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Herb Sevush
Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 1:57:49 pm

In accordance with Shane Ross’s desire that we not muck up the FCP-X for documentaries thread with a side discussion I’m starting this thread with a little cross banter that happened on that thread between Bill and Myself. Feel free to join in –

Bill Davis - For many reasons. I still think the basic truth is do you want to hang on to where editing ideas have traditionally been - or do you see value in where those ideas might be going?

Herb Sevush - There are many places where editing is "going" and X represents a slice of that - but not the entirety of it, not by a long shot.

Bill Davis -
OK Herb, I'll play. Hit me with the top few aspects of Premiere Pro that have changed edit workflow for you in the last 3 years. I'm ready to learn about how they have altered their approach to re-imagine how editing should be improved for the current, almost exclusively file-based era. I'm ready to learn.


Well I suggest that first you need to learn that the field of video editing is not limited to the 3 A’s, so any sense of “where editing ideas might be going” has to allow for the entire breadth of tools available, even those tools that are not (gasp) available on OSX. Vegas (whose parentage was an Audio DAW which led to some unique approaches to video editing), Edius, Resolve, and Lightworks are all actively improving and innovating so anyone trying to get a sense of where things are going would have to have some knowledge of these tools as well as the 3A’s. While I have a much broader sense of the field than you, with your FCP blinders on, I am also not equipped to make such a complete survey, which is why I don’t make the kind of broad based pronouncements you seem to be so fond of.

Secondly I have only been back on Ppro for a little over a year, so I will have to limit my remarks to that time. However here is what I as the “new ideas” coming from Adobe.

Creative Cloud
– similar to the polarizing effect of the magnetic timeline this new idea has a lot of haters, however indisputably CC has changed the rate of change in developing video applications. Much as I don’t like the inability to get off the train, I do appreciate how fast I’m moving down the tracks. Every 6 months or so I get amazing new tools thrown at me by Adobe, to the point where it’s a major problem keeping up with the pace. Full fledged grading system within the application, followed by morph cut, followed by the ability to export media at any length with speed changes made on the fly, followed by the ability to have the software automatically recut a piece of music to a desired length, followed by a tool that will create an automated voice over from supplied text. While any one of these tools might be no more useful that a 3D text tool, the speed, rapidity and variety of the appearance of these enhancements supplies the very sort of buzz that is so often heard by X proponents – gee this is making editing fun again.

Adobe Anywhere – This is one of the places editing is going. Virtual teams. I’m supervising my current team from an office 60 miles north of NYC. I have one editor in San Fran, another in NYC, my GFX team is in Boston, my VO guy is in Las Vegas and my Producers are in Boston. Currently we use Kollaborate as an on-line screening site and Fed-Ex to distribute large packets of media. Someday soon the media will be centralized and all collaboration real time and its ideas like Adobe Anywhere that are going to get me there.

Dynamic Link. This is an ongoing old/new idea. There is a Yin Yang between making an NLE all inclusive vs the idea of specific tools for specific fields. Adobe is letting you have your cake and devour it at the same time. Greater ability within Ppro, in audio, EFX and grading – as well as ease of roudtripping to ever improving Audio (Audition) EFX (AE)Graphics (Photoshop) and Grading (Speed Grade) stand alone tools.

Infinite Customization of the UI
– this seems to be the goal for Ppro. Do you use one monitor, well here’s a package of setups for that, two monitors, here’s a package of setups for that, three monitors – go ahead knock yourself out. Do you like lots of tool specific buttons – well here they are. Do you hate most tool buttons – well there they go. Mapable shortcut keys, yes. Custom timeline track layouts, yes. Do I want even more ability to customize – yes, like a junkie, I’m always wanting to up my dose of options. The one thing I won’t go back to is one size fit’s all – we are all snowflakes my children and should demand to be treated as such.

So that’s where I, with my limited knowledge of the field, see video editing going – an ever increasing rate of change in my tool set, an ability to create virtual real time teams through the internet, an ever increasing ability to do everything within an application simultaneous to an ever expanding roster of linked applications, and an ever more customizable way of working within an application specific to the way I’m working on a given day.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Neil Goodman
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 2:39:29 pm

My fav PPRO workflow enhancer is the ability to pancake timelines. Cant do that in FCPX and thats one place where PPRO excels above the others. Its doable in Avid in a different form but adobes implementation is dope.

Also, they were really the FIRST to have a edit anything, any codec, frame rate, etc in one timeline - which is very beneficial to file based workflows.

IMO the only thing FCPX did to "change the workflow" for the future is implement their lame timeline which is obviously still up for debate.

Metadata is nothing new, key-wording and search/filtering is available in the other NLE's - they just dont call it key-wording.


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Steve Connor
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 2:46:13 pm

[Neil Goodman] "My fav PPRO workflow enhancer is the ability to pancake timelines. Cant do that in FCPX and thats one place where PPRO excels above the others. Its doable in Avid in a different form but adobes implementation is dope.
"


Agreed, FCPX really needs the ability to edit from other projects. Also tilde key to fullscreen your currently selected window is extremely useful and the Lumetri Colour panel is a great first step to having Speedgrade built directly into PPro.


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James Ewart
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 11:38:31 am

[Steve Connor] "[Neil Goodman] "My fav PPRO workflow enhancer is the ability to pancake timelines. Cant do that in FCPX and thats one place where PPRO excels above the others. Its doable in Avid in a different form but adobes implementation is dope.
""


Seconded. It's a pain in the back of the trousers having to tab backwards and forwards through timelines and not be able to have two open at the same time.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 1:55:14 am

[Neil Goodman] "IMO the only thing FCPX did to "change the workflow" for the future is implement their lame timeline which is obviously still up for debate. "

Filmstrip browsing is huge. Add to that skimming and I find my shots faster than I every have with any other program. This is more critical for people who condense hours and hours of footage down to minutes.

"Lame timeline"? Really? I thought we were passed that kind of crap.


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James Ewart
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 11:36:51 am

Out of interest does PP not care at all what codec you put in the Timeline or does it perform better if stuff is transcoded to Pro Res?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 1:00:45 pm

"Out of interest does PP not care at all what codec you put in the Timeline or does it perform better if stuff is transcoded to Pro Res?"

The PPro timeline codec selection only affects the render file format for previews. In general, I've found that PPro likes media that is ProRes, MPEG2, AVC-Intra and Avid DNxHD.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 3:34:51 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Oct 1, 2015 at 5:33:19 pm

[Oliver Peters] ""Out of interest does PP not care at all what codec you put in the Timeline or does it perform better if stuff is transcoded to Pro Res?"

The PPro timeline codec selection only affects the render file format for previews. In general, I've found that PPro likes media that is ProRes, MPEG2, AVC-Intra and Avid DNxHD."


How is Cineform on the Mac side? I've found that it performs about the same as ProRes or DNxHD on my Windows machines.

EDIT: On the Premiere Pro timeline, of course.

Shawn



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Shane Ross
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 4:27:51 pm

[James Ewart] "Out of interest does PP not care at all what codec you put in the Timeline or does it perform better if stuff is transcoded to Pro Res?"

There are a lot of formats it works with natively, but even people at Adobe (Al Mooney, for example) says that any NLE has issues playing back H.264, so it's best to transcode. AVCHD is an H.264 variant, and GoPro is H.264 in an MP4 container... So while they CLAIM true native editing, there is a point where that isn't possible.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Tony West
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 2:55:24 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Adobe Anywhere – This is one of the places editing is going. Virtual teams. I’m supervising my current team from an office 60 miles north of NYC."

Yes, this is where I see editing going also, but not to NY, to some country where the rate is a lot lower.

"We don't need you anymore. We got (fill in the blank) over there in India cutting for a third."

Too cynical? : ))


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 3:07:35 pm

[Tony West] "Yes, this is where I see editing going also, but not to NY, to some country where the rate is a lot lower."

I actually don't see that as prevalent. If the servers exist in outside country but media is shot in US or similar, then upload bandwidth, time and cost may make it less appealing. If servers exist in US, then Internet across oceans is either a) very expensive b) low bandwidth and not suitable c) possibly both.



[Tony West] ""We don't need you anymore. We got (fill in the blank) over there in India cutting for a third."

Too cynical? : ))"


Yes, but I am from the Northeast (NY/NJ) so I'm down with it.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 3:36:25 pm

In support of Dennis' points above, a few years ago I did an animation project, working for a company in the US, with the producer and editor in the Central African Republic (Bangui). The collaboration went quite well, considering that the producer's native language was French, and the editor's was Sango.

