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what is editing speed ?

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Herb Sevush
what is editing speed ?
on Dec 1, 2015 at 11:07:43 pm
Last Edited By Herb Sevush on Dec 2, 2015 at 3:49:37 pm

I wanted to starting a new thread based on this whole concept of editing speed.

As per the previous thread ( https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/85784 ) I agree that it is hard to quantify exactly what this means and I have a hard time believing that anyone can prove that NLE A is 50% faster than NLE B in most situations for most editors, since the variety of workflows is as enormous as the number of editors out there performing them.

I do remember "NLE shoot-outs" years ago where teams of editors using different NLE's worked against the clock on the same project. These tests were as inconclusive and silly as they sound.

When most editors talk about "speed" one of the things they are talking about is having specific commands and keyboard shortcuts to enable as much work with the fewest keystrokes as possible. This presumes, for the most part, that the editor already knows what he/she wants to accomplish - replace a shot, export a file, move a section to somewhere else in the timeline. The more often the task is needed, the fewer the keystrokes desired.

Another aspect of speed is GUI responsiveness. How quickly does the NLE respond to commands, how much "lag" is there when scrolling the timeline, how often does the program quit or freeze, how quickly can you recover from a crash.

A third aspect of speed has to do with how the program helps in organizing the project, what tools does it give you for sorting, labeling and finding clips and information, how flexible to ingest and get to work, how easy to export and finish.

Finally there is the speed that comes from an integrated toolset - if compositing, mixing, audio repair, titling, and color correction are part of the job how easy is it to do within the ecology of the NLE and how easy are the tools to interact with others to accomplish these tasks.

You would be hard put to analyze each of the major NLE's in all these aspects of editing in all the work that you as an individual editor does in the course of a year, let alone to analyze it for the workflows of the thousands and thousands of editors out there.

While I think any objective speed comparison for NLE's is a fools errand, I think it's an important aspect of an NLE that the editor "feels" like its fast. I take it as a very good sign for FCPX that so many who use it "think" it makes their work go faster - this subjective experience need not be quantifiable to be acknowledged, as long as it's understood for what it is. If it feels 50% faster, well that's a good thing, even if that whole notion is undefinable as fact.

The other thing I wanted to say about speed is that for me the greatest resource and tool I have as an editor is time away from the project. In the work I do I have a certain allotted amount of time for each show - and while I hate to feel like my NLE is slowing me down I don't know that I would edit any faster if I could do the same job in half the keystrokes - I need time away - lunch time, next day time, do a long export time, do another project time, do my bills time, write these stupid posts time - in order to look at my work with a fresh eye. The lack of objectivity that occurs when I become overly exposed to the edit I am working on is the most destructive aspect of editing and there is nothing keyboard shortcuts can do to help that.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Michael Gissing
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 1, 2015 at 11:17:43 pm

Ergonomics for me is the key. A comfortable work space to get into the zone and a physical setup that means I can get through a lot without it hurting. Simple things like monitor placement make a huge difference to eye scan and fatigue.

Redundant key strokes or excessive mouse movement are a pet peeve when it comes to software but often that changes with dedicated control hardware. I am far more likely to edit with Resolve than Pr now as I have the Tangent Wave controller.

A jog wheel! rotary pots! You just can't work as fast and accurately with keyboard and mouse. Mostly the editing for me is purely in regards to grade & finishing but the small jobs I do need to edit my proficiency with a regularly used piece of software makes me much faster than remembering keystrokes on a keyboard although a lot of software allows for key mapping. Even so it can be as simple as screen layouts and icon like symbols or knowing where things are in menus.


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 1, 2015 at 11:37:22 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Ergonomics for me is the key"

The best money I ever spent on my editing system was for my chair.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Scott Witthaus
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 12:01:28 am

[Herb Sevush] "The best money I ever spent on my editing system was for my chair."

My neck, shoulders, elbows and wrist agrees with you 100%.

When I ran a post house here in town, I had an occupational therapist come in and evaluate each of my editor/artists desks, chairs and setups. Some of the best money we ever spent.

sw

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 12:17:58 am
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Dec 2, 2015 at 12:24:08 am

I think FCPX is constricted. I think there are less rooms. I think there aren't enough places to slot enough different constructs of footage to hand, given the monolithic single process brick interface workflow.

I have lots of problems with X, but I mostly reject the lack of available constructed mental squirrel holes. You need string out tabs to scan, sometimes you need scattered floating bins at the edge, and pancake timelines - while oversold, can be serious business sometimes. Each case is very real, they all have worth, and none are available to you in X. They all represent messy opportunities for critical lateral decisions, which is a speed of its own at the business end when you're scrabbling.

In a way I wonder what we're talking about here with this notion of speed. Is it a mechanistic predetermined edit assembly flow? Is that the X magic sauce? Are X editors juiced by slavishly following the apple editing heuristic flow bible? Are they simply secondary storyline conditioned automatons bred to produce content?

I feel terrible saying it. Is that what this is? That seems such an awful irresponsible thing to have said. Well now I feel bad.

http://ogallchoir.prosite.com/
producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 5:40:34 am

Yes it's a Rabbit hole to define.

But for me the change in productivity is clear and quite simple.

For 10 years I edited one way - basically the same way as everyone I come up with during that era approached the type of general business editing that became the hub of my practice. It's what made FCP Legend a legend. Import footage. Build and increment and manage your capture scratch. Build your timelines layer by layer. (For most of that time, make changes and wait for renders to complete) and eventually plop out a finished project after some rounds of revisions. Eventually archive the whole thing.

Seems to me that the percentage of how my time was divided was always spread out about the same for all of that working decade. Yes, get to know your assets and pay attention during log and capture - BUT The pressure was to BUILD A TIMELINE. On the tight deadlines, even if everything wasn't in place - the sooner you started building timelines - the better off you were. They needed to be built, rendered, watched and then tweeked as little as necessary to avoid the re-render penalty. Yes, typically, even render time was OK because it was thinking time as Herb notes. Time to think is good time.

Then X came along for me and things changed in my fundamental thinking. Over that first year or learning, I slowly realized that I didn't FEEL the same about getting a timeline going. In the initial stages of editing - a timeline was not the focus. Working with the assets was different. Any idea that came up didn't NEED a timeline. I could use a keyword to tag footage into groups - and as I did that, I was saving editing INTENTIONS that I could recall later.

Tagging 5 scenes with one custom keyword was EXACTLY the same as doing a 5 scene stringent on a workspace timeline had once been. Except that instead of a fixed arrangement, it was a fluid pool or ideas - triggered by the collection itself. A group of tagged clips called "for the close" - got stuff I'd seen that I thought would be useful in the close. Unarranged, dynamic, but pre-trimmed and SAVED.

And suddenly cutting the program close went from something that took 20 minutes to something that often took TWO minutes. I'd thought about the assets for the close. Marked them. Percolated about them mentally. If anywhere along the way I saw something that might ADD value to the close - or another group of assets that make make a better version 2 of the close - It got THAT tag. And when it was time to actually CUT the close - the focus and ALL the trigger ideas were perfectly organized for me. I'd had CLOSE thinking over and over and over again as I worked - all instantly saved as keyworded range assets. And those collections, thoughts, and the ability to magnetically attach and refine just the CLOSE grouping using the CLOSE 1 OR CLOSE 2 IDEAS - or a mixture of each as needed - was super fast.

My brain = after 10 years of cutting things one way - had what felt to ME like a much better way. Less disjointed. Less scattered. Less rigid. For the first time - playing in the footage WAS editing. Making choices and judging narrative elements and SAVING those decisions - on the fly - before a timeline even existed.

Thats the fun of X for me. When I get to the storyline stage - there are not just bins of clips - there are all my snippets of assets and ideas marked and annotated and typically even pre-edited - so that a HUGE part of the assembly is already coded into the structure of my prep.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Typical for me after I got pretty fluid with X was that I was often days LATE getting my Timeline STARTED compared to my prior non-X decades of editing - but usually way MORE days EARLY getting the jobs done and delivered.

That's why this whole obsession on how FAST is editing in X compared to editing in Premiere Pro or AVID is so screwy. It seems to be of interest of people who want to compare how fast you can build a timeline.

But in X, when you start to build a timeline - you might EASILY already be 50% done with your actual edit work. So what's to compare?

Done properly keyboarding in X IS editing. But if you're doing traditional timeline editing, thats not what most think of as Editing. It's Prep. But the way X works, Range based work isn't Prep if you do it the way X is designed. It IS editing. But you've got to know enough and recognize enough of the potential to work that way.

If you just operate X (or just THINK of how X works exclusively in terms of how a traditional NLE works - then you just focus on laying down and cutting scenes in order - then SURE you're not going to believe X is faster than any other NLE. Because it isn't. X is only faster if it's driven like X is designed to operated. And if you just drive X even remotely like you drove your prior NLE - (which is quite possible and I see it all that time from X newbies) - you likely won't be THAT much faster. It would be like buying a nice sharp electric hedge trimmer - and swinging it at the hedge as if it were a machete.

X is only fast if you let it be X.

THAT I know.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 1:46:17 pm

[Bill Davis] "That's why this whole obsession on how FAST is editing in X compared to editing in Premiere Pro or AVID is so screwy. It seems to be of interest of people who want to compare how fast you can build a timeline."

That was the point of this thread. Editing begins when the editor starts evaluating assets (which sometimes happens on set before you even physically receive the assets) and ends when you ship your deliverables. Any tool that helps get the best product out in whatever time was allotted is valuable and the entire notion of "speed", other than as a subjective feeling that encourages the editor, is pretty hazy.

If X helps you organize your assets in a way that is efficient and productive for you then it seems like a good fit.

I like watching my material in a timeline because I get a constant visual reference of length and pacing that is lacking when marking in a bin. My multiple timelines are someone else's multiple bins or keyword collections. So while it might look like I'm hurrying to work on a timeline, I'm going thru the same review and conceptualization process that you describe in your work. The flow of editing remains the same even if the paths to getting there seem so different.

My analogy is baseball (not cars) - different hitters often have wildly different stances when they stand in the batters box, but as the pitcher release the ball and the hitter starts his swing, all good hitters come to the same starting point before launching forward - different initial approaches leading to the same eventual swing mechanics.

In editing there are a near infinite number of ways to approach cutting a show but in the end you have to evaluate, organize, assemble, review, manipulate and repeat over and over again no matter what your work habits look like. As Goddard said "a story should have a beginning, a middle and an end, but not necessarily in that order."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Mark Smith
Re: what is editing speed ?sh it had
on Dec 2, 2015 at 2:20:24 pm

I agree with Bill. Once I got my X organizational skills sorted out, I realized that i was doing a ton of productive editing pre -pro while screening and organizting my material. Then when it comes to assembling a time line I feel like i KNOW my assets and with the way X works I can assemble and play around with my material freely.

I have some fights with X from time to time over features that I wish it had, but for the most part now that I have my working method sort out a bit, I mostly find X gets out of my way and lets me compose with my assets in a way that is much less restrictive than Legacy.


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Neil Goodman
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 3:21:42 pm
Last Edited By Neil Goodman on Dec 2, 2015 at 3:23:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "playing in the footage WAS editing. Making choices and judging narrative elements and SAVING those decisions - on the fly - before a timeline even existed."

I see people say this alot when working with FCPX.

This has always been the way i worked in all NLE's. Spot the footage - make markers - subclips, in and out selections, really whittle it down in the bins so I'm educated before i hit the timeline. I make stringout timelines too but theres alot that goes on before i get ot that point.

How is that unique to X? And what was stopping you from doing it in 7 or one of the other NLE's?


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 4:27:17 pm

[Neil Goodman] "How is that unique to X?"

Neil,

Nobody is saying it is UNIQUE to X. What I'm saying is X is uniquely built in a way that greatly ENHANCES this process for me.. From the first time you confront any asset at any stage in X editing - As you start to understand the shape of and essential character of those assets - X uniquely gives you an internal tool - the keyword database - purpose designed to let you instantly select, tag, refine, notate, and SAVE your thinking about them.

Sure people did this before X. In fact there's an argument that you can't edit without doing it.

But X is structured into a system of tools (keywords, magnetic behavior and more) that arguably make it more intuitive, flexible and, yes, fast - in which to express and SAVE your editing ideas as you work.

Nobody has ever argued that you can't do these things without X.

It's the re-thinkiing that everyone found so STRANGE about X initially - that is EXACTLY what makes it fast and fluid.

It's our old argument. X is less because it's TOO different - verses X allows you more speed and freedom exactly because it IS different.

In the beginning, there were very few of us saying the latter. Now there are wordwide cadres of editors who are saying this.

That still says nothing about whether it will be faster or better for YOU. It just says that beneath the difference, was a lot of smart re-thinking and careful analysis by the X development team - led by Randy U - that had REASONS for the change they coded into X.

At first, MANY people couldn't really see the value of the differences. But now that's changed. Those of us who love it - large swaths of fellow editors worldwide now - are there with whom we can share our constant excitement about how it's changed what we do - how we think - and how we approach our working days.

And a LOT of us find it just more fun to cut in.

I know I do.

That's all.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 8:12:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "And a LOT of us find it just more fun to cut in. "

This is my experience. It brought some joy back to an often tedious process and gives me more time to color grade or play with other ideas for the edit.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Neil Goodman
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 11:45:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "Neil,

Nobody is saying it is UNIQUE to X. What I'm saying is X is uniquely built in a way that greatly ENHANCES this process for me.. From the first time you confront any asset at any stage in X editing - As you start to understand the shape of and essential character of those assets - X uniquely gives you an internal tool - the keyword database - purpose designed to let you instantly select, tag, refine, notate, and SAVE your thinking about them.

Sure people did this before X. In fact there's an argument that you can't edit without doing it.

But X is structured into a system of tools (keywords, magnetic behavior and more) that arguably make it more intuitive, flexible and, yes, fast - in which to express and SAVE your editing ideas as you work.

Nobody has ever argued that you can't do these things without X.

It's the re-thinkiing that everyone found so STRANGE about X initially - that is EXACTLY what makes it fast and fluid.

It's our old argument. X is less because it's TOO different - verses X allows you more speed and freedom exactly because it IS different.

In the beginning, there were very few of us saying the latter. Now there are wordwide cadres of editors who are saying this.

That still says nothing about whether it will be faster or better for YOU. It just says that beneath the difference, was a lot of smart re-thinking and careful analysis by the X development team - led by Randy U - that had REASONS for the change they coded into X.

At first, MANY people couldn't really see the value of the differences. But now that's changed. Those of us who love it - large swaths of fellow editors worldwide now - are there with whom we can share our constant excitement about how it's changed what we do - how we think - and how we approach our working days.

And a LOT of us find it just more fun to cut in.

I know I do.

That's all.
"


Appreciate the response.

Theres alot of things I do like about X - and I consider myself to be pretty versed in it by now. Just havent drank the kool-aid full on yet.

Theres just too many options out there at the moment that are "Normal" and do the job just as quick.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 8:33:58 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I do remember "NLE shoot-outs" years ago where teams of editors using different NLE's worked against the clock on the same project. These tests were as inconclusive and silly as they sound."

The other variable is that NLEs don't perform the same in all situations so even though NLE ABC might be really good in one scenario it might not be quite as good as NLE XYZ in a different scenario.


[Michael Gissing] "Redundant key strokes or excessive mouse movement are a pet peeve when it comes to software but often that changes with dedicated control hardware. I am far more likely to edit with Resolve than Pr now as I have the Tangent Wave controller. "

Yeah, once you get use a control surface for grading there is no going back. It's the difference between playing a piano with both hands vs 1 finger.

On a similar note, I've largely retired the keyboard from my setup. In it's place is a Logitech G13 game controller. It takes a bit to get dialed in, because you really start thinking about what shortcuts you use the most and why, but I love it. I've always been a custom keyboard layout guy though. I also use a 6 button programmable mouse so I only need the keyboard for text entry and not frequently used keyboard shortcuts. For a long time I used a Wacom but I gravitated back to mice a couple years ago (have a vertical mouse currently for ergonomics).


[Bill Davis] "Yes it's a Rabbit hole to define.

But for me the change in productivity is clear and quite simple. "



This is probably the best description I've read about X in this regard. I know you've raised the same points many times before, but this seems the most concise and effectively illustrative of what you are trying to get across.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 3, 2015 at 1:21:08 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Dec 3, 2015 at 1:25:32 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "The overweening presumption that this is somehow true for all types of editing is insufferable to me.

Apologies in advance to anyone whom this might offend."


Don't worry Simon. It's impossible to offend me on this. And I'm sorry it's causing you such Angst.

So, if I understand you - you can't conceive of a communication type where horizontal stringout to establish rhythm isn't the ultimate soul of the exercise? Strange, I can.

The way you and I are trained to notice and work within a traditional visual rhythm, perhaps, but maybe there's a kid out there who thinks of rhythm differently?. Maybe he or she wants to build emotional constructs instead of story flows FIRST and would rather spend time thinking about whether there's enough Aggressive tagged clips for a needed flow of narrative IN ADVANCE of setting up for failure because there is NOT. And maybe he or she wants to LAYER those for emotional build - but ONLY if there are enough pieces to fit inn the time slot being imagined. X can do that in seconds. A string out to do that? No thanks.

In X. Tag for Aggressive. RATE for Aggressive. Rate for Sad. Where does it show me SAD in your string-out? WHY DOESN"T IT? I have to squint and GUESS which is the most AGGRESSIVE asset. Why? Because only some of those concepts can be as easily attached to a traditional assembly. The same clip CERTAINLY can't occupy ALL those same tagged folders in a traditional timeline without wasteful duplication.

In X you can do all that right now. Establish thinking that INFORMES your architecture in advance of your stroyline rhythmic work. If you think the ONLY BEST way to do that is folders full of clip copies or linear stringouts - I call BS. Could I argue that an editor hasn't really gone beyond what you're used to - if the idea that noticing that you've tagged parts of the same clips as Silly, Excellent AND Sad - is a higher level of thinking than ""What was that scene that was all over the emotional map? 105 take 2 or 105 take 6??? In X, it doesn't matter. want it (those/simiar) and it's THERE.

That fact alone may codify new thinking for you. Or it may not. You might stop your tagging at at B-roll. And Scene 105. That's fine. But it's not interesting.

Look at how the older arts have confronted prior traditions. Can it be fine art without traditional representation? Ask Jackson Pollack or Joan Miro. Can there be music without melody? Sure. Without Rhythm. Also sure. So why do moving pictures need the tyranny of traditional linear string-out structure? I might like that scaffold. And you might. But maybe somebody else won''t.

Again, this doesn't argue it's not useful. I'm just not willing to stop thinking because you tell me it's NECESSARY and get mad when I think about a space where it might be less constraining.

The problem is that seems to be ALL you are willing to allow with your strain of argument. If you don't STRING-OUT for horizontal timing you're NOT a good editor. - you are not allowed to do something different FIRST - THEN maybe re-visit for pace and rhythm. Well, maybe editors will find new ways to establish pace and rhythm?

I'm just disappointed that you are so stuck on this way being WRONG. It would like somebody saying Schoenburg was WRONG because he didn't use a "proper" scale. (Wait, they DID say that didn't they? Oops.)

As far as X has dragged me away from my traditions, I'm still stuck thinking mostly like a traditional editor.

And sorry, but it's BECAUSE that's all I could learn with the rigid rules of my training period.

When Tom Carter put the audio tracks UP in the Honda Ad, - it freaked me out. I'd never seen that before. But he's young. He didn't know he shouldn't - so he did it naturally - and won every award in sight because his editing thinking was FAR less constipated than mine.

I won't soon forget that.

And perhaps the next big surprise for me will be seeing an edit some kid does where the rhythm takes place in VERTICAL X-connected blocks rather than horizontal crawling over clips like we think now. Maybe he's in his room with a loop running half a second duration while he works ONLY vertically in connected clips playing the V key like a maestro. Good for him. He's diminished the idea of UNFOLDING - in favor of looped EVOLVING. Whatever. I just don't want him NOT trying it because he reads here that you MUST have String outs to be a good editor.

(by the way, II don't even know that might look or sound like. But maybe someday I will!)

That's the fun of X. I'm no longer quite so sure about what I CANNOT do -BECAUSE I've realized that a good number of the rules may have changed because there's a new tool available.

Arguments that NO tool that doesn't work the traditional way (HORIZONTAL STRING-OUTS or GO AWAY?

Nope. NOT going to struggle to stay in that world.

There MAY ACTUALLY not EVER be a better way to edit than what we were doing 15 years ago. It IS a possibility. But if so, the world is a sadder place than I thought.

And that's NOT where I want to live.

