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David Mathis
Baselight
on Nov 11, 2015 at 9:59:46 pm

Anyone in here have experience with Baselight? I have thought about it, just expensive at this point. Hoping they make an edition for Final Cut Pro X, not sure if that will happen. I do like Resolve but want to expand my tool box a bit. Look forward to hearing from you guys.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Baselight
on Nov 11, 2015 at 10:43:30 pm

My Understanding is the old Baselight plugin was designed to work by transfering grade info from FCP7 into a Baselight. So it worked by being able to prep in an NLE but required a full Baselight system to complete and render the grades.

So if your workflow includes going to a post facility with Baselight then the plugin is useful.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Baselight
on Nov 11, 2015 at 11:06:21 pm

BLE views and renders now for free. The paid version can grade and interchange with Baselight proper.

The paid BLE toolset is significant: control surfaces, layer blending, tracking, keying, and Truelight are all in. The problem with BLE is it's a plugin. You're still trapped in your NLE, so workflow and grade management is a headache. It's also only available for Avid, FCP7 and Nuke.

David, what is it about Resolve you want to expand beyond? Have you looked into SCRATCH or Nucoda?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: Baselight
on Nov 11, 2015 at 11:29:53 pm

The BLE plug-in has worked "standalone" since it was released - as a plug-in within the NLE. But it can also interchange grades with a full system.

The trouble with making it work with FCPX is that at $1000, it's too pricey for a market that's only paying $300 for the host NLE. I have friends who are using it in conjunction with Avid Symphony and really like it, but the workflow is clunky compared with Resolve or a built-in color correction system.

As far as the full system, good colorists get outstanding results and there seem to be advantages in grading over how Resolve operates. I haven't run it so I can't say for sure, but I've sent some projects off to colorists working with it and the results are great. However, those same colorists would also do great work with Resolve.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Darren Roark
Re: Baselight
on Feb 1, 2016 at 9:12:35 pm

[Oliver Peters] "As far as the full system, good colorists get outstanding results and there seem to be advantages in grading over how Resolve operates. I haven't run it so I can't say for sure, but I've sent some projects off to colorists working with it and the results are great. However, those same colorists would also do great work with Resolve."

I'd really like to know more about the advantages of Lustre or Baselight over Resolve. As I don't always have control over what color finishing vendors my clients use I am trying understand what makes one system substantially better than another.

Not to take the lemming approach but Company 3 is a Resolve shop and have gone from being a commercial shop to doing a big percentage of the major studio features. If one of the other systems were that much better they could certainly afford to switch.

The round trip to Resolve and back to FCPX works well enough that it's a major time saver, I'm trying to gain an understanding so I can give informed advice.

And thank you Oliver for your well thought out reviews, you are one of the few people who actually write about post production systems without bias.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Baselight
on Feb 2, 2016 at 12:45:37 am

Thanks for the kind words.

There are actually quite a few "hero" systems being used in feature film, TV, and commercial production. These would include Resolve, Baselight, Pablo, Scratch, Lustre, Mystika, Scratch, Filmmaster, to name a few. A lot of time it simply comes down to the personal preference of various colorists. In fact, in the case of the top colorists, I have heard of post houses building a room just for them because of the business they can bring in. So a "Davinci shop" might install a Baselight if they hire a top person who insists on that.

I think they all have pros and cons. For instance, Peter Jackson's shop went to Mystika because of how it works with 3D. Company 3 is a "Resolve shop", while Light Iron is a "Quantel shop". Obviously each has handled quite a few top studio films. So I'm not sure you can say one is better than the other. Merely that the person making the decision prefers that one.

Regarding round trips, most top shops have more of an "old school" approach than you would think. Generally they want EDLs and original files. No VFX, a flattened timeline, and no speed effects. So while we argue a lot around here about things like interchange with XML, FCPXML, AAF, etc. the top dogs stick with the basics - reel, timecode, and a simple edit list.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Mathis
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 12:39:45 am

I have thought about Nucoda, not sure if it runs on OS X, have not tried Scratch. I do have Scratch Player, though.

The magnetic timeline, it's magnetic-o-matic!



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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 1:04:12 am

Hi David,
I used to grade in Resolve quite a lot until a while back. Ever since I bought color finale for FCPX I finish most of the grading within FCP. Am not sure if this was helpful in anyway, but I thought I'll put it out there for guys trying to color grade within FCPX. CF is awesome.

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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John Fishback
Re: Baselight
on Nov 15, 2015 at 10:14:43 pm

I, too, am very happy with Color Finale. While it doesn't have the breadth of Resolve's capabilities, it now adds tracking using Core Melt's SliceX (which uses Mocha tracking). It's great having all this capability inside FCPX.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 2:44:20 pm

[David Mathis] "I have thought about Nucoda, not sure if it runs on OS X, have not tried Scratch. I do have Scratch Player, though."