The glitches all occured due to the lack of a fast connection in Bangui, frequent power outages there, and the fact that the final delivery had to be sent on a USB drive from New Hampshire to Bangui, CAR. The producer told me that even sending the drive UPS, the arrival date would fall somewhere between a week and a couple of months! Luckily it was a week and a half. Even our Skype communications had to be audio only, due to the lack of bandwidth. It was a nail-biter.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 2:41:37 pm

Direct TV post guy Mark Bach in his presentation in the FCP X Suite at NAB surprised a lot of us when he talked about how they do their audio post by cutting all day - then every night sending the fresh files to Madrid, Spain where the sound editor starts work when the LA video team is going to bed. The next morning, the files with audio are returned. 24 hours of productivity - and nobody loses any sleep. Sign of the future?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 5:00:45 pm

[Tony West] "[Herb Sevush] "Adobe Anywhere – This is one of the places editing is going. Virtual teams. I’m supervising my current team from an office 60 miles north of NYC."

Yes, this is where I see editing going also, but not to NY, to some country where the rate is a lot lower.

"We don't need you anymore. We got (fill in the blank) over there in India cutting for a third."

Too cynical? : ))"


Maybe not, racing to the bottom for the least expensive labor seems to be the rage in every industry. Luckily, the case can still be made that differences in infrastructure and timezones can make sourcing talent "locally" more economical than sending work halfway around the world. Then again, there are a lot of really talented folks south of the border who don't have high living expenses either. :-)

Shawn



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Shane Ross
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 5:47:22 pm

Editing is going into so many different places, that it's good to have many diverse tools that work for different situations. It used to be that production was only done on films...features and shorts, and news reels. Then TV came along, and then film and TV dominated for decades.

But now? Wedding, corporate, realty...special interest. Online, but with MANY different sorts of online video...GIFs, VINE, Instagram....comedy shorts, documentary, sport, watching people play video games... and then interactive videos. The variety of video production is staggering, and not one NLE does what all need.

Editing is going everywhere...and the tools need to adapt to fit the needs. Just like we have the sledge hammer, claw hammer, ball peen hammer, framing hammer, tack hammer, mallet...we need different tools to complete different tasks. Not all are suited for the given task, but they can work. Or, there might be some features that are GREAT for the task, while other features work fine...just like the features in another NLE...but an editor might prefer them over the other NLE.

Sorry, but I've VERY tired of "THIS is the wave of the future! Get on or fall behind!" That's total BS. It works for YOU...it solves a LOT of workflow issues YOU needed solving...it sped up YOUR process. Because it's good for YOU, doesn't mean it good for ALL. Some of us are much faster with other sets of tools. And some of those tools are adding functionality to work with more current cameras and formats, allowing us to KEEP using those tools, because they still work great. This attitude of poo-pooing others because we like using tools that still do the job...even though they are old...saying "you are stuck in the past"....I'm sick of that.

You are tasked with building a house. Use whatever hammer you want as long as it does the job. Sure, you can say "my hammer has a claw so I can easily remove old nails, or fix a mistake I made in placing the nail there," but to laugh at someone because they DON'T have a claw to remove the nail, but instead have a separate little mini-crowbar tool to do the same thing...who cares? The nail gets removed...the house gets made.

I don't use FCX for personal preference...it doesn't solve any issues I am currently having in post. OK, it does solve a couple (working with stills sucks in Avid...and working with native footage does in fact speed things up)...but those are solutions I also have in Adobe PPro. I still keep my eyes on the other apps, as you can see by me posting here, and in the TECHNIQUES forum, and the Adobe forums.

I do like the friendly discussions "well the magnetic timeline is great for me because..." or "stacked timelines save me so much time...." and "Without roles, I don't know what'd I'd do!" CONSTRUCTIVE conversation. Convince me...or rather...show me what feature you rely on in your NLE that makes it your NLE of choice...how does that feature save you time and frustration. And not "Man, that magnetic timeline sucks arse...I don't know WHO in their RIGHT MIND can use that." That's not helpful. That's a political debate, and none of us like politicians who say "that person sucks." WE prefer people to say "vote for me because I'll do this!"


I just did a memorial video for a friend, and I used Adobe PPro...because it consisted of about 400 stills, and 6 video sources of varying types...and I just imported and started editing. Moves on the stills was easy and smooth. And resizing the videos was great and clean...some 640x360, some even lower quality, but a 720p timeline. Resized just right...the stills looked great. The client was happy, and the 8 minute video only took me 8 hours to do...even with the 6 revisions we did. If I had to use Avid for that...I'd have taken 3x as long and my frustration level would have been through the roof!

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 12:22:51 pm

Shane, this is a great post. I am up in NYC this week for Advertising Week, and if you believe what the various panels and speakers are saying that creation of content, branded content or "native content" (a new term for me) will continue to race forward and that means editing, in all it's various forms, will race along with it. Where editing is going is up to the individual user and I don't feel one "A" is going to have it all. There simply is too much work to be done. It's a great time to be an editor, in my humble opinion.

Personally, I am a one-man-band and can't imagine having multiple editors working on a project with me (except for assistants of course. I would love to hear some other editor comments on this multiple editor workflow, perhaps in a separate thread), so Everywhere and Anywhere don't carry much weight. Ownership of the software matters to me, so Avid and especially Adobe's subscription models make me wary. Speed and the ability to be really creative really fast matters for my agency clients is very important to me as well. FCP7, MC and Pr are simply slower and more restrictive (to me personally) so are down in my list of preferred editing systems. X fits the bill for me, personally. Cut on Premiere? Sure if that's the only option a production company can offer but I will let them know that my "personal" choice is something different (although I have persuaded a couple to add X). These are all personal choices. I look into this forum less than I used to but it seems to be the same 30 people (me included) arguing the same old points from four years ago, and not one thread has changed my personal opinions. Those changes are only done with hands on experience in your own personal workflow. Feature lists don't change perspectives either. The choices we make on an editor are all very personal and one that a feature list of any product won't change.

sw

[Shane Ross] "I just did a memorial video for a friend, and I used Adobe PPro...because it consisted of about 400 stills, and 6 video sources of varying types...and I just imported and started editing."

Sadly, I had to do the same thing for a close friend in February, and X worked perfectly for it. Just another personal choice.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 1:16:33 pm

" I would love to hear some other editor comments on this multiple editor workflow, perhaps in a separate thread), so Everywhere and Anywhere don't carry much weight."

I've worked in two shared environments - one Avid Unity-based and the other using FCP7 with FC Server and a SAN. These were small situations with 4 suites in each case. I also routinely work at a TV affiliate where all rooms are connected to a SAN and they all use PPro now. The Avid set-up was for true collaboration on a TV series while the other two were/are simply to make it easy to move from one room to another based on scheduling. I've done some other one-off jobs in shared suites - again, those were more for centralized storage than project sharing.

In the Avid situation, this was true project sharing where different editors were working on various stages of 20+ episodes in a TV season. Since segments of the shows were being shifted from one episode to another and since one editor would often be called upon to recut a segment started by another editor, there was every combination of sharing imaginable. This is a pretty common "reality TV" approach. So two important factors - one, not to get too wrapped up with who cut something because it would likely get revised a few times by others before air - and two, be careful that everyone was using the same conventions within the project to avoid confusion. In this type of set-up, NOTHING YET has equaled the Avid project sharing solution. So I'm very curious to see how Adobe Anywhere progresses.

I do think that easy collaboration over the net is a big future for editing - even for one man bands.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 4:36:19 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Personally, I am a one-man-band and can't imagine having multiple editors working on a project with me (except for assistants of course. I would love to hear some other editor comments on this multiple editor workflow, perhaps in a separate thread),"

I work on documentaries and reality shows in which 4-6 editors might be working on a single episode. Typically one per Act, or each editor might do two acts, depending on the schedule. We all work in the same project file, but use our own CUTS bins to store media. But we do open and share the same FOOTAGE bins and MUSIC bins and SFX bins. Opening the exact same bins. The first person to open the bin "owns" it, meaning they can make changes. Any one who opens it after this, can open the same bin, but it's locked, and they can't make changes. Well, they CAN, but when you close the bin, the changes you made go away.

This is very useful when we all need access to the same footage, same music...and the Assistant Editors only need to update one bin in the project when new footage comes in, instead of in FCP workflows, needing to update every bin on every computer (as with FCP, you copy the project locally and work from that, rather than running it from a server, and two people cannot share a project).

And as Oliver mentioned, we all have to conform to a single style of cutting...we need to cut in a way that's seamless...so that it looks like every act was cut by the same person. No small task, I tell you. The lead editor sets the style, and the pacing, and you need to mimic that. Often the lead editor will go over your cuts and tweak them so they conform to the show style, and all appear to have the same style and pacing.

Working with multiple editors with FCP Classic, or Premiere, or FCX is possible, for sure. But it's done very differently. And editors have to be more aware of the technical aspects of their project, where media is stored, and pay more attention to details about getting new footage and saving their cuts and getting those cuts to the other editors. Unlike Avid where you can just cut and not really need to think about it.

