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An observation

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Oliver Peters
An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 3:27:24 pm

I work with a number of folks who are director/DPs and who occasionally edit their own projects. I've noticed that they tend to use FCPX as a scratch pad to work out temp ideas, but then go to Premiere Pro for the real edit. Part of this has to do with the fact that Premiere is more familiar as they used to use FCP7. They've only learned the basics of X and don't or can't invest the time to learn more than the initial drag & drop basic editing. I wonder of others see this same thing.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Warren Eig
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 4:20:32 pm

Here's my 2¢ on this Oliver.

I bought FCPX. I learned it. It's quick and fairly easy to use for projects that to me are geared towards sizzles or promos, bumpers, commercials etc., that type of project.

I tried to do some narrative work but unless you have assistants that can set up all the meta data/roles or you are Paramount Pictures and have someone setting up roles for dialogue, etc, I can't get past the no tracks for long form narrative. I started on a sync block at Roger Corman when I was 20 and that was basically tracks. Sure people will argue with me and I'll get flamed, but for me as a user, I want to spend time editing, not massaging the workflow or the program. I want to cut the scene with the most impact and don't want to have to concern myself with audio or clips jumping where I don't want them if I delete a clip.

Again, my 2¢. I like FCPX speed and real time. I just wish they had a preference to turn off Magnetic Timeline and use Tracks or turn it on and work in the new paradigm. Wouldn't that be nice.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.BabyBoomPictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html


For Camera Accessories - Monitors and Batteries
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Bill Davis
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 4:55:37 pm

Basically...

"I'm really good at how I've always edited"

"Can't be bothered to change that much."

"So I'll stick with what I know."

Which is ALL perfectly reasonable and perfectly rational and definitely gets the job done.

Other editors - particularly the young - without those decades of behavioral conditioning - will explore their options and decide for themselves whether or not the editing processes that have been in common use since us old timers were kids are still the best way to do things after nearly 50 years of progress and refinement in almost all the other areas of our lives.

Tracks are the mashed potatoes of the NLE world. Comforting.

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Warren Eig
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 5:22:49 pm

No not really. I knew there would be flames.

Have you ever had to deliver to Protools from FCPX on anything long? Cutting narrative is all about storytelling and crafting a scene. I use different editing muscles when cutting promos or commercials.

Not mashed potatoes not comfort, just more intuitive when you want to checkerboard dialogue.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.BabyBoomPictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html


For Camera Accessories - Monitors and Batteries
website: http://www.EigRig.com



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Andrew Kimery
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 5:43:52 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I wonder of others see this same thing."

Just in my casual observation I've seen a lot of director/DP types take to X and really like it because Legend, Avid, etc., always seemed overly complicated and obtuse for their needs.

[Bill Davis] "Other editors - particularly the young - without those decades of behavioral conditioning - will explore their options and decide for themselves whether or not the editing processes that have been in common use since us old timers were kids are still the best way to do things after nearly 50 years of progress and refinement in almost all the other areas of our lives."

FWIW, when X dropped I was working with a number of 20-something editors and all of them were pissed. FCP Legend was the NLE they grew up on, it was the only one they knew, and now it's done. Talk about losing a security blanket. I hoped it would be a wakeup call that change is inevitable so just go with it, but I know at least some of them are still just using FCP 7 and haven't taken a serious stab at learning X, PPro or Avid yet.

Not to rehash old talking points (who am I kidding, we love rehashing old talking points!) but if X had debuted with the features of 10.1 instead of 10.0 I think the reception would have been much warmer. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression though and, as you correctly point out Bill, ripples of that initial negatively still influence the perception of X by some people.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 6:41:41 pm

From what I've read here over time, it seems to me as if track-based editing is the grand piano, and trackless editing is the theramin. Just another lousy metaphor to consider...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 7:04:59 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "trackless editing is the theramin."

OMG, this forum has officially justified its entire existence.

