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David Roth Weiss
Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 23, 2015 at 9:22:34 pm
Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on Oct 23, 2015 at 11:09:10 pm

For the record, with the addition of Adobe Audition, editors using Premiere can edit down to the sample level of 1/48000th of a frame - FCP X also supports sub-frame audio editing, but at 1/100th of a frame. (***Oops, my Bad!!! As David H. Lawrence points out, I should have stated that Premiere on its own, without Audition, supports sub-frame audio editing down to 1/48000th of a frame)

Does that REALLY make a difference to most of you, or to most editors? The answer is maybe not, at least not until you really think hard about it.

At 1/48000th of a frame, you can select extraneous or unwanted noises in your tracks and simply erase them imperceptibly, without the need to fill with room tone. You'd have a tough time doing the same thing in X at a sample rate of just 100th of a frame.

However, Audition also has among it's powerful toolset, a "Repair Tool" similar to the one in Photoshop, which can delete a selection and fill the erased gap with information from surrounding samples. And, that's just one example of the power that the 1/48000th sample rate can give you.

In addition, Oliver Peters suggests there is apparently an issue in FCP X with sub-frame audio editing... He writes: "The odd thing that some folks have experienced is that it if you make the primary storyline an audio clip it can cause problems with accurate frame boundaries. Connected clips don't actually match up against each other, but instead leave gaps. However, these gaps don't seem to be visible during actual video playback."

Does the information above mean that FCP X is a toy, or that users are amateurs? Of course not... But, when you hear all the back and forth about why some users prefer some tools over FCP X for their audio capabilities, there's a lot more to discuss than just the virtues or lack of virtues of the magnetic timeline.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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David Lawrence
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 23, 2015 at 9:39:21 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "For the record, with the addition of Adobe Audition, editors using Premiere can edit down to the sample level of 1/48000th of a frame - FCP X also supports sub-frame audio editing, but at 1/100th of a frame."

Actually David, you can edit down to the sample in Premiere Pro too. Just toggle "Show Audio Time Units" in the sequence panel drop down. I do this so often I've assigned it a keyboard shortcut. ;)

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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 23, 2015 at 11:11:50 pm

[David Lawrence] "Actually David, you can edit down to the sample in Premiere Pro too. Just toggle "Show Audio Time Units" in the sequence panel drop down. I do this so often I've assigned it a keyboard shortcut. ;)"

Excellent info David...

For the record, my information came from Larry Jordan, who also seems to have missed that important point. I'll let him know ASAP.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 23, 2015 at 11:39:37 pm

Here's what I don't get with FCPX. It appears that the edit accuracy with audio is actually greater than 1/100th of a frame. For example, if you have a connected audio clip. Zoom the timeline in to the max and the playhead bar will nearly fill the window. The range of 1 frame. As you move the connected clip left of right you see it change by + or - .01. But, the clip isn't locked to the point where it changes subframes. You can move the audio to any point between two subframe numbers. So audio edit accuracy might be subframes, but sync/slipping audio seems to have a larger level of precision.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 23, 2015 at 11:48:59 pm

Some more interesting things with X. If you split (blade) a connected audio clip you can edit anywhere inside that frame (or so it seems). But when you make the next edit it has to be at least 1 full frame later, starting from the previous edit made at the subframe level. Again that edit can be within the frame, as long as it is at least a full frame later. Yet, you can still grab the edge of the edited clip and trim it at what appears to be a more precise amount than 1/100th of a frame.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:31:14 am

[Oliver Peters] " Yet, you can still grab the edge of the edited clip and trim it at what appears to be a more precise amount than 1/100th of a frame."

The amount is a sample. I have no idea where the 1/48000 of a frame came from, It's 1/48000 of a second if it's a 48k sample rate, 1/44100 of a second if it's 44.1 And X, just like Pr, can trim audio at that level of accuracy. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 23, 2015 at 11:44:45 pm

For the record, I just received a reply from Larry Jordan who wrote:

"Cool - an improvement I was not aware of.

