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Dan Turner
Editing software research
on Feb 6, 2016 at 1:09:20 pm

Hi guys

I'm a film lecturer currently researching what editing software is the most commonly used in the industry.

Id be grateful for any input on what you guys use, and what you've found in other post-houses or industry colleagues.

I appreciate its a market thats still influx, but just getting a sense of the position would be enormously helpful.

Thank you!


Dan


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 6, 2016 at 4:19:09 pm

What "industry" are you looking for?


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 6, 2016 at 4:32:42 pm

And you realize of course what people in an FCP Forum are most likely to tell you, right? :-D

I'd say you need far more neutral ground to get a usable, representative result, no? Though I don't actually know where that place could be... :-P

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Bob Zelin
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 6, 2016 at 4:37:05 pm

don't you have a film or video department in your school ?
What are they using ?

Here is your answer -
Adobe Premiere
AVID Media Composer
Final Cut Pro (both Final Cut Pro 7 and Final Cut Pro X).

There are other editing software packages out there, but they are not as popular as the ones I listed above -
they include
Blackmagic Davinci Resolve (editing functions, in addition to color grading).
Grass Valley Edius
Sony Vegas

there are others(Hit Film, etc.)
but that is pretty much what everyone uses.

The market will continue to be in flux. It always has -
Movieola/Steenbeck/Kem
CMX/ISC-GVG Super Edit/Sony 9000/Convergence/Calaway/Stranner/etc
EMC/AVID
and now all the wonderful choices that will continue to be wide spread.

There never has been a time where you can say "learn this, and you don't have to worry about anything else". Your lecture (since you are in the education business) is that if you ever get lazy after learning software XYZ, and think that you will stick with it for the rest of your career, you will be unemployed soon. Continuing education, and constantly being aware of changes in ANY industry is key to success.


How is this going to help your lecture ?

bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Michael Phillips
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 6, 2016 at 4:50:10 pm

It's hard to say - as you mention it is an industry in flux and will continue to be over the next many years. Separating out the theory versus practical system training - it will be based on region, production type, etc. If the goal is to work in Hollywood on studio fare production, there is more Avid than the other NLE's. If you want to work in a broadcast environment, you will find a mix of Avid and Adobe depending on station. There are a few that seem to be implementing FCPx. but those stories (seen here first) seem to point to Europe more than US at this time.

Different departments withing a studio or broadcaster may use something other than Avid - marketing, webisodes, etc.

Commercial houses, trailers, etc. are all a mix of NLE's.

Corporate, houses of worship, WEVA, etc tend to more non Avid NLE, and a healthy mix of Adobe and FCP(x).

"Indie" market is also a mix of everything.

It is interesting to do a job search in different areas using Avid, Adobe, etc as criteria. The last time I did one for the Boston area I got:



and:



One can debate pay scale for Avid jobs versus Adobe jobs, etc. I think that has more to do with union versus non-union and not tied so much to the NLE anymore. It would be interesting to hear what other see in their area. especially outside the NY and LA markets.


Michael


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Noah Kadner
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 6, 2016 at 8:45:42 pm
Last Edited By Noah Kadner on Feb 6, 2016 at 8:46:59 pm

Everyone's is using FCPX- end of story. That was easy research! J/K I'd say Bob + the entirety of this forum is all the info you need. I believe some surveys have been done though most have not been very scientific.
Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP eXchange - FCPX Workshops


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Bob Zelin
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 6, 2016 at 9:53:14 pm

Noah is of course correct.
Everyone has given up on Adobe Premiere, and AVID Media Composer.
And Davinci Resolve, and Vegas, and everything else.
It's only FCP - X in the entire world, except for 3 people. And they are idiots. All the Hollywood features and TV shows are actually done in FCP-X - all the other stories you see about AVID are all lies
from jealous people.

Now Dan, it is your responsibility to invest every last penny that you own in Apple stock right now, and even if there are a few dollars left, either run out to the Apple store and buy everything you can, or just start downloading Apps from the Apple App store. And make sure to get at least 10TB of storage space on iCloud.

both Noah and I will come over to your school to make sure that you are following our advice. OR ELSE !

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Joe Marler
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 6, 2016 at 10:06:35 pm

[Dan Turner] "I'm a film lecturer currently researching what editing software is the most commonly used in the industry.

Id be grateful for any input on what you guys use, and what you've found in other post-houses or industry colleagues.

I appreciate its a market thats still influx, but just getting a sense of the position would be enormously helpful."


In a narrow sense "the industry" means Hollywood. From that standpoint, Avid has at least 90% penetration, although it's hard to give an exact figure. Despite that dominate position, Avid's total annual revenue from software sales is only about $90 million (Avid was temporarily de-listed from NASDAQ in 2014), so the market for video editing software is a steep pyramid.