Not that theremin operators can't be totally badass. If you ask me politely I MIGHT tell you why I have a folder of pictures of Jimmy Page playing the theremin...but I do in fact have a folder of pictures of Jimmy Page playing the theremin.







We could certainly add playing violin with a bow to this simile, but I think we can agree that, ultimately, Jimmy Page's badassitude derives from the theremin and bow being parts of a much larger skillset.

And wardrobe.


Signed, as I wrote in my junior high notebook oh so many times,

Mrs. Jimmy Page
Mrs. Jimmy Page
Mrs. Jimmy Page
Mrs. Jimmy Page
Mrs. Jimmy Page


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Bret Williams
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 12:32:14 am

I can one up you on that. My high school yearbook actually says "Jimmy Page" embossed on the cover. The form asked how you wanted your name to read on the cover so I put down Jimmy Page.

And if that wasn't cool enough, Pauley Perrette went to my high school.


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Tim Wilson
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 3:45:49 am

[Bret Williams] "I can one up you on that. My high school yearbook actually says "Jimmy Page" embossed on the cover. The form asked how you wanted your name to read on the cover so I put down Jimmy Page."

The coolest thing I have ever heard in my life. EVER.


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Bret Williams
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 3:57:59 am

Ha! Don't know if you're being facetious but since it's right here on the shelf...



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Tim Wilson
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 3:32:00 pm

[Bret Williams] "a! Don't know if you're being facetious but since it's right here on the shelf..."

Holy shit! Not facetious at ALL!!!

I confess that I slept through Zeppelin in the 70s (the nerds I ran with were all into prog LOL), but my then-girlfriend, now-wife turned me onto Zeppelin in the early 80s. And as my joke indicates, the conversion took. I wasn't kidding in the LEAST that I have a folder full of Jimmy Page theremin pictures.


Anyway, my wife skipped her prom to see them on the 77 tour, and is TOTALLY a Jimmy Page fan, no respect at all for the Plant crowd. LOL That said, her favorite guitarist is Pete Townshend -- she played a Gibson Les Paul Junior like the one Pete used on Who's Next, and she has plenty of love for Roger Daltrey.

We started dating because of a shared love of music. Her taste was much cooler than mine of course, but 32 years later, we're still rock and rolling together.

When I told her about your yearbook last night, she howled. We were both pretty straight-laced (her Pete Townshend-Jimmy Page fixation notwithstanding) and neither one of us could imagine having the balls, OR the WIT, to do something like this in high school.

I just showed her this picture picture just now and she HOWLED. She agrees -- coolest thing ever.

Dude, you're my hero. Thanks for showing me this!


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Jim Wiseman
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 10:15:19 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Sep 25, 2015 at 10:16:38 pm

I saw the Yardbirds in late '67 or early '68 at the gym at Washignton U. in St. Louis where I was pre-med about to degenerate to Art History, for which I am eternally grateful. If you can believe it, they were opening for Ramsey Lewis of "In Crowd" fame. Frat boys loved him. Not positive who Yardbirds lead guitar lineup was then, but it was at least two of the greats. Made up my mind there and then that R&R was my future and not General Practice. Absolutely mind blowing.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Bret Williams
Re: An observation
on Sep 26, 2015 at 5:56:35 am

Jimmy Page would have been the sole guitarist by then. Pretty cool.


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Oliver Peters
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 7:14:49 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "track-based editing is the grand piano, and trackless editing is the theramin"

I am sooooo stealin' that!

;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 8:09:58 pm

Feel free to claim it as your own, Oliver! A man appeared to me on a flaming pie and suggested it, so it's not really mine...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Steve Connor
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 8:49:45 pm

We need a forum name change "Apple FCPX - The Metaphors?"


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David Mathis
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 6:56:40 pm

[Steve Connor] "We need a forum name change "Apple FCPX - The Metaphors?""

Zing! You get the Post of The Week award!

The magnetic timeline, it's magnetic-o-matic!