And we don't use ANYWHERE or EVERYWHERE for this...but you do need a specific server type to support shared projects. Like Avid ISIS or Facilis Terrablock.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Tony West
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 2:33:03 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Then again, there are a lot of really talented folks south of the border who don't have high living expenses either. :-)
"


I remember doing a job for the Post Office about 15 years or so ago in my state, and they had these cameras set up on the lines zoomed in on the mail so that some people in a southern state that worked cheaper (as they tend to do down there) could read the zip codes and type in the info.

They didn't leave the country, and I don't know how much they saved by doing it. Totally different industry, but it just kind of reminds me of that.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 3:46:13 pm

[Tony West] "I remember doing a job for the Post Office about 15 years or so ago in my state, and they had these cameras set up on the lines zoomed in on the mail so that some people in a southern state that worked cheaper (as they tend to do down there) could read the zip codes and type in the info.

They didn't leave the country, and I don't know how much they saved by doing it. Totally different industry, but it just kind of reminds me of that."


Wow, I didn't know about that. I think that's the new reality for nearly every industry though. Jobs that can be done remotely, will probably be sent to the least expensive workers with the most acceptable output.

Shawn



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James Culbertson
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 5:29:16 pm

Editors will continue to tell stories just as they always have... some better than others. Which editing app they use isn't entirely irrelevant, but is 99% personal preference at this point. Everything else is just sound and fury. How about "FCPX sound and fury" as a name for this forum?


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Shawn Miller
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 5:51:02 pm

[James Culbertson] "Editors will continue to tell stories just as they always have... some better than others. Which editing app they use isn't entirely irrelevant, but is 99% personal preference at this point. Everything else is just sound and fury."

Maybe, but Bill did say...

[Bill Davis] ...Hit me with the top few aspects of Premiere Pro that have changed edit workflow for you in the last 3 years. I'm ready to learn about how they have altered their approach to re-imagine how editing should be improved for the current, almost exclusively file-based era. I'm ready to learn."

Shawn



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 6:32:57 pm

Where is editing going...

In terms of NLEs I think it's pretty clear what each of the Big A's are bringing to the table and editors just need to pick whatever they think works best for them (it might be one, it might be all, it might change project to project).

In terms of editing as a profession I think there will be continued expansion but not really wholesale change in terms of the new driving out the existing. For example, we all know TV as a distribution medium is facing stiff competition from streaming services like Amazon, Hulu and Netflix, but from an editing perspective it doesn't really matter as the content, regardless of distribution platform, still has to be cut. I'm meeting more and more 'TV editors' that are being asked to cut original content for Amazon or Hulu (on Avid) because they have the skills/experience cutting the type content those companies are looking for.

I know a place that's cutting everything from TV pilots to branded content for the web to original content for SnapChat and they are using PPro. Sure, with SnapChat you have to deal with vertical video, but besides that the only real difference between "this is going to the web" and "this is going to broadcast" is in the final delivery requirements.


With regards to not everyone being local for post, I think it's inevitable as the tech barriers keep getting smaller and smaller. I know some editors that routinely work with companies based out of the east coast. There is something to be said for getting face time, but not all projects/people need that.

With regards to something nifty about PPro (unfortunately this goes further back than Bills 3-year time span), the multicam in the PPro was the first of the Three A's to treat multicam as a nest/container instead of just creating whole new clips. This is a way more flexible way to work as you can make adjustments, add angles, etc., without having to recreate all new multicam clips. I'll also 'second' the mention of pancake editing. Yes, you could do it in FCP Legend, but the windows there were much harder to manage so I rarely did the pancake back then.

As I mentioned in another thread, for a current project I made one sequence for all my broll selects (about it's 12hrs long) and I organized it via markers (red extended markers to highlight entire events/dates and then green markers to highlight specific people/places/things). I keep that broll sequence on top of my editing sequence and I have a big Markers panel open in my second monitor to quickly keyword search for things. Given the duration of the sequence I'm pleasantly surprised how snappy it still is on my 2009 MacPro (it's all GOP camera media, no transcoding to ProRes or anything like that).


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 10:59:57 pm

Part of these discussions inevitably compare the FCPX trackless UI to tracks in the context of Avid, Premiere Pro or FCP 7. I would point out that other approaches have been used in the past. For example, Quantel Harry used a vertical filmstrip metaphor where composites were collapsed under a single clip. Same with audio. Although track-like, the original Lightworks interface also used a different approach than standard track UIs. The most radically different UI and the most FCPX-like is probably the original Jaleo/Mistika UIs. So variations have been with us for a long time. Not much new with FCPX from that standpoint.

But more to the point - where is editing going...

I agree with the thoughts about team solutions. Since Adobe is releasing a smaller, less-hardware-dependent version of Anywhere, it might be coming to you sooner than you think. I think touch support is another area that will be mined to a greater extent. Maybe something very solid on an iPad Pro.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 1:02:24 am

First time I saw the magnetic timeline it reminded me of the Casablanca. How do I even remember the name of that monstrosity?


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Shawn Miller
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 1:31:56 am

[Bret Williams] "First time I saw the magnetic timeline it reminded me of the Casablanca. How do I even remember the name of that monstrosity?"

PTSD? :-)

Shawn



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Chris Harlan
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 4:41:20 am

The Montage also had a particularly unique interface. It was a film metaphor instead of the video source/record metaphor. One monitor. There was no difference between timelines and bins; bins were timelines and timelines were bins. And, they rotated. There were seven, as I recall, and you pasted from bin/timeline to bin/timeline. Sounds crazy now, but back ten it was a Godsend.


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Shane Butler
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 1:41:44 am

Exactly. The tools don't matter. It's how you use them. The best editors could work with the ridiculously clunky AVID or Final Cut. Seeing my preference there haha


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Bill Davis
Re: Where is editing going
on Sep 30, 2015 at 10:56:09 pm

OK - thanks for that.
Looks like, according to your list, the innovative energy on the Premiere Pro side has been largely in the new Cloud initiatives - moving what the program already does into virtual space rather than re-thinking any traditional timeline functions. Is that fair? Did Permiere Pro not have Dynamic Link and UI customization 3 years ago? That's surprising.
As to Vegas and Lightworks et al, I'm trying to remember the forward looking developments over the past 36 -48 months from them - anyone know those well enough to comment?
I guess we could include Resolve 12 - but again, I'm kinda looking for we features that moved the game forward IN editing - not just incrementally better ways to do the same thing we've been doing things for years.

Again, this is not about any of those other tools not being capable editors - they all clearly are - but as much as our industry has been disrupted by new tools and technologies and overall change - it kinda surprises me that we haven't seen as much change in our tools.

Maybe that's too much to ask.

But who is imagining any new editing possibilities to go with all the new tech? Anyone? Or is editing as it happened in 1995 - but moved into a rental cloud - the best we can look forward to as an industry?

Worth asking, perhaps.

Or not.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 2:50:57 pm

[Bill Davis] " the innovative energy on the Premiere Pro side has been largely in the new Cloud initiatives - moving what the program already does into virtual space rather than re-thinking any traditional timeline functions. Is that fair?"

Partially. The other half of their innovation is in creating specific new tools for editors to use - tools like Morph Cut, and in the about to be released newest version of Audition a tool that will take a piece of music that runs, let's say 1:30, and automatically re-cut it to a length you specify without using re-timing but rather by analyzing the beats and chord changes. As well they have a new tool that will take a text file and turn it into an audio file using synthesized speech - perfect for quick scratch vo for those of us lacking your golden pipes. My contention is that the Cloud is creating a context for them to be creating these tools at an extraordinary rate, and it is this new rate of change itself that is a "new direction" for video editing.

You see the innovations in X, the timeline, the skimmer, keywords - all of which appeal to your workflow - and then see "the future" in terms of those type of functions. I think you need to broaden your view and see that innovation can be in team approaches, in remote handling, in speed of new tool introduction, in increased UI options. Then you'll see that while X is very innovative in some areas, those areas do not constrain the concept of "where editing is going." It's going many different places all at once; there is no such thing as going to where the puck will be when the ice is littered with so many pucks.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 3:56:22 pm

[Herb Sevush] "the about to be released newest version of Audition a tool that will take a piece of music that runs, let's say 1:30, and automatically re-cut it to a length you specify without using re-timing but rather by analyzing the beats and chord changes."

That sounds very useful! A bit like the functionality of Smart Sounds Sonicfire Pro, but with a standard music track.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 4:18:27 pm

I wonder whether they licensed this technology from Sony, or that it's just relatively simple to implement. I've been using Sony ACID Pro for a few years now, and was amazed at this ability with just a .wav file. I could take a music clip which was, say, 100bpm, and change it to whatever speed I wanted it, without effecting pitch. As a matter of fact, when you start a music project in ACID, the software "learns" what the bpm of the first track is, then can automaticlly adjust non-matching tracks to fit the tempo.

