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You are all amateurs....

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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alban egger
You are all amateurs....
on Jul 2, 2011 at 11:22:34 pm

I am sick of this pro-talk.

We are all amateurs. The one editor who never edited anythng less than 65mm ....ok I am generous....32mm footage step forward and float to the top as the real pro. But anyone who ever touched 5D, 7D , 2/3-inch material, hell even Red.......you are busted as an amateur, because you compromised yourself. You should never accept this digital "crap"

seriously what's going on these days here is ridiculous and not worthy of a forum of professionals and motivated amateurs. FcpX is barely out and is arguably the most interesting editing-software release of the year and all you can say is "but it doesn't fit my 2007-workflow"?

If you don't see the gamechanging potential in FcpX (yes, potential, because I understand FcpX is far from being finished) then you probably didn't see it in the Nikon D90 either. You know what......in that case I feel safe calling you an amateur, because you have no idea about your field of work and how quickly it evolves.

As I said, if your life is around 32mm and nothing else, you are entitled to call yourself a pro and your workflow will be a different beast, but anyone who is editing what's thrown at him/her will need to acknowledge the times of digital filmmaking are changing much faster than we ever imagined. 4 years ago nobody dreamt of DSLR footage, now it is flooding the net and the TV sets. And it actually looks good (especially for the price)when used and handled properly.

I am not here to sell any product, but if you have criticism on FcpX please use it for a few days before posting ideas of the last century. If you don't have Fcp7 and can' t use it, stay away. If you have Fcp7 and really need a new software (?!) move on, but do so in a civilized manner. And I know many are moving on without FCP.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 2, 2011 at 11:31:39 pm

Agree.

Besides,an amateur is someone who does something for love. It's always been strange when people use it as an insult.

Anyone who doesn't love it should get the **** out.

As for "Pros", there are a myriad kinds of pro, and this program works for some and not others.

To define only "me, me, me" as a pro is something I've seen since the "pros" were never going to use DV, never going to use the EOS 5D for serious photography, never going to use DSLRs for filmmaking, oh, and never going to use the early Final Cut Pro for "Pro" use.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:17:47 am

[Gary Pollard] "To define only "me, me, me" as a pro is something I've seen since the "pros" were never going to use DV, never going to use the EOS 5D for serious photography, never going to use DSLRs for filmmaking, oh, and never going to use the early Final Cut Pro for "Pro" use."

Funny you would mention that about Final Cut. Shane Ross busted his ass for years trying to get people in LA to accept FCP as suitable for professional use. This was not an easy thing to accomplish, and then this debacle happens, and now we are back to square one.
I guess you don't realize that there is a chain of command on any gig, and the editor is often far from in charge. Right, or wrong it often doesn't matter what you think, there are industry standards for every aspect of production. It doesn't matter to the EP if a bunch of hipsters think a 5D is acceptable to shoot a film, or show with because you are not the guys writing the checks, he is. If the above the line guys think something is below professional standards, then it is.
And behind the scenes, these people are sitting around laughing at all this DIY guerrilla film stuff posted on the web. I get ten emails a day where someone finds a picture of a homemade skateboard dolly, or a 5D with 5 grand worth of Red Rock, or Zacuto stuff hung on it and they are mocking it.
These guys are the folks with the checkbook, and they read whats posted here, and on other forums and have a big input as to whats professional, and whats not. Things can change, but it takes time because there are plenty of standards and practices that are proven to work over that last century the OP was mocking. And the people that are risking their cash, generally want to minimize the risk by going with what is proven.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:52:42 am

You celebrate the inertia of mid-level industry.

Frankly, the new Coen brothers won't come from the ranks of those people giggling. They will come from Youtube and the subculture. And the upgrade paths will always be there.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"


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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:56:07 am

[Gary Pollard] "Frankly, the new Coen brothers won't come from the ranks of those people giggling."

Your only as good as your last picture. We heard a lot of that breaking the traditional Hollywood pattern talk with the Wachowski bros. But I'm not seeing any more big budget films going to comic book authors, or other outsiders.
This is the same line of thinking that lead to the reign of unknowns in the "New Hollywood" era. All it took was Heaven's Gate to put a stop to that, even though some decent pictures came out of that era.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for "New Hollywood II", to happen any time soon.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 2:02:11 am

It's there. Maybe you are just missing it.

And the problem with "Heaven's Gate" (which I happen to like as a movie) was the exact opposite of being a small Indie production.

It was that Cimino bought into the "production value makes quality" philosophy.

Give me "Heaven's Gate" over "Transformers" any time.

Other people's mileage may vary.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 5:14:39 pm

[Gary Pollard] "You celebrate the inertia of mid-level industry."
No, you are taking what I said out of context.
I'm not celebrating it, just recognizing that it exists.
All that hipster talk of loving the art is just that, hipster coffee shop talk.
This is a business, and the people that invest money in films, or TV shows are not doing it for art. They are doing it to make money. Money that pays salaries, and buys gear. And the guys with the money, make the rules. And if you want to earn some of that money, you have to play by the rules. Their rules, not yours. How far do you think the OP is going to get telling the guys with the checkbook they are a bunch of out-of-touch dumbasses, and welcome to a new era?

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 10:47:38 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "This is a business, and the people that invest money in films, or TV shows are not doing it for art. "

This is both. And the real long term drivers see that.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Chris Kenny
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:58:20 am

[Scott Sheriff] "Shane Ross busted his ass for years trying to get people in LA to accept FCP as suitable for professional use. This was not an easy thing to accomplish, and then this debacle happens, and now we are back to square one."

"Square one" was "Noting is acceptable except for Avid". We're not back to that. The industry is more open to alternatives now. Adobe will probably benefit more than Avid from short-term issues with FCP X, and once those issues have passed FCP X will probably have little trouble establishing itself.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Joe Moya
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 2:10:18 am

Where is the assumption that dumbing down an editing applications suddenly becomes a new paradyne... or, an innovation?

Does changing the UI and file management structure represent innovation or simply change? Perhaps the best way to answer that is too look at through the eyes of Apple's competition.

Contrary to Apples current appoach, AVID and ADOBE have adobted changes in their applications that didn't alienate it's existing users. AVID in it's last release even introduced a more mouse friendly UI to compete with FCP and ADOBE. And... ADOBE was always trying to keep up with FCP editing capabilities on various levels (such as audio and color correction).

Neither of FCP's competitors enjoyed watching FCP capture marketed share... but, now they see opportunity to gain it back without near as much effort as Apple took to gain the market share.

FCPX's innovation is (IMHO) actually only change...

Much of what you see in FCPX already exists in AVID and/or ADOBE. So far, FCPX's biggest impact has been that it provides AVID and ADOBE the opportunity to show what it can do vrsus FCPX (or FCP). In effect, Apple has becomes AVID's and ADOBE's best advocate (even if by accident or indifference).

When I hear discussions about the new innovations and the implications of opportunities that FCPX provides. I have to put and EQUAL emphasis on opportunity and innovations that AVID and ADOBE currently provide. Specially, when much of FCPX capabilites are not that dissimilar to what FCPX claims as "new". The biggest opportunity is that... Apple simply handed it's marketing advantage's it worked hard to achieve for the past 10 yrs. over to it's competitors.