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Bill Davis
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 9:45:26 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 24, 2015 at 9:47:18 pm

Curious, Joe as to why you feel something as obscure as the Therimin (a thing so unusual that my dictionary INSISTS I'm trying to type "The ramen!) is a good analogy.

80% of the way anyone edited in 7 they still do in X. It's just the 20% of highly leveragable thinking like keyword ranges and magnetic operation that makes it different.

I'd say grand piano verses an electronic keyboard is a MUCH fairer analogy.

Oddly, I have a friend who is a touring keyboard tech with huge Rock Shows. The first thing his team does when a performer needs a Grand Piano on stage is to buy one - rip out its guts - including the keyboard - and put in a modern electronic unit with piano samples. It's dumb to move and constantly try to keep the older mechanical tech in tune on the road. ; )

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:38:31 pm

Bill -

I was only using the Theremin in terms of the technique in playing it: the grand piano of course has 88 keys, and the theramin, in essence, has one key. I was equating the multiple tracks in a "normal" NLE (notice normal in quotes, no aspersions cast), as opposed to the theremin: single "key", as many notes as you want. As a matter of fact, the Theremin, since it has no keys, per se, has the ability to play an infinite number of notes, and the pitch generated is based upon the hand's distance from the antenna (no contact at all with the instrument).

I was a professional musician for many years, and it is very interesting how that field has changed. When electronic synths first came into being, the musicians union banned their use at union gigs, because the synth had the potential to put many analogue musicians out of work (horn and string players especially). There are many pianists these days who still insist on fully acoustic pianos - for example, Paul McCartney (not that he's a pianist, but he's pretty good on the piano) uses Yamaha Grands on tour and in the studio. Just as with NLEs, one's choice of tool is purely dependent on their preferences. There just is no right or wrong choice, whether you started out cutting film, or learning FCPX.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Bill Davis
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 7:51:24 am

I still bet dollars to donuts McCartneys Yamaha Grands have synths burried inside.

In fact when I saw Elton Johns Red Piano show in Vegas years ago, IIRC it wasn't a huge Yamaha logo on the side (the sponsor I'd expect) it was either Kimball or Baldwin that night. Elton was doing shows to give Celine Dion a break and I suspect Ceasars Forum had some deal that trumped the existing sponsorship deal perhaps?

Plenty of high end sample-based keyboards have excellent touch - and unlike packing and shipping an actual string instrument on tour you don't need to pay and pray for a tuner to get it right at every stop as the instrument faces huge variations of temp and humidity on a cross country truck show.

I don't think it makes logistics sense to do otherwise.

For what it's worth.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 9:55:48 pm

Yamaha has been researching synths at least since the early '70's. When I was at CalArts 70-72 they had a couple of engineers there stealing ideas from the Buchla and Moog synthesizers at the School of Music there. That being said, they still make awesome traditional Grand pianos.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Jim Wiseman
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:10:51 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:11:34 pm

Funny, Andrew, I feel a kinship with those 20 somethings who had just gotten into FCP7 only to have it dropped by Apple. Adrift. Just like I felt after heavily getting into Premiere Pro CS6 only to have Adobe drop the "rent or your projects disappear" bomb on us. Pay for as long as you want to be able to edit, or gone as soon as you stop. I can only describe it as a sense of betrayal given the change of approach I had to take to avoid it. Not to mention the waste of time and money purchasing CS packages and learning them for years. I also don't think people now in high school or early in their college years will have the problem with FCPX that those who had already learned the earlier paradigm might have had. It is all new to them.

Like those 20 somethings, I have gone back to my other NLE's as a stop gap, but fully intend to replace them with FCPX as soon as I am competent in it, which should be shortly. There is a wealth of excellent training out there, and I have acquired it and am feeling quite comfortable with FCP. About to enter into several years of documentary projects that would have probably been done on Premiere. Very happy that FCPX is available and is doing what I need it to do in an enjoyable way. It is well suited to that type of production.