Just some rambling thoughts. But what do I know.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Neil Goodman
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 3, 2015 at 1:54:55 am

[Bill Davis] "Tag for Aggressive. RATE for Aggressive. Rate for Sad. Where does it show me SAD in your string-out? WHY DOESN"T IT? I have to squint and GUESS which is the most AGGRESSIVE asset. Why? Because only some of those concepts can be as easily attached to a traditional assembly. The same clip CERTAINLY can't occupy ALL those same tagged folders in a traditional timeline without wasteful duplication.
"


But you can tag and keyword clips in traditional NLES too. Even ones that are on a stringout. Its just not called Keywording or rating but its in there.

Make a marker on a clip in Avid - type your keyword Agressive in. Pull up the marker window - Boom - Keywords are right there. Click on one - its brings you right to the clip.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 3, 2015 at 8:32:27 am

[Neil Goodman] "Make a marker on a clip in Avid - type your keyword Agressive in. Pull up the marker window - Boom - Keywords are right there. Click on one - its brings you right to the clip."

In the current version of Avid MC (8.x) markers are searchable using the Find tool so you don't even need to pull up the Marker window. A while back I worked on a doc and all the important info was generally in the file name, comment field, or marker so I would just type in the name of what I was looking for in the Find tool (i.e. "Bob Smith 1963" or "feet walking") and get my clips that way. It got to the point where I didn't need to venture into the bins themselves very often, I just did a keyword search for what I was looking for.

What Avid lacks though (unless this feature was just added) is being able to save your search results to a bin. PPro has this feature called "Search Bins" (you can set search parameters and all results will be copied into the bin) but the search tool needs to be much more robust to really make this feature shine.


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Neil Goodman
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 3, 2015 at 7:54:09 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "In the current version of Avid MC (8.x) markers are searchable using the Find tool so you don't even need to pull up the Marker window. A while back I worked on a doc and all the important info was generally in the file name, comment field, or marker so I would just type in the name of what I was looking for in the Find tool (i.e. "Bob Smith 1963" or "feet walking") and get my clips that way. It got to the point where I didn't need to venture into the bins themselves very often, I just did a keyword search for what I was looking for.

What Avid lacks though (unless this feature was just added) is being able to save your search results to a bin. PPro has this feature called "Search Bins" (you can set search parameters and all results will be copied into the bin) but the search tool needs to be much more robust to really make this feature shine."



You can search in bins now and even in the timeline, and yea knew about the find tool.

Just wanted to point out Keywording and rating has been around in Avid for 20 years. Just not called Keywording.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 3, 2015 at 8:50:29 pm

I didn't mean search in bins, but to have your search results from the Find tool appear in a bin. For example, I can use markers to tag portions of multiple clips with the keywords "marching feet" and use the Find tool to find them all, but the results only show up in the Find tool. I'd like a "save results to bin" option so that I don't have to repeatedly search for "marching feet" every time I need a shot of marching feet.

I agree that the concept of "tagging" footage isn't new to X, but what is new is an increased ability/useability to organize via metadata as opposed to just the 'physical' location of a clip in a bin or in a timeline. PPro added this functionally with Search Bins, but as I mentioned before the search tool needs to be made more robust for he Search Bin feature to shine.


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Tony West
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 5, 2015 at 1:22:57 pm

[Neil Goodman] "Just wanted to point out Keywording and rating has been around in Avid for 20 years. Just not called Keywording.
"


To be fair, the level of detail that you could search at in X was not available 20 years ago.

That Find Tool in MC got really refined in v6 that came out after X

When I chose X in 11, it was the only program that I knew of that could recall clips with this level of detail.

Other programs copied this and now they can do it also, but that wasn't the case early on.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 3, 2015 at 8:01:44 am

[Bill Davis] "When Tom Carter put the audio tracks UP in the Honda Ad, - it freaked me out. I'd never seen that before. But he's young. He didn't know he shouldn't - so he did it naturally - and won every award in sight because his editing thinking was FAR less constipated than mine. "

So are you saying FCPX can enable people to make better edits?

Should we move the discussion from speed to quality?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 3, 2015 at 11:50:12 am

[Bill Davis] "
Don't worry Simon. It's impossible to offend me on this. And I'm sorry it's causing you such Angst. "


Thanks for your reply, Bill.

As you know, we both have a history of spectacularly misunderstanding one another, but this time my argument seems to have whooshed majestically over your head like some space vehicle out of Star Wars.

I thought I’d made it clear what I was saying right at the start of my post, but perhaps I should have used capitals, so here goes again:

THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF EDITING PROJECTS.

I don’t mean there are different workflows, techniques, methods, though of course there a huge variety of these too - what I mean is that different types of editing project have different needs and are suited to different strategies. Not all strategies will work equally well for all types of project - this is the point that you seem to overlook. And it’s a very important one.

Because so much of this can ascend/descend into airy theorising, let’s take a concrete example from a project we worked on for this year’s American Film Market.

We were given sixteen hours of dailies from which to cut a promo and we had just a couple of days to do it. Because we work collaboratively, I volunteered for the enviable job of preselecting from those sixteen hours - and I had only three or four hours in which to do it. Crazy, huh? None of us had seen any of the material before, so had no idea what to expect. However, using the string-out method, I was able to put together a longish selects reel within that ridiculously short space of time. One of my other colleagues spent another couple of hours refining the string-out(s), before handing over to a third colleague who actually cut the promo. Within about 24 hours we had something that the client and film-makers absolutely loved, were bowled over by, couldn’t believe we’d managed to achieve in the time, etc., etc.

This would simply have not been possible without the string-out method, and conversely, the keyword method would have frittered away those precious hours for absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

By working with string-outs we were able to easily pass the project from one editor to another in a way that no amount of the most perfect keywording would have allowed. The previous editor’s intentions and choices were very easy for the next editor to read.

But what would we have done with keywords? What possible use would it have been if I’d tagged the shot of two grumpy men in hats on a beach? 2-SHOT, MEN, BEACH, HATS, GRUMPY - all or any of these would have been pointless, even if I had been the one cutting the final piece. Let’s ignore the time it would take to set those keywords, none of it would be information that would help me with the edit in any way whatsoever. But stringing the shot into a sequence which was already the beginning of an assembly of the scene from which it derived was an entirely self-explanatory system - it required no metadata for my colleagues to understand the logic of the shot and its possible usefulness.

One of the most important considerations for me is that you can sit down and watch a selects reel (string-out) and start to get a very good idea of how the final edit might come together. And that is because you are experiencing your material in real time, sequentially, just as the final result will be experienced. It’s hard to get away from the fact that editing is a sequential process, an unfolding of the material in real time. The string-out process puts that front and centre and works well for that reason.

Of course, there is no doubt that keywording/subclipping/browser organisation is a great boon for many kinds of editing projects - corporates and documentaries are obviously top of the list of types of editing project where this is true, and I speak from experience of both. Sometimes, sifting and sorting clips is a very large part of the editing process, as it clearly is for the work that you do. But to elevate it to a guiding principle that trumps all other ways of working, seems to me to be fundamentally mistaken and not a little short-sighted.

I’ve admitted documentaries to the list of editing project that are well served by the keywording method, but let’s not forget that there is a very distinguished school of thought in documentary film-making where a form of the string-out method has always been central to the creative process. Again, not all documentary editing projects are the same, and lumping them all together is just too crude. And this brings me back to my original point - there are many different types of editing project and it doesn’t make sense to dictate a particular editing strategy (or software solution) as being preferable across the board.

Incidentally, to add further anecdotal colour to my example above, it’s worth mentioning what we used to actually cut the project. As it happens, I began in FCP X .. but gave it up because the import was taking too long. I then moved over to Premiere … but gave it up because the import was taking too long. So I moved over the FCP 7 … where I was up and running in just a few seconds.

And one other point - because we were sharing huge amounts of media and the master material was too big to share conveniently, we “offlined” using the H.264 proxies supplied to us, and then relinked to the master media for the final grade and delivery. FCP7’s outstandingly flexible relinking made this extremely quick and easy, but it would have been simply impossible in FCP X due to its inflexible file handling - far too much differed between the proxies and the master clips for X to have been able to deal with it. Incidentally, the great Ronny Courtens did suggest to me a way around FCP X’s relinking weakness in situations like this, and that was to multiclip the proxy with the master clip and edit from the result and then simply swap the multiclip around at the end of the process. It’s a great tip and it’s worked for me when I’ve had the time to do the preparation. Quite obviously the volume of material and the time constraint in this case meant that this was a total non-starter for us. (I'm so glad that my original intention of cutting in FCP X backfired early on, as I would have roundly cursed the decision later!)

I should finish by saying that FCP X is great and there are several kinds of editing project where I find it a very natural fit and where its particular editing model means I can work much, much faster.

But there are other types of editing project where it just doesn’t fit and its editing model makes for a much slower process - or indeed where its continued lack of key features means that I can’t use it at all, whether it otherwise fits or not.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 12:55:30 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "We were given sixteen hours of dailies from which to cut a promo and we had just a couple of days to do it. Because we work collaboratively, I volunteered for the enviable job of preselecting from those sixteen hours - and I had only three or four hours in which to do it. Crazy, huh?"

At the risk of spending too much time on this - I'll just note that you've selected an example of the type of project where keyboarding AS ITS EXPRESSED IN X - is insanely apt.

The "toolbar tags" Favorite, Reject and Unrate take the PRECISE Scenario you envision and turn it into childspay.

You sit down with a cup of coffee. Load your first clip. IMMEDIATELY put an IN point on the FIRST FRAME.

Then - depending on the "density" of your footage, you can either JKL or use the skimmer to browse ahead. At the moment you see something potentially useful, you just stop. Hit OUT and keystroke the REJECT tag onto everything useless you just sped/scrubbed over. Tap I to set a new IN. Watch the content. When you reach the END of whatever you decide is potentially MORE interesting - hit OUT and make a binary decision. If you LOVE what you've just saw - Hit F to Favorite it. If you're Unsure - Just hit I again to re-set your range select in point. And plunge ahead to REJECT more footage.

I'd expect to get 16 hours properly sorted into REJECT, UNRATED and FAVORITE in maybe 45 minutes depending on the content.

Invoke the Hide Rejects filter and what do I now have?

A visual field of ONLY MY favorites - and my unrated scenes with potential. Everything else is out of sight out of mind unless I specifically re-show my Rejects.

In Xt this happens EXCLUSIVE of using a single custom keyword.

But what I CAN do is pull up my Favorites - OR favorites PLUS unrated maybes (With the dreck of those Rejects now hidden) and apply keywords ONLY to useful footage. Or not.

Is this NOT how you use the database in X?

There are plenty of occasions where REJECT or FAVORITE is ALL I use for a project where the goal is just to cherry pick scenes.

The custom keyword process is IN ADDITION to this and entirely optional.

This is part of why depending on markers and stringouts seems so old fashioned to me now.

The Menu Bar Tags (Reject, Unrated, Favorite) Filter is the Deciding WHAT to work with. The keyword stage is the second. BUT - invoking either lets me instantly drill to what I'm interested in - it SHOWS me the parameters of the actual footage I've marked. It lets me see, hear, scrub, and add or delete additional layers of tags at will - but it FORCES me to do NONE of that if none of that fits my workflow.

Again, it's inconceivable to me that I'd want to sit down with 16 hours or footage and NOT have a range based Favorate/Reject keyword driven database at my finger tips. The inability to REJECT and Hide Reject ALONE would condemn me to have to VIEW all the crap over and over again (which describes far too much of my FCP 7 life for more than a decade!)

IF I've rejected a thing - why would I want to even look at it again under normal circumstances? This is the sense of range-reject in X. And sorry, but you just can't do the same thing with markers. Unless they've VERY much changed them in the last 4 years.

Do you understand this and just elected not to use this function on your project?

I'm honestly baffled that you had a tool to do precisely what you describe seeing to do - and describe a workflow where you don't describe using it.

Yes, we all have preferred workflows. But when the WHOLE POINT is to get rid of LOTS of chaff and work only with the wheat - AND you have a tool that does EXACTLY this super efficiently - and work throough three separate NLES trying to get things done fast - well - it just seems like something in your workflow is VERY much mis-understood.

But of course, I could be wrong. Maybe the ability to preciselly carve huge swaths of unusable footage out of your 16 hours wan't the point. But it sure SEEMS like it would have been.

Happy Holidays to your corner of the world, regardless.

Oh, And I'll review the rules on when berg and burg are more apt to be applied when I'm writing off the top of my head. Getting the spellings of proper nouns wrong is totally bush league, I admit. But these days nobody's paying for a copy editor for me when I sit down to muse on things. And so typos are inevitable.

And so it goes.
; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Joe Marler
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 4:59:34 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I set an IN at the start of the timeline and and OUT at the frame where I wanted to keep something. And pressed delete (Shift X). I set an IN where I wanted that shot to end and then moved to the start of the next shot I wanted to keep and hit OUT and delete. Given the volume of material, I was skimming over a lot of intermediate shots that I was wanting to reject and rejecting them all with a single keystroke"

Maybe I don't understand your procedure but it appears you are appending one day's worth of material to a timeline, then you fast forward through the TL setting IN and OUT points and ripple-deleting rejected regions, one by one. Is that right?

Since you have 16 hours of material, you'd be doing this over and over, once for each bin of dailies. Or if the software could handle it I suppose you could append a 16 hr timeline. I tested a 20 hr H264 1080p timeline on FCP X and it ran but was very sluggish. It is definitely not optimized for that.

By contrast when I imported 200GB (20 hr) of that material into FCP X with "leave files in place" this took 5 min and it was ready to skim in the Event Browser and mark ranges. I'd estimate the frame rate during skimming is at least 20 Hz -- even on camera-native H264 4k material. This was on a 2015 iMac 27 but it seemed equally fast on a 2013 model.

In your procedure, within a shooting day the order of the non-rejected material in the timeline is based on how that was appended. Since you are working sequentially through a group of bins ordered by shooting day, each "culled" timeline region would be in day order -- whether that is the preferred order or not. Then you'd start moving clips around to get them in the preferred presentation order.

I have done that same procedure in Premiere but I don't see how it's any faster than marking range-based favorites with the skimmer in FCP X, then appending those to the TL in one step. In either case you must reorder the material once it's in the TL. The issue is what's the fastest possible method of blitzing through the raw footage and extracting the selects. On any hardware I've tested the skimmer responsiveness is much faster, especially with H264 4k material.

I agree the lack of a "play through" option in the FCP X Event Browser is a mild deficiency. If using only JKL within the Browser, you have to press down arrow to advance to the next clip. A sequential "play through" option is a commonly-requested enhancement. However -- the optimal working Browser working mode is skim with the mouse, click/drag to mark ranges, and Favorite those with the left hand "F" key. If the Browser sort order is by date, they are appended to the TL in that order -- just like your procedure, except in a single step.

Mouse-based Browser range selection may not always give the desired precision, leading to JKL which then requires manually advancing to the next clip. OTOH you don't necessarily need that degree of precision since you aren't making a cut but marking a range. It can always be adjusted in the timeline.

I don't see how working sequentially through a group of bins, adding them to the timeline and deleting rejected regions produces more "linear", usable results any quicker than marking favorites in the FCP X Browser and appending those to the TL in one step. For a "fast first assembly" task over a lot of material, the FCP X Event Browser seems faster.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 5:50:54 pm

[Joe Marler] "I tested a 20 hr H264 1080p timeline on FCP X and it ran but was very sluggish. It is definitely not optimized for that."

Yes, FCP X is dog slow when it comes to handling lots of material like this.

Which is why I moved over to FCP 7 where all was as smooth as butter.

[Joe Marler] "By contrast when I imported 200GB (20 hr) of that material into FCP X with "leave files in place" this took 5 min"

Yes, those slow import times are why i moved this project over to FCP 7 where the import was virtually instant.

Thanks for your considered answer to the question, but I'm not sure you have done anything to convince me that there is a quicker or more effective way of doing this than the string-out method. I think I have addressed the differences both qualitatively and quantitatively in my post to Bill here:

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/85854

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Joe Marler
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 6:59:47 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] " FCP X is dog slow when it comes to handling lots of material like this."

In this case I had 200GB of mixed 1080p material, some of which was AVCHD. FCPX cannot import AVCHD with "leave files in place" so will copy those to the Library. OTOH I have imported about 130GB of H264 4k material from an AG-DVX200 and A7RII in about 1 second.

For some media types (e.g, GoPro, AVCHD and MP4 files from some camcorders) FCPX can go into a "Processing files for import" phase" but this is typically only a minute or so, even for lots of material. Likewise those codecs may produce a "generating audio waveforms" phase which takes a while, but is a background task that doesn't prevent editing.

Except for these cases, FCPX seems to import extremely quickly. It generally doesn't strike me as slow to import when using "leave files in place" on a locally-attached RAID array.

Premiere CC likewise does not instantly complete all import tasks for those media types -- its "conforming" phase can take a little while. Very roughly I'd say it's overall about equal to FCPX, although there is some variation from case to case.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 7:05:53 pm

[Joe Marler] "Premiere CC likewise does not instantly complete all import tasks for those media types -- its "conforming" phase can take a little while. Very roughly I'd say it's overall about equal to FCPX, although there is some variation from case to case."

I find this as well, although importing 4K XAVC material into FCPX can be VERY slow. It's worth it however as 4K XAVC in FCPX is much more responsive than in PPro


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 7:35:36 pm

[Steve Connor] "I find this as well, although importing 4K XAVC material into FCPX can be VERY slow. It's worth it however as 4K XAVC in FCPX is much more responsive than in PPro"

How is everyone importing?

Why not just drag and drop MXF files? I skip the import window as it rewraps.


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Joe Marler
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 10:30:10 pm

[Steve Connor] "importing 4K XAVC material into FCPX can be VERY slow. It's worth it however as 4K XAVC in FCPX is much more responsive than in PPro"

When I import UHD 4K XAVC-S from my Sony A7RII, it is definitely not slow. The difference may be importing from the camera card (which does not allow "leave files in place") vs from a local hard drive copy of those files (which does allow it).

With the camera files on my Pegasus R4 RAID, I just did a test import of 172GB of material. I could drag and drop sequential batches of files to the event, one after the other, as rapidly as I could move the mouse. The delay from dropping each batch on the event until the thumbnails appeared in the Event Browser ready to edit was 1-2 seconds. For a couple of minutes it continues a background task for "generating audio waveforms", but this doesn't interfere with editing.

I did the same test on the same machine (a top-spec 2015 iMac 27) using Premiere CC, and it also was pretty fast on the import but each batch caused a several-second "importing..." dialog, during which the UI was locked and you couldn't do anything else. This has little practical impact -- it's just a few seconds, but from import action to first available edit, FCPX is a bit faster -- at least on this material, machine and operating system.

However as you observed, after import on 4K XAVC material, FCPX is much faster and more responsive. Even if you exclude the skimmer performance in the Event Browser as a special case, it's far more responsive to JKL commands in the timeline. Also the viewer update rate during FF or REV is probably 10x faster. Activity Monitor and iStat Menus shows the CPU levels are much higher in Premiere than FCPX when doing similar operations. So the code path is just not as efficient in this case.

How much difference does this make in producing the final product, IOW "what is editing speed?". The human editor's proficiency with the chosen tool probably makes a lot more difference. Specific features of the suite can make a big difference if needed for the workflow. E.g, I've seen editors spend 30 min playing around with the FCPX audio EQ and filters when Premiere's Audition spectral editor could have fixed it much faster.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 8:47:54 pm

[Joe Marler] "Except for these cases, FCPX seems to import extremely quickly. It generally doesn't strike me as slow to import when using "leave files in place" on a locally-attached RAID array."

But compared to doing the exact same thing in FCP 7, it was slow in this particular case. 7 was virtually instant - X has to think about waveforms and other nonsense, that takes up time I'd rather be using editing. Premiere Pro is not necessarily any better.

Notably in this case, we ended up cutting the H.264 material directly (no transcoding) in FCP 7 - which theoretically should have been a disaster. But it wasn't. But you have to know what you're doing.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 6:23:00 pm

I was going to do this point by point, but after reading your last few posts, I’m not sure that’s the right approach. Honestly, gently, and based exclusively on what I’m reading of your thinking, (and I’m trying to say this very respectfully and carefully) I’m not sure you really have a very good grasp of how X ACTUALLY works.

It appears as if, like many, you came to it knowing how other NLEs work - and simply decided to dive in without any formal study or understanding of that Randy U had re-imagined. And it frustrates you. That is perfectly understandable.