Thanks for letting me know."

Larry


David Roth Weiss
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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David Lawrence
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 12:01:31 am

[David Roth Weiss] "For the record, I just received a reply from Larry Jordan who wrote:

"Cool - an improvement I was not aware of.

Thanks for letting me know."

Larry"



Sweet, thanks for passing the word along.

BTW, "Show Audio Time Units" isn't even new. You can do it in Premiere CS6 too.

Premiere is a deep program with lots of features so unless you're looking, you might miss this one. Did you know you can get sub-frame audio editing in FCP Legacy too?

I know plenty of people who don't use a DAW because they can do every thing they need in their NLE. Unless you need MIDI or some specialized plugins or routing, the right NLE might have you covered for sound too.

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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 12:14:56 am
Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on Oct 24, 2015 at 12:16:53 am

Yes David, I knew FCP Legacy had sub-frame audio editing, but nothing close to 1/48000th of a frame. At that level of granularity, as I mentioned earlier in reference to Audition, one can quickly and easily delete many extraneous sounds from tracks imperceptibly, without filling with room tone. That means an audio clean-up can go incredibly fast, at the very highest level of precision. That should be pretty exciting even for the most hardened of FCP X fans.

David Roth Weiss
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David Weiss Productions
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 1:39:30 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Oct 24, 2015 at 1:42:20 am

1/100th is timecode based. Timecode has 100 sub frames at 30fps. At 25 fps it is 1/80th. At 24 it will be slightly less. So ironically as the frame rate drops, using timecode subframes as edit boundaries gets coarser.

I can attest to the common occurrence of slicing audio down to the sample in post sound. It can be the difference when either cutting the 's' off the end of a word to remove a plural or slicing off an 's' and adding it to another word to make the plural. It sometimes matters to have the ability to trim a clip both top and tail to sample accuracy and then place it with sample accuracy to make it work.

And just in the interest of accuracy DRW is not correct in saying accuracy of 1/48000 of a frame as the sample rate of 48khz is per second, so at 25fps there are 1920 samples per frame and 2000 at 24fps. So the accuracy is of an order of magnitude of 20 times approx. For the most part 1/100th is often all you need. There is however, no technical reason why an NLE should not be able to edit sample accurate. It would be a design decision.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 1:53:29 am

[Michael Gissing] "And just in the interest of accuracy DRW is not correct in saying accuracy of 1/48000 of a frame as the sample rate of 48khz is per second, so at 25fps there are 1920 samples per frame and 2000 at 24fps. "

Thanks for offering the correction Michael, again my info came from Larry Jordan, and again I will let him know the accurate information so he does not pass misinformation along to masses of people in his webinars and his training materials.

David Roth Weiss
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Bret Williams
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 3:06:23 am

Ah, so at 1/100th of a frame that's the equivalent of editing at a 3000khz level. So it's not 4800 kHz but I think it's close enough, and X doesn't require some mode. Plus it seems that you can actually go beyond the 1/100th anyway. I think this ones busted.


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Bret Williams
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 2:59:44 am

I'm always amazed by what Larry doesn't know. I've edited one project in Premiere CC and I was aware of this. I found that accessing the sub frame mode was a complete PIA though and I'll take X's method any day. There has never been any audio I couldn't massage at 1/100th and Oliver you may be right. It just reports to the 100th, but seems you can adjust to anything. I think legacy could slip audio to the 1/1000th on version 1.0.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 5:28:31 am

[Bret Williams] " I found that accessing the sub frame mode was a complete PIA though and I'll take X's method any day."

It's just two clicks though (right click on the time ruler and select audio units)...

Shawn



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Audition
on Oct 24, 2015 at 5:37:01 am

What a bear toggling that on and off, huh Shawn?

Gosh, my mouse finger is getting a real workout just thinking about that difficult "PIA." I hope you get to take a break afterward.

David Roth Weiss
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:00:09 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:40:46 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Does the information above mean that FCP X is a toy, or that users are amateurs? Of course not...