When I hear phrases that FCPX represents "the future"... I look at the competition and see they already have most of FCPX's "future" AND gained this "future/new" without alienate it's current user base. So... what does this mean... it means (in IMHO)... FCPX is less about innovation and more about simply change... a change that simply dumbs down the product so that it could appeal to a different (perhaps new) customer - nothing more.

Sooo...until FCPX gains it's "new" customer base to match it's "new" editing "paradyne"... AVID and ADOBE will be picking up the piece$.

Is Apple back to square one by introducing FCPX? I think the best answer is - not yet. But, they do seem to be trying very hard.... with ADOBE and AVID just watching from the sideline.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 2:29:54 am

[Joe Moya] "Where is the assumption that dumbing down an editing applications suddenly becomes a new paradyne... or, an innovation? "

Right next to the knee-jerk assumption that a new paradigm is "dumbing down". It may be "increasing efficiency".

In non-linear, an editing job is a relational database. Final Cut Pro has always had PLENTY of non intuitive, and even clumsy, editing procedures. Hearing people ooh and aah over simply dragging audio and video fades, which Vegas has had since inception, has been a hoot. You learn them and you forget how tough the learning curve was. That doesn't make them intuitive.

Many of us who've been around a long time tend to see computer editing as a 2D representation of an old Steenbeck or Prevost.

For good or bad, this steps away from that. Even some of the defaults in FCP X seem to make more sense than previous ones, being based on probability of what you want rather than default linear editing styles. I like that.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Joe Moya
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 3:40:58 am

Increasing efficiency?

If you look at AVID's AMA linking of ref. video files... it increases efficiency using an existing file management structure. FCPX decided to use metadata in a way that not only changes the venaculor but assumes that you even need to change the existing file management structure to achieve this "new" level of efficiency.

AVIDs AMA linking simply proves that to be not true...you didn't need to go down the development road that Apple decided to achieve that is fundamentally the same results - linking source files via a meta-data index WITHOUT loosing the file management system that is more flexible and commonly used (...for a good reason... I might add).

If you are using the term "relational database" the way I have seen it used in practice... then, FCPX simple has very little "new" to add. The only thing it could add that perhaps AVID's current file linking structure is that it is less flexible but most would consider to be easier to use... since the application does all the organizing for you... and... that... assume you like the way FCP organizes the files (and/or) their references in the first place. To me, that is a bit presumptious.

To say FCPX's approach makes more sense is perhaps a bit "knee jerk"ish of a assumption... and, one that the competition will definately quickly point out it's weaknesses. Until then, the competition doesn't have to do anything... the change alone is seen as a weakness because it is not proven to be useful at ALL levels of usage by editors.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 3:51:32 am

[Joe Moya] "To say FCPX's approach makes more sense is perhaps a bit "knee jerk"ish of a assumption..."

No more than saying it doesn't.

It's a rethinking. Not always bad.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Joe Moya
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 4:12:44 am

Nope...what I am saying is that FCPX is not re-thinking anything... much of what they call new is not new... it's already been re-thought and being applied in ADOBE's and AVID's NLE's.

However, FCPX does use new terms and unorthodox approaches to achieve the same results. It just seems to me AVID and ADOBE have done the same (and then some) but without all the monkey dust and loss of flexibilty.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 4:17:24 am

I am just seeing a huge gap in opinion on this between people actually getting to grips with it and those who are not. (And two weeks is a short time even for those doing so).

As the very worst of all TV reports tend to end, "only time will tell".

My bet is FCP X is in a lot of pro suites in five years. And AVID and Premiere are borrowing more from it. (And I'm not anti-Premiere by any means), I'm completing a project on it right now.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Joe Moya
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 4:23:49 am

I think it is less about getting a grip on FCPX...

But, FCPX is a non-starter because it has no.., nada, Zilch, ZERO... backward compatibility...

That alone is a BIG deal killer for lot of editing shops....

So, ...now you have editors that are not even going to give it the benefit of the doubt and simply bad mouth it... and, I frankly don't see any lip service, PR or marketing that is going to overcome that problem.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 4:43:29 am

I have sympathy for that issue.

But this is certainly not the first time Apple have ignored backward compatibility. Maybe I'm less horrified than some because it is really standard operating procedure for them.

I'm cross platform.

I like my Mac stuff, but I've always felt I could do anything I want on Windows and I can do anything Steve Jobs thinks I SHOULD want on Mac. SOP. People love that arrogance when they think it works FOR them.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Chris Kenny
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 2:36:44 am

[Joe Moya] "Where is the assumption that dumbing down an editing applications suddenly becomes a new paradyne... or, an innovation? "

I'm not sure what's supposed to 'dumbed down' about metadata and arranging the timeline via clip relationships, vs. bins and arranging the timeline by placing clips into generic tracks.

[Joe Moya] "Does changing the UI and file management structure represent innovation or simply change? Perhaps the best way to answer that is too look at through the eyes of Apple's competition."

Through the eyes of Apple's competition, the iPhone was going to be a dud product. Apple regularly makes bold moves that competitors would never make. They are the world's most valuable technology company (and the third-largest company in the world overall, after a couple of oil companies) as a consequence. "Apple must be doing something wrong because if this is the right move why aren't Apple's competitors doing it?" is not really a great argument.

Especially when one of those competitors is Avid.



Frankly, it might make more sense to look at what Avid has done over the last 10 years and do the opposite.

[Joe Moya] "Much of what you see in FCPX already exists in AVID and/or ADOBE."

User experience matters. A lot. The argument you're making is the video-industry equivalent of "What's the big deal about the iPhone? There are lots of other phones with e-mail, web browsers and touch screens". Skip ahead for years... the mobile platforms that powered those "lots of other phones" are basically dead.

I get that editors who've spent the last 15 years working with a traditional multitrack timeline are on the fence about the changes in FCP X (though I've yet to see anyone simultaneously demonstrate they've really gotten their head around the magnetic timeline, and still hate it), but I am absolutely sure that new editors will understand FCP X much more quickly than other NLEs, and that factor combined with its price is could very well make it the Next Big Thing in the long run.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Joe Moya
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 3:58:35 am

"I'm not sure what's supposed to 'dumbed down' about metadata and arranging the timeline via clip relationships, vs. bins and arranging the timeline by placing clips into generic tracks."

That easy to answer... because that part is less about dumbing down and more about change for the sake of change. AVID does (more or less) the same thing... and... did it without making the kind of changes to the more common file managment structure that every NLE uses. Plus, leaves the file managment more flexible and acts less like a "black box" approach that FCPX seems to use.

Bins or Clips...call them what you like... makes no difference... it is all about how those bins and/or clips are linked... and, the degree of flexibile you need when defining clips/bins. FCPX approach will definately work... but, so will ADOBE's or AVID's approach to organizing video for editing.

Is FCPX's approach easier..? perhaps... is it more flexible..? NO. To me the trade off is that FCPX choose simplicity over flexibilty. I firmly believe both simplicity and flexibililty could have been achieved by FCPX if they had had the narrower and more professional market in mind when they wrote FCPX application.

As for magnetic timeline... well, ADOBE has their version this "new" editing technique...but, it is far more flexible and MUCH less encroaching on the application's existing methods. In essense, when ADOBE went from 32b to 64b they did not ignore history but also acknowledged it weaknesses... and, tried to find a common ground.