Please understand that I’m not questioning your editing ability in any way. Lets take that off the table and start with the mutual agreement that you are a far better editor than I am. I’m fine with that. What I want to do is focus exclusively on your actual familiarity with how X works at a very fundamental level.

To help here are some simple notes that I honestly hope helps you to understand the program better..

First, that you were generally unfamiliar with the Favorite/Reject/Unrated system is a WOW to me. It's the central construct of the database, and where the vast majority of X editing starts if you're to to use the software as it is designed.

From my reading of your prior post, you seem to think it’s some sort of “separate system” in X. It’s NOT. It’s all the exact same keywording system. User defines a range. applies a TAG to that range.. The ONLY distinction between a Menu Bar Tag (Favorite/Rejet/Unrate) and a user generated Custom tag is that there’s a simple filter stage built into the Menu Bar tags that lets the users filter the EVENT DISPLAY by that class of tags. You can Hide and Show Rejects and Favorites in the Event. Period. Other than that, they are JUST tags. They work the same as all other tags.

Why is this central to X workflow? To help you understand it better, here is my MacBreak Studio about it from a few years back. (I'm loathe to reference this since I'm proudly personally down some 50lbs since I recorded it, but it might be instructive so I'll shelve my ego in the hopes it helps you learn what the Toolbar Tags can make you tremendously faster during X operations. ESPECIALLY when you have LOTS of material to work with as in your 16 hours situation. If you had underrstood nothing but THIS when you tried to get your “quick edit” done - instead of hopping around through 3 programs and landing on the one that’s been dead 5 years and requires re-rendering for virtually any timeline operation - you would have had a much easier time.

My clip:





ALTERNATIVELY if you don't want to watch ME explain it, Here's Tom Carter addressing the same topic just last week in his FIRST tip: http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/tutorials/1759-four-final-cut-pro-x-tutoria...

Not only is Tom FAR better looking and more charming, but he covers nearly the same material, and it might be less distractive for you to hear it from him.

Your idea that somehow it’s not “fluid” or it’s somehow hobbled because you can’t play through clips is again, evidence that you really don’t understand what should be happening in actual X editing. I could pull up half a dozen examples, but two will suffice.

You call out the inability to “play through” clips in the Event. Which tells me you have a VERY shaky understanding of what these are and what they are not. They ARE database entries. DIscrete database entries - interconnected to a robust set of metadata. They are NOT timelines, (actually storylines in X parlance - BECUSE they are NOT that at tall.) And they are NOT storylines. They can be OPENED in timelines. And they can be assembled and established as traditional String-outs in Storylines - but they are NOT these things when they are sitting in the event browser! The boundary between clips in the database is just that - a boundary. It’s NOT a thru edit. Trying to treat it like it is - in my opinion - is to once again try to Make X work like your OLD NLE - to SEE that as LIKE a clip in a Capture Scratch - and it IS NOT.

When you are TAGGING clips, it’s NOT an issue. Because a tap on down arrow takes you instantly to the NEXT database entry - e.g. next clip - so if you’re trying to watch stuff that was improperly recorded (I use that phrase because I seldom see clips that have absolutely no pre or post roll involved unless some weird old age camera couldn’t span the 4Gig limit and had to plop down discontinuous clip snippits.) I haven’t had to confront that situation much since 2013 or so. - if you do, again, just down arrow as you go! A hundred down arrow taps costs me what? Perhaps a cumulative second? I can handle that.

Look, I appreciate your trying to help me “learn X” with a variety of your other comments, but I’m already Apple Certified in FCP X Pro Post and while that's meaningless in and of itself, it merely demonstrates that I've made myself FAMILIAR with how the program ACTUALLY works - rather than how I might THINK it works. (I still get things wrong, but at least I've put in the time to STUDY it in depth. Have you? Let's presume we both opened it on the day it was released to the public. Clearly the difference here is that , I didn’t have any reason to divide my time trying to keep using Legacy or dabble in Premiere Pro or Avid and was able, therefore, to NOT constantly view X exlusively in terms of how I used to think about editing. I have now used X exclusively for going on 5 years. So I feel like I’m pretty solid with it. In fact, let me help you out again.

In your “fewer clicks” attempt to argue how slow I must be with X, you neglected some subtleties. Yes, Down arrow sets the playhead at the CLIP beginning without a I keystroke ~IF~ YOU DON”T HAVE OTHER I/O Ranges specified in advance inside your clips. If you do - you still have to set the In Point at the frame one playhead position. When stepping someone through a process I feel they don’t actually understand, I tend to simplify so they don’t get lost. Sorry if I did that here. It wasn’t personal.

Finally, before this becomes too long a novel, let me post another screenshot for you to consider.




This comes from a 24-hour crash edit I did almost 2 years ago in X. It’s pretty analagous to the project you describe. Crews on-site shooting for 3 days before my arrival. They had 16 hours “in the can” by the end of DAY ONE. I had 24 hours on-site to deliver a program for an audience of about 1000 at 6am. I did it AND got 5.5 hours sleep. So I FULLY understand speed on deadline.

And I'm going to contend that if you actually were as fully conversant with X as you appear to believe you are - then you would have had no more trouble with your 16 hour turnaround then I did with a gig with about 3 times that much raw footage and a similar deadline.

I'm VERY likely not as good an editor as you are, Simon. But I clearly understand THIS TOOL a lot better than you do - evidenced by just what you're written here. And sorry, but the reason you're not as fast as you'd like in X on a project like this is that you do NOT adequately understand how to employ what X does so wall to make it efficient.

In X, all the work you do is iterative and cumulative. I can spot to the storyline from full cards first, and when I have a free moment before the next reels arrive, I can smash out big chunks of REJECTS from arriving new footage - so I don’t waste my time later on. Or not. No matter where, how or when I’m working - I’m building a decision database that makes my future work MORE efficient. Even 3 seconds spent TAGGING a clip that momentarily streams by my notice, means I OWN that clip for the rest of my edit. When I need it, I don’t have to waste even ONE second making sure I’m in the right stringout or in the proper folder - I just tap a couple of characters or click on a keyword and BOOM it’s AT my playhead ready for use. If you don’t see the speed utility of that - then you will NEVER understand the appeal of X. And, honestly I’m kinda convinced now that you won’t.

It appears that you have contracted a full blown case of the “dismissal infection” when it comes to X. You aren’t seeing - nor, really curious about what you don’t know, as evidenced by how you have described it after all these months of purported use.

So I’m sure you’ll be disappointed with it every time you launch it. It’s going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy for you, Simon. The anger you’re letting slip out here is palpable. So please, Just let it go. Coming back to instruct people who DO use it and enjoy it’s speed and flexibility - while getting so many of the program use fundamentals flat out WRONG is not very productive.

If X annoys you further, please come and ask questions here. There are plenty of people besides me that understand how it actually works. No need to stumble around angry with the fact that it doesn't work as you WISH it would. Because it never is.

Simple as that.

Take care - and really, happy holidays. Hope your end of year season is bright and full of joy.

Peace.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 7:00:02 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Not really worth responding to this, Bill, sorry. Have a great weekend."

Nicely done, bet you end up responding to it though :)


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 2:09:44 am

Time to take this particular argument offline?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 12:59:13 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Dec 7, 2015 at 2:49:47 pm

I think I won't take Steve up on his suggestion to take this outside and settle it with duelling pistols, not least since I suspect you are a much better shot than I would be.

Instead I will apologise for being arrogant, overbearing and considerably more forthright (always a serviceable euphemism for rude) than was perhaps appropriate.

There is one more thing I did want to add to the discussion though. You kindly mention my recently started Fusion tutorials, but in addition to these I have also for the last few years been running an extended series of free tutorials for Apple Motion, some of which Tim has been kind enough to host right here on the COW.

My small band of loyal subscribers has been generous enough to call them the best tutorials for Motion available anywhere, and although they are probably being much too generous, I think what they are responding to is the fact that although I provide the means for really getting to know the toolset in depth, I stress that that's just the starting point on the journey. By all means learn what Apple meant for you to do with the application, and then ... you can begin to start actually using it, as against merely operating it.

It's in thinking beyond the limitations of the toolset, and indeed in many cases fighting against those limitations and devising improved methods of working, that you will start to get the really great results. So my advice, in this, one of my limited spheres of competence, is to learn everything you can - and then question everything about what you've learnt, every step of the way, on every single job. There is always a better way, a different way, a way that's more appropriate to what you are trying to achieve. Apple don't know what you are trying to do, only you know that. Be bold, be creative, think outside the limitations of the application. Don't be a slave to it.

All the best,

S.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 7:41:49 pm

Simon.

There is not a single statement in your post that I do not heartily appreciate and commend.

We all get "tetchy" about issues. (I am certainly am as guilty of that as anyone here!)

I greatly appreciate the tone and tenor of your post. And pledge to try to meet it's spirit with less push and more pull in these discussions.

I will carefully examine your Motion tutorials with relish. I know far less about that software than I should and find myself needing it more and more. That you have taken the time to share your expertise is excellent.

The very BEST part of constructive debate is the part when the parties on both sides, having argued vigorously, put down the talking points and shake hands.

It would please me greatly if we have reached that stage in this.

Honestly, happy holidays - however you observe them.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 6:58:36 pm

Wow, that's all I can say!


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 7:32:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "The ONLY distinction between a Menu Bar Tag (Favorite/Rejet/Unrate) and a user generated Custom tag is that there’s a simple filter stage built into the Menu Bar tags that lets the users filter the EVENT DISPLAY by that class of tags. You can Hide and Show Rejects and Favorites in the Event. Period. Other than that, they are JUST tags. They work the same as all other tags. "

I watched your MacBreak Episode, I think using JKL slows you down a little, I use the skimmer for range marking and I think it's faster.


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Tony West
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 5, 2015 at 3:16:34 am

[Steve Connor] "I watched your MacBreak Episode, I think using JKL slows you down a little, I use the skimmer for range marking and I think it's faster."

+1 the skimmer is one of the main things that makes cutting in X fast. I hardly ever use JKL anymore.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 7:03:05 pm

Regarding the first video:

I'm not really sure how marking ranges to drop them on a timeline later is any faster than marking an in/out and dropping it on the timeline right away in any other NLE. Different workflow(s). Same result.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:43:17 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I do know FCP X pretty well actually. I use it all the time and I'm fairly certain that I was up to speed on FCP X before you had even opened it up for the first time, if I recall correctly.
"



http://ogallchoir.prosite.com/
producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ? Counting Keystrokes
on Dec 4, 2015 at 12:34:11 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:43:21 am

[Bill Davis] "You sit down with a cup of coffee. Load your first clip. IMMEDIATELY put an IN point on the FIRST FRAME.

Then - depending on the "density" of your footage, you can either JKL or use the skimmer to browse ahead. At the moment you see something potentially useful, you just stop. Hit OUT and keystroke the REJECT tag onto everything useless you just sped/scrubbed over. Tap I to set a new IN. Watch the content. When you reach the END of whatever you decide is potentially MORE interesting - hit OUT and make a binary decision. If you LOVE what you've just saw - Hit F to Favorite it. If you're Unsure - Just hit I again to re-set your range select in point. And plunge ahead to REJECT more footage. "


Because I've got a bit of time on my hands, I thought it would be useful to count keystrokes - and fallacies. Let's start with:

IMMEDIATELY put an IN point on the FIRST FRAME.

You don't seem to know how FCP X works here. You absolutely don't need to set an IN on the first frame - you can simply set an OUT when you arrive at the end of the section you want to reject. Try to get out of this habit of yours and you will certainly save a lot of time.

But let's keep that in there for now so we can count the stages in your method.

(1) Load Clip; (2) Set IN; (3) Skim or JKL; (4) Set OUT; (5) Hit Reject; (6) Skim or JKL (you missed this); (7) Set an IN; (8) Watch the content; (9) Set OUT; (10) Hit F or don't hit F; Hit IN ... rinse and repeat.

Not forgetting, which you did, the need to (11) load up each new clip before carrying out this process.

And also not forgetting (12) that your selected clips will at some point need to be added to a timeline. Not least if you want to review them in a continuous fashion, as you absolutely should.

Compare my method - using FCPX, which I also like to do. (Did I mention that I use FCP X all the time and find it very useful for some projects, less so for others?)

(1) Load all clips into the timeline; (2) Skim or JKL; (3) Set an OUT where you want your first selection to start; (4) Delete; (5) Skim or JKL; (6) set an IN where you want your selection to end ...

Start again at (2)

I'm not convinced that your method is quicker ... in fact, I my limited maths skills tell me that your method is TWICE AS SLOW as mine. And in FCP X itself at that.

That's TWICE AS SLOW.

But really, as I've tried to make clear, it's not about keystrokes ultimately, it's about the value of the result you are left with at the end of each process. I really don't think there is as much value in your result - for the purposes of the project we have been talking about - as there is in mine.

This isn't about whether or not I like FCP X - it's about your oft-promoted concept of editing in the Browser, which I believe has undesirable limitations in certain circumstances, including this one.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 3, 2015 at 12:16:35 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Dec 3, 2015 at 1:09:48 pm

[Bill Davis] "It would like somebody saying Schoenburg was WRONG because he didn't use a "proper" scale. "

It's interesting that you invoke Schoenberg (I guess from your spelling of his name that perhaps you're not as much of an avid devotee of his music as I am).

At a time when totalitarianism was starting to sweep across the world and stamp on the face of difference and freedom, good old Arnold was devising his twelve tone system, also known as serialism, to rigidly codify atonalism and banish conventional tonality from the world forever. (Exaggeration for rhetorical effect BTW).

A hundred years later, despite the undoubted serial masterpieces produced by the Second Viennese School and a very small handful of notable epigones, serialism can be safely said to have died and has had no lasting influence on the history of Western music other than to stifle a lot of the creativity of the 20th century with its doctrinaire certainties.

The moral I think is to always beware totalitarian systems.

I wonder what analogy we could draw from this?

Of course, Schoenberg was a titanic genius - the real harm, such as it was, came from his terrifyingly ardent followers ...)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 6:37:39 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 6, 2015 at 6:45:01 pm

Agree with you 100%, Simon. Even as a single editor working on short-form projects for non-profits, I find I am at my fastest and most creative when I can see the road map laid out in front of me. That means being able to lay things out on a timeline and drag them around - like puzzle pieces - to see how things will flow and fit together. One of my recent pieces for a non-profit that ended up looking like this:



Started like this:



I can't imagine having been able to arrive at this level of complexity (as quickly as I did) by depending upon keywords to get me there. But maybe that's just me. ;)

The finished video is here if anyone is interested:



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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 8:16:21 pm

Phil,

Honestly and gently I suspect it IS your misimpression about X.

Two weeks ago I went from this....




to this....



In the same fashion. (sorry, I had to turn off the shot icons before uploading as I don't have formal permission to publish the content).

I'm interested in what you think you can "see" on your timeline that I somehow can't see just as easily on my storyline?

What keywords allow me to do is pre-trim, tag, sort and retrieve my clips with greater speed and efficiency than I could before I learned X. It's a preparation construct. When I talk about pre-editing - it's merely that if I KNOW how a trim needs to be done prior to my edit - I do that in the Event rather than on the Timeline - pretty much exactly as a traditional editor can subclip. It's only that my "subclips" are managed by an active database, rather than in folders and string-out timelines - which, while perfectly useful and an industry standard - have only part of the utility of storing metadata in an actual database. (something we could debate at length, I'm sure.)

Once you're building a storyline, it gives you almost exactly the same ability to "see" your edit as any other NLE.

An X editor then has what many of us see as an additional bonus capability which is how it lets us create vertical magnetic relationships between assets and shuffle those "asset stacks" as units - not with cut and paste risking over-write, but with simple drag and drop - with clip collision avoidance insuring that we can't inadvertently kill the work we've already done.

But I can't see how the actual visual representations in your examples are much different than mine aside from the fact that in traditional editing, the video and audio MUST adhere to an arbitrary rule that they have to be separated, all the video must go above the line and all the audio must go below it irrespective of any relationship they have to each other.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 8:43:06 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 6, 2015 at 9:10:49 pm

An X editor then has what many of us see as an additional bonus capability which is how it lets us create vertical magnetic relationships between assets and shuffle those "asset stacks" as units - not with cut and paste risking over-write, but with simple drag and drop - with clip collision avoidance insuring that we can't inadvertently kill the work we've already done.


I've never had an issue inadvertently killing work I've already done in Avid, especially since you can't arbitrarily drag things around - snapped or otherwise - until you enter one of two "segment modes", which, at that point, means there's nothing "inadvertent" about what you're doing.

Once you're building a storyline, it gives you almost exactly the same ability to "see" your edit as any other NLE.


Until that point, though, an X user is "tagging", "keywording" or whatever it is X users do to simply get to the point of making a timeline. That was the point of your video, yes? Sorry. I like to get my material to the timeline as fast as I can and start "playing" with it to see how it's all going to fit and flow together. I get no idea of "flow" by keywording something.

Obviously, your mileage varies.

in traditional editing, the video and audio MUST adhere to an arbitrary rule that they have to be separated, all the video must go above the line and all the audio must go below it irrespective of any relationship they have to each other.


You see that as a limitation. I don't. But had I learned FCPX 21 years ago, and had used it almost exclusively for those same 21 years, I might feel the same way about it you do. Substitute Avid for FCPX in the preceding sentence, and you will understand my POV.


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 10:13:37 pm

[Phil Lowe] "Until that point, though, an X user is "tagging", "keywording" or whatever it is X users do to simply get to the point of making a timeline. That was the point of your video, yes? Sorry. I like to get my material to the timeline as fast as I can and start "playing" with it to see how it's all going to fit and flow together. I get no idea of "flow" by keywording something. "

Just to be clear, Keywords and assigning favorites are entirely optional steps. You can proceed in FCPX pretty much in the same manner as any other NLE. That is, cutting right from your clips to the timeline and then working from there.

Forgive me if this next part is something you already know. Generally when I cut in X, I typically create keyword collections in more or less the same manner as I would create bins in PPro or MC. For example, bring in all my footage into an Event called Footage and then create Keyword Collections for Interview, B-Roll, etc.

In other NLEs I would drag the clips into their various bins. In X, I can drag a clip to a Keyword Collection or I can assign a hot key with the name of the Keyword Collection. Then as I go through the footage I can use the hotkey to automatically send that clip to the designated Keyword Collection. The latter is what is getting called "tagging" in this thread.

The big difference in X versus other NLEs, is that clips and/or section of clips can appear in multiple Keyword Collections, so the process is a bit like creating a subclip in another NLE and the dragging the subclips to a bin. I hope that helps.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 11:00:41 pm

Just to be clear, Keywords and assigning favorites are entirely optional steps. You can proceed in FCPX pretty much in the same manner as any other NLE. That is, cutting right from your clips to the timeline and then working from there.


Well then I must be really confused about FCPX then, Oliver (and thank you for your reply) because everything I've read on these fora (mostly from Bill) indicates that you're not really fast with it unless you use FCPX as it was meant to be used, that is by keywording every clip and range.

On the other hand, for the example I cited above, I created several bins:

Royalty-Free Music
B-Roll (further identified by date and subject)
SOTs (further identified by date and subject)
Stills & Graphics (including titles)
FX (keys, color correction, etc.)
Sequences (and finally)
Finsihed Program

My organizational workflow was to put all of the daily B-Roll into its own bin, then sequence it, and place that sequence into the "Sequences" bin, identified by shooting date and subject. Likewise, Music and SOTs were placed onto their own sequences and placed in the sequence bin. This allowed me to close the bins containing the raw material I didn't need, leaving only the FX, Sequences, and Graphics bins open, as I would be using and adding to these as work on the finished program proceeded.

The piece I cut for this particular church was a compilation of individual "stories" shot over about a 5-week period. The keyed SOTs in the piece were all shot the same day, and were the very first element I had to work with (that was the rough cut seen in my second image). As the events the pastor described came up over the course of those 5 weeks, I edited each story, fully completed, on its own timeline, after which I loaded that sequence as a "clip" and dropped it onto the "Finished Program" timeline.

Simple descriptive name and date attributes on the raw sequences were enough to let me access all of the b-roll for a given event in a single bin quickly and easily, and I was able to scrub very quickly through each of these sequences to find the shot I wanted.

So yes, there is some organizational work that must be done - when dealing with massive amounts of data - in order to make the final edit go smoothly. That's absolutely true of any NLE. What I find off-putting is this insistence - by some - that it must be done for every type of edit.

I also work in news and, for daily news packages and vo-sots, such organization is completely unnecessary and a waste of time, regardless of the software. In this regard, I think Simon's point (if I read it correctly) is spot-on: how you organize an edit depends on the type of edit you're doing.