Of course not. And when did you stop beating your wife? ;-)

In all seriousness, this thread redefines the term "splitting hairs". No matter the different atomic level of accuracy, which nobody is really sure of anyway, not having to switch modes to do subframe/sample accurate editing is actually quite nice. As I switch back and forth between X and Pr regularly, I think I'm allowed to say this.

EDIT: Forget the "nobody is really sure of" line above, if you have a 48k audio clip, you can trim/move audio by 1/48000 of a second (a sample) in both X and Premiere. Exactly the same functionality.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Mark Smith
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 11:52:32 am

I love these arguments about invisible things. While I understand that editors may be passionate about their tools and their preference for certain tools that enable their work, in the end no one watching lets say "Homeland" is thinking 'oh wow this episode that was cut on Premier is so awesome' .

Mark Smith
DP & wannabe editor


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Charlie Austin
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 3:38:31 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Oct 24, 2015 at 3:38:44 pm

[Mark Smith] "I love these arguments about invisible things"

:-) lol No desire to argument here, I just wanted to correct the inaccurate info on which this thread was based.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 6:17:03 pm

[Mark Smith] "in the end no one watching lets say "Homeland" is thinking 'oh wow this episode that was cut on Premier is so awesome' ."

The discussions aren't about whether or not the audience can tell what tools are being used though. The discussions are about the objective and subjective differences in the tools and how they can help or hinder our ability to quickly and easily get the job done within the budgetary and time constraints of the project.


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Mark Smith
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 25, 2015 at 11:08:42 am

I understand your point completely. coming from the camera side of the world we have the same arguments about our tools (cameras) and at the same time there is a visible difference in the end result from the camera choices we make., Not so with editing platforms, and I'm just musing about that.
in my own editing work, the little that I do, I use FCPX which I find speedy and efficient. Premiere might actually better or worse in some respects, I don't know because I don't use it. However if some one asked me to cut something but it was going to be in FCP legacy, I know I would put up an argunebt against that.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 4:18:57 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "For the record, with the addition of Adobe Audition, editors using Premiere can edit down to the sample level of 1/48000th of a frame - FCP X also supports sub-frame audio editing, but at 1/100th of a frame. (***Oops, my Bad!!! As David H. Lawrence points out, I should have stated that Premiere on its own, without Audition, supports sub-frame audio editing down to 1/48000th of a frame)"

David, in the interest of accuracy, would you consider another edit, pointing out that the statement above regarding FCP is incorrect? X and Pr both allow you to edit at the sample level.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 6:07:21 pm

I believe the entire misunderstanding for all concerned is by virtue of the fact that the industry refers to this feature as sub-frame audio editing, the alternative is editing at the full frame level, yet the sub-frame sample rate is not based on frames at all, but on samples per second.

So, both FCP X and Premiere support audio editing down to the sample level which is 1/48000th of a second at 48khz. However, if you read Apple's document on the subject below, you'll see that the scale is divided into 1/80th of a frame increments, which also adds to the confusion.

"For even more precise editing, you can zoom in to audio clips at the audio sample level. Audio samples show the audio waveform at a fraction of a second (for example, 1/48,000 for audio recorded at a sample rate of 48 kHz). Sample-accurate editing resolution is available only for connected audio clips (that is, audio clips not in the primary storyline) or compound clips that contain only audio.

Tip: For reference when working with video, you can view subframes (1/80 the duration of a video frame) in the timecode display of the Dashboard. In the General pane of Final Cut Pro preferences, choose the subframe option in the Time Display pop-up menu."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 6:22:20 pm

I'm not sure of the accuracy or origin of the term subframe, but it predates digital audio editing. I think it goes back to at least the Adams-Smith audio controllers in the 80s. There it related to actual subframes dividing a frame of timecode. The audio decks themselves were usually analog. Of course Media Composer has permitted 1/4 frame accuracy slipping in film projects, since that was the accuracy of 1 perf in a 35mm frame (4 perfs per frame).