FCPX is defined by it's lack of common ground from what FCP was to what it is now... no doubt, that makes Apple's competitors very happy. By the same token, this lack of common ground could easily mistaken as "new"... but, to me... it is just difference for the sake of expanding their market share...but, does so at the expense of those they worked for the past year trying to appeal to. IMHO, that is not the best way to develop new market share... but, it definately is one way.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 5:42:06 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I'm not sure what's supposed to 'dumbed down' about metadata and arranging the timeline via clip relationships, vs. bins and arranging the timeline by placing clips into generic tracks."

If you ask me, auto color correction on ingest is an example of an X 'dumb-down' feature. Don't most normal people wait until the picture is locked to do the grade? Who is this feature targeted at? So at the expense of including something like backward compatibility, or XML in and out, the developers wasted time on that. This is one of many dumbed-down 'features'.

I once worked at a station where the Chief Engineer tried to make a serious case to only have two monitors in the studio control room when we were laying out our new building. He had come to the conclusion that "no one" could effectively look at 20 different monitors, and that a preview buss and line monitor should be enough. He came to this conclusion based on sitting in on a couple of live shows, and not being able to concentrate on the monitor wall in the existing CR and make sense of it. It was too complicated for him. So his thought was to 'simplify' the new CR, and save money on items that he thought couldn't possibly be of any use. I'm sure you can imagine the look on everyone's face in the first meeting where this idea was put forward.
I think most of us are not like this guy, and know the difference between what is useful, and what is dumbed-down.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Craig Alan
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 8:33:44 pm

[Scott Sheriff] " you ask me, auto color correction on ingest is an example of an X 'dumb-down' feature. Don't most normal people wait until the picture is locked to do the grade?"

Both/And Not Either/or

auto color correct can come in handy. In FCP 7 they have an auto color correct feature. Not being able to use Color anymore is the problem. If you could not turn off auto mode it would be a problem.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz
; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Chris Kenny
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 6:32:08 am

[Scott Sheriff] "If you ask me, auto color correction on ingest is an example of an X 'dumb-down' feature. Don't most normal people wait until the picture is locked to do the grade? Who is this feature targeted at? So at the expense of including something like backward compatibility, or XML in and out, the developers wasted time on that. This is one of many dumbed-down 'features'."

Auto-color isn't generally the most useful feature in a pro app, but it does have its occasional uses and is widely implemented. Photoshop has it. Even Resolve has it.

Once you have this implemented, adding a checkbox to apply it on ingest requires virtually no developer resources.

In any event, FCP X does not actually have an option to automatically color correct on ingest. What it has is an option to automatically analyze shots for color correction on ingest. You use the video inspector, on a shot-specific basis, to actually apply the results of that analysis. This approach makes a lot of sense. Importing footage is often I/O-bound, so there are free CPU cycles available while it's occurring -- you can analyze shots preemptively, just in case the results of that analysis might be useful later, without even slowing down the import.

Nothing about this sounds remotely "dumbed down" to me.

As far as waiting for picture lock before grading, it really depends on the project. But, for instance, with feature films, it's not uncommon to screen rough cuts for test audiences or investors or to submit them to festivals. So having the tools to let the editor clean up picture (and audio) a bit during the edit process is not without value.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 7:56:26 pm

"...and once those issues have passed FCP X will probably have little trouble establishing itself."

I'm not so sure about that. This comes under the heading of "fool me once...". I'm not sure the broadcast business will ever trust their resources to a company that is so obviously unconcerned with backwards compatibility.

Companies like Avid and Adobe or even Microsoft can have a poorly written upgrade, Vista anyone, but because they don't totally discard their present users, business's will stick with them. They can be trusted NOT to wreck havoc with their purchasing plans or workflow.

I know that I for one will never have full trust in Apple again and I will be very reluctant to invest my business resources with them, and I don't think I'm alone. Now if future iterations of FCPX are way better in terms of productivity, then I'll certainly consider it, but it will have to be WAY better, or else I'll stay with a company that values my business. This comes under the heading of "You'll never do business in this town again ... unless we need you."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 8:06:51 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I'm not sure the broadcast business will ever trust their resources to a company that is so obviously unconcerned with backwards compatibility."

I think more than anything the pro editing community is coming to the realization that Apple's business model is not a "natural fit" with theirs.

We tend to choose our suppliers based on our perception of whether or not their business objectives are more or less on a par with ours. We look at AVID and Adobe and AJA, to name only those that begin with an A, and we see that to survive or fail they must take account of our business needs and more or less adapt to them. If they ignore our business needs, they will go out of business in fairly short order.

Contrari-wise we look at Apple (now) and we see a business that only happens by chance to be travelling the same path as we are. Somehow we have chosen to ignore this for a number of years - suddenly the truth of it is inescapable. We have everything to lose, they have virtually nothing. Whether or not they are committed to carrying on along the same path as us, we have been made aware of how precarious the relationship is on our side. We have been very lucky so far, but now we realize that it was indeed luck all along.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 8:12:44 pm

we have been made aware of how precarious the relationship is on our side

Amen to that.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 9:19:16 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "We look at AVID and Adobe and AJA, to name only those that begin with an A, and we see that to survive or fail they must take account of our business needs and more or less adapt to them. If they ignore our business needs, they will go out of business in fairly short order. "

Well, maybe Avid would. It's a small company. Adobe is huge, and one of the largest software companies on the planet. Adobe's non-editing apps are ubiquitous, and used by businesses all over.

But, so as not to miss the point here, Apple has pretty much given us teh finger as many have said, and their message (or lack of a concise, unified, official message), is very different from the two other A's, who are actively courting us and sending us flowers, and trying to get in our pants.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:27:46 am

[Gary Pollard] "Besides,an amateur is someone who does something for love."

You're mixing metaphors now Gary - this isn't golf; some of us actually conduct business from time you know.

And, since no one bothered to respond when I mentioned it earlier this week, at the risk of further silence from those who almost never acknowledge salient counterpoint, I will repeat myself: "The non-pros who are clearly Apple's targets, don't aspire to remain as permanent "Youtubers" all their lives. That's the mistake Apple has made.

Without the tools to learn and to collaborate and to work and to exchange like professionals do (now and in the past), Youtubers will remain Youtubers."


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:49:11 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Without the tools to learn and to collaborate and to work and to exchange like professionals do (now and in the past), Youtubers will remain Youtubers.""

You are assuming after all of two weeks that those tools will never exist. Or that an entirely new subset of them will not grow up. Whatever else it is, this is a smaller leap than from film to video, or from linear to non-linear. I used to shoot on, and edit, 16mm sepmag. I used to edit 2" ampex tapes of studio stuff where you'd have to try and manually roll in sync to make an edit.

There've been bigger changes than this that have changed the industry. And the careers of every single person on this forum would not exist without them.

I haven't come to a final determination on FCP X yet, but I am sure it will sink or swim without me. I am 100% sure those Youtubers will find their upgrade path. I am just not ready to strangle the baby at birth. Some of the things FCP X does are a lot better than the way previous iterations have done them. Too many people confuse familiarity (often VERY hard-earned) with functionality, as with the "Apple/Windows is just more instinctive" discussion.

-------------

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"


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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:15:24 am

[Gary Pollard] "You are assuming after all of two weeks that those tools will never exist."