For news in Detroit (using an Avid Interplay system), all of our stories were sequenced automatically upon ingest, and it was, by far, the fastest way we worked. I've been told "keywording" is the fastest way to work in FCPX but this was a completely unnecessary step in our Avid news workflow!

I'll only add, in the church example I posted above, dropping all the pastor's interview bites on that rough cut timeline, then trimming them there, gave me a sense for what I needed to shoot as events came up. I'll also add that when I was approached for this project, the original idea was presented to me as 5 bullet points on a piece of paper. Everything else was what I brought to the piece.


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 11:18:27 pm

[Phil Lowe] "On the other hand, for the example I cited above, I created several bins:
Royalty-Free Music.....
My organizational workflow was to put all of the daily B-Roll into its own bin, then sequence it, and place that sequence into the "Sequences" bin, identified by shooting date and subject."


If you want, you can work in FCPX in a very similar manner. Obviously the terminology is a bit different and the procedures not completely identical, but in general you can work this way with X.

[Phil Lowe] " This allowed me to close the bins containing the raw material I didn't need, leaving only the FX, Sequences, and Graphics bins open, as I would be using and adding to these as work on the finished program proceeded. "

Also possible in X.

[Phil Lowe] " I've been told "keywording" is the fastest way to work in FCPX but this was a completely unnecessary step in our Avid news workflow!"

While Interplay is its own animal, if you organized clips at the Finder level in various folders based on the type of clip, then when you import the media into FCPX, you have the option to use those folder names. When you do that, the folders become keyword collections, so any organizing that you've done externally is used.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 11:32:47 pm

[Phil Lowe] "Well then I must be really confused about FCPX then,"

Maybe this will help:

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2015/08/07/final-cut-pro-x-organizing-ti...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 11:53:06 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 7, 2015 at 12:00:48 am

Thanks, Oliver. Nice information, but any long form work I'll be doing that's not news-related I'll be doing in Media Composer. Most of the work I'll be doing in news will revolve around cutting simple vo-sots and straight-cut reporter packages, where heavy organization isn't really needed. In fact, for cutting a vo, I would simply like to be able to drop every clip on the timeline and trim to :40 there. Someone mentioned a "tops & tails" feature in X. Any idea what that is and how it works?

Nevermind. I found it.

http://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/top-and-tail-editing-now-available-in-final...

I'll get this app working like my Media Composer in no time! ;)


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 12:49:25 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Dec 7, 2015 at 1:53:44 am

[Phil Lowe] "I'll get this app working like my Media Composer in no time! ;)"

And there lies the conundrum.

Yes, you likely can constrain X to the point where it acts like something that is NOT X.

Which begs the question - why bother? If you're truly going to just leave the synth on the "piano" preset all the time - just buy a piano - it's MUCH less grief.

And no less capable of making great music, by the way.

As a penalty for using a music analogy, I nearby appease the forum spirits with a bit of sublime "almost on topic" by virtue of being a film score - offering.

Hang em high - Booker T and the MGs (with notable assistance from Steve Cropper and Duck Dunn) - - neither piano nor synth - but Hammond B3 FTW.







Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 1:56:44 am

why bother?


Because - as I have explained in other threads - my current job as a per diem news photographer requires it. However, I also own and use Media Composer for paid and pro bono freelance work. I have been using, building, and training people on Avid systems for almost 21 years. There is no compelling reason for me to use FCPX except that my employer will (eventually) expect me to edit with it. Beyond doing cuts-only editing, I will have no use for it. Therefore, since I already own a Steinway Grand in Media Composer, I have no problem using FCPX like a cheap knock-off of the real thing, if that's what it takes for me to use both.

I have zero interest, at this stage of the game, in trying to learn a whole new editing paradigm just to do cuts-only editing. That's why.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 2:37:37 am

[Phil Lowe] "Beyond doing cuts-only editing, I will have no use for it."

Well, I suppose that phrase clearly sums up why it appears the two of us (and others) will always have differing approaches to this sort of technological change.

You're appear to be content to NOT know what something is capable of AND simultaneously decide in advance that that it will NEVER benefit you. Basically, a judgement that the way you solve your professional challenges currently can not possibly improve.

Which is fine.

I prefer to explore whats new out there - before I decide that the way I've been doing things for the past twenty years is still best way to do them.

The cameras, the lights, my audio gear, the file formats, the delivery targets and even the techniques I used in program design - all "state of the art" 20 - or even 5 years ago -are NOT any longer. So I enjoy the benefits of the latest research to make it easier to do what I do. For me, it was seriously past time to retire the "studio in a building" - the big heavy Tungsten light kits - my big old Lectrosonic wireless rigs - and yes, my old NLE.

All of them were excellent tools in their era and I could STILL use any of them to meet a deadline and earn the paycheck today. But they are also kinda universally inefficient - in one way or the other - when it comes to the type of work I need to do today.

Same with my NLE. That's all. No big deal.

I'm happier when I edit now than I was before. Much happier. It's easier and more fun. If it's not for someone else for whatever reason, that's fine too. It's not my job to tell anyone else how to work. And it's not their job to tell me that the way I do the job is "wrong" either.

But what fun would this forum be if we didn't STILL have these skirmishes.

Viva la Guerre, I suppose. At least it's bloodless and isn't boring.; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 3:15:29 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:06:20 am

You're appear to be content to NOT know what something is capable of AND simultaneously decide in advance that that it will NEVER benefit you.


I can emphatically state that learning a new editing paradigm when I am already well-versed in one that meets deadlines and makes money will never benefit me. Period.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that your paradigm is wrong for you, but it most certainly would be for me.

Basically, a judgement that the way you solve your professional challenges currently can not possibly improve.


Over the years of my professional life I have had to learn - by teaching myself mostly - many programs to solve my professional challenges, from Premiere Pro, Photoshop, After Effects, and Lightroom, to Maya and Lightwave 3D. I don't have a problem learning new programs when I can clearly see the benefit of doing so. FCPX offers me nothing I can't already do or don't already have in Avid except new nomenclature and a trackless timeline. In my view, these are things designed to get iMovie users to upgrade more than they are to get working pros to toss everything they know about their current software and start a new learning curve in a completely new editing paradigm.

If you've embraced it, good for you! I'm sure you're turning out absolutely killer work with it! But so am I while NOT using this "new" technology. I don't need to learn a whole new way of doing things for cuts-only edits. That's like getting a graduate level degree to play Mozart (to extend your music metaphor) when all I need is enough to play Chopsticks! And Chopsticks is all I will need to do for cutting basic news.

In the meantime, I'll continue to play Chopin, Mozart, and even some Beethoven in Media Composer, which is where I feel most comfortable.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 7:24:15 am

[Phil Lowe] " I will have no use for it. Therefore, since I already own a Steinway Grand in Media Composer, I have no problem using FCPX like a cheap knock-off of the real thing, if that's what it takes for me to use both. "

I think you'll find FCPX is a modern Synthesiser, not a knock of of your old Steinway


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 8:31:59 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 7, 2015 at 8:40:29 am

[Steve Connor] "[Phil Lowe] " I will have no use for it. Therefore, since I already own a Steinway Grand in Media Composer, I have no problem using FCPX like a cheap knock-off of the real thing, if that's what it takes for me to use both. "

I think you'll find FCPX is a modern Synthesiser, not a knock of of your old Steinway"


Having tried to work with it for more than a month now, and having watched a number of tutorials on how to use it, I can honestly say I don't like it. But then, I don't care much for modern synthesizers, either.

I hate the trackless, magnetic timeline. I hate the audio controls (I much prefer Avid's audio mixer), and I can't stand skimming in the browser. But then, I don't like the latter feature in Avid, either. I don't like thumbnail view and rarely use it, even in FCP7. In short, there's virtually nothing about the interface or controls I like. Having remapped the keyboard to match my Media Composer settings has made basic editing tolerable, but only so. For basic editing, that's all I need. Going any further with FCPX, quite frankly, doesn't interest me in the least.

I will do FCPX for my employer because it's required. I will do Avid for my own work because I am fast with it and I enjoy it.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 8:48:13 am

[Phil Lowe] "I hate the trackless, magnetic timeline. I hate the audio controls (I much prefer Avid's audio mixer), and I can't stand skimming in the browser. But then, I don't like the latter feature in Avid, either. I don't like thumbnail view and rarely use it, even in FCP7. In short, there's virtually nothing about the interface or controls I like. Having remapped the keyboard to match my Media Composer settings has made basic editing tolerable, but only so. For basic editing, that's all I need. Going any further with FCPX, quite frankly, doesn't interest me in the least."

You really should have lead with that


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 9:17:53 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 7, 2015 at 10:59:14 am

Better late than never. ;)

One other thing I found that I really dislike about it: the default keyboard layout assigns keys (inconsistently) mnemonically: P for position, S for skimming, E for append, etc. Inconsistently, I say, because select is A, Q is connect, and D is overwrite???

To make things easier, I mapped the position tool (P) to Option-A, in keeping with all my other Avid shortcuts that sit under my left hand.

I'll only add that I hate the fidgeting you have to do with simple dissolves just to change their starting placement. The quick effect key (backslash) in Avid is both easier to use and more precise out of the gate, and it works for audio without having to break sync!. Dragging handles on a simple effect simply should not take as long as it does, and this is something I despise in Premiere Pro, too.


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Joe Marler
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 11:28:56 am

[Phil Lowe] "...I hate the trackless, magnetic timeline. I hate the audio controls...I can't stand skimming in the browser...I don't like thumbnail view and rarely use it...In short, there's virtually nothing about the interface or controls I like...Going any further with FCPX, quite frankly, doesn't interest me in the least."

You are not the first to feel this way. Mike Matzdorff, assistant director of the Will Smith movie "Focus", had a very difficult transition from Avid to FCP X. Early on he said "FCPX is utterly unusable".

His first attempt to use FCPX was editing a little video interview for his wife. He figured it would be a piece of cake for him -- a professional Hollywood film editor. He struggled for a long time, gave up and had to finish the video in FCP 7. He was so angry he asked for a refund from Apple.

But he didn't give up, ultimately edited that feature film using FCPX and wrote a popular book about it:
http://amzn.com/B00UO2NA8I

In this interview, Matzdorff said once he stopped trying to make FCPX work like Avid he made good progress. His described it as "you...have to bend your mind a little bit, and when you do it's fast and it's cool and it works".






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Scott Witthaus
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 11:53:08 am

[Joe Marler] "In this interview, Matzdorff said once he stopped trying to make FCPX work like Avid he made good progress. His described it as "you...have to bend your mind a little bit, and when you do it's fast and it's cool and it works"."

Bingo. I am not sure why anyone would try to bend FCPX to work like Avid or Premiere. If that's your goal, stick with Avid and avoid the frustration. I went through some of the same frustration in the early Softimage|DS days, but once I stopped trying to make it work like Media Composer and work as it was designed, it became very fast and powerful. Granted DS, like Avid, FCP7 and Pr are all traditional track based editors, so there are many things that are similar. But to really find out what any software can do, work with it as it was designed. Then you can make an informed decision. But to complain "it doesn't work like my Avid" invites the answer, "yeah, its not supposed to"....

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 12:13:50 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "I am not sure why anyone would try to bend FCPX to work like Avid or Premiere."

Which is why I never map a keyboard to emulate another applications actions. When I started in Ppro I did not use their FCP7 keyboard layout -- I prefer full immersion into whatever I'm working with. On the other hand this might be why I find it so difficult to work on several different NLEs at the same time - maybe the secret to that skill is having a strong base in one system and forcing other systems to adapt to that? Would love to hear from the non-manogomous editors out there how they manage to remember what keystrokes to use as they move from ap to ap.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 1:51:20 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Would love to hear from the non-manogomous editors out there how they manage to remember what keystrokes to use as they move from ap to ap."

I don't remap PPro to match FCPX and I jump between the two a lot, like you I prefer the full immersion too.
It isn't a problem - eventually!


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Scott Witthaus
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:34:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Would love to hear from the non-manogomous editors out there how they manage to remember what keystrokes to use as they move from ap to ap."

It is interesting. I was on jobs using Premiere and FCPX over the last few weeks. I use X as my primary editor and ouse Premiere when it is the only option. What I find is that I can remember most of the basic Premiere functions that keep me moving along at a decent pace. But just the differences in those basic commands can slow you down (hey, back on the original topic: speed). And that's because I have to actually think that the backslash key works like the Shift-Z, A versus V, periods and commas versus E, Q, and W. I find myself using drop down menus in Pr a lot more because I simply have not memorized the shortcuts yet (and can you only get to the color corrector by going to Workspaces?). In X, I barely recognize that I have done those commands as it's so baked in to me.

I remember a quote from Duane Allman where he said something along the lines of "the guitar has just become part of my body and I hardly have to think to play". Speed is where you know the software so well, only a fraction of your concentration is on the software and the vast majority is on the visual story in front of you. Doesn't matter what software you are using, because when you get to that point where you "hardly have to think to play" then you are enjoying "editing speed".

My humble opine.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:40:38 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Speed is where you know the software so well, only a fraction of your concentration is on the software and the vast majority is on the visual story in front of you. Doesn't matter what software you are using, because when you get to that point where you "hardly have to think to play" then you are enjoying "editing speed".
"


Couldn't agree more, which is why, so long as I can control it, I'm monogamous with my NLEs. Just curious about those who either have to, or chose, to play the field.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Scott Witthaus
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:59:38 pm

[Herb Sevush] " so long as I can control it, I'm monogamous with my NLEs"

As a freelancer, I need to know Premiere which is why I keep my hand in it. When the client comes directly to me, it all goes through X. But sometimes I need to cut where X is not available and it always seems to be Premiere. I should fire up Media Composer one day and see if I can remember anything from that software.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 12:53:01 pm

If that's your goal, stick with Avid and avoid the frustration.


I am sticking with Media Composer, as I stated earlier, for my freelance work. I am being forced to learn FCPX to do news editing at the station where I work. I am not going to give up everything I know and the financial investment I've made in Avid for basic, simple news editing on, what is, in my view, a glorified version of iMovie.

Obviously, were I not compelled to use it at all, I wouldn't even be in this forum.

Would love to hear from the non-manogomous editors out there how they manage to remember what keystrokes to use as they move from ap to ap.


When I used Premiere Pro, I did remap Premiere's keyboard using my Media Composer settings. This made moving from one program to another virtually seamless, and there's one simple reason for that: muscle memory. Take a professional secretary off a QWERTY keyboard and put her on a Dvorak keyboard, and productivity drops significantly until her muscles and hand-eye coordination are familiar with the new keyboard. Now, once she's used to that, giver her back her old keyboard and watch the productivity drop again.

Much of what comprises editing is "rinse and repeat": repetitive keystrokes and mouse moves. Sometimes using more than one NLE may be unavoidable, as one program may do something you need that the other doesn't do as well. Not having to retrain your muscle memory moving from one program to another keeps you consistently fast in both. If time is money, productivity is money in the bank. Anything that makes you think about what you need to do in any given program, just to do the job, costs time.

When I worked on a Newscutter, there were some shots I wanted to affect in Premiere Pro because Avid's default effect palette is "lacking." Being able to do basic edits in Premiere with effects using my Avid keystrokes got me where I needed to be in both Premiere Pro and Avid faster.

Muscle memory, or being familiar enough with a program's shortcut's to access the keystrokes you need without even thinking about them, is what makes editing on any system fast.

Protecting that investment in training I made to move my muscles instinctively across a keyboard is precisely why I remapped the FCPX keyboard to my Avid settings. Will those settings be as efficient in FCPX as they are in Avid? Probably not. But when I get home at the end of a day of cutting news vo's, I don't want to have to think about which keyboard I'm using when I sit down to do my long form work.

Hope that helps.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 12:16:11 pm

In this interview, Matzdorff said once he stopped trying to make FCPX work like Avid he made good progress.


Well, for what it's worth, Avid is what I know and will continue to use. Progress (beyond basic cuts) in FCPX holds no appeal for me whatsoever. I did knock out a 1:00 long music video in it earlier using my Avid key mapping. Didn't take long to do but something simple - like color correcting - was awful. The chroma keyer, something I played with when I first started with it, is not nearly as good as Specrtramatte, and, well, I already mentioned trying to do simple dissolves is a chore, especially on audio.

Even he said the precision editor (???) leaves much to be desired. And why do you ned a precision editor anyway? Precision should be built into the very interface itself, not a separate tool you have to open!

I have no doubt in my ability to bend it to my will, and will get the most basic edits I will need to do with it done using it my way. Beyond that, I don't care. It's simply not anything I need to go any deeper into.

Thanks for the discussion.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:17:04 pm
Last Edited By Scott Witthaus on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:17:32 pm

[Phil Lowe] "I have no doubt in my ability to bend it to my will, and will get the most basic edits I will need to do with it done using it my way. Beyond that, I don't care. It's simply not anything I need to go any deeper into."

Hey, if Avid's for you, more power to you. Careful though. If you don't look out X just might pleasantly surprise you, and then what!

;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 8:34:22 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 8, 2015 at 8:40:29 pm





Same small project. Same keyboard settings (Avid). Roughly same edit time (equally fast in both, X took a little longer because I reshot material and added more shots to its version). Using X, I worked mainly with the Position tool (OPT-A for me.) Nothing more than a series of 3-point b-roll edits in both cases.

The biggest thing for me - in looking at both - is how much more information the Avid timeline presents me without having to hover or click on anything.

Small projects, like these, are what I will be cutting in news. This shows me that I can be equally proficient in both using my Avid keyboard, and that's good enough for me.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:05:26 pm

What that shows me is the ugly Avid timeline hasn't changed a bit since I first used it in the 90's!


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:15:37 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:24:37 pm

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And while I don't think the Avid timeline is "elegant", if I want to look at something pretty, I'll look at one of my still pics.



(This isn't my best shot. Those are for sale on Shutterstock.)

http://www.shutterstock.com/cat.mhtml?gallery_id=1737520&safesearch=1&prev_...


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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:21:44 pm

[Steve Connor] "What that shows me is the ugly Avid timeline hasn't changed a bit since I first used it in the 90's!"

Sure it has. See? (offline media looks the same though! lol)



-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:58:31 pm

I thought this was a discussion about speed, not aesthetics. To get back on point, for a small project like the one I did, I didn't notice any speed advantage of using X over Avid. I'm reasonably sure the same would be true for someone using Premiere vs. X. Or Vegas vs. X. Basic editing is basic editing no matter what software one uses.

Would X be faster on long form projects? I suppose that depends on whom you ask and what kind of project they're doing. The Hobbit (all three) was edited on that "ugly" Media Composer, as have been any number of movies. I seriously doubt those who used Avid to cut films regret their decisions to do so, even in light of FCPX's "world-beating" performance. O.o


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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 10:10:03 pm

[Phil Lowe] "I'm reasonably sure the same would be true for someone using Premiere vs. X. Or Vegas vs. X. Basic editing is basic editing no matter what software one uses."

True

[Phil Lowe] "Would X be faster on long form projects? I suppose that depends on whom you ask and what kind of project they're doing."

Also true.

[Phil Lowe] " even in light of FCPX's "world-beating" performance. O.o"

No need for air quotes, as that claim is also true. At least for folks who see that from X in their work. Eye of the beholder and all that, right? For those who don't, there are plenty of other "modern" NLE's from which to choose. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:22:05 pm

No need for air quotes, as that claim is also true. At least for folks who see that from X in their work. Eye of the beholder and all that, right? For those who don't, there are plenty of other "modern" NLE's from which to choose. ;-)


Touche'. ;)


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 12:09:00 am

[Phil Lowe] "I thought this was a discussion about speed, not aesthetics. To get back on point, for a small project like the one I did, I didn't notice any speed advantage of using X over Avid."

While I have my own pros and cons about X, I will say that in news editing - excluding an Interplay set-up - I do feel that FCPX would by far be the fastest NLE for cutting news pieces. Assuming file-based camera media, I think you'd be hard-pressed to go from ingest to server as fast with any other NLE. This sort of stuff is very much in X's wheelhouse.

In fact, if I were building a station facility from the ground-up, I'd very much look at an all-FCPX/Motion set-up for news and promos. If your centralized graphics department created common station branding elements as Motion templates, these could easily be installed on all cutting stations for a consistent look. That's a nice selling point.

In today's broadcast employment climate, the world of specialists is gone or dying fast, depending on your market. There's a lot of use of hyphenated staffers - journalists who cut their own pieces or general-purpose videographer-editors. FCPX is designed for easy and fast adoptions in these situations. That's one of the reasons that large broadcast operations are deploying FCPX in their news and satellite trucks.

