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FCP-X for documentaries (with details)

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Bill Davis
FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 4:56:13 pm

As I recently posted on FCP.co...

Wait, I'm confused. I've heard that FCP X is is good for some workflows but not for others. Folks say you can successfully cut Movies and Commercials and Corporate Work and Sizzle Reels and News and Music Videos and now Documentaries - but then others claim you can't successfully cut Movies and Commercials and Corporate work and Sizzle Reels and News and Music Videos and now Documentaries. Somebody needs to get the record straight because a whole lot of people are still confused out there.

Maybe Patrick Southerns article will shed some light on how X's capabilities work in a large high profile major documentary project ...

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1723-final-cut-pro-x-cuts-the-majo...

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Mitch Ives
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 5:26:09 pm

Having edited a documentary in X, I can attest to the fact that it works for that.

I can also attest to the fact that it gets damn slow on a two-hour project with a lot of color correction, etc.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 5:37:59 pm

Good friend of mine cut that series, and Patrick was his assist. He loved many aspects of it, like keyword searching. But did note lots of slowdowns, and then the workarounds they used to get around those. Also said that Lumberjack was of great help

Overall he dug it.

THIS article and workflow is making me start to look at FCX. Because this is precisely the work I do. Glad to see a producer, and old school producer, say "I hear that FCX is the wave of the future...let's try to tackle this project with it." And it worked. Still needed elbow grease, but hey, so did FCP Classic. Up to the day it was discontinued.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mitch Ives
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 6:20:32 pm

[Shane Ross] "THIS article and workflow is making me start to look at FCX. "

I'm not sorry I moved over... I just retain my right to be vocal about what's still missing and what still needs fixed. Od course, every program is the same...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 8:55:34 pm

You mean FCPX works? Someone call the papers - although - quoting from the article:

However, using the Transform panel in the Inspector, you can ease Position animations, but not Scale. This would cause an odd serpentine motion to the animation, which could only be fixed by switching Position keyframes to “Linear”.

HAAAAAAaaaaaaa ha ha ha ah. oh tee hee.
how are you people not out front of cupertino holding pitchforks at this stage?

I'm not being mean but, guys, seriously:



http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 8:57:10 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I'm not being mean but, guys, seriously:"

But you have to rent that functionality :)


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 9:06:23 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Sep 28, 2015 at 9:06:59 pm

Slowdowns... Any idea what machines they were cutting with and formats used, aside from Sharestation? And were the slowdowns related to stills or in general?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 10:53:22 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Any idea what machines they were cutting "

Retina iMac 5Ks from what I know.

[Oliver Peters] "with and formats used, aside from Sharestation?"

4K from Red, some 4K from a Sony FS7, and "many different B CAMS such as digital SLRs." And then of course all that SD stock footage...I think the deposition was S-VHS.

[Andrew Kimery] "Shane, surprised you haven't thought about at least kicking the tires on X on some side work."

Well, NOW I am. A project the same editor and another producer are doing is being cut on FCX, and I've onlined for them for years...looks like I need to dip into it, as well as Resolve. But no, side work I've always relied on Adobe Premiere Pro CS6....it did what I needed, and still FCP 7 as that was what clients used. Most of my side work is online. FCX wasn't on my radar for anything until now.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 10:56:39 pm

[Shane Ross] "4K from Red, some 4K from a Sony FS7, and "many different B CAMS such as digital SLRs." And then of course all that SD stock footage...I think the deposition was S-VHS."

If the bulk of this, plus high-res stills, was all native, then no wonder there were slowdowns.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 11:49:02 pm

The RED was converted to ProRes...the rest was native, from what I hear.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 9:13:03 pm

[Steve Connor] "But you have to rent that functionality :)
"


But Steve, for type acceleration movement alone, say in mood film previz scenarios (never mind faking camera moves): if it's a choice between the dreaded rent and X, we might as well have an adult conversation on the short comings. X can't keyframe its way out of a paper bag. That's an issue.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 9:47:04 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "But Steve, for type acceleration movement alone, say in mood film previz scenarios (never mind faking camera moves): if it's a choice between the dreaded rent and X, we might as well have an adult conversation on the short comings. X can't keyframe its way out of a paper bag. That's an issue."

You don't have to sell me, I'm with you on this!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 10:20:12 pm

yarp. I'm using Ppro for a bit in town on mood films lately. It's just an utterly savage system to be used in anger? Client attended even. On two monitors with hover scrub bins, effect controls and an audio mixer set up on the left monitor it's pretty much thor's hammer. pancaking timelines FTW.
I'm ultimately glad Apple went where they did - because adobe probably wouldn't have gone anywhere near this far otherwise. It's a monstrous system.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 10:45:15 pm

"It's a monstrous system."

Yep.

I guess on the upside, those with a taste for tentacles get to shivver with delight as the monster quietly probes your money pool - monthly - for the entire the rest of your career - and oh yes, enjoy the skimmer.

oops... I meant to write "hover scrub."

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 11:44:26 pm

I'll say this Bill: the fcpx skimmer reaction fluidity picks up the adobe hover scrub, bunches it into a ball, and throws it into next week.

Apple have crazy science on the skimmer!
And yes indeed there's the fact that I'm renting a publishing house, pre-press, web creation and illustration for no reason I understand.
That all makes me more happy every day to rent the stuff I actually use. Because, as designed, at some point, Shantanyu is coming for us all.

