly more than it's competitors...

It only offers significantly different...

If you want to see how background render should be done... you should get your hand on old AVID Liquid editing application... AVID was bought out by AVID not that long ago... so... I am going to bet some good money that the next version of AVID will have some sort of back ground rendering.

BUT... even if it doesn't... it doesn't make any difference because you can currently AMA link video files that require no rendering to edit - period*.

When you are through editing... you only render what you edited (or any portion of your edit)... with FCPX... it is a render all or nothing proposition. IMHO, that is not an advancement of the background rendering process... it is a resource hogging process that I feel certain FCPX will change sometimes in the future. Until then, I think AMA file linking has a distinct advantage over FCPX process of background rendering.

Whether something is SUPER easy or not is mostly dependent upon experience. And... since the experience level for FCPX is pretty low by default... then, the question becomes... Do I want to learn the FCPX application or move on and learn entirely different (and complete) editing application?

The reason customers are stuck on what FCPX can NOT do is because those limitations are serious deal killers for many.

*Note: Using AMA with certain large bandwidth intensive file formats do require a proxy-like/off-line editing that doesn't make AMA linking practical... but, AVID does allow batch recovery of proxy/off-line files conversion using HD source material which makes it easy to edit THEN render for final output. BTW, this is a problem that all editing applications currently experience. And exactly how much of a problem it actually is depends on the hardware limitations and not software.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 9:11:39 pm

[Bill Davis] "You can be the guy who sits and rails against the change. Or you can take a deep breath - know that today does NOT equal tomorrow"

How utterly repugnant. You clearly can't stand that fact some people don't share your faith.

FCP X is nothing but a noble experiment at this point in time. If you wish to put your faith in it, go right ahead. But, don't act as if you have the moral high ground, and don't expect you'll convert others of little faith anytime soon by battering or badgering them with your message.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 9:13:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "Has your FCP 7 stopped functioning?"

Assuming you have a copy of it. Apple secretly ask the VAR to send back the unsold NOS a week before the release of X, and then pulled it without warning from the apple web site.

[Bill Davis] "Has your FCP 7 stopped functioning?"

Perhaps in a more esoteric way. Many may be forced to migrate from a perfectly good and working FCP set-up because of all the bad press this has gotten and the perception that FCP and the users are not professional editors. The whole FCP community has been stigmatized by the lack of backwards comparability, and lack of interchange. For those that work on one time only projects or those that don't need out of house audio, color or mograph work, that may be no big deal. But those that need those workflows, or work on things that are freshened up every few years, or might have to get re-tracked in a foreign language sometime down the road may find producers less willing to go with the FCP editor. It doesn't matter how good you are either. If the customer doesn't have faith the technology used to create his show won't be viable in the future if changes are needed, he's more likely to go elsewhere.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 5, 2011 at 8:49:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "You can be the guy who sits and rails against the change. "

I see you're claiming the moral high ground. I submit that Apple took the moral low road in the way it treated the people who made FCP what is was 2 weeks ago, namely its many, many customers.

This discussion has less to do with the way a new piece of software works than it does with the following:
  • Apple has something like 2 million FCP users.
  • In 24 hours' time, Apple released FCP X, cut off all FCP 7 sales, and eliminated FCP 7 support on its web site.
  • In its current form FCP X is an inadequate substitute for FCP 7, but that is all that's available at the moment.
  • There has been no timetable for fixing the software's numerous, currently-absent capabilities. In so many words, Apple is saying, "We'll fix it. Trust us."
  • Cutting off existing users at the knees is hardly a good way to engender trust.

This has nothing to do with change or the Brave New World Of Editing. It has everything to do with the reprehensible way Apple treated its existing customers. People who rely on FCP to put bread on the table.

I don't care one whit about about FCP X's Magnetic Timeline or the Auditioning or the Auto Analysis or the Compound Clips. I care about respecting the needs of people who ALREADY purchased FCP, and this is where Apple has demonstrated that it is an abysmal failure.

I hope you never have a catastrophic System Disc failure that would force you to abandon FCP 7 in favor of FCP X with a couple of projects in progress for your clients... at least not for a couple of years or the duration of time defined by the term "trust us".

On the other hand, if such a thing did happen it would be interesting to know how your opinion of Apple's software release policies might change... and we should all embrace change, now shouldn't we?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Bill Davis
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:31:31 am

Sheesh, much historical myopia here?

Yeah, there are 2 million FCP seats NOW. After a decade of development.

I don't remember these voices being around in the days when we FCP editors numbered in the hundreds - but I was. It was software that did some things well - and did a LOT of things marginally. I've heard EVERYTHING in these threads before - back in the day.. Over and over and over again. "It sucks" "It will NEVER be pro" It'll never be AVID. It will never be (for gods sake!) as good as Adobe Premier.