BTW, we are talking about editing systems, NLE's, not pianos or theramins or automobiles. These comparisons seem rather childish to me, but I will throw one last one out there.

When I open my garage, I want the car to be there, paid for, and not repossessed by the leasing company.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Oliver Peters
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:22:49 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "I have gone back to my other NLE's as a stop gap, but fully intend to replace them with FCPX as soon as I am competent in it, which should be shortly. "

I'm not trying to be flip or offensive when I ask this, but if X is so intuitive or easy, why aren't you that proficient already? It seems like that's the heart of this observation.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:24:43 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not trying to be flip or offensive when I ask this, but if X is so intuitive or easy, why aren't you that proficient already? It seems like that's the heart of this observation."

Learning anything takes time and Jim doesn't want to cut into his 'complaining about Adobe' time too much. ;)


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Jim Wiseman
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:30:15 pm

I only started to apply myself to it about a month ago. I sure as heck didn't learn Media Composer in a month of my spare time. It is also a lot deeper than it first appears. And sorry, I'm only trying to keep up with the FCPX detractors. Pretty thick around here.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Jim Wiseman
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:43:25 pm

Adobe: Love the software, dislike the business model. Does not work for me. YMMV. Thought I made that clear.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Andrew Kimery
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:47:53 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Thought I made that clear."

You have. Many, many... many times. Hence my jest that you'd be further along with X if you spent less time telling people your feelings about Adobe. :)


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Jim Wiseman
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 1:27:19 am

Guilty as charged. We'd probably all be further along at something if we didn't go over the same subjects endlessly on web forums! I see a lot of repetition by just about everyone, especially on the debate boards. Maybe a little more time on Techniques...

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Andrew Kimery
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 1:41:34 am

[Jim Wiseman] "We'd probably all be further along at something if we didn't go over the same subjects endlessly on web forums!"

Probably!


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Gary Huff
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 2:20:36 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Adobe: Love the software, dislike the business model. Does not work for me. YMMV. Thought I made that clear."

You always do...after making a not so subtle bash against people who are fine with the model.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 3:27:00 am

Nothing personal coming from me. I just think software rental is an extremely bad trend. You are entitled to your own opinion and I am free to ignore it, Gary. You're the one who always seems to get personal. That's all from here regarding that.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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David Roth Weiss
Re: An observation
on Oct 1, 2015 at 8:01:11 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Adobe: Love the software, dislike the business model. Does not work for me. YMMV. Thought I made that clear."

Jim,

If you really love the software you're simply shooting yourself in the foot.

Get over it man, $50 a month is chicken feed. Time is money, and you're frittering it away by grousing here and taking the time to learning a silly new way to edit instead of just making money.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: An observation
on Oct 2, 2015 at 1:01:25 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Oct 2, 2015 at 1:03:44 am

Not if you are planning on spending your semi-retirement on non paying projects. Which I have been doing for the last few days without having to think about inane comments like yours, David. Go ahead and be a sap for a system that keeps you in fealty for the rest of your life. I'll stick with products like FCPX, Resolve, and even Media 100 to always have access to my projects. That took exactly one minute out of my work day.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.2, Final Cut Studio 2 & 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC: 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro Retina 2015, i7, 500GB, M370X 2GB: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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Oliver Peters
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 7:14:09 pm

[Bill Davis] "Other editors - particularly the young - without those decades of behavioral conditioning - will explore their options and decide for themselves"

Hmm.. I actually see more older editors adapting to it than younger editors. In the original observation, it was younger colleagues.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mitch Ives
Re: An observation
on Sep 28, 2015 at 5:24:26 pm

First of all, who you calling an old-timer Bill? :-)

Tracks may be comforting, but they are also damned useful on certain types of projects. Now I realize that I was too proficient in 7... I didn't need a magnetic timeline to avoid screwing things up. So, I admit that those who I routinely watched screwing things up probably welcomed the trackless, magnetic timeline with open arms. I'm okay with that. What bothers me is when I see people who I know damn good and well never edited the types of projects where tracks are a godsend, telling all of us that tracks are crap and unnecessary. I especially appreciate when I being told that I'm a dinosaur because I understand the value of tracks.