They built a big cannon ball aimed directly at their prior customers. In a way, they arguably put a gun to my head even. I took out my card in a difficult freelance client situation on site? I had CS6, but they'd hobbled the ability to get back to CS software though the CC management software. It's boring, but it was super deliberate obfuscation. They made access to CS software downloads oddly difficult. So I bought CC on the spot.

Realistically, adobe are going for ever increasing subscription cash once they feel the numbers are safe. Otherwise why build that gun and place it against the temple of their former customers in the first place? Adobe want all the money and quite soon please.
Classic, classic sociopathic corporation move.

Premiere is still pretty great.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 12:47:58 am

Does the premiere skimming play out to the client monitor yet? It's kind of a pointless feature otherwise.


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Mitch Ives
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 1:38:13 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "And yes indeed there's the fact that I'm renting a publishing house, pre-press, web creation and illustration for no reason I understand."

That line is a keeper...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 12:51:40 am

As much as keyframing sucks, the ability to publish motion templates trumps having some easing Keyframes which Inonly need once in awhile. I dealt with legacy a shortcomings in that area for 10 years and it's no big deal in X. It just reminds me I should be doing my job in AE or Motion where I'll do a better job anyway.

Are there plugins for premiere like mBehavior? You can do some awesome motion graphics with that right in X.


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James Ewart
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 9:40:15 am

I was gonna say the same thing. For that kind of work I'd be in Motion.


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 11:30:46 pm

Why not try the Ken Burns effect in FCP X. Ease in/out and right and left motion and also size. Works perfectly.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 1, 2015 at 12:40:32 am

[Brian Seegmiller] "Why not try the Ken Burns effect in FCP X. Ease in/out and right and left motion and also size. Works perfectly"

There was specific mention in the article that the Ken Burns effect was used on all the stills, and that it DID NOT translate to Resolve, where they were finishing the show. It would have round-tripped back fine, but they were finishing in Resolve. So they needed to redo all the moves on the stills another way.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 2:31:04 pm

So it is not that FCP X can't do what they wanted but that Resolve could not. So can you send a Premiere Pro project to resolve with a Ken Burns effect Aindreas Gallagher?


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Darren Roark
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 12, 2015 at 9:04:32 pm

Hi Shane,

I came in on this project at picture lock to do the finishing, what we ended up doing regarding the Ken Burns effect was to remove any color corrections and old schooled it by exporting master ProRes QT's of the photo montages.

We overcut them back in the sequence so the finishing place would have the original photo in case they wanted to tweak the animations for any reason.

Not ideal but it got done.


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 1, 2015 at 12:45:19 am

Except when you're actually do a ken burns type photo montage where you don't want easing.


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 1, 2015 at 3:17:48 am

You can turn of the ease in and out if you like.


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 12:41:41 am

You can't ease anything in FCP X. Wait, opacity and things like blur. But wth would you need temporal easing of opacity?

Changing from linear to smooth has absolutely nothing to do with easing. One is spatial, one is temporal.

But Resolve 12 can't do easing on position. But it does it on rotation, zoom, etc. Why is it Adobe is the only one that has a clue about keyframing? I assume they do motion blur on pushes, zooms, wipes and other transitions, correct? Do they do motion blur on transforms? Legacy did that. I love that transitions can have motion blur in X.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 4:25:47 pm

[Bret Williams] "You can't ease anything in FCP X."

FCPX has velocity controls, but they are convoluted and weird. This was made in FCPX all with position keyframes and velocity control.



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Bret Williams
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 4:33:18 pm

Did you do that with the workaround where you add a keyframe, then delete it?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 4:37:39 pm

No, I use the little nubs on the path in the Viewer.


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 5:20:01 pm

Can you clarify? All I can get them to do is spatial. Curves (smooth) or linear. Seems like in some version I was able to trick it into easing, but not lately.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 5:26:37 pm

You click on a point, and you get the little beizer type handles. Hold shift, and drag that handle either left or right. That changes the size of the little hash marks of the path, which in turn changes the velocity of the clip. If you do it on both points, you can change the in and out speed.

Here's a lame diagram:




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Bret Williams
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 6:29:52 pm

The shift is just to keep the bezier handle in line with the straight path, correct? Because it seems to work with or without shift. I've had this work on occasion in the past, and recently it wasn't working. Possible it broke for a version or two?

Alright, good. Good tell Aindreas.

Now, to go see if that's the trick in resolve. They removed the graphing for position in v12, and with it the ease controls for position.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 6:45:01 pm

[Bret Williams] "The shift is just to keep the bezier handle in line with the straight path, correct?"

That's right. Otherwise you might bend the path, and things get weird. And convoluted. :)


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 4:33:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "FCPX has velocity controls, but they are convoluted and weird. This was made in FCPX all with position keyframes and velocity control."

Can you control both scale and position the same way?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 4:54:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Can you control both scale and position the same way?"

I said it was convoluted and weird, not supercool fantastic.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 10:25:54 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Oct 2, 2015 at 10:29:02 pm

No no. let's really dig in here jeremy, let's really taste the flavours.
I just opened up the app and played with setting positional and scale keyframes at the same time.