[Phil Lowe] "Would X be faster on long form projects? I suppose that depends on whom you ask and what kind of project they're doing. The Hobbit (all three) was edited on that "ugly" Media Composer, as have been any number of movies."

The speed of long-form cutting is all over the place. It really depends on the type of project. Some films are single-camera and 1 editor. Others are multiple cameras and multiple editors. A lot of variables. In my own case I've cut features on Avid, FCP "classic" and FCPX. So far the film I got to a first cut fastest was with FCP6 or 7. That's not to say it was slower with X. Merely that the nature of these different films was different enough to account for a difference in time to assembly. What you cut with boils to to style and preference.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 1:28:20 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 9, 2015 at 1:46:10 am

Assuming file-based camera media, I think you'd be hard-pressed to go from ingest to server as fast with any other NLE.


We were doing AMA linking and editing in news trucks with a Panasonic P2 workflow in Avid at last a year before FCPX had been released. It was every bit as fast and still is. For my work, I use a Canon XF-300 (MXF files) and edit using AMA linking in MC 7.05. The station where I currently work uses an XDCam workflow with FCP7. It is, by far, the slowest of the three workflows I've just described.

That's one of the reasons that large broadcast operations are deploying FCPX in their news and satellite trucks.


Oh, I don't have a problem using X for news. It's what the boss wants, so I have no choice. I simply want to edit on it in a way that makes sense to me, which is why I originally came to this forum looking for answers. (I ultimately found them myself.) I suspect many of the early responders to my initial queries weren't aware of the demands of high-pressure deadline editing. Most people who have never worked in news aren't. The issue for the station at which I currently work (not going to name it as I am only a per diem), is that installing X means changing a whole lot of software at both the local and corporate server level because of incompatibility issues with X and our current software (this coming from our IT guy.)

People knock Avid, but its integrated newsroom is, by far, the best in the industry. To get X to work will probably cost as much - in terms of software engineering and man-hours - as simply installing an Avid newsroom system would cost. And even after X is installed, everyone at the station is still going to have to be trained on it. If early comments from our FCP7 editors are any indication, X is going to be about as popular with them as it is with me.


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 2:15:39 am

[Phil Lowe] "We were doing AMA linking and editing in news trucks with a Panasonic P2 workflow in Avid at last a year before FCPX had been released."

I'm very familiar with AMA and it is just now getting to be relatively stable. P2 was easy because it uses the same version of MXF as Avid does. If you try some other formats, it may or may not behave quite so nicely.

[Phil Lowe] "The station where I currently work uses an XDCam workflow with FCP7. It is, by far, the slowest of the three workflows I've just described."

I wasn't talking about FCP "classic". That would have required Log & Transfer, which is a copy and rewrap.

[Phil Lowe] "The issue for the station at which I currently work (not going to name it as I am only a per diem), is that installing X means changing a whole lot of software at both the local and corporate server level because of incompatibility issues with X and our current software (this coming from our IT guy.) "

I don't doubt that at all. I was only comparing the NLE in a standalone configuration. In my experience, station engineering and/or IT folks aren't particularly comfortable with integrating Macs into a mixed network environment with shared storage. Hopefully the folks there are more savvy than some I've seen.

[Phil Lowe] " as simply installing an Avid newsroom system would cost."

I would agree if you are talking about adding X into this environment. I'd completely disagree if you mean starting from a blank slate, which is what I was talking about. That Avid news installation comes with pretty hefty support and maintenance contracts.

[Phil Lowe] "And even after X is installed, everyone at the station is still going to have to be trained on it."

Big deal. I've done multiple changeover training sessions at one station for years. That includes CMX to Sony, then Avid, FCP "classic" and recently Premiere Pro. All at the same shop. Change can be fun ;-) Learning a new NLE is child's play. Try learning something like After Effects if you've never touched it before!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 3:19:59 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 9, 2015 at 3:28:39 am

Try learning something like After Effects if you've never touched it before!


Actually, I taught myself to use AE and found it to be fairly easy to use. Even cut a news package with it once (I mentioned that in another thread) because it required compositing which Avid doesn't really do well (unless you count 3D PIP, then yes, Avid rocks!) ;)

My daughter tried teaching me Nuke once. My head still hurts from that experience!

[Phil Lowe] "And even after X is installed, everyone at the station is still going to have to be trained on it."

Big deal.


My only point in mentioning training was that there are costs associated with it in terms of hiring trainers and lost productivity. Most stations think that they're getting off cheap when they see that FCPX only costs $300 a seat. What they don't often count on are all the other costs that come with it including integrating it into a collaborative workflow.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 4:04:44 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 9, 2015 at 4:18:02 am

I was only comparing the NLE in a standalone configuration...


Which brings us back to the point of my comparison of using both X and Avid on my small project. In a stand-alone configuration, using both X and MC on the same MBP (I also use MC on a PC), I saw no significant speed difference. I shot all the material for both cuts using my Canon XF-300 and used AMA linking of the source footage in Avid.

The source footage was shot at 1080/30p using the MPEG-2, 50Mbit codec in an MXF wrapper, with 422 color subsampling. MC had no issue when AMA linked to this footage right off a very fast CF card. (It doesn't have any issue linking from other sources, either.)

I used the Canon XF Utility to back the card up to my external hard drive, then imported into X leaving files in place. The import was slower than AMA linking, and some of the files weren't immediately ready for scrubbing, as there were some background tasks going on with them. I assume it was something akin to conforming in Premiere.

Editing was identical in both: one cut in the music to shorten it down to a minute, then a series of 3-point edits on the b-roll. In. Out. In. Overwrite. Repeat.

There was neither - nor would there have been - any advantage to pre-screening then keywording or favoriting and rejecting clips before editing them to the timeline. In fact, it would have slowed the entire process down on the X end of things. That simply leads me to conclude that the type of editing one does determines the type of workflow one uses.

If the argument - as it has been stated - is that X is only fast when used as designed, and it is designed to be used with all its organizational features in play, then I would argue, as you have also stated (in so many words), that such an argument is not true. Moreover, as I believe I have shown, in a standalone environment given the type of project I did, there is no significant speed advantage of using X over MC, and probably not over Premiere, Vegas, or Edius, either.

What my comparison settled for me (if no one else) was that I can do basic, news-style editing using my Avid keyboard settings in X in a way that incurs no time penalty on me, previously expressed misgivings from some notwithstanding. Being able to use almost identical keystrokes across two programs to achieve the same thing means I can continue to use both programs in a way that neither forces me to learn a whole new keyboard nor a whole new paradigm. And that for me is a good thing. ;)


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 1:46:19 pm

[Phil Lowe] "What my comparison settled for me (if no one else) was that I can do basic, news-style editing using my Avid keyboard settings in X in a way that incurs no time penalty on me, previously expressed misgivings from some notwithstanding."

I would tend to agree and I don't think this approach is necessarily wrong. Just a different path to the same destination. As an aside, this article about FCPX in TV enterprise-level installations might be of interest.

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1687-final-cut-pro-x-in-enterprise...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 10:10:32 pm

[Phil Lowe] "The biggest thing for me - in looking at both - is how much more information the Avid timeline presents me without having to hover or click on anything."

Phil, can you describe some of the info you feel you can "see" in the AVID timeline that's hidden in the X timeline?

Is it Project stuff? Asset stuff? Arrangement stuff? What's missing?

As an editor with ZERO AVID experience, I'm just curious.

Thanks.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Neil Goodman
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 10:24:59 pm
Last Edited By Neil Goodman on Dec 8, 2015 at 10:31:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "As an editor with ZERO AVID experience, I'm just curious."



As an Editor with zero avid experience, as well PPro from what I've picked up -

Is it possible your not qualified to make the assumptions FCPX is way faster than all the rest since you havent used the rest ?

Is it possible your not aware that other NLE';s can do the very same things that FCPX can do?

How do you know Avid isnt the workflow enhancer youve always been looking for if youve never tried it.

You always slag people for writing off X because "they dont know it well enough".. "there holding it wrong"

I was always under the impression you were an avid editor at some point which is how you formed your conclusion it wasn't for you.

Honest question.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 10:56:22 pm

[Neil Goodman] "As an Editor with zero avid experience, as well PPro from what I've picked up -

Is it possible your not qualified to make the assumptions FCPX is way faster than all the rest since you havent used the rest ?

Is it possible your not aware that other NLE';s can do the very same things that FCPX can do?

I was always under the impression you were an avid editor at some point which is how you formed your conclusion it wasn't for you.

Honest question."


Nope, you've invented an idea about me that I've never expressed. : )

Check carefully and you'll see I've NEVER claimed that X is faster than any other NLE. I've been scrupulously clear from day one. I've never edited on AVID or Premiere Pro (by choice.) I spent 10 plus years editing on FCP Legacy before adopting X. And I've clearly described that many times right here.

I've claimed (and still do strongly) that *I* AM nearly always WAY faster getting the same tasks done in X that used to take me a lot longer in the decade I was cutting almost daily on FCP Legacy. Thats all.

For all I know I'd be FINE cutting in AVID or PPro - maybe even FAST at it? we'll never know. And if you check, you'll see that I've never claimed a comparison to those programs directly. .

I just happened to learn and "click" with X. It was very exciting and very empowering from day 1 for me. So there was no reason for me to look any farther.

If you want an inter-NLE comparison you'll have to look elsewhere.

I've posted EXTENSIVELY when somebody who doesn't use X talks about how they think X works. That's all.

If somebody were to write here that they are 10, 15 or even 20% faster in Premiere Pro CC than they were in Premier Pro NON-CC - I'd listen to them. That's useful comparison for that audience. But nobody seems to be saying that very much. Which is NOT to say it's not true. It's just that the claim of increased editing speed don't seem to come up in discussions of the other software. All I've ever claimed is that I'm significantly (very significantly!) faster in getting my work done in FCP X than I was in FCP Legacy. That's all.

(I do write critically about NLE "business models" occasionally, because I've run a production business for 20 years plus - but I NEVER write about how other NLEs function. I leave that to those who know them like I know X.)

Hope that helps.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Gissing
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:15:04 pm

[Bill Davis] "Check carefully and you'll see I've NEVER claimed that X is faster than any other NLE."

Not often we agree Bill but I will back you on that. However Niel may well believe you are when you so often make claims about how an X feature is the best thing since sliced bread.

You do so often speak of a feature as if it is exclusive or better in X but when others point out that feature was always in Legend or Pr or AVID etc you do acknowledge when you didn't know that. By setting yourself as a proclaimer for X it is inevitable that people will assume you speak from a deeper experience of many NLE systems. More regular readers of this forum over the years may know you don't.

Personally I understand that when you have found a software program that works the way you want it too that it makes everything much more fun and you want to share the love. I am much the same with my preference for Fairlight over ProTools which I have almost never used and like you I try to avoid comparisons.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:22:46 pm

[Michael Gissing] "By setting yourself as a proclaimer for X it is inevitable that people will assume you speak from a deeper experience of many NLE systems. More regular readers of this forum over the years may know you don't."

Well, I'm not sure I "set myself up" as anything. All I've done since day one is read people who post about how they THINK X works, (particularly in the beginning when it's clear most people had internalized WAY more anger than actual knowledge - and express my disagreements when I think they have it wrong.

Maybe it's a "glass half full/half empty" thing.

I say what I say from a place of honest conviction - and if it doesn't connect with what someone else thinks, they presume I'm claiming shortage in their opinion when I'm actually describing abundance within mine?

Of course that might well describe about 90% of internet discussions - and so it goes. ; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Gissing
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:34:29 pm

[Bill Davis]"Well, I'm not sure I "set myself up" as anything."

Too modest. Having just told us how "internet famous" you are, I find that amusing.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 5:32:33 am

[Michael Gissing] "Too modest. Having just told us how "internet famous" you are, I find that amusing.
"


Try - to - learn - to - read - accurately.

I told a story about something someone said to me.

I told it as a cautionary tale about how far what we post here sometimes reaches and how that surprised me.

It was a true story. Like all the posts here - my NAME is attached to it clearly.

If you don't like my stories, heres a clue. When you see my name on something DONT CLICK on it.

I'm reliably told the ENTIRE internet pretty much works this way.

Yours for safe browsing.... Bill

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:54:14 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:57:02 pm

One of my many complaints bout FCPX, Bill, which is equally true of FCP7, I might add, is that I cannot see clip lengths associated with clips on the timeline. You either have to select the clip or look elsewhere on the screen for that information. I can customize - to a great extent - the information the Avid timeline presents me associated with each and every clip, so that this information is immediately available at a glance, without hovering over the clip or selecting it. In most cases, I prefer simply displaying the clip duration right on the clip, but I can also indicate the clip name and other metadata should I choose.

I can choose to display audio waveforms if I wish. I turn those off because they adversely affect performance.

I can customize the color of my tracks, so that I immediately know - at a glance - whether I'm looking at video or audio (yes, I know, this is true in X, too).

In short, what I know of both so far, is that the Avid timeline can be customized to meet my needs based on any type of edit I do, and that customization helps make me faster using it by presenting as much or as little information as I want.

And then there's this:



Sitting immediately above my Avid timeline (where the timecode sits in X) is my timecode tool. While it is currently customized for only four timecode iterations, I can use up to eight lines, if needed, all available at a glance.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 5:48:19 am

Thank you. This helps me understand your thinking and why X presents a bit of a brick wall for you.

And you are correct, it probably always will.

It takes a while and a willingness to confront some of the new ideas in X. For example, it confuses editors at first that there is no longer a brick wall at zero seconds in the X storyline as there is in most NLEs - and you can attach and work LEFT just as easily as right when building things (the zero point floats as needed.)

It's counterintuitive at first and so I avoided it for the first 6 months or so when I converted.

Then I had a project on a killer deadline where the content for the middle arrived before the content for the beginning, and I woke up to the fact that there was literally no penalty for working "from the middle out" rather than left to right in strict progressing time.

I eventually started giving myself permission to think back to front, or jumping around as the project required and it was another one of the many "foreign" concepts that once understood, presented another a-ha! moment in my editing.

But again, it's not going to be for everyone. Many people find no reason to EVER value not needing to begin at ZERO and build everything in strict "left to right ascending time" (something by the way you can "force" X to do when it's appropriate - but is an OPTION - not the only way the software works.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate the time you took to explain your thinking.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:14:20 am

I can build from the middle out and even from the end back in Avid, too. I do this one of two ways: building these elements on separate timelines then dropping them into the final cut as needed (which is what I did on the church video I produced earlier), or build these elements on the same timeline with gaps where other elements will eventually go.

Dropping them into the final edit can be done one of two ways: copy and paste or by dragging the first edited sequence into the source monitor then inserting (or overwriting it) it into the second.

This was the method I used most often when editing half-hour news specials where I worked in Detroit. Each segment would be produced on its own sequence then dropped into a final timeline with all the commercial bumps. Cutting a single segment to hit a certain length on its own timeline was a lot easier than trying to cut it as part of a full half-hour show, then trying to adjust the timing of a single segment on the finished sequence.

Again, a workflow thing. ;)


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:22:38 pm

[Phil Lowe] "Again, a workflow thing. ;)"

Absolutely, and I never argued that at editor can't work middle out in any NLE. Of course they can. Every day editors insert work along timelines.

All I argued is that the magnetic changes Randy U made in re-imagining the X editing environment have been conducive to how some editors (myself included) tend to work.

Friction has been removed from tasks that used to be more difficult. So they may be more likely to be a "first resort" than they used to be.

That's what I felt changed for me.

In the old days if I knew another editor was working on a 10 second motion graphics opening segment - I would likely leave a 10 second slug at the beginning of my timeline to note that. It was a convenience of thought.

Nowadays I don't bother. I just cut what I want - when I want - because there is NO mental penalty to working in discrete sections and concatenating them later. Magnetism in X makes that reflexively easier.

It's obviously not wrong or worse or inefficient to do what I used to do regularly - it's the way I used to think because of HOW my software used to work.

And it's also not wrong or worse or inefficient to do things how I now do them in X (tho with the number or people here trying to dang hard to argue that it IS wrong astonishes me!)

I ENJOY thinking of the Zero point as floating in X. It's a mental image that makes me MORE likely to consider working UPSTREAM rather than getting stuck always thinking that I'm only making progress when I'm adding to the right.

I require NOBODY else to think this way.

And am genuinely weirded out when people freak out about how I describe it.

In this thread, voices have jumped in to explain how other software does the same - then launch into all the exceptions in thinking needed to DO the same thing.

To me that's friction.

To a non-magnetic thinking editor, I'm sure how I do it is seen as the same friction.

And I'm sure we're BOTH correct.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:59:44 am

[Bill Davis] "For example, it confuses editors at first that there is no longer a brick wall at zero seconds in the X storyline as there is in most NLEs - and you can attach and work LEFT just as easily as right when building things (the zero point floats as needed.)"

So a ripple insert then? Also I've yet to see an editor that starts their work at the beginning of their timeline.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:43:17 pm

[Tero Ahlfors] "So a ripple insert then?"

Well, a magnetic ripple insert, actually.

In X the magnetic timeline has a whole set of behaviors that govern the relationship between adjacent assets in the storyline.

For example, the ripple insert anywhere on the primary doesn't mess with the sync relationships you've established with anything else up or downstream of the area of action.

It's more than persistent ripple. It's persistent ripple WITH what amounts to default asset relationship locking.

An environment with different rules.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:48:54 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:49:24 pm

[Bill Davis] "An environment with different rules."

It's a ripple insert. The X timeline prevents unintentional overwrites, but you can do essentially the same thing in Ripple mode in other NLE's

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Hancock
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:54:43 pm

[Bill Davis] "An environment with different rules."

Yes, but if you're editing the middle section of your video first and need to cut something in at the beginning of your timeline it's just an insert edit on every NLE.

In FCPX you insert into the primary and by default everything is sync locked to it, so it all moves down.

In Avid/FCP/Premiere you insert onto any track with all sync locks on. You get the exact same result.

The only time this would differ would be if, in FCPX, you had a connected clip that was starting before the first clip in your primary. Then you could insert directly in front of that first primary clip, under the connected clip, and it wouldn't split it like it would in a tracked NLE. But then again, that's only if the connect clip was connected to the primary clip and not to a gap clip. So either get your connection set right then insert (FCPX), or insert then fix a split clip (tracked timeline).

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Tony West
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 1:57:36 pm

[Phil Lowe] "The biggest thing for me - in looking at both - is how much more information the Avid timeline presents me without having to hover or click on anything."

I prefer to see the waveforms in the TL. It's a shame you have to turn those off for performance.

When a have VO's I can "see" where the breaks in the takes are and it's faster to skim up to the next take visually.

I also want to see the video thumbnails to quickly see what's what.

Those things are more important to me then seeing the length of a source clip when it comes to speed.

That blank TL would slow my workflow down.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:49:24 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:17:55 pm

When a have VO's I can "see" where the breaks in the takes are and it's faster to skim up to the next take visually.


As I record voice-overs (VOs) on the fly right to the timeline, I tap the F3 key at the beginning and end of each take, double or triple-tapping on restarts. This lays down markers that provide the visual cues I need for each take's in and out. Unlike markers in FCP7, which are locked to the timeline and don't change as extraneous material is deleted, or FCPX that provides no real-time marking of VOs at all, Avid's markers are linked to the clip itself, so that when I eliminate extraneous material, the markers are either eliminated with it, or stay linked to the parts of the clip where I placed them, allowing me to find the next good take.

FCP7's markers are utterly useless in that regard and, as noted, FCPX doesn't even offer real-time marking. Using markers in Avid, I can clean up voice tracks extremely quickly without ever once having to look at a waveform.

I also want to see the video thumbnails to quickly see what's what.


Avid also provides a filmstrip view. I've never used it because, again, it affects performance. As someone else noted, a large project in FCPX will also suffer from performance issues having to refresh all those thumbnails and waveforms in real-time, so this is not merely a track-based editing issue.

Those things are more important to me then seeing the length of a source clip when it comes to speed. That blank TL would slow my workflow down.


Different strokes. ;)

Again, I can reveal an insane amount of metadata associated with each clip, including clip frames and a filmstrip view, if I need it. Most of the time I don't but, on occasion, I do. Being able to customize it for just the information I need when I need it, and then save those views as presets that I can recall with a click - if needed - means I can see what I need to see at the clip level, on the timeline, at a glance. Instant feedback for whatever information I need when I need it.

And yes, any individual track or all of them can be enlarged to accommodate all the extra information.





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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:54:01 pm

[Phil Lowe] "FCPX doesn't even offer real-time marking. "

Do you mean when recording? Because it certainly does during playback.