And your assuming that they will.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:48:26 am

Nope. I'm saying two weeks is just a tad too early to call it.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 5:01:41 pm

[Gary Pollard] "You are assuming after all of two weeks that those tools will never exist. Or that an entirely new subset of them will not grow up."

So Gary, you're obviously willing to standby and wait and hope for the best, and it's also obvious that you think that what's good enough for you has got to be good enough for all others. You repeat that message at every available opportunity. We get it.

The problem is, in modern times most people no longer operate on faith. They can't afford to.

There are new generations to teach now. There are businesses to run now. And, there are clients to satisfy now. Unfortunately, the software designers at Apple either failed to consider these things or just didn't consider them to be of great value, at least not enough to put them in now. That was their mistake. And, it's why we're here now wasting our time arguing over this BS.

FCP X is simply a noble experiment at this point in time. If you wish to put your faith in it, go right ahead. But, don't act as if you have the moral high ground, and don't expect you'll convert others of little faith anytime soon by battering or badgering them with the message.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 10:34:49 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "don't expect you'll convert others of little faith anytime soon by battering or badgering them with the message."

The positives of Final Cut Pro X are NOT the message being battered and badgered here. I know you would like to be the the "We hate FCP X" forum. It is not.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 11:21:31 pm

[Gary Pollard] "The positives of Final Cut Pro X are NOT the message being battered and badgered here. I know you would like to be the the "We hate FCP X" forum. It is not."

A typical response from you. Spin the message around, badger and batter the messenger, and then suggest you have the moral high ground.

Sorry to inform you Gary, but dissenting messages that are different from your own are not invalid simply because you wish it to be so, or because you batter the messenger.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 11:31:27 pm

You're not "dissenting" when you are in the self-styled majority, and wish this forum to contain NO comments on the positives of FCP X.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 1:17:15 am

[Gary Pollard] "You're not "dissenting" when you are in the self-styled majority, and wish this forum to contain NO comments on the positives of FCP X."

Of course that's nonsense. Let's face it, you haven't been around the Creative Cow long enough to have a clue what you talking about where it concerns me. And, as far as I can see, you've never helped a soul here, ever, and probably never will.

As a forum leader on the Creative Cow. I gladly stand up to both strong winds and to blow hards like you. So, you can continue trying to bash me all you want if that's what makes you happy. However, if you don't cool your bashing and battering of other's here on the Cow, I will bring you to the principal's office.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 1:29:58 am

Come on David, surely you can see that this has become perhaps the least constructive forum on Creative Cow by now, so much so that it's been necessary to create another one for users to get constructive sharing.

As for the question of helping others, I freely admit a lot of people here know a lot more than me about editing on FCP and many other software packages. That's why I'm here. I will help where I can. I have been a long time reader of these forums, which are pretty much the best on the net, in general. I thought it would be nice to be a bit more involved because I am interested in the new software.

But is the recent tenor of repetitive and negative posts, and shouting down the positives, here really "helping" anyone?

___

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 2:25:43 am

[Gary Pollard] "Come on David, surely you can see that this has become perhaps the least constructive forum on Creative Cow by now"

Stop with the pejoratives Gary, it's stuff exactly like that which does make some think this is "the least constructive forum."

People here disagree. Hashing out disagreements here is not what makes this forum less constructive, what does that is putting people down, bashing them with a pejorative term when they disagree with your point of view, and thus noising-up the signal of some of the most intelligent and thoughtful members of the community.

What you're missing is that the bashing of FCP X may at least have a chance of making it a better product in the end. But, bashing those who bash the application, simply because you disagree with their point of view, will have no impact on the software, and has absolutely no positive or constructive value.

The way to make this discussion constructive is to simply try to tolerate what the others think. Tell them you don't agree, just don't judge them or label them so that you can feel better or feel you've won something. That's destructive.

Trust me, no one here wants FCP to get worse. Everyone wants it better, even the people who hate FCP X now.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 2:47:09 am

Well David, you can label observations pejoratives all you like (and apply it more to people who disagree with you than those who agree with you).

But really, I hope when temperatures here cool down, someone can stand back and ask how helpful this forum is currently being to a newcomer to FCP X.

Something about the mote in others' eyes and the plank in our own. It works both ways.

We probably agree on more things than we disagree on. I think Apple's lack of backward compatibility on this goes as far as being unethical and immoral.

I think what Apple has done is to say: "Suppose we were designing a new, computer-based, editing from the ground up, with no preconceptions." It's the Godardian back to zero. We should be able to disagree on the merits.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 4:30:30 pm

[Gary Pollard] "We should be able to disagree on the merits.
"


Agreed. We are all communicators by trade, and we just need to keep talking, even if we don't agree. The key thing in this ongoing discussion and debate is to remember that all of us lose if FCP X ultimately proves not to be anything less than a dramatic improvement over FCS 3.

So there you have it... you and I appear to have made it to a new level. Isn't a debate better than an argument?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Craig Alan
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 5:58:47 pm

Exactly. This is a worthwhile discussion because people have been using this software for years and the workflow is part of their life. FCP along with firewire, the DV codec and the Sony vx2000 helped democratize multimedia creation in a very big way. To have Apple pull the plug on it feels less democratic. Democracy means being allowed to protest decisions you feel are wrong or counter productive. Maybe bitching will even create some change in Apple’s development of NLE. Bitching about bitching is hypocritical.

I remember when Apple rewrote the interface for Imovie HD. Many hobbyists and educators were loudly disappointed. Imovie HD was a very good beginner’s program that was one version (I thought) away from being a great app and a great stepping-stone towards FCP. Get the bugs out (too many crashes), debug quartz effects, add a second /third track of video, add two or three extra tracks of audio, add QT’s J/K/L and I/O keyboard commands, add support for more codec-s including prores and you’d have a great beginners app. I stopped teaching it to the beginning students at that point because it no longer resembled the profession apps, in particular FCP. In the old Imovie app, I had students editing in two days – sequencing on a timeline, adding transitions, adjusting audio levels, adding titles and sub-titles, unlinking the audio from the visual, adding a sound track. The new Imovie felt to me like students were not editing but rather the program was.

Little did I know that the tail (new Imovie) was going to wag the dog (FCP). And here we are. All that said, I think the new FC interface looks promising as long as Apple is willing to borrow from the past when needed and certainly add the missing functions. Not being able to open old projects – it’s like the people serve the program rather than the other way around.

There are some advantages to maturing. Having to start all over again every few years may be good for business but it is not good for mastering a craft or creating artistic works. It is not good for any business other than the computer business. All the best things about FCPX could have been brought into FCP 8: 64 bit, Magnetic behavior in the timeline, rendering in the background, increased efficiency of end user created meta data.

Getting rid of Color? Big step backwards. I really think that the reason more people did not use Color was because it requires expensive gear – an output card or breakout box and a broadcast monitor. My guess is these will come down in price and people will start color correcting/playing/painting.

“Sometimes you have to go a long way out of your way to come back a short way correctly.” (http://www.npsd.k12.nj.us/20212069133133600/lib/20212069133133600/The_Zoo_Story.pdf).
If you keep starting over you’re never going to get there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz
; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Craig Alan
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 7:01:13 pm

[Craig Alan] "FCP along with firewire, the DV codec and the Sony vx2000 helped democratize multimedia creation in a very big way"

sorry make that Sony DCR-VX1000

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz
; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Chris Kenny
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:13:47 am

[David Roth Weiss] ""The non-pros who are clearly Apple's targets, don't aspire to remain as permanent "Youtubers" all their lives. That's the mistake Apple has made.