A couple of things:

first - I said a small prayer that i'd never have to do that again. please god never in a client situation.

second - can you see positional and scale keyframes in separate context at the same time? It seems you can't. So that's interesting.

third - is it actually impossible to set ease on scale? things just bounce up and down like ping pong balls with scale?
Did they actually build it like that? Am I missing something? You right click on the scale keyframe and you only get the option to delete it? Tell me that's not happening. Jeremy, for the children, tell me that's not happening.

fourth - that keyframing system was built by someone whose dog was killed by an effective keyframing system, because they really hate the idea of keyframing. How could apple crash the plane with keyframing that badly? How critical is subtle positional and scale shifts lately?

fifth - did I mention that keyframing system is a nightmarish bombsite?

sixth - when you set the keyframe timeline to show all you lose the ability to select smooth on position only keyframes? You just get the delete option? Oh the humanity, the endless awfulness of this thing. Apple may have made the worst keyframing architecture ever made - because it really has to be in the running. It's jaw dropping.

seventh - so that keyframing system really is vengefully bad. Like the joker in Gotham built it bad.

man that's a worrying keyframing system. it's just so weirdly terrible. What to do. We need an image of deep competence for a moment of peace..

ah yes - here it is - keyframing from the elder gods of keyframing. Annnd relax.

http://i.imgur.com/Tafmo0G.jpg

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 10:41:49 pm

I don't really want to get in to it. I was answering a specific question to Bret, as user of FCPX, about how to adjust velocity on position keyframes, and gave an example.

FCPX's keyframe and weird and convoluted, just like FCP Legend. This is now the third time I have said that, but that doesn't mean you can't get some work done if you need it. I rarely drift flying boxes, so it's not a big deal to me. I composite in After Effects if I need it, and it's easier than ever to get there with Automatic Duck. http://www.automaticduck.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 11:26:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I rarely drift or scale type, or perform sneaky push moves on shots, so it's not that big a deal to me."

And that's absolutely valid. I totally get that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 10:47:19 pm

That's the best sliding still I've ever seen, I give up, I'm switching to X immediately.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 9:51:49 pm

Haven't had a chance to read the article, but looking forward to it.

Shane, surprised you haven't thought about at least kicking the tires on X on some side work.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 11:14:10 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 28, 2015 at 11:14:41 pm

"But did note lots of slowdowns, and then the workarounds they used to get around those."

I'd just point out that Patrick, Christy and the others on the Braverman team have been working on the OJ project for many, many months.
IIRC it locked before 10.2 and was cut on excellent hardware like the Lumaforge system - but also while both the hardware and software was in active development.

Just like Mike Matzdorff reported after Focus - things where the workflow was ahead of both the development AND the experience of the first time team were sometimes bumpy. But the job got done and afterwards - the players found a lot to like in the system. Not every single thing to be sure. But a lot.

All modern NLEs are works in progress. For many reasons. I still think the basic truth is do you want to hang on to where editing ideas have traditionally been - or do you see value in where those ideas might be going?

Seems to me the big win in the article is centered on X's agile organization system and how that helped them sort and access a big, very complex array of project elements.

Which sounds to me like where production seems to be going in the "cameras are everywhere" era.

I havent seen the OJ piece, but I suspect that on some of the material they had to mine, there might have been more a few cameras rolling at the time? Just guessing.

And that was 20 tears ago!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 11:19:38 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'd just point out that Patrick, Christy and the others on the Braverman team have been working on the OJ project for many, many months.
IIRC it locked before 10.2 and was cut on excellent hardware like the Lumaforge system - but also while both the hardware and software was in active development. "


Don't make excuses. I've worked on a film for over 2 years cut on FCPX versions all before 10.2. Software is always under development. Some things simply work better than others, so it's worth knowing where those pitfalls are.

[Bill Davis] "Seems to me the big win in the article is centered on X's agile organization system and how that helped them sort and access a big, very complex array of project elements. "

No one is disputing that.

[Bill Davis] "I havent seen the OJ piece, but I suspect that on some of the material they had to mine, there might have been more a few cameras rolling at the time? Just guessing."

So?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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J.Patrick Southern
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 11:43:38 pm

"The Secret Tapes of the O.J. Case" had Optimized media for almost everything. Due to the cost of storage once we got the SHARESTATION, we did not Optimize all 10,000+ clips. We did have a lot of photos and a lot of variation in sources. We also had 4K & 5K footage that we were running across a 1 Gbps Ethernet connection. When we finally rented a 10 Gbps Ethernet to Thunderbolt adapter, it became less of an issue.

Then we used Optical Flow on a lot of our footage that didn't meet the project's frame rate and used Neat Video on nearly every single one of our archival clips.

So there was a lot going against us in terms of system efficiency. David and I are now onto another project. Everything has been made into Optimized and Proxy media, we have far fewer clips, and everything seems to be running just fine.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 12:10:42 am

[J.Patrick Southern] "So there was a lot going against us in terms of system efficiency. David and I are now onto another project. Everything has been made into Optimized and Proxy media, we have far fewer clips, and everything seems to be running just fine."

Thanks for the clarification. Yep, your media situation definitely would cause issues. Good to hear that X's offline/online workflow improves these issues.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 9:10:54 pm

[J.Patrick Southern] " used Neat Video on nearly every single one of our archival clips.
"


I really liked this program's ability to clean things up but did it slow things down for you Patrick?
It really worked my nerves when I worked with it.