I'm not in front of X right now, but can you actually zoom in to the sample level? I don't think you can. You might be able to edit at that precision, but you can't actually see the waveform at that precision. You can in Premiere Pro. In addition, if you make a subframe audio edit in X, you cannot make an adjacent edit until you are at least 1 frame later. In Premiere, you can make two subframe audio edits very close together to each other.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
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David Lawrence
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 6:35:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] "In Premiere, you can make two subframe audio edits very close together to each other."

In Premiere, you can edit audio at the sample level, i.e. you can make one sample audio edits.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 7:03:55 pm
Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on Oct 24, 2015 at 7:10:31 pm

[David Lawrence] "
In Premiere, you can edit audio at the sample level, i.e. you can make one sample audio edits.
"


You won't hear those 1 sample edits, but it's very cool to know that the capability is there to edit at the highest level of granularity right on the timeline.

No matter how you slice it, in any objective appraisal, this implementation is pretty much what you'd find on any editor's wishlist. In my opinion, it's the correct way to implement sub-frame audio editing.


David Roth Weiss
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David Weiss Productions
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 7:08:02 pm

Unfortunately, subframe audio edits in an NLE don't always translate correctly to DAWs and vice versa. So I would suggest they should be avoided unless you plan to finish your audio editing and mix entirely within the NLE. However, the Premiere to Audition direct link might do it correctly. Not sure on that.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 7:28:49 pm
Last Edited By David Lawrence on Oct 24, 2015 at 7:33:24 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Unfortunately, subframe audio edits in an NLE don't always translate correctly to DAWs and vice versa. So I would suggest they should be avoided unless you plan to finish your audio editing and mix entirely within the NLE. However, the Premiere to Audition direct link might do it correctly. Not sure on that."

I haven't had any problems or heard any complaints from my sound guy about the AAFs I send him out of Premiere for ProTools.

For me, the biggest issue is that when you select "Show Audio Time Units", Premiere lets you edit at the sample level on the video track as well as the audio track. This is problematic because a sub-frame video edit is meaningless. Nevertheless, the UI lets you do this and it can lead to unpredictable results in what you see vs what actually plays in the video track. I want to be careful when I use sample-level audio edits so I actually appreciate that I have to switch modes because it forces me to think about what I'm doing with audio in relation to video.

[David Roth Weiss] "You won't hear those 1 sample edits, but it's very cool to know that the capability is there to edit at the highest level of granularity right on the timeline. "

It's very cool. To be honest, my most common use of this feature is for syncing second source audio. The tools everyone uses (PluralEyes, or Premiere built-in sync) are okay, but they tend to be within a frame of accuracy. My standard practice is to zoom in and sync down to the sample. And yeah, it does make a difference.

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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 7:50:45 pm

Editing at zero-crossing points is the only way to achieve a perfect audio edit. While editing audio at the frame level can be fudged in many cases by adding cross dissolves, that's not granular enough for all audio edits, especially when editing music and audio with quiet passages.

David Roth Weiss
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David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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David Lawrence
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:02:14 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Editing at zero-crossing points is the only way to achieve a perfect audio edit. While editing audio at the frame level can be fudged in many cases by adding cross dissolves, that's not granular enough for all audio edits, especially when editing music and audio with quiet passages."

Especially true when editing dialogue at the level Michael describes above:

[Michael Gissing] "I can attest to the common occurrence of slicing audio down to the sample in post sound. It can be the difference when either cutting the 's' off the end of a word to remove a plural or slicing off an 's' and adding it to another word to make the plural. It sometimes matters to have the ability to trim a clip both top and tail to sample accuracy and then place it with sample accuracy to make it work."

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Oliver Peters
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:13:49 pm

[David Lawrence] "I haven't had any problems or heard any complaints from my sound guy about the AAFs I send him out of Premiere for ProTools."

So far I've only sent Premiere Pro sound to Logic Pro X and not Pro Tools. That was a disaster using either Premiere or Audition. I ended up doing the dialogue clean-up in Premiere and sent the mixer a baked track to embellish and add music.