Sony sells what they call "8 packs" of library music - these are essentially 8 track versions of music beds, which, when opened in ACID, allow you to create whatever arrangements you need, right down to the tempo - so you can fit a piece of music to your production perfectly, right down to using a quieter/simpler version of a track when you've got a VO, and that sort of thing. It's not dissimilar to Sonicfire Pro, but to see it in in Audition will put the technology a bit closer to home.

If you want to download a free trial of ACID, it's at:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/download/trials/musicstudio

Sony also gives away a free 8 pack of their music beds once a week:

http://www.acidplanet.com/downloads/8packs/

There are some pretty sophisticated arrangements in their library. And there's also a free version of the software called ACID Xpress.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 4:54:58 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "I wonder whether they licensed this technology from Sony, or that it's just relatively simple to implement. I've been using Sony ACID Pro for a few years now, and was amazed at this ability with just a .wav file. I could take a music clip which was, say, 100bpm, and change it to whatever speed I wanted it, without effecting pitch. As a matter of fact, when you start a music project in ACID, the software "learns" what the bpm of the first track is, then can automaticlly adjust non-matching tracks to fit the tempo."

Audition's new feature is different than that.

Check it out:






Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 5:18:27 pm

Aah - thanks Walter. That is indeed quite a bit different from ACID's capabilities. I'll be interested to see how it works from an artistic point of view. The algorithm it uses must be pretty sophisticated, but editing a piece of music well is based on artistic decisions, which you can't build in to software. But the demo was pretty impressive!

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 5:53:43 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "Aah - thanks Walter. That is indeed quite a bit different from ACID's capabilities. I'll be interested to see how it works from an artistic point of view. The algorithm it uses must be pretty sophisticated, but editing a piece of music well is based on artistic decisions, which you can't build in to software. But the demo was pretty impressive!"

It looks like morph cut but for audio.

I agree that artistic decision can come into play, but sometimes I just need the music to be shorter. How it becomes shorter I don't really care as long as the edits aren't noticeable. ;)


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 6:51:33 pm

That's cool, but I'm pretty certain I'd still chop the bars up. You always want to be making custom length crescendos and lulls really no? I actually quite like chopping a track up. It's still cool tho.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 1, 2015 at 5:51:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "But who is imagining any new editing possibilities to go with all the new tech? Anyone? Or is editing as it happened in 1995 - but moved into a rental cloud - the best we can look forward to as an industry?"

Like mixing gesture controls and VR googles so we can all look like Michael Douglas from the movie "Disclosure"? ;)







Maybe the tools we have, at a fundamental/conceptual level, work very well and that's why the concepts driving them seem stagnant compared to the constant technical changes (new codecs, new frame rates, new background processes, etc.,)? As I brought up in another thread, many film elements (razor blade tool, sprocket holes, film leader, etc.,) still appear in in NLE GUIs because they are understood even though they are rooted in the 1900's. Gears and wrenches are also common visual cues about how to dig into the virtual guts of our software.

The other night I channel surfed into a documentary about the electric guitar and the solid body electric guitar hasn't really changed much since Fender and Gibson took it mainstream in the 1950's. When I think about other creative fields (musicians, photographers, cinematographers, painters, writers, etc.,) not much has fundamentally changed in decades (if not a century or more) in their fields other than trading tubes for transistors or film for sensors.

There are certainly new levels of affordability and flexibility these days which can open doors/opportunities that didn't exist in the past, but much of that basically extended what already existed to a new audience/user base. YouTube, for example, has been huge for a number of reasons but content creators and distributors getting paid via ad revenue based on audience size is as old as the hills.


-Andrew


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Where is editing going...how?
on Oct 1, 2015 at 9:16:39 pm

There is a great question on the Art of the Edit forum about how we prep our final edits....any takers?

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 6:22:30 am

Well. Didn't SonicFire Pro do exactly that with SmartSound about 10 years ago? I never warmed to it, but I know a dozen corporate cutters who use the heck out of that system.
I wonder what Adobe is adding to the concept.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 12:30:50 pm

[Bill Davis] "Didn't SonicFire Pro do exactly that with SmartSound about 10 years ago?"

Yes, but the difference is with SonicFire Pro you have to work only with their Smart Sound library of music, which was composed specifically to be rearranged in this fashion. Adobe's version claims to work with any music clip. If this really works it will be a killer blow to SonicFire Pro, of which I am a happy user.

Again, by itself this is not a huge deal, any editor can cut up a piece of music to fit; in fact it's one of the pleasures of editing to make a real nice musical edit. But sometimes, under time pressure, if you don't want to spend the 15 minutes to find the right cut for some recalcitrant music, it's a nice tool to have. And the point is Ppro is unleashing multiple little tools like this every six months - all of them may not work for you but the odds are some of them will.

Personally I'm more interested in the "text file to synthesized VO" tool. Hearing my own voice in a scratch VO is an irritation I can do without, saving the 20 minutes or so recording it and cleaning it up is even more pleasant. YMMV.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 12:37:55 pm

"Personally I'm more interested in the "text file to synthesized VO" tool. Hearing my own voice in a scratch VO is an irritation I can do without, saving the 20 minutes or so recording it and cleaning it up is even more pleasant. "

I'm actually surprised that Apple hasn't done anything in this area as well as speech to text and syncing to text. Adobe has dabbled in this a bit unsuccessfully and Avid's tools (still the best in this field) are tied up in a contract negotiation with Nexidia, who owns that IP. You'd think that with Siri technology, Apple would have found a way to make something in this area useful with FCPX.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 9:57:33 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Adobe's version claims to work with any music clip. If this really works it will be a killer blow to SonicFire Pro, of which I am a happy user."

I don't think it will be a killer blow. A stinging slap perhaps. Sonicfire Pro gives you control over which instruments you want to hear and when. Audition's new remix tool will be a welcome backup to Sonicfire Pro.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Tony West
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 2:16:06 am

[Herb Sevush] " newest version of Audition a tool that will take a piece of music that runs, let's say 1:30, and automatically re-cut it to a length you specify without using re-timing but rather by analyzing the beats "

Hummm, that type of automation sounds kind of "Apple'ish" like the ease of the Ken Burns boxes on stills.

One might get less respect than the other, but I might be tempted to put them in the same boat.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 9:02:15 am

Some older ideas or two points that I would add along with Herb's would be as follows:

GPU - Adobe's Mercury Playback Engine was the first mainstream NLE to tap into a new generation of GPU. Not OpenGL but CUDA and later OpenCL. For a certainty, it got the conversation started back when DSLRs and H.264 were changing the discussion on film making.

Native File Format Support - Not transcoding media and being able to edit immediately is a huge time saver and one of the biggest things that moves/moved broadcasters and large media companies away from Avid and FCP7.

Although these two points don't fall within Bill's guidelines of the last three years, I think they were important steps in the evolution of NLE's in general. In both cases, other NLE's followed suit. And let me say clearly that ALL NLE's have provided some unique features that changed the landscape. I agree with Herb in saying that it's not limited to the 3 A's. Vegas is great at audio, Edius is strong at news editing and broad codec support, Lightworks has film devotees, etc.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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James Ewart
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 2:08:38 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Native File Format Support - Not transcoding media and being able to edit immediately is a huge time saver and one of the biggest things that moves/moved broadcasters and large media companies away from Avid and FCP7.
"


Hello Dennis

Can I ask for clarification on this seeing as you are here please?

With PP you don't need to transcode media Full Stop (or Period).

You put whatever it is in the timeline and don't give it a second thought? Just cut and then export to whatever you like?


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 2:48:41 pm

[James Ewart] "Can I ask for clarification on this seeing as you are here please?

With PP you don't need to transcode media Full Stop (or Period).

You put whatever it is in the timeline and don't give it a second thought? Just cut and then export to whatever you like?"


Hi James,

I would hope other can chime in to give you non-vendor replies. In principle, yes it's that simple. In the timeline, we resolve aspect ratio, frame rate, codec and if you wish frame size. Of course we give you total control on how the picture looks. When outputting, we resolve pull up/down cadences from different codecs for output so your visual quality is top notch.

Of course, your mileage will vary based on several factors...

Large frame, 4k and higher media can break the rules a bit if they're particularly heavy. Performance may suffer to a point where you would want to create some proxies. That said, I've had great success with RED, 4k H264 like the GH4, several Sony flavors and some others. A lot depends on the kind of system you put in front of it too - i.e. a laptop isn't going to give you the same performance as a souped up desktop.

Finally, in my experience with editors, a lot depends on what you consider an acceptable responsive editing experience. Codecs will vary it a lot here. i.e a ProRes 422 1080i on a MacPro will give you a much more responsive edit experience than an older laptop without GPU acceleration and asking it to smoothly scrub 4k H.264 media.