In my doc I cut in 10 min sections and when I was almost done I strung all sections together (108 min)

That's when it really got challenging for my older Mac.

Did you guys work in sections in the timeline or just string it all together from the start?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 12:30:22 am

[Bill Davis] "Seems to me the big win in the article is centered on X's agile organization system and how that helped them sort and access a big, very complex array of project elements. "

but on a certain level doesn't that make X, as is, the smaller part of the larger editing system Ubillos had in mind when he walked into the jobs meeting? It's already stated Steve Jobs was looking at magnetic style basic elements intended for their earlier version of adobe prelude at the meeting, including the early tagging skimming stuff. At some point Ubillos should feel free to say what he saw as the editing system he had in mind out of those initial pieces. Because he definitely never got to build the editing eco-system he intended to build. Not if the Jobs meeting is true. Which it is.

FCPX is a malformed damaged child. Avid is the eternal moronic nappy emperor. And Premiere is a kind of tasty subscription hell.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 1:41:51 pm

[Bill Davis] " I still think the basic truth is do you want to hang on to where editing ideas have traditionally been - or do you see value in where those ideas might be going?"

The Mantra of X according to Bill.

There are many places where editing is "going" and X represents a slice of that - but not the entirety of it, not by a long shot.

I would suggest that before opining about where something is going it would help to have a clear understanding of the breadth of where it's been.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 5:18:14 pm

OK Herb, I'll play.

Hit me with the top few aspects of Premiere Pro that have changed edit workflow for you in the last 3 years.

I'm ready to learn about how they have altered their approach to re-imagine how editing should be improved for the current, almost exclusively file-based era.

I'm ready to learn.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 5:38:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm ready to learn about how they have altered their approach to re-imagine how editing should be improved for the current, almost exclusively file-based era."

Can we NOT? Not in this thread, at least. Because this topic is how it is used in DOCUMENTARY television, where yes, there is tapeless media, all the current interviews and b-roll, but a huge bulk of the work includes tape based footage...betaSP, S-VHS, all SD stuff. And the issues and solutions surrounding the need to capture that footage....and how to deal with getting digital stock footage (captured from tape) with TC burn, and replacing it with master stock footage, also tapeless.

Let's try to stick to the workflow issues posed in THIS field of work, as that is the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss tapeless only workflows and compare FCX to Premiere...please do that in another thread.

What I'd like to see is how one would solve the issues facing me in my workflows...as this app was used in my field, my area of editing.

How would one deal with replacing temp stock footage with window code (a source reel say 20 min in length) when you get master footage with matching code, but in 5-10 second chunks? Is there any way to replace that other than over-cutting like we do in every other NLE?

Stills...how would you deal with doing the moves on the stills that would translate to the finishing app? Well, that was covered in the article...and a solution given, so there's that. And I like how Oliver mentioned how Premiere solves that issue...and in a brilliant way, as I do most of my moves on stills in AE when I need to finish the show out-of-app.

How does the labelling of footage, keywording in ranges and all that, trump what Avid and Premiere does? Given the same prep time in all of them. I'm sure it does beat them...and Lumberjack helped GREATLY, as I saw.

But these are the issues I want to see discussed. THIS is the stuff that will convince me to make the switch. Not the "all tapeless" workflow, that I pretty much never ever see. Even in the reality shows I now cut, that are ALL shot tapeless, we still have stock footage that we integrate, still have tape masters because, yup, all the stuff I cut is still DOC based, and that means historical sources. Historical sources need a means of capture and input....

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 6:21:39 pm

[Shane Ross] "How would one deal with replacing temp stock footage with window code (a source reel say 20 min in length) when you get master footage with matching code, but in 5-10 second chunks? Is there any way to replace that other than over-cutting like we do in every other NLE?"

If you are using X or PPro *and* the stock footage contained audio you could try the following. When you get the temp stock footage make each clip a multicam clip and edit with it like that (multicam clips in PPro and X are basically nested sequences). When you get the master stock footage in, open up the corresponding multicam clip, drop the master on v2 (temp is on v1) use the sync by audio function to sync the master to the temp, then drop the master from v2 to v1.

Never done it quite like that but it should work.

I'm not sure if X has something like this, but if you are using the Pond5 extension in PPro you can automatically replace the proxy media from Pond5 with the master media. Obviously this only works with Pond5 footage.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 6:52:27 pm

Might be worth a shot.

Pond5 is RARELY the supplier in these cases. ABCNews, Getty, CBS...news sources. All news stock footage, not generic mountain valley or city stuff.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 7:17:43 pm

[Shane Ross] "Pond5 is RARELY the supplier in these cases. ABCNews, Getty, CBS...news sources. All news stock footage, not generic mountain valley or city stuff."

Right, just throwing it out there for the 'man going over spread sheet in cubical' crowd. ;)

It would be nice if more companies wrote plugins like Pond5's, but I can't imagine there's enough financial incentive in the historical/news stock footage section to do so.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 9:33:16 pm

[Shane Ross] "How would one deal with replacing temp stock footage with window code (a source reel say 20 min in length) when you get master footage with matching code, but in 5-10 second chunks? Is there any way to replace that other than over-cutting like we do in every other NLE?"