- Oliver

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David Lawrence
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:42:52 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So far I've only sent Premiere Pro sound to Logic Pro X and not Pro Tools. That was a disaster using either Premiere or Audition. I ended up doing the dialogue clean-up in Premiere and sent the mixer a baked track to embellish and add music."

AAF in Premiere was badly broken before the 2015 release. If you were using an earlier version try again. Good chance you'll be pleasantly surprised.

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Oliver Peters
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:49:33 pm

[David Lawrence] "If you were using an earlier version try again. Good chance you'll be pleasantly surprised.
"


This was recently and with the most current versions of each. The problem with AAF interchange, when it comes to audio is that it is tweaked to work best with Pro Tools. That means it may or may not cause problems in other apps that claim AAF compliance.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 9:44:39 pm

[David Lawrence] "AAF in Premiere was badly broken before the 2015 release."

time to confess David. I've long suspected you fell to the dark side, and I'm pretty sure your screenshot just confirmed it. post CS6 GUI my man.

Admit your sin. You are on CC Premiere.

Chris Petit wrote a confessional, I wrote a confessional, and I think you, David Lawrence, are maybe due a confessional. guitar cue.







http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 25, 2015 at 2:43:28 am
Last Edited By David Lawrence on Oct 25, 2015 at 2:45:47 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Admit your sin. You are on CC Premiere.

Chris Petit wrote a confessional, I wrote a confessional, and I think you, David Lawrence, are maybe due a confessional. guitar cue."


LOL!

Ah brother Aindreas, a lot has happened over the past couple months. I've crossed over to the dark side in more ways than one. I refer you to this thread in the After Effects forum, where you can read a little bit about what I'm currently up to. Go ahead, I'll wait. ;)

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/2/1066289

This is the most fun, interesting, and innovative project I've been on since my Lucasfilm days. And that's saying a lot. On top of that, I'm working with two of my favorite colleagues/people. We all met at Lucasfilm and have been collaborating off and on for decades. With this project, it totally feels like the band's back together! Once again we're inventing the future - pushing hardware, software, and workflow as hard as we possible can. I'm using everything I can get my hands on. I'm having a blast!

Just finished a post-production report for the first round of demos. We're waiting to find out if we get a green light for the big phase 2 demo we have planned. Please wish us luck!

I promise when I can say more, I'll not only write a full confessional, but if Timmy likes, maybe a full article on what we're doing (assuming the mothership lets me talk about it). I can't wait to tell you more! :D

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Tim Wilson
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 25, 2015 at 9:39:12 am
Last Edited By Tim Wilson on Oct 25, 2015 at 9:47:06 am

[David Lawrence] "t if Timmy likes, maybe a full article"

Timmy likes!!!!

Let me know what I can do to facilitate this. Maybe I could rewrite the article as if it was me, so that nobody at the mothership would know what we're really talking about.


[David Lawrence] "I refer you to this thread in the After Effects forum, where you can read a little bit about what I'm currently up to. Go ahead, I'll wait. ;)

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/2/1066289"



Stupdendous thread, as some of the COW's big throbbing brains stride across the land like the giants they are.


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David Lawrence
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 26, 2015 at 1:39:02 am

[Tim Wilson] "Timmy likes!!!!"

Excellent! Will keep you posted as we get further along. It's still early and we're still figuring things out. Fingers crossed...


[Tim Wilson] "Stupdendous thread, as some of the COW's big throbbing brains stride across the land like the giants they are."

Keep your eye on the After Effect forum because Walter S. and I are going in deep. Here's another thread that might interest anyone who uses Dynamic Link between Premiere and After Effects and has ever wondered WTF happened to my dissolves?

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/2/1067127

Walter's dropping hardcore science and I for one am learning a ton. It's the COW at it's best and why I enjoy this place so much. Stand by for more...