The Indian "Bollywood" film industry alone does over $2 billion annually, and I expect they probably use a higher % of Premiere and FCP than does Hollywood. What % I don't know.

Due to the democratization of digital video production, a huge amount of corporate, documentary and non-profit content is now produced and distributed via internet. There are now video bloggers who make $10 million per year, and several make $40,000 per month. Most of them do not use Avid, and many are self-produced using Premiere or FCPX.

To my knowledge there is no good data about this. Researching what editing software is used in a given segment would require doing surveys.


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Dan Turner
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 7, 2016 at 9:00:11 am

Thanks for the responses so far. really helpful.

To clarify one point. "Industry" was to mean the film and television industry at large. Both Hollywood/network and Indie.

My research is to help film students who graduate. Trying to give them a sense of which skill set is best to have, by being most proficient in the dominant editing software.

Interested to hear from all UK folk here, but equally anyone, because editing isn't limited by geography.

Thanks again!


Dan


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Steve Connor
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 7, 2016 at 12:37:19 pm

If their path is Film and TV then it's Avid first without a doubt


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 7, 2016 at 1:19:54 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Feb 7, 2016 at 1:20:45 pm

[Steve Connor] "If their path is Film and TV then it's Avid first without a doubt"

Only in L.A., without a doubt.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Herb Sevush
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 8, 2016 at 2:26:56 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Only in L.A., without a doubt."

Only if you think NYC is part of LA.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 8, 2016 at 3:34:27 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Feb 8, 2016 at 3:37:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Only if you think NYC is part of LA."

Wow. That's almost gets us to the 2% overall mark! Just not quite.

But yeah, as we all know, the only relevant and existing market is of course the U.S. one. Gotta stop forgetting that.

- RK


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Charlie Austin
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 7, 2016 at 7:56:33 pm

[Dan Turner] "by being most proficient in the dominant editing software."

It's really not that difficult to become proficient in more than one NLE. I've done it and I'm old and busted. ;-) In fact, these days you absolutely should do that. They're all relatively inexpensive to either buy or rent, and most of them offer free trials for long enough to learn them if you apply yourself. IMO, If you want to work in the "future", you'll need to know all the main (Avid, Adobe, Apple) tools.

Also, FCP X is the best. :-D .... kidding!, it's Lightworks... umm, I mean Hit Film... crap!, I meant Sony Catalyst!

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 7, 2016 at 9:08:18 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I've done it and I'm old and busted. ;-)"







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Andrew Kimery
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 7, 2016 at 9:40:54 pm

[Dan Turner] "To clarify one point. "Industry" was to mean the film and television industry at large. Both Hollywood/network and Indie."

'Hollywood' films and scripted, 'network' TV shows are by and large done on Avid. Reality TV shows are also done on Avid 9 times out of 10. The lower down the pyramid you go the less you see Avid used so only knowing Avid probably isn't the best idea. Keep in mind that the film industries in places like Louisiana, Georgia, Toronto, Vancouver, New Mexico, etc., are extensions of Hollywood so the same tendencies apply (though I think most of the film work in those places is production and post either ends up in LA or NYC).

Based on job postings I've seen that are mainly from LA and NYC (both scripted and unscripted) I'd say Avid is the most requested, Premiere Pro is a growing number two, FCP 7 is a falling number 3 and FCP X is a growing number 4. Asking people that don't already know FCP 7 to learn it now is a bit of a waste of time, IMO, so I would tell them to have working knowledge of Avid, Premiere Pro and FCP X because you never know where you are going to end up (especially if you are just coming out of school).


[Dan Turner] "My research is to help film students who graduate. Trying to give them a sense of which skill set is best to have, by being most proficient in the dominant editing software."

Off the top of my head here are some things I'd tell students before telling them which NLE to focus on:

1. Work/volunteer at post facilities so you can learn how things work in the 'real world' as opposed to how you made things work for class projects and homemade movies.

2. Have a 10yr plan with short, medium and long term goals (ex. 2yrs out, 5yrs out and 10yrs out). Anyone expecting to go to a major market and work on major projects as an editor right out of school is delusion, and w/o a plan you can spend years spinning your wheels or unknowing head in a direction that isn't where you want to end up.

3. It's a never ending grind that will chew up the majority of people and spit them out so be tenacious, patient, and mentally prepared to have more failures than successes. The people that 'make it' are the survivors, not necessary the best or most talented. And by never ending I mean never ending. I know people that have primetime network credits and have been working in LA since the 80's and they still hit dry spells every now and then.