Hope this helps,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 2:48:40 pm

[James Ewart] "With PP you don't need to transcode media Full Stop (or Period)."

Dennis can correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially yes. Some formats perform better when they are transcoded, but Premiere Pro accepts a pretty wide swath of codecs, rates, sizes without a hiccup.

Toss ProRes, DNxHD, MP4, MPEG2, H264 AVC-Intra, XAVC, uncompressed, HDV, etc. all on the same timeline and edit away in real-time without too many issues. Better performance set to 1/2-res in the viewer (like "better performance" in X), but otherwise it works great.

In fact there is no built-in transcode function in Premiere Pro unless you consolidate and trim the finished sequence. Adobe leaves standard transcoding to Prelude or Adobe Media Encoder.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 3, 2015 at 10:42:07 am

[Oliver Peters] "In fact there is no built-in transcode function in Premiere Pro unless you consolidate and trim the finished sequence."

I would say that if you need a transcode workflow, that's exactly one of the uses that Prelude is designed for. Imagine a whole program for "Log and Transfer" and throw on "keyword tagging" as well.

As an aside, don't forget about Adobe Media Encoder's watch folder capabilities. If you just need massive, raw background transcoding, this solution will work great.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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James Ewart
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 3, 2015 at 12:16:12 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "I would say that if you need a transcode workflow, that's exactly one of the uses that Prelude is designed for. Imagine a whole program for "Log and Transfer" and throw on "keyword tagging" as well.
"


If Premiere doesn't need transcoded footage why the option in Prelude to do so please?

Or does it run that teency bit smoother with everything in Pro Res (for example)?

And just a reminder to anyone reading this (because these threads do become hard to follow). This sub thread was me asking the question of Dennis (taking an opportunity seeing as he was in the room so to speak) and not Dennis jumping in and pitching Adobe. (I'm sure everyone knows his manners are too good for that anyway)

Best

James


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 3, 2015 at 1:06:48 pm

[James Ewart] "If Premiere doesn't need transcoded footage why the option in Prelude to do so please?
Or does it run that teency bit smoother with everything in Pro Res (for example)?"


Premiere Pro does indeed perform more fluidly with some codecs than others. Remember, it's a cross-platform application, so ProRes might be better on a Mac, but AVC-Intra might be better for a Windows user. No matter how well an application can handle a range of diverse codecs, some simply don't perform well, no matter what. That's more of a limitation of the OS and underpinnings to handle video than anything to do with the application itself.

Also there's the issue of how the file/folder structure of the source media is organized. With some files, like P2, you cannot break the folder structure if you want to be able to read the native/original files. Some editors prefer to impose their own organization, so Prelude lets you do that through transcoding.

Prelude enables 5 functions:
1 - back-up of source media from cards to your hard drive
2 - optional transcode (as part of or in addition to the back-up)
3 - secondary transcode (for example a simultaneous high-res and low-res transcode for 2 copies)
4 - logging
5 - simple assemblies that can be sent directly into Premiere Pro

The fact that Premiere can handle native media doesn't mean that it's the best way to work. Prelude gives you an Adobe tool that's designed for pre-edit and media prep, but it's use is optional.

In the context of "where editing is going" the idea of pre-editing is actually being pushed by a number of companies. Notably Sony has designed its Catalyst product line for media prep and pre-editing. This seems to be to answer the desire to have some lightweight editing capability on set.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 3, 2015 at 1:12:47 pm

[Oliver Peters] "This seems to be to answer the desire to have some lightweight editing capability on set."

Thanks Oliver,

Two questions:

Not being able to transcode media within the PP application is not missing something? Wouldn't you want that capability? Or is it just a workflow thing. Log and transcode with Prelude and then start editing with PP. But then extra bits and pieces come in and pickups and stuff and back to prelude for logging and transcoding? Sounds a hassle but perhaps it' so seamless it isn't?

FCPX kind of ticks the on set box as well don't you think?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 3, 2015 at 1:28:29 pm

[James Ewart] "Not being able to transcode media within the PP application is not missing something? Wouldn't you want that capability?"

Personally I prefer to transcode, but it isn't essential. If you work in an environment where you want to go right away to cutting and don't want to take the time to transcode, Premiere is a really good tool. But it really is more of a preference issue than anything else.

Remember that a lot of camera media used these days does not have valid timecode. Most individual editing apps handle this, but it's a HUGE PITA when going between apps. That's part of the transcoding/media prep stage that I think is equally important to a change in codec. Namely the addition/change of timecode and reel ID numbers.

Where transcoding tends to be an issue for me is with media like RED. Premiere Pro handles native editing with RED media quite well, but it doesn't perform as well as with ProRes. So with RED, I'd want to transcode first and in that case, FCPX has an elegant way to handle it. However, even there, I prefer to transcode RED in Redcine-X Pro first and then cut with the transcoded media.

[James Ewart] "Sounds a hassle but perhaps it' so seamless it isn't?"

The metadata comes across to Premiere Pro. Essentially what Apple did as a combined function within FCPX, Adobe opted for two separate applications.

[James Ewart] "FCPX kind of ticks the on set box as well don't you think?"

Sure, it could. I think that's where Resolve's editing tools are going to get the most workout on larger jobs with more complex media, like RED. It's already what most DITs are using. Sony Catalyst Browse/Prepare/Edit is trying to move into that area because of its streamlined functions, but we'll see.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 3, 2015 at 8:23:48 pm

James,

Pretty much what Oliver said along with my one word addition.

[Oliver Peters] "The fact that Premiere can handle native media doesn't mean that it's always the best way to work. Prelude gives you an Adobe tool that's designed for pre-edit and media prep, but it's use is optional."

In other words, "right tool for the right job."

Dennis


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 2:50:26 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Oct 2, 2015 at 2:53:50 pm

**Edit - this is pretty/totally superfluous given the responses above but anyway...**

yes. That's the short answer. As long as you have a mac made in say the last four years, preferably an i7 processor, 16 GB of ram and 1GB+ on the GPU - you're off to the races. It will cut anything. It's a very very responsive timeline too. Anyone here who uses both will acknowledge PPro is lot less laggy than X.

For instance if you had 5K red footage - you could cut that on any half decent mac - drop it to quarter res on the monitor so it's 1K, premiere will debayer off the GPU, and you're cutting red native at 1K resolution. I cut 4K GH4 avchd on a three year old (stacked) SSD laptop on location for a few weeks. Premiere ate the stuff up at 1/2 res.

It'll take anything - david lawrence coined the phrase years ago: it's the honey badger. You can also set it up to do ProRes passthrough encodes like FCP7 would - if that's to your taste.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Ewart
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 4:08:44 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It'll take anything - david lawrence coined the phrase years ago: it's the honey badger. You can also set it up to do ProRes passthrough encodes like FCP7 would - if that's to your taste.
"


I'm sure I read somewhere some years ago that it was the Mercury Playback engine that made Apple throw on the towel with Legacy.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 2, 2015 at 5:25:39 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yes. That's the short answer. As long as you have a mac made in say the last four years, preferably an i7 processor, 16 GB of ram and 1GB+ on the GPU - you're off to the races. It will cut anything. It's a very very responsive timeline too."

I use a 2009 MP with a modern-ish Nvidia GPU (2gig VRAM) and I get surprisingly good performance when using GOP codecs in PPro. Honestly, I never thought a 6yr old computer would be useful on a daily basis but here I am.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 3, 2015 at 4:04:51 pm

I ran across this:







A Premiere 4.2 demo from 1996. That's the Ubilos version. Somehow this seems more like FCPX to me than FCP "classic" which came in between. There are actually some things in there that more "modern" NLEs still can't do.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 3, 2015 at 5:09:45 pm

After reading this thread, it occurs to me that expecting a radical new approach to editing software is unlikely. As computers came up, there was a period of experimentation and rapid change. Just like the way the jet engine revolutionized aircraft design in the late forties and through the 1950's. However the Boeing 707 came out in 1957. Does it look that different to the newest passenger jets? Hot really. They have many refinements, but the concept is not much different.

So being a bit cranky, NLE, the revolution is over. I think Apple was reaching for a revolution with FCPX, but it didn't happen. I went with FCPX and it works for me, but Adobe PP would have been another way.

I took Yogi's advice, if you come to a fork in the road, take it.


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Bill Davis
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 1:59:16 am

Really Claude? You're comparing an airplane that takes decades to design and tens of thousands of hours of airworthiness testing and certification - and upon which hundred of lives typically depend - to NLE software?

That seams a bit of a stretch.

Even if you're editing for a president or a pope - if your NLE crashes, it does NOT make the news.