[Phil Lowe] "As someone else noted, a large project in FCPX will also suffer from performance issues having to refresh all those thumbnails and waveforms in real-time,"

If you're speaking about using filmstrip view in the timeline, i agree. But filmstrip view/skimming in the Browser is incredibly useful and, once the thumbs are generated, doesn't affect performance at all. FWIW. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:33:03 pm

Do you mean when recording?


Yes, which is when I like to drop markers on takes.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:46:37 pm

[Phil Lowe] "Yes, which is when I like to drop markers on takes."

Seriously, if you're going to be doing a lot of "on the fly" VO work in X for your job - you really, really should explore the Voiceover system in X as it's designed.

It's really efficient and easy.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:34:31 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:49:00 pm

[Phil Lowe] "FCP7's markers are utterly useless in that regard and, as noted, FCPX doesn't even offer real-time marking. "

Again, Phil, you're trying to drive X like you drove earlier NLEs and it's NOT designed to work that way.
As a long time VO Guy and Narrator, I'll tell you that in my professional opinionX has a MUCH more sophsiticated system for doing what it appears you are doing.

Search "FCP X Voiceover" - for tutorials. It has a dedicated voice over pop-up module that looks simple at first, but is surprisingly sophisticated particularly since it can directly feed into X's Auditions functions.

It makes on the fly recording, managing and perfecting audio for video (especially VO and narration) extremely simple and robust right inside the app.

And you don't have to use a single marker to make it work.

Worth checking out.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:54:24 pm

As a long time VO Guy and Narrator, I'll tell you that in my professional opinionX has a MUCH more sophsiticated system for doing what it appears you are doing.


I've used the VO Record tool in X. I don't really care that it may be more "sophisticated." For me, marking takes on the fly was incredibly fast and simple, even when I was doing my own voice over work. The fact that X eliminated something even 7 had, as imperfect as it is, hamstrings X and constrains users, again, to working only one way.

In Avid, I can work with the capture tool to record voice tracks and mark them on the fly, or I could work in waveform mode and clean tracks up having never dropped a marker once. The fact that X doesn't provide that option, to me, is a net minus, not a feature.


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Walter Soyka
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 8:02:54 pm

I'd have a hard time arguing against FCPX for voiceover. Cutting VO in FCPX with auditions is just about the most slam-dunk, world-beating use case for the magnetic timeline there is.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 8:32:44 pm
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 9, 2015 at 8:53:59 pm

Well, I just watched some of those tutorials on auditioning clips (including Larry Jordan's). In my opinion, it's way too much screwing around just to choose a shot! And when it comes to audio, cutting the narration for an entire news script as one take and then subtracting bad takes and dead air is way faster than navel gazing at two similar takes when you have a package to get done in 20 minutes!

Again, marking takes on the fly during a single record has ALWAYS been both my fastest and preferred workflow. I will manage cleaning up tracks using waveforms in X, but - at least as far as I've seen auditions used - it is way too "sophisticated" for editing daily news.

Let me assure you all that if I took the time to set up an audition for several clips, then called my reporter or news director over to ask them which one they liked on a news deadline, I would never work in news again! Same goes for audio!

Just saying'.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 10:50:17 pm

[Phil Lowe] "Let me assure you all that if I took the time to set up an audition for several clips, then called my reporter or news director over to ask them which one they liked on a news deadline, I would never work in news again! Same goes for audio! "

Clearly Phil is happy with his choice of NLE, is there a reason we are trying to convince him about FCPX?


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Scott Witthaus
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 11:04:09 pm

[Steve Connor] "Clearly Phil is happy with his choice of NLE, is there a reason we are trying to convince him about FCPX?"

Not at all. And we shouldn't. If Avid fills your business need, more power to it.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 10, 2015 at 12:40:53 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 10, 2015 at 12:47:59 am

[Steve Connor] "Clearly Phil is happy with his choice of NLE, is there a reason we are trying to convince him about FCPX?"

Yes, I am happy with Avid. No, I'm not happy that I have to learn this app. I have already stated the reasons why. I'm sure most people looking at the audition feature are giddy with it's promise of speeding up client decisions at an ad agency or post house.

I. Do. News. Anything that isn't focused on getting sound and shots laid down on a timeline as fast as possible for air is a waste of time.

Producer: "Am I going to get that piece in 30 seconds?"
Editor: "Laying down last shot!"
Producer: "20 seconds!"
Editor: "Sending!"

Been. There. Often.

Show me how FCPX beats scenarios like this day in and day out, and you'll have my attention. I'll only add that whether I cut on 3/4", BetaSP, BetaSX, or Avid, that conversation I just outlined happened regardless of format or software. It is the nature of news.

Want to impress me? Show me how you would take a 90-second news package, with tracks, bites, nat sound breaks, and b-roll from script to air in 30 minutes or less, because that's the margin we often have in news. I've done it often in Avid.

All I've seen of X here are features that indie documentarians, filmmakers, and corporate video gurus say enhance their productivity. Show me something that works in my world as well as Avid has all these years, and I'll be impressed. Haven't seen it so far.

Thanks.


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Tony West
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 11, 2015 at 1:47:12 pm

[Steve Connor] "Clearly Phil is happy with his choice of NLE, is there a reason we are trying to convince him about FCPX?
"


He said his employer will expect him to use X, in the future and that he was learning it for that reason.

I think people were trying to help him learn it so he could use it faster when he has to use it for work.

for me, sometimes when folks write something that I have never seen anybody else write before I ask questions to see if they know something I don't know that I could learn from. Sometimes there is something to learn. sometimes there isn't.


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Walter Soyka
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 8:11:28 pm

Phil, a quick, quirky COW sidebar: if you select the text from the original post you want to quote, then either press the Q key or tap the "Quote" text below the post, it'll dump the quote into the reply box with attribution and formatting. No need to copy, paste and indent.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 8:34:18 pm

OK, thanks Walter. I'll try that.


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Tony West
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 10, 2015 at 2:07:38 pm

[Phil Lowe] "As I record voice-overs (VOs) on the fly right to the timeline, I tap the F3 key at the beginning and end of each take, double or triple-tapping on restarts. "


What do you do if they were recorded in the field? In another studio?

[Phil Lowe] "Avid also provides a filmstrip view. I've never used it because, again, it affects performance. As someone else noted, a large project in FCPX will also suffer from performance issues having to refresh all those thumbnails"


That got fixed in one of the updates and even before, It's never slowed so much that I couldn't use the thumbnails or waveforms and I don't have a new MP by any stretch. I use both of those on a huge project.



[Phil Lowe] "Different strokes. ;)"

Indeed, I don't need to see that information about format or frame rate in the TL the whole time. I already know what I shot it at. I want to see the clip instead.

It's visually faster and the thread was about speed.


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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 11, 2015 at 4:10:08 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 11, 2015 at 4:13:34 am

[Tony West] "I want to see the clip instead. It's visually faster and the thread was about speed."

And yet, for me, I feel I'm faster without it.

[Tony West] What do you do if they were recorded in the field? In another studio?

Waveform with audio scrub. Slower, but useable.


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Joe Marler
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 12, 2015 at 8:39:42 pm
Last Edited By Joe Marler on Dec 12, 2015 at 9:48:17 pm

[Phil Lowe] "Avid also provides a filmstrip view. I've never used it because, again, it affects performance. As someone else noted, a large project in FCPX will also suffer from performance issues having to refresh all those thumbnails and waveforms in real-time"

I just imported a 2.2 terabyte project to FCP X, which comprised 5,667 clips, 117 hours of mixed 1080p and 4k material. After import the Event Browser filmstrip view was a little sluggish until I scrolled to the bottom; after that it was fast.

I then connected my second iMac in Target Display Mode and configured FCPX to fill the entire second screen with thumbnails. It again got a little sluggish until I scrolled to the bottom, then it was fast as I scrolled up and down marking ranges.

In general I don't see any major performance problem from refreshing thumbnails. This is on a 2015 iMac and an 8TB Thunderbolt RAID.

OTOH if you want to put all your unedited material on a timeline, FCP X can do that also. In this test on a Mac Pro it handled 1,600 lanes (ie tracks) and a timeline length of 13,000 hours: http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/1372-pushing-apple-s-new-mac-pro-and-f...


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Neil Goodman
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 3:45:49 pm

[Joe Marler] "His first attempt to use FCPX was editing a little video interview for his wife. He figured it would be a piece of cake for him -- a professional Hollywood film editor. He struggled for a long time, gave up and had to finish the video in FCP 7. He was so angry he asked for a refund from Apple.
"


Wasn't he the AE?

I can see how FCPX is great for pre pro and can make the life of an AE better.

I want to hear from the actual editor(s) who cut Focus, the people actually working on a timeline and being creative. - no diss on AE'ing, its an essential part of the process.


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 4:06:07 pm

[Neil Goodman] "I want to hear from the actual editor(s) who cut Focus, the people actually working on a timeline and being creative. - no diss on AE'ing, its an essential part of the process."

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/focus/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:05:23 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Neil Goodman] "I want to hear from the actual editor(s) who cut Focus, the people actually working on a timeline and being creative. - no diss on AE'ing, its an essential part of the process.""

I'll add that I recently had a loooong conversation with director Glenn Ficarra about how they evolved their use of X on their next feature, the upcoming Whisky Tango Foxtrot, that I hope to get posted this month.

(You may have seen previous references to the movie title as Fun House and The Taliban Shuffle, but in any case, here's the IMDb listing.)

Rather than a specific workflow profile like Oliver's piece, we were mostly talking about speed. (What's that you say? SPEED.) The context for our conversation was their work on-set, where they were not just cutting, but roughing out VFX (shoutout to CoreMelt Track X in particular) and audio (what's that you say? AUDIO).

Glenn's feeling is that the speed (what's that you say? SPEED) of FCPX enabled them to save big money on set, which is where the biggest savings often are. He actually started telling me that they're going even further with their next film, with the bottom line for now being that they're remaking their entire moviemaking process to take into account how much more they're able to accomplish with X.

That sounds pretty creative to me. :-)

To your point, Neill, I also spoke with First AE Kevin Bailey, who was personally roughing picture, VFX, AND audio (what's that you say? AUDIO) on set, and he likewise was very moved by X's speed.

So the takeaway from the Focus team was to push X even harder for their next movie, and harder still for the one after it -- and loving it more.


btw, I really loved talking to Glenn. When I say he's razor sharp, fast, and funny, keep in mind that he also wrote Bad Santa. (What? That was 12 years ago?) I mean, he's written and directed lots of other stuff, plenty of it kind, generous (directed Crazy, Stupid, Love.), and even for kids (Angry Beavers, Wild Thornberrys), but duuuude, Bad Santa. I'll get this posted as soon as I can, honest.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:39:20 pm

[Tim Wilson] "btw, I really loved talking to Glenn. When I say he's razor sharp, fast, and funny, keep in mind that he also wrote Bad Santa. (What? That was 12 years ago?) I mean, he's written and directed lots of other stuff, plenty of it kind, generous (directed Crazy, Stupid, Love.), and even for kids (Angry Beavers, Wild Thornberrys), but duuuude, Bad Santa. I'll get this posted as soon as I can, honest."

Looking forward to that


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Joe Marler
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 8:33:33 pm

[Tim Wilson] "...we were mostly talking about speed...The context for our conversation was their work on-set, where they were not just cutting, but roughing out VFX... and audio...Glenn's feeling is that the speed...of FCPX enabled them to save big money on set, which is where the biggest savings often are. "

Hearing about how FCPX is used in upper-echelon scripted feature films is interesting; it improves the product. It's fun to discuss. However it is only partially related to the kind of work many of us do.

Those guys are (understandably) very focused on high-end VFX and audio turnovers, on concurrent collaborative editing by a large team, etc. Every second of on-set time is expensive. Their use of FCPX's keywording and metadata is aligned with a scripted production -- references to page numbers, scene numbers, etc.

I would like to see similar workflow stories from a medium or large documentary team. It would be more relevant to those of us doing doc work and even some types of event, investigative news and corporate work. With docs the exact story may not be scripted but is often discovered during the editorial process. There is less urgency about on-set production cost, since much is shot in the field without a big crew. This places different emphasis on how the editing software is used. E.g, shooting ratio is usually higher for docs, program length shorter, more diverse material is incorporated, often lots of stills, etc.

Speed is still important but the various software features may be used differently than a scripted narrative because of the dissimilar production and post-production workflows. E.g, If Ken Burns edited a documentary today using FCPX, what would that workflow look like and how would it differ from Focus?

Have there been any behind-the-scenes accounts of FCPX being used in docs?


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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 8:35:31 pm

[Joe Marler] "Have there been any behind-the-scenes accounts of FCPX being used in docs?"

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1723-final-cut-pro-x-cuts-the-majo...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Tim Wilson
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 9:45:07 pm

[Joe Marler] "Speed is still important but the various software features may be used differently than a scripted narrative because of the dissimilar production and post-production workflows. E.g, If Ken Burns edited a documentary today using FCPX, what would that workflow look like and how would it differ from Focus?"

I've got not one but TWO stories about low-budget indie documentaries underway, Joe.

I should mention that I couldn't agree with you more about the actual APPLICABILITY of some of these feature film editing stories to non-feature film editing, eg, there isn't any. LOL In practice, a story about how they edited Star Wars will be less *applicable* to ME than a story about how they did makeup on Star Wars, because I no longer edit movies, but I do still wear makeup. LOL


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Tony West
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 5:43:08 am

[Joe Marler] "Have there been any behind-the-scenes accounts of FCPX being used in docs?
"


I used it on my doc, but I would be curious to see the workflows of other doc makers.

I did a great deal of keywording and made notes in favorites. One of the things that we don't talk about much is the time it takes to do a doc.

I worked on mine for 5 years. I had over 30 interviews in that time and I really relied on my notes in favorites, not only to find things quickly but just to remember what a person was talking about 3 or so years ago. Who said it best, interview 9 or 27

I spoke with the Producer of Dateline: Saigon (an amazing documentary that you will be hearing about no doubt) He told me it took him 14 years to put it together.

It's not really about speed of cutting over that length of time, but what it is about is the speed in which you can find the shots that you are looking for. It's all about organization.

I had never directed a doc before or been on the big screen. All in all it was a good experience.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 8:44:46 am

Tony,

I hope the screening the other day went well. I had to work late so wasn't able to get to it.

[Tony West] "I worked on mine for 5 years. I had over 30 interviews in that time and I really relied on my notes in favorites, not only to find things quickly but just to remember what a person was talking about 3 or so years ago. Who said it best, interview 9 or 27"

I too have found that organization in docs seems less about getting ready to start editing and more about being able to find something 6, 8, 12 months down the road after all your initial familiarization with the material has faded away. The kicker, of course, is that inevitably what you thought you would need when you started isn't what you actually need once you are deep in the edit so even the most steadfast attempts at organization and prior planning feel lacking.


-Andrew


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:10:58 am

[Andrew Kimery] "so even the most steadfast attempts at organization and prior planning feel lacking."

Which is where the ability to "skim" ALL of your footage really helps.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:31:54 am

[Steve Connor] "Which is where the ability to "skim" ALL of your footage really helps."

My current doc has around 120hrs of footage. Use the Skimmer still sounds sucky even if it less sucky that some other options. ;)

For me the best organization tools are some of the least sexy. Transcripts for interviews and fairly detailed logs for broll and verite footage. Skimming and/or using the Find command in a text document is still way faster than skimming through footage in the NLE. I've only had the pleasure of using ScriptSync in Avid on one project and it was amazing. I've been kicking the tires on SoundBite from Boris and it's pretty good at finding the word(s) I'm searching for.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:42:29 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " I've only had the pleasure of using ScriptSync in Avid on one project and it was amazing. I've been kicking the tires on SoundBite from Boris and it's pretty good at finding the word(s) I'm searching for."

You perhaps should seek out what Patrick Southern (AE on OJ Speaks) has to say about using Lumberjack and synchronized transcripts inside of X during his LACPUG and other interviews lately.

It might surprise you

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Tony West
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 2:51:26 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I hope the screening the other day went well. "

Thanks Andrew, yes I did. I can't say enough positive things about the Laemmle theaters. They really know how to treat an independent filmmaker. They digitally put my movie poster up and had the Q and A mic ready for me. Just awesome.

On the transcripts, I would have liked to have had them but I just didn't have the budget for it. With that many interviews would have cost some cash and I wanted to spend what little money I had on rights to music and footage.

Bringing it back around to the thread and speed when it comes to X, to me in a word.........multitasking

When Apple decided to embed the audio with the video on the clips in the timeline that really changed things, because when you move a clip that has video and audio you are moving multiple things at one time. You are doing that over and over again.

So if you have a video clip that has 4 tracks of audio on it, you are moving 5 things at once, instead of selecting 5 things.

It's as simple as you picking up 5 items on a table and the other person picking up one bag that has 5 items in it. They are going to pick that bag up faster than you can pick those 5 items up every time.

Even when you move something and something else moves out of the way in X that's another form of multitasking.

That's what the video that I posted shows. That video is one big multitask move.

Thomas Grove Carter's video that started this was really cool, but his audio was separated already and focused more on organization.

I love the organization in X but other NLEs can do much the same these days.

What they can't do as well because of the tracks is what I'm talking about here.

Of course X has other things that help in speed also like the skimmer and others.

I know it's not "highbrow" to talk about, but it's a big factor.

That's why I will still work with X even when it begins to bog down on complicated TLs

All the multitasking that I'm doing outpaces any spinning.

I'm also having fun with it : )


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Walter Soyka
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 8:38:06 pm

[Tim Wilson] "The context for our conversation was their work on-set, where they were not just cutting, but roughing out VFX (shoutout to CoreMelt Track X in particular)"

I am looking forward to hearing more about this!

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Michael Gissing
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 11:05:19 pm

[Tim Wilson]"Glenn's feeling is that the speed (what's that you say? SPEED) of FCPX enabled them to save big money on set, which is where the biggest savings often are."

Finally in a thread about speed we get some tangible info about X rather than the usual suspects beating war drums. I will be very interested to read those articles.

Details on keystrokes are not where speed is to be found but total workflows. My view that the operator experience and familiarity is more important than the software seems to be borne out by comments so far. And fun. Nothing makes something slower than lack of fun.


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Tim Wilson
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 12:52:10 am

[Michael Gissing] "Details on keystrokes are not where speed is to be found but total workflows. My view that the operator experience and familiarity is more important than the software seems to be borne out by comments so far. "

In agreeing with you, I'm going to simultaneously invoke Scott Witthaus, Duane Allmann, Jeremy Garchow, and Walter Soyka.

==> Paraphrasing both Scott and Duane, the idea is that eventually, the "feature set" of Duane Allmann and his guitar were indistinguishable

==> Back in 2012 or so, when we were wondering if Apple was ever going to release a new workstation (and on another thread, we may be debating whether or not they yet have), Jeremy observed that it didn't matter how much faster an HP Z820 was, because Jeremy didn't want to use Windows, and he speculated would lose more time in the transition than he would ever recover from the increased speed.

Jeremy's long, visible transition to X underscores that he's neither a "stick with the old thing because it works" nor "go to the new thing because it's APPLE and because it's NEW" kinda guy....

==> The experience of people like Walter Soyka suggests that the transition of adding Windows was both far easier than expected AND fun...

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of which raises the question: is changing ANY of this worth the trouble?

Since the answer can obviously be yes for some people, the other question becomes, is it worth the trouble to FIGHT switching, because things really MIGHT be faster on the other side, the answer is equally obviously, YES, it CAN be worth the effort to fight the switch.

Especially as we're honest about the fact that Apple never intended to make X work equally well with every workflow. There really are workflows that X was never intended to work with, meaning that TRYING to make X work is by DEFINITION "holding it the wrong way."

So, in a way, letting X be X is both the fastest way to adopt X, and the fastest way to see that adopting is X for one's own specific situation is somewhere in the neighborhood of impractical and impossible. If you were to truly understand X, you'd stop trying to use it!

Because in the end, these objective sounding words like "workflow" are part of the problem. "I LIKE IT" is a feature. LOL If you have a choice, choose something fun.

Which brings me back around to Glenn F, and how much FUN he's having with X. I was trying to come up with some kind of elegant, journalistical-sounding way to end the interview....but I'm clearly not a journalist. LOL Not that I needed to remind any of you. LOL I like to talk, and that's about it.

So I got to the end of Glenn's very, very generous time with me, and after a pause, I gave up on playing journalist, and just started laughing, and said it had been a long time since I'd spoken to anybody so genuinely excited about something like this. He agreed. He's loving it, and not at all in a "new toy" kind of way. In a creative possibilities kind of way, and for Glenn, it's very much rooted in speed.