4. Be financially prepared too. If you don't have at least 8 months of living expenses (rent, car, food, phone, etc.,.) don't move to the big city. Once you are in the big city keep at least 8-12 months of living expenses in the bank at all times. Places like LA and NYC are expensive and running out of cash is a surefire way to derail your career goals.

5. Have fun and just because you will most likely fail doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a shot anyway. "Because it's there" doesn't just apply to Mt. Everest.


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Noah Kadner
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 9, 2016 at 4:17:52 am

Yeah I have a good editor friend who started from scratch so to speak working for many years first as an editorial intern, later as an assistant and finally a pretty well respected and paid union Avid network TV editor in L.A..

Along the whole way, she worked her tail off night and day, was super talented and super dedicated. And it took her probably 10 years to get to a place of making a comfortable living at editing.

So yeah I would focus less on learning which keys do what in which app and more on the storytelling skills. Have them shoot stuff and put it together so they understand what's involved. Have them learn to be great assistant editors because that's the entry point for the profession.

And also be realistic that if they don't absolutely love editing to the core of their souls they shouldn't waste their time going to Hollywood/NYC. Because there are just too many others who live sleep and breathe it competing for the same jobs.

That said, there's plenty of lower profile gigs in the corporate/local broadcast/media departments etc. Where you can make a decent living without killing yourself carrying someone's coffee for 5 years just to get your foot in the door. Also a lot of us on this very forum make a living as shooter/editor services for hire- be it event videography, commercials, etc.

So it really depends what a student wants to do. I'd start out with storytelling skills. Learning Avid/Premiere/FCPX are certainly fine but you can go through the basics of any of them in a week. The rest is luck, perseverance and talent.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
FCP Exchange - FCPX Workshops


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 9, 2016 at 10:54:19 am

[Noah Kadner] "So yeah I would focus less on learning which keys do what in which app and more on the storytelling skills."

Exactly. A shi**ty commercial concept or movie script cannot be fixed by using a certain NLE. Avid always touts that "all the best movies are cut on Avid...". What about the real terrible movies? Cut on something else? Nope. Concept is king. The nuance and rhythm of storytelling rules. The NLE is secondary.


[Noah Kadner] "Have them shoot stuff and put it together so they understand what's involved."

and do it with an iPhone and iMovie to take the "best stuff" argument out of the picture.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 9, 2016 at 5:06:10 pm

Ultimately it comes down to what the intent of the course is. If you are trying to make your students employable when they get out of school within your surrounding area, then you need to teach the dominant tool used by post folks in your area. For example, I'm in Central Florida and in that case it would be Premiere Pro. Concepts are important, but hands on knowledge is also important.

OTOH - if you are trying to make them useful in the greater film/TV/video industry (i.e. it's general film program), then it will be a while before they are entrusted with cutting anyone's stuff. Therefore, concepts, and in general, end-to-end workflow, are more important than actual software manipulation.

If you teach the concepts around track-style editing, then Premiere is a viable teaching template for nearly everything else - Avid, Resolve, FCP7, Edius, Lightworks, etc. If you only teach them FCPX, then they are good on editing concepts, but will be at a loss if their first task is to work with a track-style editor.

In an ideal world, you should teach at least two of these and I would suggest these be FCPX and Premiere Pro.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andy Field
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 13, 2016 at 3:51:23 am

LA New York Network scripted shows - still primarily avid -- I work at ABC News and they're still using AVID for broadcast news programs but dipping a toe in Adobe and FCP X for field work with one man band producer/ shooter / reporters

Premiere's making inroads in "Hollywood" as evidenced by scores of films cut on that NLE at Sundance this year -- primarily because it's an easy switch for FCP 7 editors - in fact you can set up Premiere to act almost identically to FCP 7 down to the keyboard shortcuts..

I know Voice of America has switched most of their aging FCP 7 seats to Premiere (I helped train some of the editors there)

FCP X is an easy decision for corporations and editors not necessarily coming from another NLE......harder for legacy editors to wrap their noggins around Apple's new way of doing things and a frustrating (for legacy editors) lack of tracks for mixing (it can be done with roles but it's a bit of a Texas two step compared to the straight forward it's right in front of you way other NLE's do this)

All in all I use them all.....prefer Premiere...but occasionally need Motion and FCP X to do something ...and AVID when a client has a project already cut on that NLE --

Frankly students need to know them all today -- if they're heading to Feature work -- AVID and Premiere seem to be the dominant players.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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MIke Guidotti
Re: Editing software research
on Feb 17, 2016 at 5:36:48 pm

And don't forget live TV where people are using EVS and others...


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