I'm curious of that strategy, too. X does have a nice way to tie things like website info to a clip in the timeline index. But actual replacing of media is tough. You pretty much have to overcut the offline clip with the online clip., since you are usually dealing with different formats, lengths and timecode. And for me, X has possibly the worst replace command of any NLE.

[Shane Ross] "Not the "all tapeless" workflow, that I pretty much never ever see. Even in the reality shows I now cut, that are ALL shot tapeless, we still have stock footage that we integrate, still have tape masters because, yup, all the stuff I cut is still DOC based, and that means historical sources"

Yep. Tapes. No way to deal with that very well in X. Pretty much have to capture externally and then deal with it as files in X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 8:33:37 pm

[Shane Ross] "Is there any way to replace that other than over-cutting like we do in every other NLE?"

So I just did a quick test. Imported a 20 sec ProRes clip of a finished spot, called "Blue". Put it on the timeline, aded a timecode generator and exported it as a 640x360 m4v file (simulating a viewing copy). Imported that file. Put in on a timeline.

I selected the m4v clip in the event browser and went to the relink clip dialogue. I relinked the clip to a second version of the original, called "red." Same spot, same length, just a different color scheme.

The m4v clip in the browser now had the new "red" audio and video, and the m4v clip in the timeline also updated to the "red" version. The name still said "m4 viewer."

Caveats here: must be the same length, must be the same frame rate.

So, Shane, the answer to the replace clip question is at least a partial "yes."
In the case of replacing the timecode viewer footage with select hi-res pulls, then no. Just as with any NLE. Because the pulls are different clips. If, on the other hand, you got the hi-res version from which the viewing copy was made, then it would seem to work, assuming the same length & frame rate.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 9:06:18 pm

[Jeff Markgraf] "Caveats here: must be the same length, must be the same frame rate."

That's the whole problem. They never are the same length. We will get 10 min to 30 min screeners with timecode burned in. On DVD, or a web download. And we then mine what we need from that...3 seconds here, 8 seconds there. So now we need to online and we have ten or so smaller chunks from that one, long QT file. It won't relink, so you need to over cut.

The test you did...that works in Avid too.

There was a great app from video toolshed that allowed me to relink smaller clips (in FCP 7) to bits from a larger one...CLOSE to the same idea, but not quite.

So, I'm just saying that's one feature I'd need to consider a switch...I need features that my current NLE doesn't have...that makes my life easier. Thus far, I haven't seen anything to make me want to make the big switch...other than the ability to work natively with some formats. That's a major step...but not quite enough.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 10:33:00 pm

[Shane Ross] "So, I'm just saying that's one feature I'd need to consider a switch"

Totally understand. Switching from Avid here in LaLa Land is a tough sell. At least for cutting shows.

That said, I really enjoy working in X these days. I've done promos, short comedy segments, a feature and a documentary on X in the last couple of years. It has its quirks, but I really find cutting in X to be fast and flexible. For "rough cuts" that need compositing (like anyone really does a rough cut any more - more like finished cut with temp graphics!) I find X infinitely faster than Avid.

Avid 8.4 (or whatever they're up to) has really tackled the file-based and large format problem. And I say good for them. It's been a long time coming. I could happily cut on Avid for years to come. But left to my own devices, I'm really digging X.

Someday, someone is going to crack the revise-and-replace nut. That will be a great day. Until then, over-cutting rules.


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Neil Goodman
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 2:30:12 pm

[Bill Davis] "Hit me with the top few aspects of Premiere Pro that have changed edit workflow for you in the last 3 years."

Pancakeing timelines is one way in which way they positively changed workflow for lots of people.

They were also the first to have edit anything, in any timeline natively which explicitly helped file based workflows.

Just two off the top of my head.


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James Ewart
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 3:00:38 pm

Not being able to tab between timelines or pancake is a big loss I feel.


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 4:45:09 pm

[Neil Goodman] "They were also the first to have edit anything, in any timeline natively which explicitly helped file based workflows."

I think (then) Sonic Founry's Vegas might deserve that title. It was the first NLE that I know of, which could natively play any audio, video or image format on the timeline that was supported by Windows.

Shawn



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Matthew Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 7:03:29 pm
Last Edited By Matthew Ross on Oct 1, 2015 at 3:14:01 pm

That’s the way I remember it. In fact, that’s the primary reason we bought into Vegas back in… oh, 2002 I think when it was still with Sonic Foundry before Sony bought it. For broadcast work we were using IMC InCite (anybody remember THAT program?), but we started having to do a lot of quick-turnaround web-bound projects where the sources were all over the map in terms of file format, resolution, frame rate, etc. As I recall, Vegas was the only NLE at the time that would take pretty much anything we threw at it without any additional fuss, and I liked elements that came from its DAW pedigree to boot.


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Darren Roark
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 12, 2015 at 9:18:29 pm

The slowdowns were mainly due to the limited storage speeds.

The server was hooked up via the gigabit ethernet ports on the iMac to the shared storage server as production didn't budget for 10GE. It worked impressively well considering the limited bandwidth of around 120mb r/w.

When I hooked my Mac Pro up via a 10GE thunderbolt box it was getting 800mb read and write. I didn't get any slowdowns even when exporting, I was able to work ahead on the next task while it was rendering without issue.