I think that's pretty damn cool.

I'll add that I do think that Glenn as a director talking about FCPX as an on-set tool for rough editing/vfx/sound is 1000000% legit, btw, because X's chops for picture, fx, and sound turn into creative tools for HIM -- and hey, a ton a y'all are directing too, so even though his story is in fact most applicable to feature-esque production, he's also pushing the question of speed: the place that speed REALLY makes a difference on a movie is on the SET.

Meaning that in addition to asking WHAT is editing speed, we can also ask WHERE, WHEN, and FOR WHOM is editing speed, and learn that the answer with the biggest bang for time and money with FCPX is "for the director, on the set, a few hours before the rushes hit post."

Right? LOL


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 2:15:45 am

[Tim Wilson] "Meaning that in addition to asking WHAT is editing speed, we can also ask WHERE, WHEN, and FOR WHOM is editing speed, and learn that the answer with the biggest bang for time and money with FCPX is "for the director, on the set, a few hours before the rushes hit post."

Right? LOL"


Maybe, Tim.

I keep getting confused.

People ask about (and vociferously questioning) the EDITING speed claims of some of us who have seen real gains in the type of work we do daily.

I too LOVE hearing about how X saved the pros like Mr. Ficarra time and effort in their feature film work. And yes, Glenn F is also most certainly qualified to speak on editing speed as well, as he is an editor too. But his focus as co-director would be on on overall workflow including on-set dynamics, dailies, and turnover no? -

But isn't the central focus HERE on how X works as an EDITORIAL engine? Isn't everyone here arguing about whether it's faster (or not) at editing? And if so, when? And if not why?

Seems to me that the most authoritative voices on that would be... editors - who have used it for the various types of work that are being discussed?

I've had multiple talks with Jan Kovac and Mike Matzdorff, as well as more recently David Tillman and Patrick Southern who did the OJ Speaks Documentary for Chuck Braverman and A&E. I've also had lots of conversations with guys all over the world who cut Network level TV and Broadcast News, A class Ad Agency work and large facility corporate content. They ALL seem to note how FAST it lets them work. The EDITORS.

I wonder if that isn't what the others here who are laser focused on Editing (with a capital E) want to know in these discussions.?

That Mr. Ficarra felt that in other critical areas that surround the editing like dailies production and EFX turnover X rocked is great. But the central core of the discussion here is editing. And speed. And editing speed.

Again, this takes nothing away from the creatives and execs that are just as responsible for getting stuff on the air and driving business results.

It just seems to me that the opinions of the working "editors" who have used it would be the most germane to the editors who come here trying to determine if it might be useful to them?

But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't' be the first time!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Tim Wilson
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 4:55:47 am

[Bill Davis] "It just seems to me that the opinions of the working "editors" who have used it would be the most germane to the editors who come here trying to determine if it might be useful to them"

Hey, germane is in the eye of the beholder. LOL I think the forthcoming article is newsworthy, and to Steve's point, will be FUN, but I heartily encourage everyone to avoid reading my articles as studiously as they avoid reading my entire posts. LOL

And I assure you that the article will be plainly labeled, to give anyone so inclined as many reasons to avoid reading about the editing speed of FCPX on a Hollywood feature as possible. LOL

Kidding aside, this is always a risk on a long thread, that we're responding to different parts of a conversation. I think that's the case here.


WHO'S ASKING?

My first problem with the part of your post that I quoted though is your certainty about who's reading the threads and who's not. Likely not high-end editors, because we're not very high on their list of places to visit. And apparently not directors either?

My FIRST point in relation to Glenn and Focus in particular was in response to the query of "How'd it go for them, and what are they doing next?" The answer is that I spoke to 'em, it went great, Glenn told me about the next project AND teased the one AFTER THAT.

Here's why the germane-ity of my conversation with Glenn knocked me over. I've thought of myself primarily as an editor for 40 years now. I've edited thousands of hours of stuff in that long, long time....

...and I never once had the pleasure of working with a team of editors and a script.

Instead, for the majority of projects I worked on, I also did some combination of shooting, directing, finishing, graphics, writing, audio, etc etc., roughly in that order.

My ears perked right up when Glenn was talking because even though, no, I never directed a Hollywood feature, his experience as a director who touches every part of the process INCLUDING the shoot and the ENTIRE post process is VAAAAASTLY more similar to the concerns I had, and much more in keeping with the roles I played, than "just" an editor.

So if the question being posed is solely, "Can X be used on a blockbuster-scale feature by an editor whose historic chops are Avid?" then that's one thing.


But the question is.....




"WHAT IS EDITING SPEED?"


Herb said, really, let's stop talking about keystrokes and timelines, and talk about what we we MEAN by EDITING SPEED.

And if somebody says that the EDITING SPEED of FCPX is transforming the way that he produces, directs, shoots, and writes mainstream Hollywood entertainment....well, slap my bottom and powder me pink, NOW you've got me interested in hearing what you have to say about EDITING SPEED....

...because otherwise it's just another thread about keystrokes and timelines, and we played that one out pretty quickly, yes?



[Bill Davis] "But isn't the central focus HERE on how X works as an EDITORIAL engine?"

This has been my long way of saying, no, not to me.

Perhaps you and I can shake hands on "Not necessarily."

I'm not the judge of what "speed" means. I'm not the judge of what "editing" means. If there was only one answer, we wouldn't need this thread. We wouldn't need this forum. We wouldn't need ANY forum.

AND I'm not the judge of who's asking

AND I'm not the judge of who has a stake in the answer.

The thing is, we have over 305,000 members here, and I'm willing to bet we might have at least, I don't know, maybe SIX, maybe SEVEN, completely different answers to the question. LOL Who knows? Maybe MORE than six or seven answers.

Because, kidding aside, I think there are more than six or seven kinds of editors here.

Some of 'em aren't JUST editors, even if, like me, they might be PRIMARILY editors.

So some editor's answer to the question of "what is editing speed" might NEED to encompass a global network of shared storage of multiple features being simultaneously shot and posted (cue Media Composer on Mockingjay), or part of a graphics-intensive post process anchored by After Effects (cue Creative Cloud for Gone Girl), where FCPX would have been a mess.

Just as neither MC or CC would have met the needs of Focus or Whisky Tango Foxtrot (aka WTF) even barely as well as X did.


EDITORS ON EDITING

Not that I disagree about the intent of your question, Bill.

It's why I've said many times that, as much as I enjoy Mr Murch's movies, and as much as I enjoy hearing him think aloud about editing, I can't say that any of it APPLIED to me any more when I first read interviews with him in 1975 about The Conversation (still my fave of his in many ways) than anything he's said in the 40 years since then.


I mean, for that matter, it's not like Cioni actually CUT these last couple of Fincher pictures, right? Nor for that matter did Fincher. But you better believe that when I see that either of these fellas has something to say to me about EDITING SPEED thanks to Adobe Creative Cloud (and, for that matter, Quantel Pablo), I'm going to stop what I'm doing and listen. Plenty germane for ME.


But I do get what you're saying, Bill, and I agree. I really do.

That's why when Joe M. and Herb both added the observation that, even if we shared an understanding of "editing" and "speed" -- which we absolutely do not -- that the relative values in the equation all shift when we move from features to docs....

.... that I mentioned that, indeed, two of said three upcoming X stories are about lower-budget, higher-volume indie documentaries that have production profiles very much more in keeping with the work that Joe in particular is wondering about X's added value for.


Which is also why I keep asking people to be specific, and why I love threads like this so much. There's a lot of people posting here, but they're a mere fraction of the nearly 1.8 million people who came through here in the last 30 days as readers.

Some of 'em are editors.

Some of 'em are directors.

And some of 'em, I swear on a stack of Blonde on Blonde vinyl records, are gen-yooo-wine high end folks.


I'm just looking for a good story, by which, as often as not, I mean a story I haven't heard before. I'm trying to get MORE people telling WIDER stories, not fewer people telling narrower ones. But hey, within that, the more specific, the better. HOW was it faster? What could you DO BECAUSE it was faster?

In other words, the EXACT the questions that you and I agree are ultimately the only germane ones. :-)

So yeah, most of the THOUSANDS of editing stories here in the COW are by and about editors, full stop --but no matter how high end we climb, or how deep down we drill, if you have a story about editing, I want to hear it.


Yr pal,
Timmy



Tim Wilson
Editor-in-Chief*
Creative COW

*They tried to give me the title Vice President once, and I said "Nope, I don't want to be president of any such goings on." Then after they explained to me what a vice president actually is, I said, "Okay, awesome, LOL thanks for clearing that up, but still, no thanks. I'm an editor."


NOT THAT YOU CAN TELL FROM THESE FFFFGINK POSTS lol Aren't editors supposed to make things SHORTER?



PS. I try really, really, really hard not to cross the streams between "a-hole with an opinion" and "a-hole who works for Creative COW," so I appreciate your gracious latitude in allowing my opinions to be held separately.

Although one thing both roles share is a pretty loose understanding of the words "on topic." LOL


PPS. Dude, check your email. I've been trying to write you all day. :-)


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Michael Gissing
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 10:35:48 pm

[Tim Wilson]"[Bill Davis] "But isn't the central focus HERE on how X works as an EDITORIAL engine?"
This has been my long way of saying, no, not to me.

+1 . I know Bill has been trying hard to narrow the focus of this debate forum to just that but I am glad others see that we have so much more to discuss. For us in the post finish end of the pipeline, how X works as an editorial engine is nice to know but kind of irrelevant. I work with many editors so I want to know why people think that rather than keystroke or database specifics.

But for me and many others how it slots into various workflows is equally worth debating. Like Tim, I find articles about feature film workflow is not that applicable but within that might be clues or new ideas. Sometimes I find myself chuckling at how the lean and mean doco industry often finds those efficiencies first.

Of least interest to me are threads about sole operators because they don't have to deal with the world of compatibility of systems, nomenclature and reliable xml or AAF transfers between facilities. But I don't for a minute think it is my job to railroad the forums focus to what I think important either.

So although Herb's original thread was to have a discussion about speed, it has been disappointing to think that this can only be about shortcuts and databases in one specific program.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:09:11 pm

[Michael Gissing] "So although Herb's original thread was to have a discussion about speed, it has been disappointing to think that this can only be about shortcuts and databases in one specific program."

So Michael, what are the metrics that YOU think should lead the discussion?

We all know that today, MOST editing is NOT feature film or network documentary editing. I suspect it's far more likely to be Business to Business or Business to Consumer communications editing. Think of all the info you and I see every day via the web that was assembled to promote something and you can see that easily.

So what's your case to promote other focus cases here in the forum? And how much of the audience here will benefit from reading about them? Just curious about your orientation.

Honestly, just one observation, there's a HUGE order of magnitude more traffic on the "Lets Play" game forums about visual editing than there is here on the Cow. I don't do that. But LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of young folks do. (Makes me wonder if one of THEM is gonna get the call in a few years to cut the big new Tom Cruz movie - after all, Edge of Tomorrow made a lot of money and it was just a big screen version of Lets Play with a bigger budget.

Interested in your perspective.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Gissing
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:23:50 pm

[Bill Davis]"So Michael, what are the metrics that YOU think should lead the discussion?"

No need to ask. Just read my contributions to this thread. My first contribution was the second post in this thread.

And if you don't know that my focus is collaborative multi facility workflows then I guess you haven't been reading all my other threads.

As to what matters in the world of post production, I am at the end of my career so what really matters is what has always mattered which is the long form documentary and pushing technology forward. I have never cared about the lowest common denominator or where the bulk of editors and creatives will be working in the next ten years. Next year I am going back to my roots and making documentaries rather than just finishing others. So my ongoing focus will not be this forum, especially if it just focuses on X as an editorial engine.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:27:05 pm

[Michael Gissing] "So my ongoing focus will not be this forum, especially if it just focuses on X as an editorial engine."

Check.

So no need to help you connect with those who are delightedly using X for exactly that type of work.

Got it.

Carry on.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Gissing
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:31:06 pm

[Bill Davis]"So no need to help you connect with those who are delightedly using X for exactly that type of work."

Thanks for the condescending dismissal. For my own projects I will employ editors who can creatively cut. Couldn't give a rats about the software they choose as long as the workflow is solid and reliable.

But hey if I need to 'connect' I'll give you a holler.


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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:37:41 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Thanks for the condescending dismissal."

Not directed at anyone in particular, just an observation but... I think if there were less condescending dismissal from everyone, no matter what their position in the "debate", it would be much more productive here. Maybe not as much fun. lol There are some really great conversations here when the sniping is dialed back.

Full Disclosure: I'm also trying to heed my own advice. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:55:12 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Full Disclosure: I'm also trying to heed my own advice. ;-)"

wise advice and I too will do my best.


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 5:18:51 am

[Michael Gissing] "Thanks for the condescending dismissal. For my own projects I will employ editors who can creatively cut. Couldn't give a rats about the software they choose as long as the workflow is solid and reliable.

But hey if I need to 'connect' I'll give you a holler."


What the heck is "condescending" about that for heaven's sake??? I spend a significant part of my time connecting people with X experts all over the place. I've lost count of the introductions I've made between people interested in X editing and people who can help them. .

It was a simple acknowledgement that you have no interest in X - so I don't have to think of you when people ask me about editors and producers who are conversant in it.

Period.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Neil Goodman
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 10:27:17 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Neil Goodman] "I want to hear from the actual editor(s) who cut Focus, the people actually working on a timeline and being creative. - no diss on AE'ing, its an essential part of the process."

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/focus/

- Oliver"


Thanks for the link!


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 4:36:37 pm

That would be Jan Kovac.

I got to spend some more time talking with him last month in LA at the FCPExchange event.

He's deep into the new Tina Fey / Martin Freeman movie - and yes, he is cutting it on X.

Most interesting was how X is working to help him track the various takes he's working with - IIRC he was talking about how the X organizational system helps him track the differing "emotional temperatures" in scene takes - plus quite a bit of chat about X's ability to store and recall specific "beats" in the material for later use.

It was a very interesting chat.

I'd invite him to drop by to discuss it - but sadly, after my prior experience with doing that kind of thing - the general feeling in the X community is that this particular Forum is pretty far down the list as a place where high end X users want to spend all that much time.

Go figure.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:44:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "the general feeling in the X community is that this particular Forum is pretty far down the list as a place where high end X users want to spend all that much time.

Go figure."


No guts, no glory.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 5:53:03 pm

[Herb Sevush] "No guts, no glory."

Hasn't seemed to work that way for me, now has it?

(huge grin)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 6:32:25 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Dec 7, 2015 at 6:33:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "the general feeling in the X community is that this particular Forum is pretty far down the list as a place where high end X users want to spend all that much time.

Go figure."

No guts, no glory.
"


lol. I'm not sure the "X Community" whatever that is, all feel this way. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Tim Wilson
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 6:42:58 pm

[Charlie Austin] "lol. I'm not sure the "X Community" whatever that is, all feel this way. :-)"

LOL That is in fact the motto of Creative COW. Pretty Far Down the List of High-End Users™


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 6:46:21 pm

[Charlie Austin] "lol. I'm not sure the "X Community" whatever that is, all feel this way. :-)"

Charlie,

For sure others don't. But I'll note that there are other X communities with 10s of thousands of active members and we both know lots of very experienced X editors who don't EVER come around here. So it's reasonable to wonder why.

I had a direct experience asking a highly skilled X editor doing top of the profession work to come and field questions. And after the experience, he did not really want to come back.

I think that says enough to underscore my point.

I'm fine with a "full contact" environment. Others are very uncomfortable in that same situation.

Herb echoed the same sentiment with his "no Guts no Glory" comment.

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 6:57:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "But I'll note that there are other X communities with 10s of thousands of active members and we both know lots of very experienced X editors who don't EVER come around here. So it's reasonable to wonder why.
"


Do the very experienced Editors go on any of these "other" Forums. I keep an eye on quite a few of them and none of the ones I have seen match the quality of discussion both here and on the Techniques forum


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 12:30:49 am

[Steve Connor] "Do the very experienced Editors go on any of these "other" Forums."

Generally "A-list" directors, editors, DPs, colorists, mixers, etc. do not participate in forums like this or any other, except maybe to lurk. Some dabble a bit in Facebook and Twitter. I'm on several different Avid and FCL "legacy" lists and I never see any of the big guns there either.

There are probably several reasons for this. First of all they are busy and dealing with forum interchanges can be a big timesuck. Plus, most of them cannot discuss anything they are working on at the time they are on a project, so staying away from posting is just a safer way not to get engaged into a discussion that you shouldn't.

One of the rare exceptions is Roger Deakins, who runs his own online forum and interacts with posters when he's not tied up with a film.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 8, 2015 at 9:59:12 pm

Oh lurk they do (when they have time.)

I've had the startling experience of introducing myself to folks at NAB and other venues - only to be confounded with this type of exchange.

Me: Hi, I'm Bill Davis (extending hand while meeting an industry professional for the first time with whom I have NO personal relationship whatsoever: Only to hear in return: "Yes, I know, nice to finally meet you in person"

It seriously freaked me out the first few times it happened.

My long time friend Phil Hodgetts once described me teasingly as "internet famous" - which ALSO freaked me out a good bit. Clearly that is ONLY in FCP X circles - since theres no reason for anyone who have a clue who I am otherwise - but this stuff DOES get read. And MUCH more widely than you might expect.

Thank the heavens I had absolutely no clue of about the reach of these boards when I started blathering on them.

I've done it exclusively because I enjoy the interaction - particularly after weeks days and hours of sitting alone in a dark edit suite with nobody to chat with but my wife, son and dog. (excellent company tho they are!)

But for good or ill, people all over the planet DO read what we write here. The good, the bad, AND the ugly.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 7:09:20 pm

[Bill Davis] "For sure others don't. But I'll note that there are other X communities with 10s of thousands of active members and we both know lots of very experienced X editors who don't EVER come around here. So it's reasonable to wonder why. "

Honestly, I feel that in general things here are much more civil than in the past. The civil discourse still gets derailed by the same people who've always derailed it. I try to ignore them. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 7:14:43 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Honestly, I feel that in general things here are much more civil than in the past. The civil discourse still gets derailed by the same people who've always derailed it. I try to ignore them. :-)
"


That's sage advice for us all


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 11:34:35 am

[Charlie Austin] "The civil discourse still gets derailed by the same people who've always derailed it."

Since it is rather obviously my civility that you are, no doubt rightly, calling into question, I thought I should try to excuse myself to some degree.

I posted a specific example of a specific real world project with a specific set of source material and a specific very tight deadline to illustrate a point of about editing speed, the topic of this thread. Using this example, I argued for the specific benefits of the subtractive string-out method, as against a subclipping/keywording method, as it pertained to this particular project, the argument being NLE-agnostic. (I wanted to make the broader case for having a pluralistic editing outlook rather than adhering to a rigid, single-system methodology at the expense of others.)

A certain other contributor countered that FCP X was exactly the right tool for this job (although I hadn’t said it wasn’t), and detailed another specific method for achieving the same result.

I then demonstrated, by exactly counting our respective keystrokes, that this other person’s method was up to TWO TIMES SLOWER - when both methods were compared inside FCP X.

In pointing out a basic error of FCPX technique in this other person’s method, I jokingly and unwisely suggested that some elementary training could be helpful - the context for the joke being that this person is in the habit of recommending the same to others at every opportunity.

Rather than take the joke in the spirit in which it was intended, this person then decided to claim, entirely without justification, but repeatedly and vociferously, that I know nothing about how FCP X works.

It is invidious to have to defend my expert knowledge of an application that I use professionally all the time. I will point out that in the very first week of FCP X’s release, I was the leading voice asking Tim to set up the Techniques forum so that those of us who wanted to learn and share tips on working with FCP X could do so in relative peace (as no doubt he can confirm). I have used FCP X continuously ever since. I posted many tips and tricks for FCP X both there and on the (far less prestigious!) fcp.co forum, and of course I published more free Motion templates for FCP X than any other user apart from Alex Gollner. More than that, as a plug-in developer for FCP X (as well as Motion, After Effects and Premiere Pro), I have seen far more than most users here of its dark underbelly where weaknesses still lurk. In providing support to our plug-in users, I have to rely on an in-depth knowledge of FCP X to help them with issues relating to aspects of the application with which they are not conversant. And so on - I won’t labour the point.

It is my view that this person’s unwarranted claim seriously overstepped the bounds of professional courtesy. Certainly it is acceptable to point to specific details that one has got wrong or misunderstood (who knows any application well enough never to make mistakes?), but a blanket claim without adequate/any justification that one of your peers is fundamentally ignorant goes way beyond the rough and tumble of this forum and I hope that most contributors here would agree that it is unacceptable. (Tim right or wrongly agreed to moderate the posts in which this claim was repeated and I am grateful to him for having done so. Many here will be unfamiliar with my contributions to the FCP X community and will have been left with a wildly inaccurate picture.)