Without the tools to learn and to collaborate and to work and to exchange like professionals do (now and in the past), Youtubers will remain Youtubers.""


There are a couple of problems with that argument. First off, "non-pros" are not Apple's target market with FCP X. Actual consumers effectively never buy buy $300 software. Apple's primary target market with FCP X is the majority of the FCP user base that does not cut features or deliver material for broadcast, but is nonetheless 'professional' because it consists of being getting paid to edit video.

This was also Apple's primary target market with previous versions of FCP. The only real difference is that by FCP 7, Apple had had a chance to implement more niche functions for the broadcast/feature market. They haven't had that chance yet with FCP X, because it's brand new.

Secondly, FCP got into the high-end market in the first place largely because it was adopted by the "Youtubers" of its day (back then the enabling technologies where MiniDV and Firewire), and some of them brought it along when they later moved upmarket. You're basically arguing that the tools chosen at the high-end dictate what tools people lower down use, but in reality the big trend of the last decade (or more) has been bottom-up adoption, whether you're talking about Final Cut Pro vs. Avid, the rise of digital cinematography, the replacement of SGI workstations with Mac/Windows machines, etc.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Sacci
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:48:44 am

[Chris Kenny] "FCP got into the high-end market in the first place largely because it was adopted by the "Youtubers" of its day (back then the enabling technologies where MiniDV and Firewire), and some of them brought it along when they later moved upmarket."

There is no way early FCPer can be thought of as Youtubers. Even though it was a fraction of the cost of AVIDs or Discreet Edits, it was a serious outlay of cash. A FCP was still 5-10K. We were also doing work we where getting paid for. (Which is the definition of being a pro). Our goal was also to use the tools to put out work that looked as good as people using an AVID and BetaSP or DigiBeta cameras.


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Chris Kenny
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 2:12:20 am

[Michael Sacci] "There is no way early FCPer can be thought of as Youtubers. Even though it was a fraction of the cost of AVIDs or Discreet Edits, it was a serious outlay of cash. A FCP was still 5-10K. We were also doing work we where getting paid for. (Which is the definition of being a pro). Our goal was also to use the tools to put out work that looked as good as people using an AVID and BetaSP or DigiBeta cameras."

An FCP setup with serious video I/O, a broadcast monitor, etc. was expensive, and of course the software was way too pricey for the 'kids'... so they, um, 'borrowed' the app and didn't worry about serious video I/O -- you could always print to tape via your FireWire camcorder. FCP ran pretty well on the Blue & White G3, Apple's first FireWire-enabled tower, and Mac towers were still mainstream systems then, not the high-end monsters they've since turned into (the B&W G3 started at $1600).

Of course it was a little awkward that you couldn't actually capture a full 60 minute MiniDV tape to your 12 GB hard drive, but... a whole bunch of people in their mid to late 20s now got their start with video and editing like this, and a lot of us (I'm 28, I was there) have tossed tens of thousands of dollars at Apple since then, and have brought their products into all sorts of new market segments, including the high-end, as we've gone on to do more serious things.

The long-term impact of winning "Youtubers" is not to be underestimated.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 5:58:10 pm

[Chris Kenny] "The long-term impact of winning "Youtubers" is not to be underestimated."

No doubt about it, I would agree. These guys are analogous to the millions of weekend warrior musicians that spend most of their weekly paycheck at Guitar Center. Without them stores Guitar Center and Musicians Superstore couldn't stay open.
However, let's not underestimate the gravitas that a small minority of high end professionals have in driving sales to the masses.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 7:27:30 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "let's not underestimate the gravitas that a small minority of high end professionals have in driving sales to the masses."

That's a good point, and one which Apple was not blind to in the past. It seems Apple and those of great X faith have suddenly forgotten it.

Since others have used the golf analogy, i.e. "amateurs play for love of the game," we can look to the game of golf to provide an excellent "working" model to compare and contrast with Apple's newest model.

Although the most visible aspect of the golf industry is the professionals who play on TV, the real money from the manufacture and distribution of golf equipment comes out of the pockets of amateurs, i.e. the ultimate consumers.

The research and development of golf equipment is based upon a model that creates and perfects new technology strictly for, and with the assistance of pro golfers, with the perfected/improved technology later trickling down to the consumer.

This was essentially Apple's accepted modus operandi until very recently. Even the sneak preview of FCP X and the advanced "look see" that was given to the chosen few (i.e. Larry Jordan et al), gave the appearance that the working, or expected, model was still in play. Obviously, it's not in play today, and it could be argued that it's was turned upside down when Apple was unexpectedly surprised that it was going to work.

The new model works for some; i.e. those who clearly like to tout themselves as bold embracers of all things new. But, clearly it doesn't work for others; those who proudly proclaim themselves as being more pragmatic.

Looking across the fence at one another, the two groups have little or nothing in common anymore. Those who embrace the new model see it as a new chance, while the others morn its loss.

The old model was good enough right up until it wasn't good enough anymore, and whether the new model will work, nobody can say with any real certainty. But, that doesn't seem to keep anyone from declaring things with absolute certainty, does it?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Tangier Clarke
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 2:32:49 am

@ Chris Kenny

I agree with your point. This is a repost of mine, but is somewhat in line with what you're saying:


I make my living as an editor and on FCS. Sure, I am disappointed, but really like FCP X and have seen tremendous benefits in my workflow and for my job's near-term projects. I don't think that Apple is abandoning the pro. In fact, I have a problem with that term as I think it's a subjective and inconsistent in use. Perhaps Apple is reimagining what that pro (which includes prosumer) editorial space is and making the change now as it projects it's software and hardware goals in the coming years.

As for people jumping ship - it's going to happen without a doubt. Always does and always will as people don't want to accept change and the methods/motives behind it. I believe Apple will make up for those it loses in grand number and FCPX will be a trojan horse app in the long run in the way the iphone and iPad have been. It's been said that the big companies and studios and such will be the only home for pros (in paraphrase) , but as with iphones and iPads, when the vast numbers of people using FCPX and subsequent iterations, it's vast array of third party hooks, and the hardware that people will certainly want, I think it will be the business that will have to cave in to the populous to a certain (not necessarily total) extent. We're seeing that now. The iPhone and iPad has infiltrated business and IT departments where people thought it never would or could because they've become excellent personal devices and business devices. Not necessarily the best, but the preferred. FCP 1-7 had the same affect actually.

Believe me, FCPX did not meet my expectations, but in many ways it exceeded them and gave me a new way to perceive how I leverage information in my editorial workflow. Aside from learning new key commands, this version of FCP is akin to how I felt about Motion when it first came out - I could just work and not have the software in my face so much. I could play and experiment more and focus more on the creativity.

My FCP 7 still works. My Multibridge Pro 2 still works. I am not jumping ship just yet. I am admittedly hopeful and yet still wary of what my or may not come. Though with the power of computers these days, the sophistication of even simple AV and imaging tools, and general accessibility of communication tools and of course the internet, it's increasingly hard for studios to compete with a competent person or persons with their own gear and Apple knows this. Studios of many sizes have already downsized and closed for this very reason.