The slowdowns I did experience was when optical flow was enabled for the upscaling and frame rate conversion on the two hour long deposition tape clips as FCP X analyzes the entire clip regardless of how much you are using. The analysis files for one tape could reach 100GB! That had to be turned on before leaving for the night.


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Fabrizio D'Agnano
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 28, 2015 at 9:18:47 pm

I shoot and edit documentaries for a satellite TV channel here in Italy. My opinion is FCPX is just great at that. What I like best is the ability to use metadata to find, say, all the clips from my ten years archive containing a particular fish or a particular area once I've archived the clips with proper keywords and comments. Besides that, I also like FCPX as a fast and easy editor.

Fabrizio D'Agnano
Rome, Italy
early 2008 MacPro, BM Intensity Pro, early 2008 iMac, 2014 MacBook Pro Retina, Blackmagic UltraStudio Mini Monitor, FCP7, FCPX, OSX 10.9.4


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 1:05:46 am

For me the slowdowns are a big issue. I’ve got a feature-length doc that I’ve been working on. I originally inherited an FCP7 in-progress project, which I migrated to Premiere Pro. Based on this article, I thought maybe I’d give X another shot with it. So I converted the sequence to FCP7 XML (from Premiere) and then 7toX, which surprisingly came across completely intact. But the UI performance simply isn’t there.

This is a 95 minute timeline with mainly DV footage and scratch VO audio clips. When I compare the responsiveness of the timeline in Premiere versus X, it’s night and day. This is equally true on my older MP tower as well as the new rMBP. When I resize the timeline up or down or resize to fit, Premiere is instant. X has a lot of lag in every action. This is with the X timeline in the chicklet view and “hide waveforms” in the browser view. Very disappointing.

While the organization tools in X are wonderful, the actual performance in large timelines continues to hold it back. I find that once you get a timeline that's longer than about 10 minutes, the responsiveness gets a bit tedious. What are the workarounds to fix this?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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jon smitherton
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 2:02:49 am

I cut this 6 half hour doco series for Al Jazeera on 10.0.9 - 2 years ago:

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/wildlife-warzone/2013/09/20139171413593...

There were 62 shoot days - the biggest hassle was syncing to external audio - I did tell them to get a clap!

I did have the Library corrupt a few times - not too sure how it is now - though I'd thoroughly recommend buy Pro Versioner (http://www.digitalrebellion.com/proversioner/) as it saved my butt.

It is such a fast cutter - in/out wham! (insert, overwrite, overlay or place at end). I could do cuts (and notes, audio volumes etc) to the timeline while it was playing!
Try doing that on Avid, it just stops dead. The last few jobs I've done in Avid I'm sure I'm pushing 3 buttons to FCPX's 1. And that would compare to FCP7's 2 button push to do the same job.

Now all I wish is for market saturation so I can use it; I have been showing a lot of people that were disdained from the release, and all of them have been suitable impressed with some of it's features.

My tip is remember the shortcut shift-delete which is 'replace with gap' so you put a piece of black in when you delete a clip without the timeline assembling ala the magnetic timeline.

Cheers,
Jon.



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Eric Santiago
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 2:23:45 pm
Last Edited By Eric Santiago on Sep 29, 2015 at 2:24:59 pm


So I converted the sequence to FCP7 XML (from Premiere) and then 7toX, which surprisingly came across completely intact. But the UI performance simply isn’t there - Oliver Peters


Maybe its a conversion thing cause I too converted a FCP 7 project over to FCPX and it too was a little sluggish at the start.
New this was over a year ago and havent had to do that again, but I do have a massive feature on Premiere and will test that soon.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 4:28:28 pm

Things I took away from the article:

1) If you spend months keywording and organizing media, it's easy to sift through and find what you are looking for. TRUE...for most NLEs. Lots of places don't like to do this. But yes, having an assistant spend gobs of time organizing media, it'll be eaiser to find things. Now, the editor I know on this did say that searching for things was a lot easier than in other NLEs...and I do believe that. I do believe that FCX makes finding things easier across libraries than other NLES. But this also stresses the importance of organization, which is a big rallying cry of mine.

2) The need to OVERCUT master footage over temp timecoded footage still happens. No way to nicely link to the new footage, even if you modify the timecode to match. This would be a "killer app" in any NLE if they can manage to do it. Get a temp QT file....modify it's TC to match the burn in, give a source name...and when the master comes in with that TC, give it the same source and relink. That would save TONS of time. But...alas, the overcutting is still needed in FCX like it is in Avid and FCP Classic. This is one of the biggest things when it comes to doc cutting...so if FCX can do something to streamline this, I can see more converts.

3) Still moves don't translate to the finishing software. Which isn't new. So one needs to either do the moves differently, or render those moves out as stand alone files and reimport and all that takes time. That was one of the biggest issues in the last online I had, going from Avid to Resolve...SO MANY STILLS. Reading this I see that in FCX, the issue remained. This is something else that needs to be addressed as stills are a big part of documentary cutting.