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David Lawrence
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Tim Wilson
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 26, 2015 at 7:09:03 am

[David Lawrence] "Walter's dropping hardcore science and I for one am learning a ton. It's the COW at it's best and why I enjoy this place so much. Stand by for more..."





(I may have to add this to that thread too.)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 24, 2015 at 6:47:23 pm
Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on Oct 24, 2015 at 6:51:40 pm

Excellent addition Oliver. It just goes to show that our NLEs have deep foundations that are not always as they can appear at first glance, even for old pros. And, after really looking carefully, it's easy to see why this is so easily misconstrued.

And, now that we've all collaborated to straighten this all out, I would have to say in summary that, currently Adobe's implementation is in fact the better and more accurate approach to sub-frame audio editing that better emulates the sub-frame editing capabilities of a DAW. This doesn't mean that FCP X us for amateurs, or that editors using X can't produce excellent work, including audio editing and mixing inside FCP X, only that in a fair comparison of both apps, at this point Adobe has the more advanced implementation of audio editing. To be fair, it's also more expensive... But, also to be fair, with that added expense, the user also gets access to an even better audio editor (Audition), and the entire suite of additional apps as well.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Peter Gruden
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 26, 2015 at 9:50:01 pm

Premiere Pro is indeed better for sample accurate audio editing, but the difference is mostly just the ability to zoom in enough which FCPX cannot do currently.

DRW also mentioned one important thing, editing at zero crossing points, which is not possible without sample accurate editing.
If audio is cut in the middle of a waveform, a click will be introduced. This is specially noticeable with low frequency signals. Audio applications can insert short fade on each cut to avoid this, or can cut only at zero crossing points automatically. In video applications one has to do it manually, using fades and keyframes, which is very slow.

In defense of Larry Jordan, I met people teaching FCP that did not understand what is 32 bit fp audio and how to properly control audio levels. Even some questions in Apple FCP Certification exams were simply wrong. Now that audio in video apps has come a long way, it helps to go back to audio basics. This forum is quite incredible in its coverage.



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Michael Gissing
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 26, 2015 at 10:55:07 pm

[Peter Grunden] " Audio applications can insert short fade on each cut to avoid this, or can cut only at zero crossing points automatically."

Yes Fairlight definitely does this. I think it does 8 sample ramps. This means an edit can be placed on any sample and no clicks. Regardless of what people think is enough accuracy for an offline, if a tool is going to be used as a total finishing tool then sample accurate non click edits are important and have been part of DAWs for over 20 years so it is not like it is a difficult problem that needs R&D to develop.

If it isn't in the software then the NLE dev team don't think it is important or the NLE is not really designed to be a finishing tool. To say that 100th of a frame is enough tells me that Apple probably think that is enough and mostly that is true. However it does leave them open to the interpretation that they are not aiming to be the perfect finishing tool, just close enough. And for the money they charge for the software I can't fault that logic. But for users to claim it is designed to be a finishing tool, well expect to have dissenters.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Oct 27, 2015 at 1:45:40 am

[Michael Gissing] "To say that 100th of a frame is enough tells me that Apple probably think that is enough and mostly that is true. However it does leave them open to the interpretation that they are not aiming to be the perfect finishing tool, just close enough. And for the money they charge for the software I can't fault that logic. But for users to claim it is designed to be a finishing tool, well expect to have dissenters."

Again, whether it comes from apple or not, the 1/100 number is wrong, or applies to something else. You can trim audio a sample at a time, and do a 3 sample fade if you want in FCP X. As has been pointed out, Pr can zoom in closer at this point. But I can certainly cut on a zero crossing in X, I do it all the time.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Morgan Reese
Re: Sub-frame Audio editing - FCP X vs Premiere
on Nov 30, 2015 at 5:14:34 pm

I'm having the same issue as Oliver Peters in that I can blade on any subframe but the next one has to be a frame away. I believe in Pr you can select 1 subframe so you can't in X? I was able to make a 1 subframe range and keyframe it to zero in between but I would like to blade wherever I want in and out and slip to remove unwanted audio. Am I missing something?

tia



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