NOW the rap is that Apple screws their customers by screwing with YOUR pet software. Sorry, but I've been there and heard it ALL before.

How exactly is this world view different from the dozens of raps Apple had to suffer in the past?

"Apple screws their customers by fostering a CLOSED hardware system."
"Apple screws their customers by not using MOTOROLA chips"
"Apple screws their customers by not supporting FLASH"
"Apple screws their customers by not opening up the OS"
"Apple screws their customers by not being compatible with (insert favorite software or hardware peripheral here)

and on, and on, and on...

All of that "screwing the customers" hurt them SO much that they've only become second most valuable company in the US.

Clearly this indicated that they have no clue how to run their own business, right?

Or, (crazy idea here) they actually DO...

...and the resources, talent and research forces that they can wield to capitalize on the coming changes that they have seen on the horizon - are based on something that we poor editing peasants (myself included) simply haven't seen coming. (Which IS scary, because it's not like we're still in the "editing skills are the key to a great living" era anymore, are we!)

We will see in a few short years whether this, the thousandth time someone has argued to me that Apple has made a BIG HAIRY ASSED MISTAKE, is somehow MORE true this time than all those many, many, many other times in the past.

But I actually try to LEARN from my past experiences. And one of them tells me not to bet against smart. And Apple proves time and time again to be a very smart company. Particularly against an array of competitors that have shown, to my eye at least, only modest innovation in the prior decade.

If FCP X makes it's nut and clears a profit - and I can see no way that it won't - especially considering it's cost's as an exclusively electronic product are NIL outside of the on-going development talent costs - it's going to be a BEAST for those legacy companies loading boxes on trucks as a "modern" business model.

This IS a different game, folks. Just not the one many people keep insisting we're still playing.

For a while, a 'pro video editor" will still be someone who works in a building with a big staff and a parking lot. But like it or not, someday it will be simply a person who understands how to edit. A tablet and the cloud, if it's someday the FUNCTIONAL equivalent of FCP 7 right now or what FCP X will become in a few years - is where the game will be played. Your log in code to the project will be ALL that separates you from your fellow editors. Whoever, wherever and whenever they are called to participate.

If you can't see that coming. Your chosen software package will NOT protect you.

Simple as that, in my view.

If the voices squawking about FCP are right, then I think we'll be, at worst, moving toward software Groundhog Day - a shadowless year more of legacy cardboard box software hell.

But shit, I just finally tossed my 40 lbs of FCP volume 1-6 box crap away back in January - and enjoyed the feeling of shedding the past. Times move on.

And we must all do the same, eventually.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:02:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "...All of that "screwing the customers" hurt them SO much that they've only become second most valuable company in the US. Clearly this indicated that they have no clue how to run their own business..."

Oh, c'mon, man, we all know how Apple makes its money, and it isn't on the late, lamented Final Cut Suite. It's on iPhones, iPads, iPods and assorted other iStuff.

With iStuff, we're talking about the next new nifty gadget, where the worst effect stemming from the elimination of the previous version is a little inconvenience. Eliminate the previous iPhone for the new one? No big deal.

But with FCP, we're talking about software whose popularity grew over the years, that garnered popularity among big-time media professionals, that entire businesses were built around, and that requires substantial ancillary capital purchases to transform it into a powerful professional tool. The new FCP can't even USE that capital equipment.

The thing is, Apple could have offered FCP X while still supporting FCP 7. If the new software really could be the wave of the future, if it could prove its superiority to FCP 7, if it truly could be the welcome paradigm shift you're convinced it is, FCP 7 would die a natural death over the course of months, correct? Let the market take its course, right? Survival of the fittest, right?

If your vision of the future of editing is correct, where's the harm in letting current users make a smooth transition to the new way of doing things? Apple didn't HAVE to leave a couple of million current users high and dry. But it did. Once again, here is the litany of the misdeeds:
  • It mislead the FCP community by offering FCP X as a straight-up replacement for FCP 7, a mature piece of software, and it clearly isn't ready yet. Right now it's a toy, not a professional tool, and there are no guarantees it will ever become a professional tool. So Apple lied.
  • It withdrew sales of FCP 7, that over the course of a decade people built businesses around, and which continues to function the way most users currently need for their work. So Apple cut users off at the knees.
  • It eliminated support of FCP 7, jeopardizing users' ability to maintain their current equipment, workflows and projects, some of which can be revisited from years ago. So Apple dug users a grave and started shoving them in the hole.

You just don't get it, man. I'm not opposed to radically new software. I'm not opposed to new ways of working. I'm not opposed to yet-undiscovered efficiencies. It all sounds pretty great, actually.

I am, however, opposed to corporate arrogance, ignoring your customers' ongoing needs and offering no alternative but a currently-shoddy product with no firm commitments that it will ever get better.