Just sayin.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 2:32:23 am

Of course I am glad that planes don't crash as often as NLE's. But really how much faster is the 787 compared to am707? Let's hope FCPX does turn out to be the Concorde.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 3:17:04 am
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Oct 4, 2015 at 5:45:55 am

[Bill Davis] "Really Claude? You're comparing an airplane that takes decades to design and tens of thousands of hours of airworthiness testing and certification - and upon which hundred of lives typically depend - to NLE software?"

Too literal Bill. Claude is talking about product maturation, not the actual products themselves.

On a related note, CPU clock speeds increased 300% in the mid-90's but only by 33% in the mid-2000's (which is probably why we are seeing more leveraging of GPUs today). At some point in every field the wild and crazy advancement, experimentation and/or innovation slows as products mature. When NLEs first started making appearances in the 80's everything was up for grabs and the genre (for lack of a better term) was wide open. But after 30yrs of development it makes sense that a lot of ideas have already been tried and what we are left with, generally speaking, is what works. Is there room for improvement? Of course, but when you get right down to it we still line up picture and sound end to end like film editors did 100yrs ago.

Honestly, I'm much more excited to see how people use the tech, and the end results they get, than the tech itself.


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Bill Davis
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 6:40:07 am

Well perhaps. But I'm still getting nearly twice as much done in the same time I used to spend on the mechanics of editing. I've tried to explain why countless times - but nobody seems interested. Oddly I watched Jerry Hoffmans interview with Phil Hodgetts and Dr. Greg Smith earlier tonight and Jerry said the exact same thing. I hear it from experienced editors literally all over the world. Australia, London, Buenos Aries, and LA. Doing a web thing tomorrow with some of the editorial team for the CNN OJ retrospective airing tomorrow night - I suspect I'll hear stories of efficiency there as well. When you hear the same thing from multiple professional sources time and time again - it starts to take on weight.

Oh and as to the main topic here - the booste I got in productivity with my new Apple SSD equipped MacBook Pro was as big as any leap I've ever experienced in project completion speed. It crushes what I used to see in daily editing. Now that's largely MXF on USB-3. Maybe if you have to cut Red5k native it's not the same. (Then again that's kinda what proxy is for, but whatever.) YMMV for sure. But I'm super productive and delighted to be so. And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 7:15:30 am

[Bill Davis] " But I'm super productive and delighted to be so. And so it goes."

Was someone saying you weren't productive or delighted?

I don't follow what your lamenting about NLEs not changing as fast as technology has to do with you buying a new computer.


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Bill Davis
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 8:05:03 pm

Andrew,
This entire thread is about the evolution of computer based video editing. Seems to me that an experience where investing in the latest generation of hardware has returned a much better than expected boost in productivity - is about as "on-topic" as it gets.
It adds weight to the fact that sometimes software designers are actually creating things based on what's in their labs today - rather than exclusuvely what's on their customers desktops today. And that's worth understanding IMO.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 9:42:55 pm

[Bill Davis] "It adds weight to the fact that sometimes software designers are actually creating things based on what's in their labs today - rather than exclusuvely what's on their customers desktops today. And that's worth understanding IMO."

Apple software designers creating things to make you buy a new computer from them? Disregarding those who have older systems? I'm not sure I'd be happy with a Company that did that. OK you're not paying rentals, but you have to pay the "Apple Tax" to get the best out of it.


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Gabe Strong
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 11:20:23 pm

I dunno about all that. I'm cutting in FCPX (latest version) on my 2009 Mac Pro
tower. Yeah, I've upgraded it, but it's a six year old computer. In other words, I have
saved enough money by using FCX (instead of 'paying Adobe's rental' over that same six years)
to buy FCPX, Motion, Compressor, AND buy a new Mac as well (ie pay the 'Apple tax').
So not sure you can say Apple is 'Disregarding anyone with an older system' as FCP X runs on a
six year old computer just fine. Now if it only ran on the new Mac Pros and laptops, I'd agree
with you.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 12:57:19 am

[Gabe Strong] "In other words, I have
saved enough money by using FCX (instead of 'paying Adobe's rental' over that same six years)
to buy FCPX, Motion, Compressor, AND buy a new Mac as well (ie pay the 'Apple tax')"


I know you're not saying that the "Adobe rental" has been around for six years...but at the current rate:

$49 x 72 months = $3240

That's assuming you didn't just go for Photoshop ($9.99) and After Effects ($19.99 -- what? The price is DOWN from its former $29/mo. The price is going DOWN, just like every other software, everywhere, from every vendor, all the time) for $28.88 x 72 months = $2079.36

vs

Master Collection CS 5 (2010, but close enough) $2599 + 1 upgrade (CS6 upgrade) @$699 = $3298

Hmmm...

So can we at least please please PLEASE agree that 6 years of Adobe rental is LESS than buying one box plus one upgrade in the same 6 years? BECAUSE IT'S LESS.



But let's keep going.

Final Cut Studio 5 (also 2010): $1299 + the same 2 upgrades I assumed for CS @$299 (which is $598) = $1897.

But really, looking at Creative COW, it seems that most FCS users upgraded to 6 and 7 as well, so 4 x $299 = $1196, then add $1299 for the first purchase, and you'd have spent $2495.

Oops, plus $399.97 for FCPX, Motion, and Compressor, for a total of $2894.

So, yes, in round numbers, you saved $300-ish going Apple vs. Adobe. This is real money, but not enough to buy a Mac Pro...

...unless you'd have rented just Photoshop and After Effects, in which case you'd have spent as much as $800 MORE by going the Apple route.

STILL IRRELEVANT.

"Saving" by not spending means that if you'd dropped cable and gone to Netflix, you could have saved $7129 ($99*72). More than enough to buy 2 systems.

Or you could have sold one car to buy a cheaper one...or moved back in with your parents...or not have gone to college.

But money not spent is not the same as money saved. By not buying a Tesla, I COULD have put down a down-payment on a million dollar oceanfront condo, but in fact, I haven't put enough money in my pocket to buy a box of Goobers, much less a Mac Pro.

Oh wait, I forgot. You bought a Mac Pro. If you'd bought an HP, okay, about the same price. But if you'd have bought a Dell (maybe not great advice in 2009, but I'm genuinely impressed with them now), you'd have saved the very real Mac Tax -- potentially wiping out EVERY DIME of savings vs. your all-Apple scenario!!!!

I of course concede that the Dell can't run FCPX, but you and David were talking about the Mac tax, so let's talk about the Mac Tax. You simply can't make the case that Mac + Apple software costs less than Windows computer + Adobe software.

This is true both because of the very real Mac tax, and because you haven't done the actual math on how much you'll spend over a given span with Adobe software.



So, let's sweep all this palaver off the table, and what have we got?

-- That if you'd been "renting" the full boat of Adobe software for 6 years, you'd have paid LESS than if you bought 1 CS box plus 1 upgrade.

PAID LESS FOR RENTAL.

AND....any savings by going all-Apple vs. full Adobe would be wiped out by the Mac tax....

AND....there's a pretty big swing in Adobe's favor if you're just renting PS + AE.

...and really, being really honest (HEY DENNIS LOOK OVER THERE) that APPEARS to be what most people here have been working with.


And yet...

THIS IS ALL RIDICULOUS. Buy whatever the hell you want. Don't buy whatever the hell you want.

Just please don't wave your hand over either the overwhelming expense of Adobe rental or the overwhelming savings of Apple stuff, because in more circumstances than not, it's just not true.





This probably looks like a monkey typed it, but I've spent all the time editing that I've got before Monday drops another safe on my head. And yes, I edit these things. LOL

I'll also let you or anyone else spending their own money have the last word.

In any case, when we're talking about something, let's talk about what we're talking about. If we're just gonna fling cliches and half-truths at each other, we might as well just run for office. LOL We'll make plenty to cover any route we feel like taking.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 4:25:36 am
Last Edited By Brett Sherman on Oct 5, 2015 at 4:37:31 am

[Tim Wilson] "Oh wait, I forgot. You bought a Mac Pro. If you'd bought an HP, okay, about the same price. But if you'd have bought a Dell (maybe not great advice in 2009, but I'm genuinely impressed with them now), you'd have saved the very real Mac Tax -- potentially wiping out EVERY DIME of savings vs. your all-Apple scenario!!!!"

Is there a "real Mac Tax"? Look here: http://www.futurelooks.com/new-apple-mac-pro-can-build-better-cheaper-pc-di...

Granted this may be slightly dated info, but it seems you're doing an Apples to Orange comparison. (pun intended). I just don't buy that Macs are more expensive considering quality of components and actually specs. Yes you can buy cheaper PCs, but often there is a component of lesser quality that gets you that price cut.

Also, wouldn't it make more sense to look at 6 years in the future? The past is the past. Over the next 6 years FCP X would create substantial savings over Adobe, period. And I don't know how you're going to edit with Photoshop and After Effects alone. So really you should only be looking at $50/month. Over 6 years that totals $3600 versus what would seemingly be $400 for FCPX, Motion, Compressor.