Nucoda is Windows-only.

SCRATCH Player made very, very little sense to me until I learned a little more about SCRATCH.

What are you looking for? Dailies? Grading? What's your use case?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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jake blackstone
Re: Baselight
on Jan 29, 2016 at 3:17:14 pm

Nucoda runs on Mac very well. The trick is, you must run it under the Bootcamp.
As far as the main advantage of BLE plugin over Resolve, is the absence of conform. You just open the Avid timeline and start grading. BLE grading operation, support for brilliant MC Color and Transport mapping (don't bother with Elements, it's pure garbage) and the best color science in the business makes it as close to the real thing as it's possible for a plugin. Filmlight constantly keeps upgrading it's capabilities, but yes, they have to rely on Avid underpinning. Free rendering and reviewing plugin is a welcome addition. Now anyone with an Avid can load BLE grades and render without a need to spend $1k. Anyone grading episodic programing, that uses Avid owes to themselves to at least give it a try. Here is a very good demonstration done by Josh Petok of the basic AVID/Daylight/BLE grading workflow.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 3:58:12 am

[Walter Soyka] " You're still trapped in your NLE, so workflow and grade management is a headache."

Workflow and grade management isn't sexy, but after grading nearly full time for a couple of year it's possibly what I miss the most when I'm grading inside of an NLE.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 2:51:19 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Workflow and grade management isn't sexy, but after grading nearly full time for a couple of year it's possibly what I miss the most when I'm grading inside of an NLE."

And then, even worse, some people want to do their grading in After Effects!

Given the workflow hurdles, I'm surprised at the number of people using Baselight Editions in Avid. That says something really nice about BLE, and something not so nice about Symphony.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 5:32:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Given the workflow hurdles, I'm surprised at the number of people using Baselight Editions in Avid"

There really aren't any workflow hurdles, per se, since it works as a plug-in. I wouldn't say it's a lot of users, though. So not as nice as Symphony, but I believe BLE runs "alongside" the NLE, much like Avid + Fusion. So not as poor as a "normal" plug-in, either

[Walter Soyka] "and something not so nice about Symphony"

While the color toolset in Symphony is certainly long-in-the-tooth, it's no slouch. You just can't do elaborate, multi-layered grades like you can in other systems. No shapes or tracking unless you do that as a separate effect, which is possible. However, it's perfect for TV series finishing. As a built-in tool, from a standpoint of workflow, there is simply no other current NLE with comparable capabilities, unless you are talking about Quantel (editor+grading) or if you cut in Resolve.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Mathis
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 6:00:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "
[Walter Soyka] "and something not so nice about Symphony"

While the color toolset in Symphony is certainly long-in-the-tooth, it's no slouch. You just can't do elaborate, multi-layered grades like you can in other systems. No shapes or tracking unless you do that as a separate effect, which is possible. However, it's perfect for TV series finishing. As a built-in tool, from a standpoint of workflow, there is simply no other current NLE with comparable capabilities, unless you are talking about Quantel (editor+grading) or if you cut in Resolve."


If editing does improve significantly in the next version of Resolve, going to move most of my workflow there. No doubt that 12 is better then 11, just needs some further refinement. I prefer nodes over layers but Resolve needs to make the nodes a bit easier to work with. Fusion is a joy to work with. Arranging, changing connects between nodes is much faster and easier with Fusion.

If cost were no object, I would move over to Linux. Of course that would mean giving up Final Cut Pro X, oh well.

The magnetic timeline, it's magnetic-o-matic!



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Michael Gissing
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 9:47:51 pm

I'm just finishing a feature doco on Resolve 12 and although I don't need a lot of the edit functionality I do like the access to keyframes (this doco has lots of stills moves) plus we have been doing abit of edit replacement of some placeholder archive so I have been doing dome basic editing. I find the toolset in 12 better and as a finishing tool it is fullfilling requirements.

To Olivers point about not having tracking shapes, I really can't imagine a grade without that facility and also I am more using the stabilizer in Resolve so this doco is the first one I have been able to happily stay entirely within the one tool for everything. I came close with Resolve 11.I can see things like the smart bins just getting better.