I like to think that's there's "pros" in many spaces of content creation. As technology levels the playing field even further and will continue to do so, FCP X on it's own doesn't need to be everything, but it Should be accessible to all these spaces via third party hooks. Think of it like iphone/iPad apps. Who would have thought that having mega applications on our desktops that do so much would be trickle down to having simple apps that just do specific things we need done and do it well.

Part of what I love about this industry is that it's constantly changing. That's what makes it fun. That what keeps me learning. Don't get me wrong, I've been looking at that Pr icon in my production suite with an itchy finger, but just out of curiosity to see what other's are talking about. I am having more fun learning FCPX cause it's new and shiny and stuff!

Tangier


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Justin Goudreau
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:48:14 am

Hey just so you guys are clear, every major network and motion picture company has a YouTube account. This "youtuber" earned over $500,000 last year on YouTube and have over 500 million views. So your Hampton film festival winner that had 15 people in the theater and was cut on whatever whatever pro and you got to do some sweet conforms and maybe even used color once or twice with some curves adjusts and tracked mask, I'm glad that qualifies you as a pro.

I'm actually enjoying using fcpx but I am considering premiere for 50% off and it's nice integration with ae. But for now I can use fcp7 when I'm in a hurry and want to cut something with my eyes closed.

By the way I'm not attacking anyone but just putting things in perspective. The auteur broadcast editor that needs all his pro crap to make a cut. Let's face it it's all bs.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:56:07 am

You're right Justin. The organisation for which I predominantly work, like many, puts a very great deal of its programme content on Youtube too. I sometimes feel that corporations using Youtube for a PR boost is a bit of a distortion of its main value.

Frankly, I think the wisest thing is to be, as much as we can, software and even platform agnostic, although it's harder for corporate production houses. I know one editor of two dozen European feature films, some of which some here will probably have seen, who tells me she has even edited a documentary on iMovie.

The horror. The horror.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:24:41 pm

[Gary Pollard] " who tells me she has even edited a documentary on iMovie."

Hey, at least iMovie had XML export! ;)


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Bret Williams
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:43:50 pm

And FCP export.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 4:59:31 am

I didn't say they did it ONLY for love, but it's a necessary component.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:02:37 am

[alban egger] "I am sick of this pro-talk."

Then go back to whatever those other forums are that you were spending your time at before you waded in here insulting everyone and their mothers.

Anyway, you Austrian tyrants are always trying to take over the free world, and the last thing we need around here is more wiener-schnitzel, there's enough of that to go around here as it stands.

So, go back to your your beergarten and swill down some more of that superb Austrian brew that brought you out of the shadows on this wonderful summer evening (seriously, I do love your beer and your women).

And, just in case you have no sense of humor, let me add the following: :).


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Miriam Lefkowitz
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:07:20 am

Come on. We are not in middle school here. Even if someone is trolling there is no need to make this personal.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 6:06:56 am

[Miriam Lefkowitz] "Even if someone is trolling there is no need to make this personal."

I put a damn smiley face on that one Miriam. What's a guy gotta do here to get a giggle, laugh at my own jokes, write a humor disclaimer at the bottom with asterisks?

HUMOR ONBOARD*****


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Joe Moya
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:02:14 pm

I guess the old smiley face just doesn't carry the stroke it use to...{heavy sigh} :-)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 9:56:25 pm

[Joe Moya] "I guess the old smiley face just doesn't carry the stroke it use to...{heavy sigh} :-)"

Maybe we need a laugh track button as part of the Cow interface?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Matt Callac
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 6:18:45 am

[David Roth Weiss] "I put a damn smiley face on that one Miriam. What's a guy gotta do here to get a giggle, laugh at my own jokes, write a humor disclaimer at the bottom with asterisks?

HUMOR ONBOARD*****"


maybe you should change your signature file to something like
"90% of the time I'm 50% joking."


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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:32:12 am

[David Roth Weiss] "So, go back to your your beergarten and swill down some more of that superb Austrian brew that brought you out of the shadows on this wonderful summer evening"

Yeah, and on your way get me a beer, and make me a sam-ich. ;)

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Brian Mulligan
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:28:30 am

If I go PRO... will it hurt my Olympic status?



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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 1:38:25 am

[Brian Mulligan] "If I go PRO... will it hurt my Olympic status?"

Yes.
But we can give our comrades the best food, housing and maybe even Volga GAZ 24 to drive.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Douglas Morse
The Real Definition of Pro
on Jul 3, 2011 at 2:23:35 am

If you can deduct the cost of yer software and gear, you're a pro.

If not, it's a hobby and you're an amateur.

Just ask the IRS. And check with your accountant.


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Christopher Beeger
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 2:09:47 am

Dear friend, it is not 32mm. It is 35mm or super 35. 65mm or Imax is shot sparingly in features. Some people still shoot 16mm full gate or S16 for blow-up. Some shoot Red or Alexa or D21 or Genesis or F900. Some even shoot Canon 5D or EX1 god forbid. One thing that makes all pros universally related is their ability to work with others. Move files here there and everywhere. Have a producer or client sign that check at the end of the day for work well done. "I'm giving this a try" or "Just wait in six months". You tell that to the man who pays you here and now and see where that will land you.

As for the FCPX lot's who makes a living in post turned it down. No backward compatibility, no XML, no OMF for roundtriping. If you collaborate with others or need to update projects on the fly that's a big NO-GO. OMG wait, what am I saying, there are thousands of posts saying the same thing.

So please if you want to be "on the edge" of transformation, learn some basics of production process. Most of all be humble. Last thing this industry needs is more people projecting the "image of the image". Save it when you hit big times and are rubbing shoulders with bigwigs in La La Land. AND it's 35mm not 32mm.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 9:50:25 am

[Christopher Beeger] "AND it's 35mm not 32mm."

Thank you! Not correcting that was like having something stuck in my teeth.


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alban egger
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 3:16:25 pm

haha, sorry for mistyping. but i see you understood what I meant.
maybe i did have too much of that brew over the years, as someone suspected.

I do very well understand the way productions work on different levels, since we use the same tools as anyone else (well, not 65mm - never got my hands on something like that). but at the same time I just wanted to point out that nobody knows how the other shops workflow is and will be and merely throwing a new software under the bus, because it can´t be used in the current workflow, is just not enough IMO.

I totally understand that for many productions FCP-X is far (maybe years) from being usable. But we for instance have already equipped machines with it and create "hot" productions with it. And the people at the networks who pay the bills have been informed and basically don´t flinch, but trust my promise to meet deadlines and qualitydemands.

I can tell you in a few months how it all went, but I am confident with FCP-X and one or the other roundtrip via FCP7 / Soundtrack / Color we will get it done and we might have a little advantage once FCP-X is indeed ready for primetime; we will know its ins and outs by then.

Sorry again for calling 35 32. I can imagine how that stuck a fork in your eyeballs.....


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Craig Alan
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 7:49:25 am

I’m reading very few objections to the new interface. If FCPX was ready for prime time then no doubt people would be arguing over the new vs. the old way of doing things. AVID vs. FC type dialog. And then you might have a valid point. But that’s not what is happening.

What is happening is Apple is pulling the plug on FCP 7 before FCPX is ready to handle multicam and interact with other professional programs.