Do I think price should be the primary comparison between the two? Nope. But FCP X does have a substantial advantage in that area.


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Gabe Strong
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 9:21:00 am
Last Edited By Gabe Strong on Oct 6, 2015 at 9:09:33 am

[Tim Wilson] "I know you're not saying that the "Adobe rental" has been around for six years...but at the current rate:

$49 x 72 months = $3240

That's assuming you didn't just go for Photoshop ($9.99) and After Effects ($19.99 -- what? The price is DOWN from its former $29/mo. The price is going DOWN, just like every other software, everywhere, from every vendor, all the time) for $28.88 x 72 months = $2079.36

vs

Master Collection CS 5 (2010, but close enough) $2599 + 1 upgrade (CS6 upgrade) @$699 = $3298

Hmmm...

So can we at least please please PLEASE agree that 6 years of Adobe rental is LESS than buying one box plus one upgrade in the same 6 years? BECAUSE IT'S LESS.



But let's keep going.

Final Cut Studio 5 (also 2010): $1299 + the same 2 upgrades I assumed for CS @$299 (which is $598) = $1897.

But really, looking at Creative COW, it seems that most FCS users upgraded to 6 and 7 as well, so 4 x $299 = $1196, then add $1299 for the first purchase, and you'd have spent $2495.

Oops, plus $399.97 for FCPX, Motion, and Compressor, for a total of $2894.

So, yes, in round numbers, you saved $300-ish going Apple vs. Adobe. This is real money, but not enough to buy a Mac Pro...

...unless you'd have rented just Photoshop and After Effects, in which case you'd have spent as much as $800 MORE by going the Apple route.

STILL IRRELEVANT.
"


First, when I talked about saving money, I was talking FCP X vs. CC, but I'll go
back to that later. Even assuming I WAS comparing CC to the former CS suite,
you are making a TON of assumptions in your example! About how often I might be upgrading
for example. The fact that I am using a 2009 computer may give you a hint about my usual
attitude towards our 'consumer driven' culture of 'always upgrading', and 'making sure you
have the latest version of the iPhone'. I also own a 20 year old car with a couple hundred
thousand miles on it. And I recently upgraded cameras from a PD150 to a FS700.
I'm saying this to point out, sure, in your specific example, with the specific
set of facts you are throwing out there,'CC' may be cheaper but if it were REALLY
the case that 'CC' is 'cheaper' than the old way, why would Adobe have switched?
No, the real reason they switched is that there is a whole 'nother set of facts out there.
Facts like people like me don't give them enough money because we skip years and years
between upgrades. Mainly because I don't need every new little bell and whistle like
'Morph cut' or '3D text'. I wait for upgrades that I actually need. Sometimes that takes
awhile. Adobe would rather I don't 'sit' on that money, so they changed their way of doing
business. Now I either keep paying and hope their upgrades are 'worth it' or I move on to
someone else. Fair enough, I can understand that I am no longer their 'target customer'.

[Tim Wilson] "So, let's sweep all this palaver off the table, and what have we got?

-- That if you'd been "renting" the full boat of Adobe software for 6 years, you'd have paid LESS than if you bought 1 CS box plus 1 upgrade.

PAID LESS FOR RENTAL.

AND....any savings by going all-Apple vs. full Adobe would be wiped out by the Mac tax....

AND....there's a pretty big swing in Adobe's favor if you're just renting PS + AE.

...and really, being really honest (HEY DENNIS LOOK OVER THERE) that APPEARS to be what most people here have been working with.


And yet...

THIS IS ALL RIDICULOUS. Buy whatever the hell you want. Don't buy whatever the hell you want.

Just please don't wave your hand over either the overwhelming expense of Adobe rental or the overwhelming savings of Apple stuff, because in more circumstances than not, it's just not true.

"


Ah yes....now on to the Apple vs. Adobe cost (More expensive Apple computer and cheaper software vs.
cheaper PC and paying subscription every month), I know for a fact I have saved money,
How? One of my clients I do consulting for, hired me to spec them a PC for editing on Adobe,
(Ordered from Jeff Pulera at Safe Harbor and components recommended by him) then they
hired me to put it together in their edit bay for them, and then later install Adobe CC products on it for them
(They are not terribly computer savvy which is why they hired me). Also I'm sorry, but
'just Photoshop and AE' isn't going to cut it when you actually have to....you know....edit video, so
they had to go with the more expensive option once CC came along. You want me to throw out numbers?
I can do that too. I paid $2000 for my 2009 Mac Pro from the Apple Store. They paid $1788 for their
PC, also in 2009. (I'm not counting my fee in this.). So with my specific set of facts, there was an
'Apple tax' of $222.
I'm basically breaking even with them at the end of 1 year of them having CC and me having
FCP X. Every year after that I'm saving money. I'm $1200 'to the good' right now. That is 'Real math'.
You seem to not like Apple and the decisions they have made with their editing software very much.
That's understandable.I didn't like it either. As a matter of fact, I disliked it so much, I bought a 2nd
hand version of Adobe CS6. Then the CC dropped and Adobe lost me as a customer as quickly
as they had stolen me from FCP 7 (which I upgraded to from FCP4). But there are 'facts' and there
are 'facts'. Don't make the mistake of assuming your facts are the same as everyone else's.
Some people may save money with a PC and CC.....but there sure are a lot of possibilities
when you go with a PC. Some cheap. Others expensive. Some people who upgrade every
version or two may save or break even just on the software. Some people only need
Photoshop. But there are so many possible permutations of computers, software, and
needs of an editor that you saying:

Just please don't wave your hand over either the overwhelming expense of Adobe rental or
the overwhelming savings of Apple stuff, because in more circumstances than not, it's just not true.


seems, dare I say it, a bit presumptuous?

$400 for FCP X, Motion and Compressor? $600 a year for CC? $200 savings the first year and
$600 every year after that? Hmmm, I dunno, I guess it depends on your definition of 'overwhelming savings'.


[Tim Wilson] "Oh wait, I forgot. You bought a Mac Pro. If you'd bought an HP, okay, about the same price. But if you'd have bought a Dell (maybe not great advice in 2009, but I'm genuinely impressed with them now), you'd have saved the very real Mac Tax -- potentially wiping out EVERY DIME of savings vs. your all-Apple scenario!!!!

I of course concede that the Dell can't run FCPX, but you and David were talking about the Mac tax, so let's talk about the Mac Tax. You simply can't make the case that Mac + Apple software costs less than Windows computer + Adobe software.

This is true both because of the very real Mac tax, and because you haven't done the actual math on how much you'll spend over a given span with Adobe software.
"


Actually, I HAVE done the math. It's pretty simple actually. I need to edit video, so I can't get by
with just 'Photoshop and AE'. So I'd be paying $50 per month for CC. $600 per year. Which means
I am spending $200 more to go Adobe and PC the first year and $600 per year afterwards.
I am currently using as my main edit computer, a Mac from 2009. If I was to use my next Mac for
as long as I have used this one....it would be six years of service. And over that six years, I would save enough money to MORE than make up for any 'Mac tax'.

[Tim Wilson] ""Saving" by not spending means that if you'd dropped cable and gone to Netflix, you could have saved $7129 ($99*72). More than enough to buy 2 systems.

Or you could have sold one car to buy a cheaper one...or moved back in with your parents...or not have gone to college.

But money not spent is not the same as money saved. By not buying a Tesla, I COULD have put down a down-payment on a million dollar oceanfront condo, but in fact, I haven't put enough money in my pocket to buy a box of Goobers, much less a Mac Pro.

Oh wait, I forgot. You bought a Mac Pro. If you'd bought an HP, okay, about the same price. But if you'd have bought a Dell (maybe not great advice in 2009, but I'm genuinely impressed with them now), you'd have saved the very real Mac Tax -- potentially wiping out EVERY DIME of savings vs. your all-Apple scenario!!!!"


As for 'money not spent' vs. 'money saved' it seems you are missing my point. I'm not
talking about fictional choices like buying a Tesla or an oceanfront condo when you
don't have the money for either. I'm talking about real choices...and when I don't spend $50
a month on software subscriptions, that is $50 more I get to put into savings.
I have the 'choice' to save or spend that money I 'didn't spend, as I choose. And most
often, in my case, I actually do choose to save that money that 'I could have spent'. I
suppose I could choose to spend it on a lens or a quadcopter or any one of a dozen other
things I'd 'like' to have, but just because other people end up spending any money they save
doesn't mean it's not possible to save that money. You make your choices and live with
them. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the PFD, but every year, each and every Alaskan
gets a check in the mail. The state shares out part of the money they took in from oil with
each and every resident. Way back when oil money was flowing in, many government
officials wanted to spend it. But, several politicians convinced everyone, that
instead of spending the money when they got it, the state would put it in a big account,
and now, they use a PORTION of the INTEREST on that savings account, to send each and
every resident of Alaska a check.....every year. We just got it this year on Oct. 1st and it
was $2072. Every big screen TV store, furniture store, travel agency and car dealer run 'specials'
to convince people to part with this money, it's like the biggest freaking shopping day you
ever saw....Black Friday on crack. This is money we get because many years ago,
some government officials in Alaska, decided that 'money not spent' should be saved.
If government of all things, can learn this lesson, it should be a lesson more people in this
consumerism society of ours could do well to adopt.