Do you get the point now, or do I have to club you over the head to make it sink in? Apple may have cool new software, but they didn't have to treat their existing customers like dirt, and that is precisely what they did.

Apple keeps talking about how the vast shortcomings in FCP X will be rectified in a matter of months, right? Thus, it will be interesting a year hence to see what's happened. It will be interesting to see if FCP X has evolved into a useful application for the pros, or whether it has languished as a complex toy for those addicted to iStuff.

Place your bets, folks.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Joe Moya
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 8:17:41 pm

For starters...

It is what it is...and, post like yours will do less to help FCPX's case... and,... I feel certain ADOBE and AVID would like to see more "Love it or Leave it" posts.

Contrary to your post that states... "Embrace what it is."....

...I suggest the original poster take a serious look at embracing the competion by migrating to applications that can achieve exactly what FCPX does with no more degree of difficulty in learning that what FCPX will take (specially since you already know how to use FCP). Currently, both ADOBE and AVID are offering exceptional FCP owner conversion prices for their applications. It is pretty obvious, they see blood and are striking while the iron is hot.

As it stands, probably the biggest difference between ADOBE & AVID vs. Apple is that ADOBE and AVID are now definately entrenched in the professional editing market (...thanks to Apple's recent FCPX move/changes). And this change/move does have the appearance that Apple has decided to seak a new direction that might (or might not) include the professional level editing market.

If anyone wants to make a statement that counts.... simply take your money to the competitors - ADOBE and/or AVID. And... If anyone wants ADOBE and AVID to capitalize even moreso than they probably already will because of Apple's changes to FCP... you write "in your face" condescending posts that critisize those who are not happy with Apple.


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Glen Hurd
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 9:51:12 pm

If history is repeating itself, there is more in common with the idea that Premiere will become the new FCP than FCP X.

Here's a list of features that Premiere shares with FCP, at the time it began battling Avid -

Premiere is still considered a "toy" - but actually has all the necessary features to do broadcast work.

Premiere is open to off the shelf hardware - more so than Avid and, of course, FCP X.

Premiere allows you to play with other programs - and does so very well within the Adobe family.

Premiere is inexpensive, but allows you to expand it tremendously - offering more options in codecs, platform, display size and display ratios than FCP X.

Premiere is still the underdog - and is driven to impress the high-tier markets.

Premiere maintains respect for established work-flow and culture. It works at building efficiency and speed, while keeping compatibility with itself and other edit systems.

Premiere is owned by Adobe, which is financially solid, so won't go bankrupt any time soon (ala M100)

And, in order to benefit from recent change, Premiere is the easiest and cheapest broadcast solution for migrating FCP users -

and Apple has forced us all to migrate. Whether now, or 6 months from now, we are all in migration mode. Unless we're retiring.

Going to FCP X is currently a migration with fewer options. How many FCP X supporters have even compared it to Premiere and all it offers? If not, why not? Blinders on? - just kidding.


And if you have broadcast needs, FCP X is expensive because you can't use it. Instead, you have to wait and hope for change, knowing that if it doesn't deliver, you're still 2 + years behind everyone else's development cycle. Not a risk worth taking, no matter what your culture.


In this environment of paradigm shifts and reinvention, Premiere is practically a shoe-in as the new FCP.

So, it sounds like a revolution after all! :) Think different, people.

And regarding your analogy, let me have a try.

We're on a tour, with an aging guide, to look for arrow heads out in the plains of south eastern Colorado. We've been collecting them for years, around the country, and we do know what to look for. The guide is excited, and has shown us photos of his most recent discoveries. They look beautiful, and the range of eras represented is second to none.
We walk up the last hill where the wind is spitting a little sand into our face - perfect for revealing what was buried long ago. And upon arriving there, we see little plastic arrow heads littering the ground.
First, we gasp. Then we bitch. And when we complain, the guide hires some reporter for the NY Times to tell us to be patient. Maybe the plastic arrow heads will help our eyes adjust to finding the real ones. He has a list of 20 reasons why plastic isn't bad.
Then the guide grabs his little flask of whiskey, chugs it down and walks/stumbles away, muttering, "I thought those looked pretty good to me. Whiners."

Heh, heh. :)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 10:17:03 pm

You know Glen, the dinosaurs at the Creation Museum of are made of plastic.

Doesn't it therefore follow that ancient Indians must have had plastic?




David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Glen Hurd
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 11:15:53 pm

Absolutely.
Furthermore, it's rather narrow minded of me to think that the only ancients were human. Some arrow heads could have been brought here from space . . . just be patient, 'cause we're working on that ;)


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 3, 2011 at 11:21:21 pm

[Glen Hurd] "Some arrow heads could have been brought here from space . . ."

Or the could have come through the Stargate.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Why the vs 1.0 supporters?
on Jul 4, 2011 at 8:43:06 am

Actually, they came from Caprica


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