What is happening is Apple is telling folks that FCP 1-7 projects will never be opened in FCPX. I’m guessing that the “pros” will create a workaround. At what cost?

Imagine if MS came out with a new version of Word that was unable to open any previous documents created in MS Word. And your old word program will not be supported or work with the next gen of OS. The new WORD is simpler to learn, less bloated, has a more modern interface, look, and feel. It’s fun to use. Everything about it is better. Forget your old documents. The computer interface is more important than your ideas and work. Move on. There is no past and the present form of literacy is owned by MS.

Apple, Google, Adobe, and lesser knowns would all increase their market share of word document creation apps that could import and read the old word documents.

I completely agree with Apple that tape is old tech and a pain in the ass compared to file based storage. But until file based storage becomes more secure, more economical, and replaces tape distribution to a greater extent than it has, the real world is not ready for a “pro” editing program that cannot export to tape. Nor is it needed. Both/AND not Either/OR.

When Apple is at its best, it creates products and workflows that improve on existing form and function – MAC OS, Ipod, Iphone, Macbook Pro are four examples. But they have become a company that plain and simple abuses power. The Internet is providing a very cost effective way to distribute media and ideas. Apple wants a disproportional share of the profit generated by this distribution.
"The New York times has added in-app subscription options to its iPad app, just one day after the deadline for apps to comply with Apple’s new subscription rules, reports MacStories. The rules, although modified from their original form, still specify that Apple will receive 30% of the revenue from any new subscriptions signed up for from within the app."
Apple is not the first to abuse the power of distribution. The old record companies, the old publishing houses, the old TV networks all abused their power, taking advantage of their control of distribution.
Apple invents the best interface for a music player in history (IMO the best interface of any digital device ever) and yet people are growing up listening to music through crappy speakers and in inferior codec’s than the previous generation.

I know these are three seemingly unrelated subjects but for me (and I’m a long time fan/customer of Apple ‘computer’) they are related. I love Jobs/Apple’s attention to detail; they take product design to an artistic level. But the devil too is in those details. Not using customer surveys to determine product development is enlightened. Not caring what is vital to creative professionals is hubris.

I agree the FCPX feature set will grow. Apple is in the business of selling software and hardware so they will make it evolve. I believe that multicam will come soon. But not being able to access old projects? Really?

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz
; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 11:56:39 am

[Craig Alan] "Imagine if MS came out with a new version of Word that was unable to open any previous documents created in MS Word."

That's one reason I already save ALL my documents in Rich Text Format. That, and in case I ever get ticked off with Word.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Craig Alan
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 10:47:45 pm

I'm still using 2004 version. Have no need AFAIK for ribbons and a 1001 icons.

But MS did screw end users a couple of years back. "Pro" users. They got rid of the macros that had been built in to all previous versions. So goodbye all that formatting.

For spec scripts, I preferred WORD with a template and macros to Final Draft. No longer.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz
; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 2:31:10 pm

[Craig Alan] "But MS did screw end users a couple of years back. "Pro" users. They got rid of the macros that had been built in to all previous versions. So goodbye all that formatting. "

That screwed up a lot of budgeting programs for sure.

A buddy of mine had a really slick transcript formatter that got lost in that shuffle too.

Nothing lasts forever.


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Mike Smith
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 12:01:05 pm

Just for the record, perhaps we should clarify that 35mm is a film format for camera use (but not 32mm), and that most mainstream movies today are shot on 35mm. And that 35mm can be shot using 4 perforations per frame (standard, using anamorphic lenses for widescreen effect), 3 perforations per frame(instant widescreen, great quality on digital intermediate), or even 8 perforations per frame e.g. Vistavision, which has largely gone I think with IMax / 65mm film acquistion at the super-deluxe end. Even 2 perforations per frame may be back under consideration, as a cost-saving approach (alongside super 16mm ).


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Michael Belanger
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 3:37:50 pm

I think the biggest amateur is APPLE itself... They didn't actually write the original code for FCP but bought it from Macromedia. They moderately improved the software with a ton of help from the third parties but what really got FCP going was the price point. Period.
No "pro"... meaning someone who does it for a living.. would buy a crooked hammer if he needed to hammer straight nails. So no video pro is going to buy FCP Zero to learn a whole new worse way of achieving an edited project. YOu mean we would buy simply because Apple says this is the better way. Sure.. tell me how it is better... If it can do less then it is not better ... if it establishes a foundation for greater future development then sure the "pros" can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I simply don't see that. Apple has simply given the finger to all those who bought their Xserves and all other X hardware and all of its followers by releasing something at a PROFESSIONAL TRADE SHOW that lacks professional features. Even SONY doesn't do that. It is not good business to tell your PRO users at a trade show that they have released a new VERSION of FCP only to abandon any backwards compatibility and offer no support for previous version, no matter how antiquated it is. If they want the consumer market then demo it at CES not at NAB. From what I can see they even burned their own third party suppliers who made their software actually work.. How is it you have beautiful scopes on a new piece of software replacing the crappy old ones but then eliminate all other pro features. If their audience is prosumers then why even have scopes. Is there even a Youtube video done by an amateur who used scopes. FCP Z is so half baked that I cannot even imagine how that company actually makes a profit. They should stick to consumer gadgets that people line up for days to buy three of so they can resell on ebay to other bone heads who simply must have it.
Maybe if Apple wants this thing to sell they should drop the price to $99 and call it something that starts with a lower case i. Maybe iEdit or something cooler and slicker like iEvent .. Me I think iCrap is probably spot on. But what do I know. I am just a dusty old pro.


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Ted Levy
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 3, 2011 at 5:14:21 pm

32mm footage?


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Glenn Kenny
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 3:31:26 am

I'm not quite sure what is uncivilized about people writing complaints and/or opinions on an update to a piece of software that is critical to their livelihood. I keep reading how we should be accepting this - that it is only version 1.0 and will improve in time. Nonsense, this is version 10 according to the name that has been chosen by the marketing types - version 8 by a more realistic account. Therefore, it should not be looked at as a brand new piece, but as the improvement its name implies. As such, removing the very capability that made it so easy to incorporate with industry standard (and custom) workflows would certainly account for the opinions being voiced. If Apple wanted to change direction and create a new market, they should have changed the name to something that indicated that change, and kept FCP 7 on the market, clarifying the difference. Then people may have been disappointed, but maybe not have felt abandoned. As of now, any facility that needs to increase capacity at this time must switch to a competing system if FCP X does not fit the bill. And how long will FCP 7 be able to run. Past Lion? Then what? On the other hand, at least it is a comfort knowing it will import iMovie projects! Now all we have to do is somehow import our old FCP 7 projects into iMovie, then import… well, never mind.

The reality is that in any facility larger than one editor, there is a need for interoperability. This was very well supported in FCP 7 and earlier, and is a lot of its reason for success. Yes, some workflows are old- EDLs have been around seemingly forever, OMF is pretty antiquated, but they still are used everyday. The rest of a facility's equipment does not and cannot change overnight just to support a new editing package. The new editing package has to support the legacy, or loose that part of the market. It is certainly Apple's right to decide on their product and its desired market, and only time will tell if they made a good decision Hopefully they will add these needed workflow capabilities back, but until then, many are left without much choice - either hope for the best or start looking for a substitute to keep their business going. Remember, these are professionals who make their living using these tools. Yes, maybe FCP X will be a game changer in the future, but we work in the present, and at the present time, we have no solution from Apple. That solution has been removed from the market.