Baselight is fantastic but given the price point of Resolve (and I have a fully paid version) I can't justify the cost for documentary work.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Baselight
on Nov 13, 2015 at 2:43:10 am

[Michael Gissing] "To Olivers point about not having tracking shapes, I really can't imagine a grade without that facility"

A lot of episodic TV, especially non-scripted ("reality") TV gets graded in 4-8 hours for a 1/2 hr - 1 hr. show. In that situation, you don't go crazy with shape masks and this is where Symphony shines.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: Baselight
on Nov 13, 2015 at 3:32:19 am

[Oliver Peters] "A lot of episodic TV, especially non-scripted ("reality") TV gets graded in 4-8 hours for a 1/2 hr - 1 hr. show. In that situation, you don't go crazy with shape masks and this is where Symphony shines."

Typically I allow 16 hours grade per 1 hr doco so not to much time difference. I always use tracked shapes within that time with Resolve. The tracking is pretty good and very fast to track. Perhaps because I charge a job rate rather than hourly I would rather take the time and do a better job. I'll bet I am not different in price per finished minute.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Baselight
on Nov 13, 2015 at 12:32:49 pm

Just to be clear. You can do layers of grades and tracking and shape masks in Symphony. It just isn't as simple as in Resolve, because it can't be applied in a single application of a color correction effect on a clip. Symphony is one of the few NLEs with built-in paint and custom shape drawing.

In normal Symphony correction, a single application of color correction includes a primary and a color-qualified secondary level. That's per clip, per layer. Then, on top of that you can apply program-level correction, which can be applied to a clip, a range of clips or the whole timeline. This is within the color correction mode and can be combined with clip-level correction. So in Resolve terms, this would be similar to 4 nodes.

Then, in addition to all of that, you have spot correction, which is color correction applied as an effect. So the toolset is pretty comprehensive, but you have to know how to use it, because some of it isn't as intuitive as it needs to be.

The key factor is time, since you have the ability to use source-based correction. In theory, with a 4-cam multicam, 4 corrections (1 per camera) would grade the entire timline (assuming consistency). But the biggest time-saver is the lack of a need for a roundtrip, assuming it was cut on Media Composer to begin with.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Mathis
Re: Baselight
on Nov 13, 2015 at 4:33:55 pm

Thanks for posting Peter. After thinking it over, my plans are to stay with Resolve. Just noticed the new update and two things really make me happy. One, manual keyframes can be applied to power windows. The other will be support for Sapphire Builder, though I have heard that this requires an update to Sapphire. I think once Resolve becomes a more robust editing software I might leave the FCP X camp.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Baselight
on Nov 13, 2015 at 5:09:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The key factor is time, since you have the ability to use source-based correction. In theory, with a 4-cam multicam, 4 corrections (1 per camera) would grade the entire timline (assuming consistency). But the biggest time-saver is the lack of a need for a roundtrip, assuming it was cut on Media Composer to begin with."

It's been ages since I've cut anything on an Avid. How do you think Symphony source-side correction compares with Pr's master clip effect [link] workflow?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: Baselight
on Nov 13, 2015 at 5:23:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "It's been ages since I've cut anything on an Avid. How do you think Symphony source-side correction compares with Pr's master clip effect [link] workflow?"

Similar, but there's a key difference. The Premiere effect is a true source-side effect, so it changes the master clip, like FCP7 used to. This affects all timelines in which that clips appears. In Symphony it is only active within the one timeline where you are doing the grading. Pros and cons to each solution.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Baselight
on Nov 13, 2015 at 6:45:55 pm

Steve Hullfish has a good explanation of the announcement here:

http://www.provideocoalition.com/what-does-baselight-s-new-announcement-mea...

Here are some case studies:

http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/customers/case-studies/case-studies.php

This case study was cut and graded by a friend of mine using the Avid plug-in awhile back:

http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/customers/case-studies/badparents.php

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Baselight
on Nov 13, 2015 at 10:29:58 pm

Hang on. The entire Avid effects interface is an utter joke tho? the ludicrous nesting, arcane process, highlighting the pink/red keyframe icon in the monitor to be able to alter a number entry - isn't it an open industry joke at this point how Avid, particularly in its effects architecture, is built not to be understandable in order to support an invested clientele?

You'd almost swear Avid is in Quarkxpress territory.

http://ogallchoir.prosite.com/
producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Baselight
on Nov 14, 2015 at 12:14:03 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Hang on. The entire Avid effects interface is an utter joke tho?"

While I agree that the Avid effects interface is a bit convoluted, I would also add that I've created comps that would be completely impossible - or at the very least, extremely difficult - in FCP7, X, Premiere, etc. You just have to understand how to use it. Of course, for someone just starting out, it's hard to understand without some external training.

However, the exact same can be said for After Effects by folks who aren't comfortable with it.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Daniel Frome
Re: Baselight
on Nov 12, 2015 at 11:17:02 am

Baselight is awesome. We use it for some very high-end commercial work inside Media Composer. 99% of the time we can rival anything created in a standalone Davinci environment.


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