I fully accept that I can be overbearing in some of my posts but in this instance I do believe I offered a sufficiently fulsome apology to the person concerned, so perhaps I can be a little more civil than you give me credit for … occasionally. I’ll go away now and leave you all in peace.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 1:07:40 pm

There have been enough deserters.

I hope, Simon, you'll be back on other threads as I, for one, value your balanced opinion and your insight from a developers point of view.

Not to mention, your plugins have helped me tremendously and I hope to see more work in the future.

Hopefully, someday soon, we can return to a more civil discourse.


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Charlie Austin
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 4:29:06 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Dec 9, 2015 at 4:37:50 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Since it is rather obviously my civility that you are, no doubt rightly, calling into question, I thought I should try to excuse myself to some degree."

Simon, I assure you that you were not even in my mind when I wrote that post. Not referring to you at all. I hate the contextless internet sometimes. :-(


-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:07:11 pm

Simon -

Please don't go.

To quote from my favorite Christmas family movie, "The Lion in Winter" when Katharine Hepburn playing Eleanor of Acquitane turns directly to camera and says, at the end of a day when sodomy, patricide, infanticide, treason and incest were running their daily course.

"Well, what family doesn't have its ups and downs."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:26:51 pm

[Herb Sevush] "To quote from my favorite Christmas family movie, "The Lion in Winter""

I love that movie - I still have the LP of the soundtrack somewhere, worn out with playing.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 6:48:32 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I love that movie - I still have the LP of the soundtrack somewhere, worn out with playing."

It is the greatest and only of a unique genre - the screwball medieval family tragi-comedy - it's "Bringing Up Baby" crossed with"Becket."

O'Toole: "The day they band together is the day that pigs sprout wings."
Hepburn: "There'll be pork in the treetops come morning."







Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:05:16 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "It is my view that this person’s unwarranted claim seriously overstepped the bounds of professional courtesy. "

Since I am the subject of this (It's OK by the way to use names here Simon, what's the point of not when what we write is tagged so clearly?) I feel compelled to respond:

Your sensibilities were pricked when you felt I was wrong and PUSHED at me about it. I did precisely the same.

What, exactly is the difference?

You seem to be implying that YOUR initial personal attack at me was somehow faultless and mine needs to be viewed as spiteful and indecorous?

We did the SAME things. Descended into personal pettiness. You have apologized. As have I.

And yet, now you now feel compelled to come back - yet again - to personally re-insult me. To what purpose I wonder?

Clearly you are still stinging from the thing. I am sorry about that.

You certainly have the right to explain what YOU felt during the exchange and how because of that you feel that you were wronged. Fine.

I will step up and again apologize for whatever I said that pricked you so painfully.

Just understand that I could write in the same aggrieved tone about each and every point you raised against me.

But I'll not.

It's a stupid battle like most petty wars. And I'm once again on a deadline.

Merry Christmas.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 6:00:18 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'd invite him to drop by to discuss it - but sadly, after my prior experience with doing that kind of thing - the general feeling in the X community is that this particular Forum is pretty far down the list as a place where high end X users want to spend all that much time.
"


Perhaps he could discuss workflow in the Techniques forum instead?


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 7:19:12 am

[Phil Lowe] "Well then I must be really confused about FCPX then, Oliver (and thank you for your reply) because everything I've read on these fora (mostly from Bill) indicates that you're not really fast with it unless you use FCPX as it was meant to be used, that is by keywording every clip and range.
"


This is a very important comment Bill


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 11:41:47 am

I've come to understand that over time Steve. I have tended to focus on the elements of X that are unique to X - and in doing so, expect I have left the impression that unless an editor fully utilized those parts of the program ALL the time, it's inefficient. Obviously nothing could be farther from the truth - but I acknowledge my error there. The challenge has always been that without the emphasis on the need to change some thinking - the traditionally trained editor gets stuck trying to simply re-create their old habits in the new environment - and cheat themselves out of some or even all of the potential benefits of the new thinking. I've lost track of the editors who have talked of wanting initially to lock X in Position mode so it feels more comfortable. It's just REALLY hard to see how that's going to help them in the long run. But I do see that it's my fault for not being clever enough to know how to say "You don't need to change to efficiently use X" while still sending out the message that you do.
Oh well.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Tony West
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 1:46:58 am

[Phil Lowe] "That means being able to lay things out on a timeline and drag them around "

kind of like this? Indeed, I like to drag stuff around also.







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Phil Lowe
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 2:00:03 am
Last Edited By Phil Lowe on Dec 7, 2015 at 8:13:31 am

Yeah, your video is precisely why I hate editing in FCP7, too.


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 4:52:31 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I feel terrible saying it. Is that what this is? That seems such an awful irresponsible thing to have said. Well now I feel bad."

Priceless. Guilt comes to the forum.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 2, 2015 at 8:49:05 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I feel terrible saying it. Is that what this is? That seems such an awful irresponsible thing to have said. Well now I feel bad."

Aindreas.

I know EXACTLY what it is.

You've misunderstood the entire essence of X from day one. And you're STILL stuck there. Unchanged.

Every single thing that triggers "constrained" in your thinking - is just as likely something that triggers *FREEDOM*!! in someone else. .

It's not X. Its you. But there's nothing to feel bad about.

A guitar player doesn't feel constrained by frets. They just make it a tiny bit easier to make accurate sounds. Violinists don't need them. Haven't for 500 years.They make accurate notes all day long without frets.

I drive X and it feels fretless. And after I learned to play - I got music as nice as when I ONLY had FRETS.

You drive Premier and think THAT is fretless.

Who cares if it's Lindsey Sterling or Rodrigo Sanchez playing. Or whether their style preference is frets or not?

What is DUMB is saying that because an instrument has (or doesn't have) frets - it is IINHERABTLY not as good an instrument. And that's kinda been your mode from day one. You critique an instrument you don't play. And in trying to IMAGINE how it works, you're typically extremely off base. It's a dumb idea at it's core.

You IMAGINE these huge flaws in X (NO FRETS! The SKY Is falling) But it's as dumb as arguing that you can't create accurate notes without frets. Nobody is buying the arguments any more because they have proved to be silly from the start. You were TRYING to make software you never understood into something it never was.

You like frets? Great. Play with frets. But just be quiet about violins. You don't understand that actual nuances of playing them at all. And fretless isn't really a problem.No matter how much you TRY to make up reasons as to why it is.

Period.

Wait, did I say fretless? I really meant trackless.

Or not.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 1:27:36 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Aindreas Gallagher] "I have lots of problems with X, but I mostly reject the lack of available constructed mental squirrel holes. You need string out tabs to scan, sometimes you need scattered floating bins at the edge, and pancake timelines - while oversold, can be serious business sometimes. Each case is very real, they all have worth, and none are available to you in X. They all represent messy opportunities for critical lateral decisions, which is a speed of its own at the business end when you're scrabbling. "

I think this is a really important observation and "mental squirrel holes" is a great metaphor which very aptly describes how the editing mind works.

It really helps to have quick access to a whole range of editing modalities, either permanently, semi-permanently, or temporarily enabled and configured.

As you suggest, editing workspaces are mental maps that don't just assist with the organisation of material in the strict library sense, but they can also be used creatively to free up the way you look at the material.

it's extremely valuable to be able to as it were hold up a prism to your material and view it from different perspectives and in different lights (not what you actually do with a prism, but you get the general idea). Sometimes one type of view will work, sometimes you need to refresh your thinking with another."




What's weird to me is that I used to work nearly exclusively with string outs and a version of pancake timelines with FCP7. It was the most logical way to work given the bin and sequence system. It was the easiest way to group shots, and to have an easy way to scan selects or pre-selected material.

This way of working is still available in X, minus the pancakes, and minus the tabs, but it still works. I still do some version of stringouts, mostly to save having a timeline thats 45 hours long, or whatever, but I still use Projects for string outs and then move those selects over to an edit timeline, and use the Project arrows to move back and forth between Projects.

But I do this much less in FCPX. I find being able to save clips or portions of clips is so easy in X, that I save those clips to an area (like a keyword range, or favorite, or compound clip, or whatever), and it is so easy to go back and find it, rather than trying to go through 25 timelines of string outs. The FCPX timeline, with it's secondary storylines, and available Audition clips, allow me to store more decisions and selects (active or inactive) in one singular timeline than ever before. "Healing" the timeline between the different and separate edit decisions/scenes/chapters, whatever, is much faster in X, at least I find it to be for me, and that may not be true for everyone.

I guess X works much more like I think. If I see something I l know I will use, I can put it in some sort of tagged area, and then retrieve it when I need it. With string outs, I have to either copy and paste that information to the end of a working timeline, or note the time and sequence to which I need to come back to, or worse yet, try and remember where it is in a mountain of 50 hours of media.

Plus skimming is not to be underrated here. Even when I'm not watching footage in real time, I am always watching the footage when skimming. I know there are other versions of this in other NLEs, but having two playheads (skimmer and playback) on the timeline in X is really really useful for me.

Speed, for me, equates to being able to access material quickly to make creative decisions. It doesn't have to do with how "fast" I am editing, it has to do with how fast I can access the material that is in my head and put that idea down in a timeline and use it, but this doesn't mean that I am spending less overall time on any task. It might take me longer to achieve the desired outcome, it might take longer than if I were editing with string outs and bins, but knowing where the footage is when I need it is speed, and being able to store clips or sections of clips for easy access now or later, also equates to speed.

In Simon's case, I would have done the same thing. Sometimes you have to our everything in front of you and start slicing. Fcpx has some pretty great top and tail keystrokes that make this quick as well.

Another thing I like about fcpx that I use all the time when using a strong out is selecting the library in the Browser, sorting by unused, and being able to skim everything that I have deleted out of the timeline to make sure I didn't miss anything. From there, I can favorite any potential missed material and then sort the library by favorites and have those juicy leftovers available for further review.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 1:42:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Plus skimming is not to be underrated here. Even when I'm not watching footage in real time, I am always watching the footage when skimming. I know there are other versions of this in other NLEs, but having two playheads (skimmer and playback) on the timeline in X is really really useful for me."

For me the skimmer is the reason I keep coming back to FCPX, "hover scrub" in premiere is no match for it


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 1:52:18 pm

Hi Jeremy

I totally agree with all of this.

The only point I was trying to make was that having a variety of strategies - which is exactly what you are talking about - is a much healthier editing philosophy, than rigid adherence to one principle or other.

Sometimes, as in the case I cited, string-outs are better and sometimes they're less useful, or indeed not useful at all. There are certainly instances where I don't use them, though given the kind of editing I mostly do, they constitute an invaluable and often essential working method.

FCP X does genuinely open up different ways of working - sometimes they are an obvious improvement, but sometimes the old school methods are more appropriate. It's a shame that FCP X is less well suited to the string-out method (and pancaking, and other associated string-out workflows) than other NLEs. I think it's only fair to recognise,as you do, that this is a limitation, albeit not a fatal one.

The really important thing to remember is that not all editing is the same. What works for a particular type of editing project, might not work, or might work less well for another type of project. I frequently make a judgement call about which NLE I'm going to use based on the nature of the project, just as much as any personal preference.

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with personal preference and the way an NLE "feels" to you. Does it free you up or bog you down? It's a very valid criterion, as Walter alludes to in another post here.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bret Williams
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 8:50:15 pm

Stuff in Premiere like storyboarding in a bin and editing that to a timeline is a nice feature. As is editing to the timeline in the order of mouse selection. I seem to remember being able to cmd+click a variety of clips in a bin and have them automate to timeline in the order selected. That's just awesome.

I would like to have another view that allows arranging in a completely un sorted view where you can just storyboard thumbnails.

And for all X's browser organization benefits, it's nearly all lost because you can only have one browser window open at a time! I want to have different keyword collections open at the same time. Some should be thumbnail views, other list view. And list view is nearly useless because it doesn't have thumbnails. Used to be we logged clips and the clip name had a decent description. But now it's 745_054 and you have to actually load it and scrub it to see it. Thumbs are better, but then you lose all the list data. Multiple browsers is what I'm looking for here. For 4 years I've thought they must be doing this soon but nope. And really, I'm screwing up my neck with the browser on the left screen and the viewer(s) on the right above the timeline. Since I can't scrub under the event viewer window, I have to juggle skimming on the left screen while viewing on the right. Kinda ridiculous. Resolve has addressed many many these issues, but with no motion integration or even basic built in effects, it's still kind of a cuts and dissolve editor.

/ramble


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:16:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "This way of working is still available in X, minus the pancakes, and minus the tabs, but it still works. "

I'll have the Chicken salad sandwich. Wait - Hold the salad. Actually - hold the bread too.

That is no chicken salad sandwich my friend.

http://ogallchoir.prosite.com/
producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:23:25 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "That is no chicken salad sandwich my friend."







Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:52:01 pm

I do love that scene.

http://ogallchoir.prosite.com/
producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:37:09 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'll have the Chicken salad sandwich. Wait - Hold the salad. Actually - hold the bread too.

That is no chicken salad sandwich my friend.
"


It is true you can't stack one timeline atop another. But you can still browse between Projects with the Project Browser, they just aren't tabbed, they are arrowed.

And string outs are entirely possible in X. Did you pancake timelines in FCP7? I bet you didn't. Have a waffle.


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Steve Connor
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:40:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is true you can't stack one timeline atop another. But you can still browse between Projects with the Project Browser, they just aren't tabbed, they are arrowed."

It would be great to be able to edit from projects in the browser window.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:40:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "they just aren't tabbed, they are arrowed"

But they are quite flaky still, in my experience. Sadly. You don't always get what you ordered.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Did you pancake timelines in FCP7? I bet you didn't."

I did and do. It's great.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:45:21 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "But they are quite flaky still, in my experience. Sadly. You don't always get what you ordered."

It's modern dining. The food comes out on small plates when it's ready, and not before or after.

There is no doubt tabbed Projects would be fantastic in FCPX. I would love them, but it doesn't mean that I can't view other Projects quickly and easily in FCPX. That's all.


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:44:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is true you can't stack one timeline atop another. But you can still browse between Projects with the Project Browser, they just aren't tabbed, they are arrowed."

Except that X randomly decides to drop timelines from the project browser/history or occasionally runs out of memory or something (?) and is unable to maintain more than a few in that queue.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Did you pancake timelines in FCP7?"

In FCP7 you can edit from one sequence as a source into another using edit "with sequence content". This won't create nests. You can also break off the sequence tab into its own window and work between two timeline windows.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 9:54:46 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Except that X randomly decides to drop timelines from the project browser/history or occasionally runs out of memory or something (?) and is unable to maintain more than a few in that queue."

They do flush if you have a bunch open, then browse back to the middle, and then open a new Project. But if you open all of the Projects at the beginning of the edit sesssion, they stay. It's odd behavior, and not prefect, but since I still use string outs in FCPX, I know how it works. If you do want to open a new Project, you have to browse to the end, and then open it.

[Oliver Peters] "in FCP7 you can edit from one sequence as a source into another using edit "with sequence content". This won't create nests. You can also break off the sequence tab into its own window and work between two timeline windows."

WHAT!?!? YOU'RE KIDDING!!!!

No, Im kidding. Of course I knew this. I used multiple timelines in FCP7 just like anyone else, because the program doesn't offer much else in UI design to get access to footage quickly and easily.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 4, 2015 at 10:23:03 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Dec 4, 2015 at 10:58:49 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "most efficient way to use pancaked timelines though is copy and paste. Which is why pancaking is an even greater advantage over tabbing."

I've decided drag and drop from the pancake vs copy makes no odds - half the time I'll even go to the source monitor?

That goes the whole pre-editing in string outs. I find the biggest thing maybe, in short form, is having a sense of the pace of the piece, so that the stuff you cut into the string out to drop in is already at something like the same clip length gallop as the destination - that you have it your head and you pre-triage so the shot decision isn't a mile off requirements. I'll usually repeat the proposed track or a temp under the stringout at some point just to noodle with or get a sense of the footage reaction to pace. - *Edit* that doesn't go to sync, it's another ball of wax - I like a radio edit base me - but shortform has a ton of footage / gfx derived narrative.

the idea that performing a very different action in the browser where you make massive amounts of favourites and keywording that might be of any length - again horses for courses - but it feels cart before horse in terms of effort.

Arguing that a lot of this stuff can happen in a hermetically sealed keywording / favourites / rejects scenario in the browser makes next to no sense to me. Surely the whole game is apprehending the footage against what it could be in the context of the final piece quite quickly - in short form. String outs are designed to do that - the footage is exposed to juxtaposition and timing issues. While a shot is cool, it is tragically at least two seconds too long. You need to know that as quickly as possible. You're not going to get that gurning with keywords in the browser for hours. It's wasted time. *edit* but i'd revise that all again - often times in extremity everyone goes back to every clip marker and bin like a madman - in that context I'd wish PPro hoverscrub worked anywhere close to X scrubbing. It is easily the biggest Apple software chops statement. I'll present a PPro bin with two inch thumbnails and basically die with the scrubbing lag. X stands alone in that respect. It is surreal how well they made that work.

Again - I'm only making this argument in terms of fairly dynamic short form. I'm sure X has many sweet spots. Also X was used for the titles for Focus - which was a serious demonstration of the new Chrome 3D bevelled title tool. I thought that was quite seriously impressive.

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Bill Davis
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 6, 2015 at 7:48:23 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Clips in the browser have no added meaning. Clips in the timeline have massively enhanced meaning. That very simply is what editing is all about."

Might gently disagree with the first part of this only - since I have found ways to attach added meaning to browser clips via keyboarding and "unique to X" visual clues at the browser stage - but it certainly IS a distinct and different language. And I concur with the spirit of the comment. In actual editing - you can't experience meaning without juxtaposition.

And will point out that it so nice that in X in particular, it's so easy to EDIT this meaning using magnetic tools in the storyline itself, removing friction from that juxtapositional evolution.

It's how I see things now. Your mileage will CERTAINLY vary.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 1:16:21 am

I guess I have a hard time understanding why it's so hard to understand that not everyone needs all of their clips in a timeline in order to browse and view. And because someone doesn't find string outs as useful as other methods, is somehow not as valid of a craft editor. It doesn't make any sense to me. String outs, much like black and white television, are a limit of the technology of the time. In the program, a more logical way of sorting clips and browsing and scanning clips with ease doesn't exist. If you take a step farther back from the NLE era, string outs were literally the only way to view footage in any useful way.

This doesn't mean string outs are a problem or I am somehow "against" them. I still use them in X. But this conversation seems to imply that you can't put two clips next to each other in more than one timeline in X.

I edit clips in to the timeline and do my work. String out timelines are literally an easy way to view clips to be moved in to the workspace of editing. Even when using string outs in fcpx (for which I repeat, I still use) I very often match frame a choice bit and add some sort of tag to that clip in the browser to store for later. Favorites are quick and easy for this.

String outs still have a very valid use in fcpx. Tabbed Projects would add even more validity. But honestly, it must be the way I think about things or relate footage in my head, fcpx's tagging and skimming system helps me to recall selections and use them in the workspace more quickly. Why does that make fcpx a badly designed program?

If I like how the magnetic timeline allows me to group selections with intent instead of a tacit proximity that is easily foiled, why does that make some people so angry with Apple as a company?

I'm working a 30min show now. I started by stringing out all of the interviews into their own projects for tc burn.

After that, I keyworded all the interviews by subject and taking point, and added markers that further summarize that content. After that, I took all of those keywords and added them to their own projects. I then made a snapshot of each of those Projects. I then did a little cut down of each subject, and once I was done with that, I added all of those cut down Projects to one master Project and began whittling away. The timeline was 3 or so hours long at that point.

The broll I simply keyworded loosely based on location or other pertinent information.

After I completed the first rough cut that was presentable to the client, all of my footage is now very organized and ready for feedback. Because I did a little more work up front, and all reviewed footages are in manageable categories, feedback and changes go more quickly, which helps me out. For this project, there's over 50 hours of footage, I need all the help I can get remembering where things are. Keyword categories help to narrow down where that footage is rather than the 25 2 hour string out timelines I created in the beginning. And I can't stress enough how useful being able to sort the entire library (or keyword collection(s)) by "unused" helps to get to remaining content quickly.

I don't think X is for everyone, but that doesn't mean X can't put two clips together.


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Oliver Peters
Re: what is editing speed ?
on Dec 7, 2015 at 1:41:45 am