I have no axe to grind with the trackless environment... I'm fine with it. And even though I didn't need it, I can appreciate the magnetic timeline. I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is the condescending comments I keep having to read. If I can appreciate someone elses view, why can't they be enlightened enough to appreciate mine?

So I'm fine with everyone here. What I'm not fine with is waiting years for Apple to fix things that should not have been broken in the release, let alone several releases ago...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Bill Davis
Re: An observation
on Sep 28, 2015 at 7:35:42 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 28, 2015 at 7:36:52 pm

Calm down Mitch.

Don't be like the religious victim thinkers who run around yelling about how their faith is "under attack" when you can't drive 5 miles in any city in the US without passing a couple of houses of worship. And every possible sub faith and sect has representation everywhere.

Every NLE had tracks for the first 20 years. 7 of the top 8 NLEs have them now. And nobody wants to take yours away. Want tracks? You can have them for $600 a year. Simple.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Mitch Ives
Re: An observation
on Sep 28, 2015 at 7:44:35 pm

Priceless Bill. You managed to completely miss my message.

If this video thing doesn't work out for you, go to work for Apple in the marketing department. I'm sure they'll appreciate your approach of chasing people to other products...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Steve Connor
Re: An observation
on Sep 28, 2015 at 8:28:50 pm

[Bill Davis] "Calm down Mitch.

Don't be like the religious victim thinkers who run around yelling about how their faith is "under attack" "


That made me laugh for reasons of irony :)


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Bill Davis
Re: An observation
on Sep 28, 2015 at 8:48:24 pm

I just tell an editor that if he wants tracks, he should use one of the many track based alternatives - and I take another hit hit for being the super X partisan.

Plenty of irony to pass around these days.

"Doesn't matter how many good things this thing has...If it doesn't have the things *I* want ... all I'll do is bitch..."

Goodbye half full/half empty. It's the era of find the flaw - press your nose against it - and then go on line and RAGE about how bad life is cuz it comes with flaws.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's the current broadcast news / political talk model, isn't it?

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 7:12:36 pm

[Warren Eig] "t's quick and fairly easy to use for projects that to me are geared towards sizzles or promos, bumpers, commercials etc., that type of project.
I tried to do some narrative work but unless you have assistants that can set up all the meta data/roles or you are Paramount Pictures and have someone setting up roles for dialogue, etc,"


Interesting. I actually find the opposite to be true for me. Obviously different things work or don't work for each's different approach. For me, I like it for narrative and documentary-style stuff, but dislike it for anything requiring rapid, rhythmic cutting.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 7:49:54 pm

So far the gist I'm getting is that not everyone works the same way so one man's steak might be another man's cardboard.


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Michael Gissing
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:27:31 pm
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:28:16 pm

[Andrew Kimery]"So far the gist I'm getting is that not everyone works the same way so one man's steak might be another man's cardboard."

Mashed potatoes, steak & cardboard. Please lets not go to food metaphors. Cars, guitars & theramins are bad enough but why risk the wrath of vegan or paleo editors. They are even more rusted onto crazy ideas than many on this forum.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: An observation
on Sep 24, 2015 at 11:41:03 pm

I sure wouldn't want to eat a cheese steak and edit at the same time! :>)

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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Claude Lyneis
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 4:24:28 am

Here is my observation. I like the Johnny Carson playing the theremin better.




Also, it appears that both FCPX and PP can be used to edit and these discussions verge on "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin." I had to edit a fast cut commercial to music and after checking out the appropriate Mac Break Studio tutorial, it was really fast.