4) No mention of Lower third titling and other texting needs, like subtitles and end credits. RESOLVE is a finishing app, one I barely know, I'll admit...so how well do titles transfer over? Credits? Credit rolls? How good of a job at titling is Resolve? A lot of reasons why people round trip is for this purpose...text. And building out various versions....seamless, textless at tail, etc.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 4:37:01 pm

[Shane Ross] "3) Still moves don't translate to the finishing software. Which isn't new. So one needs to either do the moves differently, or render those moves out as stand alone files and reimport and all that takes time. That was one of the biggest issues in the last online I had, going from Avid to Resolve...SO MANY STILLS. Reading this I see that in FCX, the issue remained. This is something else that needs to be addressed as stills are a big part of documentary cutting."

That's a strong point with Premiere. You have a render & replace function. This means you can do your move with a still or via AE and then replace this with a rendered media file. This is NOT a standard render file, rather it's a new piece of media that's created and imported into the project. It replaces the still (or AE comp) on the timeline. Through Adobe's XMP linking, you can still select the clip and "edit original" to go back and change or update it. Then replace again with separate media. So you get the best of both worlds and the timeline doesn't bog down.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 12:03:52 am

Having recently worked in resolve, I discovered that with v12 they have removed easing for position. However going from X to resolve preserves all moves perfectly. And now, right down to the lack of ease in/out.


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Tony West
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 3:06:31 pm

[Shane Ross] "1) If you spend months keywording and organizing media, it's easy to sift through and find what you are looking for."

I think this may be a little overstated Shane.

The way I did it was to organize in the finder first. I like to find elements outside of the program anyway.

Let's say photos, I would put all of Denise's photos into a folder called just that. Ray's Photos and so on.

I would import the folders into X and it would tag everything for me.

I found that I didn't really need to go through and label every photo individually. It wasn't necessary.

Even though I had thousands of elements I was never looking through more than 20 or so at a time.
You can get as detailed as you want to but I found that I didn't have to do that.

I have never worked on anything so big and I have never found things faster.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 4:39:40 pm

[Tony West] "I think this may be a little overstated Shane."

Approaches/needs vary by project but for OJ doc in question I don't think it's an overstatement. Even in the article, Patrick mentioned that the team initially underestimated the amount of keywords/organization they would need.

For an historical doc I'd say the minimum info is who, what, when, where, temp/master, rights holder and original file name/tracking number from vender.


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Tony West
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 8:26:59 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "For an historical doc I'd say the minimum info is who, what, when, where, temp/master, rights holder and original file name/tracking number from vender."

Thing is I just did a "historical" doc, and when I say historical, not an event that happened 20 years ago but 70 years ago thru current day.

Things like rights holder information on photos and clips and music is not necessary "inside" the NLE for me. Those are things that need to be organized in the finder. That information is important when it comes to who I owe money to, but when I'm cutting I just need to find the elements quickly.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 30, 2015 at 9:37:56 pm

[Tony West] "Things like rights holder information on photos and clips and music is not necessary "inside" the NLE for me. Those are things that need to be organized in the finder. That information is important when it comes to who I owe money to, but when I'm cutting I just need to find the elements quickly."

But isn't it easier to find out how much you owe to the various venders when you can easily create selects reels and/or a spreadsheet of all the clips in the timeline broken down by vender? I started using Producers Best Friend (aka Sequence Clip Reporter) years ago and it does in minutes what used to take me hours to do by hand. The more info that's kept just in the Finder or just in a spread sheet started by a producer means the less info a program like Producers Best Friend can automatically generate for me.

I'm used to working on projects though where the stock/historical media might be inventoried fairly often as opposed to just a few times near the end of the project. For example, on one TV show I was an assistant editor on it was almost a daily occurrence that the APs would need to see all media from Vender X in this episode or all media from Vender Y from that episode.

Even when cutting I find that info useful because inevitably I'll want search for footage w/o being limited to just folder style organization.


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Tony West
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 1, 2015 at 4:32:19 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I started using Producers Best Friend "

I have never used that program so I can't say, but most of my footage came from a site called critical past.

You can order format or frame rate to fit your timeline. Their search engine was whack but once you found whatever you were looking for it was really great quality. You could just download it.

I would use the temp footage from clips in the timeline to see how they cut and once I was sure, I replaced it with the real footage.

All my clip rights were stored as PDF files in separate folders. I like PDF files, I just like them.

It's a big deal to know who owns the rights for everything you use of course so I was really diligent about that.

It just wasn't information I needed in the timeline. I don't need to know if I paid "The Post-Dispatch" for the still I'm using while I'm cutting.

I don't even know if I'm going to use the photo or not. When the time comes to go to the public with your film you just need to have all your proof that you paid for everything where you can get your hands on it.

I stuck mostly with stills from the DOE, NRC or other government agencies. If it belonged to the government I knew I didn't have to pay for it.

News papers made me cough up the cash : )


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 5:23:41 pm

[Tony West] "I have never used that program so I can't say, but most of my footage came from a site called critical past."

I'll check out critical past. You can never have too many footage sites.


[Tony West] "I stuck mostly with stills from the DOE, NRC or other government agencies. If it belonged to the government I knew I didn't have to pay for it."

I try to use my already spent tax dollars effectively too! One thing that I have seen though is commercial stock footage/image sites taking material that is public domain and charging for it like they own the rights.


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Tony West
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 9:23:30 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "One thing that I have seen though is commercial stock footage/image sites taking material that is public domain and charging for it like they own the rights."