And cable? I got rid of that 8 years ago and have saved much more than your numbers
by going with Netflix. Alaska cable TV markup and all.

Gabe Strong
G-Force Productions
http://www.gforcevideo.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 8:11:52 pm

[Steve Connor] "Apple software designers creating things to make you buy a new computer from them? Disregarding those who have older systems? I'm not sure I'd be happy with a Company that did that. OK you're not paying rentals, but you have to pay the "Apple Tax" to get the best out of it."

Sure you can parse it that way.

Another equally valid way to think about it is= to acknowledge that they are constantly being given better processors, better GPUs, more and faster RAM, SSDs and bigger pipes to push the data through.

That means that both todays software designers (them) and "judgement workers" (us) have an ever expanding hunger for better faster and cheaper ways to do things.

IF the delta between a 3 year old laptop and a 3 week old one was modest, then you could effectively argue that they're just making stuff to move new boxes.

But when our machines capabilities are positively SOARING - to do less than build in best in class performance AND make your software revisions linked to whats currently possible - is just ill-serving your customer base IMO.

With taxes, you generally pay the same over long stretches but get very little incremental improvement in return. In modern computing, a single change - say swapping out a mechanical HD for an SSD - can change the whole performance profile of your daily work.

With modern computing, you invest in new stuff, and you sometimes get WILD performance increases.

The last time I had to go back and edit on FCP Legacy - that couldn't have been more starkly clear. ; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 8:17:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "IF the delta between a 3 year old laptop and a 3 week old one was modest, then you could effectively argue that they're just making stuff to move new boxes.
But when our machines capabilities are positively SOARING .....
...The last time I had to go back and edit on FCP Legacy - that couldn't have been more starkly clear. ; )"


While that's certainly true when comparing old Apple software to new Apple software, it's not necessarily true when comparing old to new of other brands.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 5:48:01 am

[Bill Davis] "This entire thread is about the evolution of computer based video editing. Seems to me that an experience where investing in the latest generation of hardware has returned a much better than expected boost in productivity - is about as "on-topic" as it gets."

When you said the following earlier...

[Bill Davis] "But who is imagining any new editing possibilities to go with all the new tech? Anyone? Or is editing as it happened in 1995 - but moved into a rental cloud - the best we can look forward to as an industry?"

... I thought you were trying to prompt discussion about non-tech advancements/changes in editing which is why your laptop comment confused me.


[Bill Davis] "It adds weight to the fact that sometimes software designers are actually creating things based on what's in their labs today - rather than exclusuvely what's on their customers desktops today. And that's worth understanding IMO."

I'd change that "sometimes" to "many times". I think it's rather routine for software in the lab to push limits and then be dialed back to a more stable, for lack of a better term, configuration for public release. It wasn't that long ago where off the shelf hardware wasn't up to the task at all so purpose built hardware had to be created in tandem with the software. Everyone who had a computer with a DV or MPEG2 hardware decoder so you could playback DV or DVDs please raise your hand.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 12:43:01 pm

"... I thought you were trying to prompt discussion about non-tech advancements/changes in editing which is why your laptop comment confused me."

Me, too. I think that if you limit the discussion to NLEs, then I don't see too much that Apple has done that is truly disruptive as a function of software design. Sure, FCP1-7 was disruptive to the industry because of cost and the elimination of hardware dependency (other than Apple's). But in terms of design, it copied Premiere and Media Composer. If you look at X, it was a massive change, but still one that was more evolutionary than revolutionary. In the end, it's simply another option and not something that's a must-have in order to move into the future.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 3:55:28 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Oct 5, 2015 at 4:06:13 pm

FCP 1-7 was sure as heck revolutionary in terms of cost. Ask an ex Media Composer dealer. How many people were editing video before FCP Legacy and how many afterward? It was a democratization, which many might dislike, I for one at the time, but it was a revolution. These upheavals aren't always felt from advances in software and hardware, but in the cost and access equations. And besides, two of the three NLE's you mention were designed by Randy Ubillos. Copies from the same father. At the time of the ascendance of FCP and it's dominance of the broad middle and higher end, Premiere was pretty much a toy. Avid was the high end. I used to make at least 15k on every MC1000 I sold, including peripherals. Hard to lose that, but you can't stop a successful revolution. You have to adapt.

FCP was a revolution, and, from my perspective, so is FCPX. My Macs will last at least 6 years and run FCPX at the current and most likely future versions for at least that long. I have three Macs that will run it still under Applecare, one MBP Retina this week. If the past is prologue, there may not even be upgrade costs for FCPX. On top of that I would have bought the Macs anyway for my photo business http://www.jimwiseman.com. I have several galleries selling prints at $500 up a pop.

If you have the cash flow to keep renting forever, be my guest. I'm sure it works for some. But disappearing projects and the specter of no further work unless you keep paying are a brick wall for me, and I think for many others.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 6:54:39 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "FCP 1-7 was sure as heck revolutionary in terms of cost."

I think I stated that. Just not a revolution in design, IMHO.

[Jim Wiseman] "And besides, two of the three NLE's you mention were designed by Randy Ubillos. Copies from the same father."

Actually no. The original Premiere up through 4.2 were Ubilios' design and FCP 1.0 was Ubilos. However, FCP was very much a copy of the UI design used in Premiere 5.0, which itself was a rip-off of Media Composer's design. That version of Premiere was not from Ubilos.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 10:48:37 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Oct 5, 2015 at 10:58:09 pm

Randy obviously had a lot to do with the look and feel of Premiere. I was unaware of which version was his last. Thanks for that, Oliver. It appears he left Adobe for Macromedia after 4.x was released and while 5 was in development. It does look as if he worked on 5 before going there. I Googled and found this on Wikipedia from the Final Cut Pro entry:

"Randy Ubillos created the first three versions of Adobe Premiere, the first popular digital video editing application.[5] Before version 5 was released, Ubillos' group was hired by Macromedia to create KeyGrip, built from the ground up as a more professional video-editing program based on Apple QuickTime. Macromedia could not release the product without causing its partner Truevision some issues with Microsoft, as KeyGrip was, in part, based on technology from Microsoft licensed to Truevision and then in turn to Macromedia. The terms of the IP licensing deal stated that it was not to be used in conjunction with QuickTime. Thus, Macromedia was forced to keep the product off the market until a solution could be found. At the same time, the company decided to focus more on applications that would support the web, so they sought to find a buyer for their non-web applications, including KeyGrip, which by 1998 was renamed Final Cut."

Apple eventually purchased KeyGrip and as it says above renamed it Final Cut.

I was a Macromedia and Apple VAR as well as an Avid and Media 100 reseller at that time and got a behind the scenes look at KeyGrip during its development at the Macromedia offices in SF. It was quite impressive even in early Beta. It is also ironic that it was designed to run on both Mac and Windows, and was to be the Windows software version for Media 100, the main reason I was interested in seeing it. Needless to say, the acquisition by Apple put Media 100 very far behind in acquiring/writing a Windows version for their very good i/o hardware card(s).

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 4, 2015 at 8:04:59 am

Cantemo Portal anyone. Works with Adobe, Apple, and Avid


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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 11:19:06 pm

A bit of an applicable read - Adobe vs. Apple:

@ElephantSpeed/adobe-v-avid-nle-wars-9307edeee9e5'>https://medium.com/@ElephantSpeed/adobe-v-avid-nle-wars-9307edeee9e5

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 5, 2015 at 11:57:30 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:07:10 am

Good article. Thanks. Nothing to disagree with here. No mention of Apple, though. Do you see Avid or Adobe as Apple in this scenario (I actually don't see that), or just as a lesson in how to judge an editing system and it's suitability to your own particular workflow and production requirements? That I think it does well, but I don't get the reference to Apple. Maybe I am being obtuse.

Jim Wiseman
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Oliver Peters
Re: Where is editing going
on Oct 6, 2015 at 12:37:08 am

[Jim Wiseman] "No mention of Apple, though."

Well, it was based on floor presence at IBC. Apple simply is nonexistent in that case. Of course the article was centered in the niche of feature film editing. In spite of a few outliers, I think X won't get much traction with that niche. In fact, I think it will get less traction than FCP 7 had earned.

[Jim Wiseman] "but I don't get the reference to Apple"

Well, maybe a stretch on my part. I guess my point is that there's value in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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