As an aside, I find it interesting the OP finds fault with supporting a "2007 workflow", but feels supporting a 100 year old workflow is professional. But yet in the closing remarks, comments that we should not post ideas of the last century (maybe other than film -- talk about last century) if we haven't used FCP X yet. There is not much reason to use it (or try it for that matter) if you know going in it will not be capable of doing the job. Anyone in business needing to make a profit would not waste their time. A profit!?! They must be professional by definition!

All this being said, it may be very slick for the one man bands and amateurs who want something more capable than iMovie. These people generally do not need the interoperability the larger facilities do. For these, it could be a game changer, and exactly the right choice. Maybe that's what Apple has in mind.

Glenn Kenny


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David Roth Weiss
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 6, 2011 at 4:19:45 am

[Glenn Kenny] " find it interesting the OP finds fault with supporting a "2007 workflow", but feels supporting a 100 year old workflow is professional. But yet in the closing remarks, comments that we should not post ideas of the last century (maybe other than film -- talk about last century) if we haven't used FCP X yet. There is not much reason to use it (or try it for that matter) if you know going in it will not be capable of doing the job. Anyone in business needing to make a profit would not waste their time. A profit!?! They must be professional by definition! "

Wow! I missed this one somehow. This one rings a bell Glenn, and you make many other good points above as well.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Andrew Rendell
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 4, 2011 at 4:08:47 pm

I don't think that this debate is about whether Apple have come up with a better/worse/different way of editing. It's about the fact that Apple seem to be pushing us into something that isn't ready yet.

I use FCP and Avid now (and I think it's quite likely that I'll be using FCPX as well at some point) and the choice of which one to use for a particular job is almost always down to how I'm going to interact with other professionals - what's the best workflow for ingesting, for example, multi-cameras, then getting the cut out to the online session, sound dub, colour grade, etc. If the production has chosen to use a particular, say, colorist, then they'll want to use some particular kit... usually there's not much of a difference between FCP and Avid, but sometimes that choice can make life a bit easier somewhere along the line (and making life a little bit easier translates into time and therefore money).

When I'm doing stuff for the web, I'll usually do everything myself and quite often the choice of kit is mine (I don't do much that goes onto YouTube, but I do a fair amount that goes onto company websites), but in terms of my income that's less than the broadcast stuff where the output/tape formats isn't my choice, so if a software package doesn't support what I have to deliver, it just pushes that choice out of the window.

To be honest, I'm not all that bothered about Apple's PR cockup, I go where the work takes me and I'll buy/learn whatever kit is necessary for me to stay in the game. Five or six years ago I thought that FCP was irrelevant to me and that Avid was where it was at; in the last year I've used FCP more than Avid; I wouldn't like to guess what I'll be using in five years time.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 5, 2011 at 6:13:54 pm

Well, I'm, back from vacation, and I see there are those who still don't get why people are so angry.
I'll make it easy for you, Alban:


[alban egger] "The one editor who never edited anythng less than 65mm ....ok I am generous....32mm footage step forward and float to the top as the real pro... if your life is around 32mm and nothing else, you are entitled to call yourself a pro..."

Now, there's a big, huge, fat lie! Yes, a lie: I'm calling you a liar. Liar, liar, pants on fire! Got it? YOU LIE, bud!
I work at a television station. I use Final Cut Pro to edit programs, commercials, interstitials and promotional announcements. I get paid for using Final Cut Pro, one of the many tools I use in my work. Just what on Earth gives you the right to say I'm not a professional, pal?



[alban egger] "If you don't see the game changing potential in FcpX (yes, potential, because I understand FcpX is far from being finished) then you probably didn't see it in the Nikon D90 either..."

I'm glad you recognize that FCP X is a work in progress. It may be fun for beta testers, but not for people who would have to use it every day.
This is the key issue: with the introduction of FCP X, Apple treated its existing user base as if it no longer existed, leaving an incomplete tool as the only recourse for purchase; at the moment, this tool is very bad. There are now something like 2 million FCP users who have been abandoned.

I'll try to keep this simple so even YOU can understand.

Let's say you bought a 2011 Audi A5, a very nice car indeed. Let's say you had a mishap on the road, and damaged one of the disc brakes. You need immediate service for your nice car! But since Audi recently introduced the 2012 A5, they will no longer service your 2011 model. You must buy a new 2012 A5, which no longer has power seats or climate control, and just a 4-speed transmission instead of a 6-speed transmission.

Would you be happy with Audi? Of course not. You no longer feel like a valued customer. Final Cut Pro users find themselves in a similar situation.

If they have a disc drive mishap, they can't go to the Apple web site for Final Cut Pro support -- all they find is FCP X support. They can no longer buy FCP 7, which works with all their existing equipment. They can't buy FCP X, because their delivery specifications demand an HD tape, and FCP X can't do that. They can't color correct before delivery, because FCP X can't do that.

Are they happy with Apple? Of course not. In the minds of those 2 million FCP users, they are no longer valued customers to Apple.

Why are so many people are angry with Apple? It's not about FCP X's Magnetic Timeline or the Auditioning or the Auto Analysis or the Compound Clips. They're worried about delivering future jobs, and the company that makes the software upon which they base their livelihood has given up on them. Apple treats them as if they no longer exist. That is the real reason for the anger.

Shame on you for brazenly and very ignorantly stating that the only professionals are those working in film.
Shame on you for not understanding the position of an individual whose livelihood has been placed in jeopardy.
Shame on you for your myopia. You only see the bells and whistles of new software, and not the more fundamental problem, the injustice Apple has wrought on its current users.

When you actually join the world of people who count on their tools to put bread on the table for their families, you may come to understand the anger people feel toward Apple.

Until then, have fun playing with your new toys, your DSLR and FCP X. I hope you find them amusing. Call us when you graduate from drinking milk to drinking schnapps.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Gary Pollard
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 6, 2011 at 12:21:09 am

Seems to me Alban was poking fun at the whole "I'm a pro and you're not" level on which some of this debate has been taking place.

You criticise him for the parody as being high-handed, which is fair enough even if arguably missing the point but then pull the "I'm a pro and you're not" again in the last couple of paragraphs.

I don't give a flying fig who is a pro and who is not. The software suits your purposes or it does not. For some people who get paid for their work, maybe even most, it does not. And Apple can rightly take its lumps for that.

It may work in some workflows, it is patently clear it won't in others, but it's banal to couch this debate in terms of "It's only good for amateurs/DSLR users/Youtubers/anyone who isn't me".

Which takes us back to Alban's original point.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Scott Sheriff
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 6, 2011 at 3:30:48 am

[alban egger] "if you have criticism on FcpX please use it for a few days before posting ideas of the last century."

Steve Jobs born February, 1955
Walter Murch born July, 1943
Randy Ubillos graduated from HS in 1980, probably born 1962-63

And I'm guessing that you're an idea from last century, if your over the age of ten.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Lance Bachelder
Re: You are all amateurs....
on Jul 6, 2011 at 5:43:58 pm

I've never worked in 32mm - is that PAL? We use 35mm here in US... at least we used to...

Lance Bachelder
Southern California



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