Yeah, I have seen that also. I think in some cases you are paying for the convenience. They feel like they did all the hard work of organizing and finding this stuff and they want to get paid for that.

I'm OK with it sometimes.

BTW I will be out your way screening the film Dec 3 at the Laemmle in Encino


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 10:03:46 pm

[Tony West] "BTW I will be out your way screening the film Dec 3 at the Laemmle in Encino"

Sweet, that's not too far from me. I put it on my calendar. Hopefully I'll be able to catch and we'll be able to shoot the breeze in person.


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Tony West
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 3, 2015 at 12:01:15 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Hopefully I'll be able to catch and we'll be able to shoot the breeze in person."

That would be awesome.

I don't know if you have been following the news out there lately with the Santa Susana site, but that's pretty much the topic of my film. It really couldn't be more timely. I picked that theater because it's close to that site and the former workers.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 3, 2015 at 1:30:58 am

[Tony West] "I don't know if you have been following the news out there lately with the Santa Susana site, but that's pretty much the topic of my film. It really couldn't be more timely. I picked that theater because it's close to that site and the former workers."

Oh, wow. I don't really know the history of it, but I do know the clean up is a hot button issue in the area. The people living by it obviously want it cleaned up but the surrounding 'hoods (including my own) are worried about the hazards of trucks hauling toxic dirt through the area for years on end.


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Tony West
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 3, 2015 at 2:31:26 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I do know the clean up is a hot button issue in the area."

Indeed, it's a hot button issue in many areas. I shot the film in St. Louis because I live here, but I could have easily told the same story in many states across the country.

I think you will find the film interesting Andrew and see our story in your story. I'm taking it to Dayton Ohio this weekend. Another area of the country I could have told the story in.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 4:29:00 pm

[Eric Santiago] "Maybe its a conversion thing cause I too converted a FCP 7 project over to FCPX and it too was a little sluggish at the start.
New this was over a year ago and havent had to do that again, but I do have a massive feature on Premiere and will test that soon.
"


Unfortunately all of my long projects have gone through some conversion or through several versions of X. Regardless of the machine I've been on, I have not been happy with the performance on a 90 min. timeline.

In the example I gave, using my rMBP (which is fast) and no media connected, going from several clips visible to the full timeline (shift+z) in the window takes about 4 sec. That's completely unacceptable. It's instant in Premiere or Media Composer or FCP "classic".

It's experiences like these that continue to make me nervous about X, because it's all great in the beginning. Once you get past the point of no return, the app gets very sluggish. The bottom line for me is that if the timeline isn't lightning fast in how it responds, no amount of super-duper organizational features make up for it.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 6:15:47 pm

OK...a friend of mine pointed this out to me...and it's a good point.

"The trouble with these sorts of articles is that they focus more on the fact that FCPX can edit features (with a whole bunch of third-party tools) but not so much on why it is better for this purpose than other NLEs. They seem aimed more at people already using it."

Good point. But there were advantages...

When I started using FCP 4.5 to cut these types of shows, rather than using Avid...I had valid reasons. I used FCP 4.5 because it did a whole lot of things better than Avid did...it solved issues I had with Avid:

1) I could capture 720p from DVCPRO HD Tape, at 23.98 (from the 59.94 stream) over firewire. Avid Adrenaline, at that time, didn't do 720p, only 1080i. And the only way to get the 720p footage into the system was via a terranex, and it would only come in at 29.97. I used FCP because it solved a huge expensive issue we had with Avid at that time.

2) I could capture the footage and work native...no offline/online needed. And no hardware for capture needed. Again, the previous show we cut that was DVCPRO HD 720p ran nearly $100,000 over budget in online due to Adrenaline not being able to do 720p.

3) Doing the moves on stills was easier and superior to how Avid did them. Retained quality, and the speed in which I could do the moves, and not needing Moving Picture...huge advantage.

4) During the editing process, the AJA Kona 3 came out and addressed an issue that we had (I happened to be in discussions with the product manager about this, as he was our consultant before we started production...before he went to AJA)...the issue of editing 720p 23.98 and needing to deliver 1080i29.97.


So when I made the switch to FCP from Avid...it was for a reason. it was to solve issues that Avid had. What I'd like to know is how did FCX solves issues that needed solving.

IN this case, the big one is keyword organization, and the ability to find footage fast. That is big...and that also required HUGE amounts of time on the AE's part, and the implementation of a third party tool. So there was one advantage. The other is the ability to work native with some of the formats, instead of needing to convert. THAT'S the stuff I like to see. How this can be used to solve issues. WHY it's better than the competition, under certain circumstances.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Brian Seegmiller
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Oct 2, 2015 at 6:41:12 pm

Back in the day when using photos in FCP7 the timeline was sluggish when using a lot of photos. I was told to make sure my photos were 72 dpi. Once changed to that dpi it was much faster. I think the same goes for other NLEs today.


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James Ewart
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 6:10:17 pm

[Eric Santiago] "I do have a massive feature on Premiere and will test that soon.
"


when you say "massive"??

Just curious.


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Eric Santiago
Re: FCP-X for documentaries (with details)
on Sep 29, 2015 at 7:11:45 pm

[James Ewart] "when you say "massive"??

Just curious.
"


Over 1100 RED clips and WAV.

The rough cut finally got under 2 hours :P


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