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Eric Santiago
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 12:18:39 pm
Last Edited By Eric Santiago on Sep 25, 2015 at 12:19:04 pm

To date I am still having way too many issues with Premiere to consider it for any major work.
When I first started using it my wants/needs were few and it served me well.
It started on a Mac then ended on my PC with the Perception PVR.
Now revisiting it in full capacity has had me hating it day by day.
Damn you Apple and Avid for ruining a once simple mind (mine of course)!
LOL!


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Oliver Peters
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 12:59:14 pm

Got to love this forum. Where else can you go from talking about NLEs to Johnny Carson playing the Theremin?!

Maybe Tim should rename it "6 Degrees of FCPX".

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tony West
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 2:39:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] " I wonder of others see this same thing."

I haven't really seen much of that. The people I see are all in on whatever NLE they chose.

Not a lot of hoping around and back and fourth.

The folks that I see on X are older and more established editors with a firm grip on their client base.
The young folks I see use whatever they were on in college.

To me it would seem like a pain to start in one program and then transfer to another. I wouldn't want to do that personally. Seems like too much work.


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Steve Connor
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 2:47:21 pm

[Tony West] "The folks that I see on X are older and more established editors with a firm grip on their client base.
The young folks I see use whatever they were on in college.

To me it would seem like a pain to start in one program and then transfer to another. I wouldn't want to do that personally. Seems like too much work."


I know several Camera Ops of varying ages who are using it, some of which have never edited before and at least 5 of my Production Company clients are using it without any encouragement from me, all of them used FCP7 previously.


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Tony West
Re: An observation
on Sep 25, 2015 at 3:17:11 pm

[Steve Connor] "I know several Camera Ops of varying ages who are using it, some of which have never edited before "

Oh I don't doubt that at all Steve, in fact I'm surprised I don't see even more of that here.

I think it's a great tool for a lot of people and I tell folks that but I was also giving the lay of the land in my area.


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: An observation
on Sep 27, 2015 at 3:05:13 pm

I actually recommend FCP X to directors who wish to edit.

For someone unfamiliar with the actual interfaces, FCP 7, Avid, Premiere Pro, ask too many questions and create too many barriers before one can even edit one shot. Project settings, user settings, sequence settings, bins, media folders, project folders, media locations make the process complex for a director, who's not a novice as far as film-making goes, but unfamiliar with NLE interfaces.

With FCP X, for, say a docu shot on a C300 or DSLR, the director simply starts a new event, drags media, scrubs through shots, and assembles a narrative. Everything stays in sync always, and there's sufficient support for XML and conversion of XMLs so that his edit can translate to something else, even Avid. And everything gets saved to one place, its all saved all the time.

I do agree that, at least if they wish to keep the 'Pro' in the name, there should be a provision to switch off the magnetic timeline, and to have some kind of a 'track' methodology.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Ryan Holmes
Re: An observation
on Sep 30, 2015 at 1:15:03 am

[Neil Sadwelkar] "I do agree that, at least if they wish to keep the 'Pro' in the name, there should be a provision to switch off the magnetic timeline, and to have some kind of a 'track' methodology."

If you do a "Lift from Storyline" with your selected clips it breaks them out of the magnetic timeline structure. It's basically like a track based editor without the clip collisions at that point. I should emphasis that doing this is "basically like" a track-based editor, but it's not "exactly like" a track-based editor, especially if you're getting audio heavy with music, sound fx, dialogue and you need to get that out to another program for finishing.

I was at a FCPX event at an Apple store in Dallas last week where the FCPX certified guru was showing this "Lift from Storyline" as his primary workflow on projects. Most of the editors in the room (including myself) were Premiere Pro users. I believe, he was arguing that FCPX is a clip based editor and therefore more visual and fluid than the other track-based editors when using either the magnetic timeline or the "Lift from Storyline" approach. All that to say, I'm still a Premiere user... :-) But I just wanted to be fair to X saying that it could work track-esque (track light?) if you want it to Neil.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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